Hey there, it's Tim Vegas. This is thinking cluesive. How do you feel about going around barefoot? All the time? If you were to ask me eight months ago, I would have said, I don't think I could do it. Now I feel differently. And our guest this week knows something about going barefoot. He was inspired to ditch the shoes after participating in the Barefoot autism challenge. Learn more right after a short break.
Welcome back to Think inclusive where every week we bring you conversations about inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. This week, we are talking about running and walking. Now what does this have to do with inclusion? Well, our guest Ken Posner, is an experienced runner with 106 marathon and Ultras completed, including record setting runs on the 350 mile long path. And for the 292 mile Badwater double. He lives in New York's Hudson Valley and works in corporate planning for one of the nation's leading mortgage servicers. He is a passionate advocate for the therapeutic benefits of natural stimulation and mindfulness particularly through the practice of going barefoot, as he did with the Barefoot autism challenge. Although he's not a professional runner, Ken's got a fervor for barefoot running, and the energy and the joy that it offers has led him to adopt it as a lifestyle choice. With an awareness of neurodiversity and its intersections with physical activities. He champions the experience of going barefoot for both neurotypical and neuro divergent individuals, emphasizing the grounding and process enhancing aspects it offers. Before we get to the interview, I want to tell you about Bookshare are your students reading below grade level? Do they struggle to read due to a learning difference like dyslexia, visual impairments or physical disabilities. Bookshare is a free ebook library that makes reading and learning easier designed for students with learning differences. Bookshare lets students read in ways that work for them with ebooks in easy to read formats. Students can access millions of titles including textbooks, educational materials, and popular titles like Harry Potter and Percy Jackson. Students read with free reading tools on the devices that they have access to at home or school. They can listen to words read aloud, follow along with highlighted text, read in large font or Braille and customize their reading experience. Bookshare is 100% free for all us students with qualifying disabilities and schools through funding from the US Department of Education Office of Special Education Programs sign up today@bookshare.org That's bookshare.org And now, my interview with Ken Posner, and for free time this week, I'm taking you to the trailer park.
You Ken Posner, welcome to the think conclusive podcast.
Thank you, Tim. I'm delighted to be here.
So can you brought to my attention, something called the autism barefoot challenge? Did you just tell us a little bit about that? And let's let's start there.
Sure, Tim. The barefoot autism challenge is the idea of a fella named Tyler Leach, who lives in Iowa and he is an individual with autism. And he observed that, in many cases, autistic people including himself
I enjoy going barefoot, in prefer to go barefoot. And it's for the natural stimulation, in the sense of grounding, it helps them process information about their environment, and feel more confident. So the challenge is very simple. It's just the idea that you would go somewhere barefoot for the experience, and then post a picture or a video on on the Facebook page. And by doing that show, support and advocacy for the Autistic community. Because you're both experiencing something that's, that's important, or maybe important to them. And you're also showing other people, Hey, I'm going to do something that's a little different. But I'm going to do it because it matters to this group of people who prefer to be barefoot.
And is, is going barefoot, something that you do normally.
Now it is but it wasn't before. The challenge. Now I had Tim I had started a little bit of barefoot running a few years ago. Just to you know, improve my life. For me. It's something that, you know, obviously Chris McDougall wrote the best seller Born to Run, advocating for that, and some coaches recommended it. And I thought to myself, as a runner, I should do a little bit of barefoot running, just to ensure that my form is good. But then it was so much fun that over time, I lost interest in running shoes in started hiking, barefoot, but I always thought of barefoot is, you know, an athletic endeavor, like, you know, running or hiking it and then when I heard about the challenge in Tyler, leeches idea, I was like, Huh, you know, I could just walk somewhere, I could go to the grocery store, or a coffee shop. Right. And so once I started doing that, for the challenge, I realized that Tyler was absolutely right. Just going barefoot anywhere. You don't have to run you don't have to hike. It's not necessarily about cardio benefits, but that natural stimulation and just feeling the ground is incredibly well grounded. So now I go barefoot, everywhere in unless his shoes are required in you know, and or it's not safe due to cold or, or hot temperatures.
Right? When I've floated this idea before. So, you know, Ken and I have had a conversation before this conversation that's being recorded, you know, about barefoot running and about just going around barefoot? And I think I was telling someone about our conversation. And they were like, well, doesn't that hurt? Doesn't like, like, that's usually, I don't know, if you if when you tell people that you go around barefoot, like what the common responses, but I would imagine they'd be like, oh, you know, like, I could never do that or, you know, would hurt too much or something like that.
So, you know, it's interesting, Tim, the responses are all over the map. Now. There's a lot of people who have the same reaction that I have, because I remember I remember when this may have been 10 or 12 years ago, I was just running in the park in shoes. And I saw a man and his daughter running barefoot. And it was like, wow, it made an impression on me because I thought that, wow, that's so natural. And they look so self reliant, and so relaxed, and confident being themselves. I just thought it was really cool. So I would say most of the time when I'm out on the trails, or running people think it's cool, because it's natural, natural is cool. And so generally I get positive feedback. Now, some people are startled. And you know, they've been told you have to wear supportive running shoes, you have to wear hiking boots, if they see somebody without and they have no understanding that you know, in days gone by everybody went barefoot before shoes were widely available. So they freaked out a little bit you and I get comments sometimes like well, I couldn't even go barefoot in my bathroom. Is you know that's not good, but I don't say anything. But then there's a third category to Tim. Some people get really triggered. And I'm not sure exactly why I was in a coffee shop in Williamstown, Massachusetts. And the proprietor came out, and he was just so angry, and so rude, and confrontational. You know, I promised not to ever go back to that coffee shop again. But I don't know what I guess he must have a sense that, you know, good people wear shoes, and anybody who's not doing that as a troublemaker. So I felt like, you know, I'm not exactly a teenager, and you know, but, but I imagined, that's how, you know, he would yell at some teenager, he didn't like coming into his coffee shop. So those are that that's the range of reactions and because you know, Bearfoots unusual in today's world, you are going to generate some reactions from people.
So, I, I have more questions, but I also am aware that some people are probably wondering, like, why are you talking to this guy? Can?
That's a fair question.
So and the reason why is, you know, Ken actually emailed me and said, Hey, I've got some really cool information about this autism barefoot challenge. And, and so, as sometimes I have, like conversations before booking a guest, and I was just so enthralled by the information that Ken had to offer, you know, you know, Ken, it's not like you're a professional runner, or it's not like, you know, this is your job, you have you have a day job, you know, but it was just so fascinating to me, and such a really interesting conversation. And anyone who's listened to me for I don't know, however many years knows that I run. And that's an interesting, you know, that's interesting to me. But I, I wanted to bring Ken on, because I think you have a really interesting perspective, about running and about how it's connected to you, neurodiversity. So I just want to, you know, tell people, and be like, you know, this isn't Tim's typical guests, but I think that it really doesn't fit in with what we're trying to do, which is, have people really think differently about people who are different, right, and more, you know, have this more acceptance and, and, you know, open our minds in our world to maybe something that is a little bit different. It's and bear in walking barefoot is different, you know, like, as you were talking about, you know, this coffee shop thing, I would imagine that some beat somebody is like, well, that's just not sanitary, I like but that's what I've heard, you know, like, if you walk around barefoot, you know, like, like in a dirty hotel room or like, in a dirty, you know, sidewalk or whatever, that somehow it's not healthy for you to walk around. Perfect. Have you ever heard that?
Well, for sure, for sure. And nobody's ever told that to me, but I've read articles and things where people raise concerns. And you know, it's interesting, Tim. sanitation and hygiene are really important. And it made our world a much better place. But you can overdo things, too. So, you know, the question is, you know, from us a hygiene perspective, if you're walking around barefoot, you could be tracking dirt, but so are people in shoes. Right? So in terms of tracking dirty, there's no difference. And then you know, if you if you get dirty you you can wash them. So you know, I'm I think it's hard for me to understand what would be the risk that you've got to pay attention and you are taking responsibility on yourself. The hazards that I'm concerned about are, you know, the sheet or cold, or, you know, the dreaded broken glass. But part of the practice of going barefoot is paying attention. And when you write attention, you don't step on things that you should write.
Right, exactly. So I did briefly mentioned, neurodiversity. You know, in our conversation, I'm wondering, from your perspective, like what does walking barefoot have to do with neuro diversity?
Well, Tim, you know, at the first level, it may not have anything to do with neuro diversity because you know, Back in the day, it pretty much everybody went barefoot, whether they were neuro typical or neurodiverse. Because shoes, you know, they may have been invented and people may have had moccasins and sandals, but maybe not everybody had them. But what I think's interesting in this case is the fact that Tyler Leach, who's an individual with autism, raised his hand and said, Hey, natural stimulation is important to me. And in what his point is that autistic people sometimes process information or process sensations differently from other people. And therefore they may be struggling to get more stimulation or less stimulation, but the stimulation, the natural stimulation of just going barefoot is helpful to him. And in tune by the way, the reason I reached out to you and to some others is when I participated in the Barefoot autism challenge, I realized that Tyler was right. And he had a very powerful statement to make here. So that the coming back to your question, the point I'd make is neurone. Typical people have an easier time fitting in, right, because they're typical, right, they're more willing, more, they're more the same as everybody else. And that's fine. But I think one of the elements of human life is that people can become so desirous of fitting in that they become very, very conformist. And I'm, I consider myself to be more of an independent person, and I'm less enamored of conformism, particularly when it doesn't make sense. So for example, you know, require me to wear shoes you'll find on the construction site, but it doesn't really matter anywhere else. And so the conformism can turn very hateful. And and I think it may be easier for people who are in some cases neurodivergent maybe they can't fit in, right, because they are so in some way. So obviously different from other people. And so maybe because they can't fit in, they don't try as hard, they're not as determined to be that perfect, typical person. And that gives them a little bit of freedom to say, hey, you know what, since I'm not trying to be the same as everybody else, I'm going to point out something that you guys are missing. So I think it from when I when I talk to people, I understand that barefoot is, in many cases, something that's popular among different neural diversion groups of people. And I think they may have just rediscovered, you know, a truth which is, as humans, we're animals, we need natural stimulation. And barefoot is a great free way to get some of that stimulation that are, you know, that are that neurotypical people in it in a very conformist mindset had are no longer you know, in many cases willing to even consider, which is a shame.
Yeah, I like the fact that barefoot, it seems to be a little, it's like definitely counter culture. I mean, the vast majority of kids used to do, yes, we, you know, I mean, if you if you go anywhere, people are wearing shoes, you know, and if you walk around barefoot, you're gonna stand out. And, and I think that anything that helps us maybe except, or understand somebody that's different. Anything that helps us do that better, I think is a good thing. And so So yeah, I, you know, I applaud you for you know, walking around barefoot and also for Tyler. And letting, letting us know that that's something that's important to them and, and then also just, you know, this idea of, of maybe feeling your world a little bit differently, I think that that's something to work, you know, worthy to explore as well.
Oh, for sure. I feel very strongly about that. And in this as a guest the link between running and barefoot. And I worry a little bit about the direction of the world I worry that people will retreat from the natural world and you end up retreating into the quote unquote matrix right through the digital world. And I don't know in the question is what Will we retain our humanity if we are just digital creatures? And I don't know the answer to that, I guess we'll find out in due course. But yeah, the, whether you just walk around barefoot or whether you go running, you're engaging with your world, in, its what I call the full Mind Body engagement. And I have a huge hunger for natural stimulation in full Mind Body engagement, and that's why I love running. And that's why barefoot to me barefoot is like free energy. And because it's just so much fun to Pat along on the different surfaces, and you sort of focus on what you're doing because you have to pay attention and the surfaces change. To me, that's, you know, a little extra free happiness that is the energy that I can use, you know, for the other things I have to do. So I feel very strongly about that. And again, you know, back to the people are like, I can't, I can't even go barefoot in my living room. You know, I'm like, that's a shame. You're missing out?
Yeah. Well, you're a runner. You know, I'm, I would consider myself a runner. Let's, let's talk about running for a little bit. What is it about running? Oh, you kind of have to explain a little bit. But like, Have you always been a runner? Did you? Did you like to run in high school college? Were you on track? Like, how did you start running?
Well, I started in high school, but I was I used to do fencing. That was my, my sport in high school. And the coach said, you know, can you ought to do some running just to you know, improve your your cardio vascular fitness, because, you know, along fencing match can be tiring, you know, you get out of breath. So I started doing a little bit of running, but initially I had really bad chronic shin splints, Tim. And eventually I went through and I got surgery to help. With the shin splints, I think today people understand back to barefoot, that the the newfangled running shoes with the big squishy soles and the big heels. For some people, those can trigger the shin splints. And so more of a zero drop or a barefoot style shoe, can alleviate those shin splints, without the need for surgery. But even so I got the surgery, it helps somebody who I got through the army that was before the surgery. And it was in the army that I developed, you know, a real appreciation for endurance because we did road barges, we did long runs. And I just, I felt that, you know, as hard and as they were, afterwards, I had a sense that, you know, I went out and did something, I earned the right to relax afterwards. So, I didn't really turn into a serious writer until my until I turned 40 I remember when I was a kid, I went to a karate camp and in somebody pointed at NFL and you know, with hushed voice and on on their voice, and they said that that man just turned 40 in for his 40th birthday. He ran 40 miles. And we were like, Oh, we didn't even know we had never heard of anything like that. We didn't think it was possible. So I forgot about that until I was 39 and a half. I was like I woke up one day I was like, Oh, I have to go run for him else. And I didn't actually do it until I was like 42 And that's when I got into ultra ultra running in so for the next 20 years I guess I've done a lot of long distance running. And I just love it I mean it's a huge source of energy for me and passion in my life. As I get a little bit older you were you know we were talking about driving and hips and knees and yeah as you get older you got to be even more careful about that stuff but running yeah is a very important part of my life for sure
yeah, I so I I was never a like an official runner. I was never on track. I played basketball in high school. And in college, I just ran for fun So, and this was I went to college in the late 90s. And, and so there weren't like iPods or anything like that. So, you know, I would just grab my grab my shoes, you know, and they weren't running shoes. Like I think at one point I was wearing like sambas like Adidas sambas, you know, there weren't, like, they weren't really meant for, you know, quote, a well, well had thought, you know, of like, you know, the running shoe or whatever. And I would just run off and take out and I honestly, I wouldn't even know how long I ran. I would just like, I'm running for X amount of minutes, you know, there weren't any smartwatches or, you know, fitness trackers. I mean, like, I think I ran four miles, I don't know exactly. You know, I actually remember taking my car and like, doing like the odometer and checking how far my route was. Just so we're doing. But I just remember it was, it was something that was meditative for me. And I really enjoyed the long distances. And it wasn't really about how fast I could run for five miles, it was just like that I that I did it and at the end, like you said, you'd like you felt like you did something, you know, like I, I ran, I ran five miles today, and it feels really, really good. You know? So yeah, I don't know if
Yeah, 1,000% on data, by the way, I ran my first marathon, just because I should say I started training for because I thought it would make me a better person. Now, this one was, you know, 25 years old, I had no idea what that was what I meant by that, but I think it does, because it teaches you self management. Because running requires, you know, it doesn't have to be hard, but it requires that little extra effort. And effort is always going to have a sensation of discomfort. Because that's how your body keeps you from, you know, running yourself the pieces. And so you have to manage yourself, you have to pace yourself hydration, nutrition, paying attention to joints, and muscles. So that ability to manage yourself. And if you start doing longer runs or races or whatever, you can have, you know, stressful, difficult environments, and the ability to manage yourself through a difficult environment is the key to being you know, the operator of view of your own mission. Right. Right. And, and I would add to the reason I've kept running, it's so self empowering. Because if you do a four mile run, or if you do 100 mile run, whatever it is, you get to the end of it, and you say I did it. And that's really the runner's high. People talk about in orphans and dopamine and all this sort of stuff, it doesn't really matter. In sometimes during the run, you have a feeling of flowing, which is nice. And sometimes during your run, you have a feeling of just heat and pain and being out of breath. Nothing fun. But the real one on site is when you get to the end, and you say I may not have been graceful, made awesome, as fast as I wanted. But I did it. I moved myself from point A to point B, I'm in charge of myself, I can manage myself. And then that's the real runner's high. And when you know when it's part of your life, the runner's high extends throughout your life, and gives you that that energy and joy confidence that just helps you, you know, helps you do more than maybe you would have otherwise.
There is often make this comparison to marathon or like long distance running to the inclusion journey, especially for individuals, teachers, school systems, because there's, there's a sense that in school systems, especially ones that we work with, with with MCIE II, that we want things to change rapidly that we want things to change quickly because there's a sense of urgency of we have learners with disabilities, who you know, should be included accepted, have a sense of belonging in in these schools, and we want it to change overnight. But it's it's just not possible. You can't do that. It's a it's a journey. It's a marathon. It's something that you have to train for. And not only that, but when you have gone through it, there's a sense of accomplishment and a sense of Have, that we've done the right thing. And it kind of just itself reinforces, you know, in the systems that we've worked with for for years. And they've been able to sustain the work, it's because it's because they see that it's working. And they see that there's benefits. Right? So, you know, I just wanted to connect that to for audience. That, yeah, Ken and I are talking about running. And we're, you know, we're talking about the benefits and stuff like that. But there's a lot of things in life that, you know, when you put in the effort, and you put in the work, and you get to the other side of it, you know, maybe you're not even done, but you already you get that sense of accomplishment and sense of that, that you've done something, you know, really cool.
Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting to me bring up, you know, the connection. And I'm a big believer that running is not something that you go out and do and then forget about it's part of your life. And it's part about training yourself to be a better person into to that you can make the world a better place. And so you draw the link between to the organizational situation where it's, you know, you'd like to organizations have missions, and it's life is always complicated. I have a corporate job, I serve on a couple boards for now, not for profits. And I think what another aspect of running that's helpful is it teaches, you know, what a lot of us called mindfulness, if you're going to do a long run, by the way, Pam Reed is a famous Ultra runner. And she just, she just ran the Badwater raise hard rock and western states, which are 300 mile race, his bed was 135 miles. So she did it in three weeks. And she's not, she's not young anymore. So that's an incredible accomplishment. She's one of the most distinguished ultra runners in recent history. But she is saying she says, When I set out to run 100 mile race, I don't run 100 mile race, and run a one mile race 100 times. So what she's saying is break the impossible, mind blowing goal down into small pieces and just focus on one piece at a time. So that's mindfulness is being in the moment, I was at the track the other day here in Dallas was 106 degrees, and I was trying to do intervals. So I just, you know, focused on one lap at a time, and sometimes just little parts of the lap. But back to you know, schools and organizations. I think that's the right attitude. You can't change organization overnight. I'm this this mode of board of an organization and we're struggling with the DEI question. And we're not going to change anything overnight. That's for sure. But we could take a step forward. Right? So let's focus on just one step. So the board is next week probably going to form a dei committee to do more work. And that's a first step, right? So one step at a time, that's what you learn running, or hiking or walking in, you know, I feel like life, you can take one step a little bit to the left. Or you could take one step a little bit to the right. And that's it, that's life, and then repeat, hopefully, for many steps. So I think that's part of the connection between the philosophy of running or the mindset of running and how we try to make progress with these these tough issues in society.
So can we talked a lot about running and we talked a lot about, you know, our both of our experiences. But I want to bring us back to, you know, why you think it's important for us to learn from people, you know, who think differently, you know, who are different than maybe, you know, the typical or the mainstream?
Well, sure, Tim, and I've got some very pragmatic answers, you know, sometimes, you know, I'm talking with people and we have the same point of view. Well, it's boring, right? Because we agree with on everything. And it's nice when you find people who share values and thoughts, but you're not learning anything new. In so we need to have a diversity of views, right? The Yale scholar Irving Janis wrote about groupthink. That's when everybody sits around and says, Yes, we all think that's right. And if they're wrong, then everybody gets surprised, and an individual and organization fails or, you know, or suffers a disappointment or a failure that maybe somebody would have recognized otherwise. So I think that's that's one reason it I'll go back, you know, I mentioned again, Tyler, which is barefoot autism challenge, you know, here's somebody who is a little bit different from the neurotypical person, and he raises his hand and says, Hey, barefoot provides the infill stimulation, it's fun, I enjoy, it helps me process my surroundings. And that should be true for everybody. But a lot of folks being have a more conformist mindset have lost that idea. So somebody who's a little different reminds us of something that we're at risk of missing. I've also, you know, this is another pragmatic reason. And, you know, this is why most modern companies support diversity is they want, you know, they want the best people, they want productive people, if you can help somebody access a facility, you know, maybe they're in a wheelchair, but they might be able to make incredible contributions, once they are able to be in the facility. So that's another common sense, pragmatic reason. But I'll add one more. I mean, I served for a very brief period in the army many years ago, but you know, I remember a little bit of the ethos, we've all heard this, leave no man behind, or leave no fleet, no person behind. And so you know, that in today's world, we're very generally on average, very prosperous. If somebody is struggling, let's, let's reach out ahead and help them and not leave them behind. So, you know, those are, those are the reasons that I, that I think of.
Yeah, those are really, those are really great points and, and also have very primitive pragmatic. You know, we, I mean, we're humans. So we really shouldn't be looking out for each other. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We do have a lot of people who listen who are educators. So it's like, you know, classroom teachers, principals, school leaders. You know, thinking about who's listening, you know, what would you want them to take away from our conversation?
Well, you know, for fun, I've benefited from great educators and during, you know, when I was in school, and I'm not an educator, so I wouldn't be presumptuous, and try to tell people what they should do. But the thought I would leave folks with is what we had talked a little bit about before, Tim, is this idea of the full Mind Body engagement, in so much education today is focused on skills, you know, stem or whatever it might be. And that's important. But I think we take a risk if we focus entirely on the mind and leave the body behind. And, you know, this is something that, you know, for example, JFK made this point, back in the 1960s. He said, you know, physical fitness is important to creating the moral strength that we need to do the right things. And you'll you could disagree with that or not agree with that. But I think the full line body engagement in in, you know, Frederick, I've talked with educators, when I, when I participated in the Barefoot autism challenge, I'll typically wear a little button. So people know what I'm doing. And I've talked to teachers and therapists and others, and, you know, for, for some levels of autistic kids who have, you know, the more more challenging issues, it would be hard, I think, to take them to a track. I don't know how to do that. But I think that's got to be important for them. I think it's got to be important for all kids, at least giving them that exposure. And so I worry a little bit, you know, as schools face budget, pressures that you know, and as our culture becomes more sedentary, I worry a little bit about that. And so I think that's the message for me for what it's worth the running that we're going barefoot, it's about the neutral stimulation. It's about engaging with your world. And I'm hopeful that you know that it's helpful to other people the way it has been to be.
Don't miss the mystery question right after this break.
So if you could be a personal assistant to anyone, who would it be if you could be up crystals anybody, anyone, anybody.
Um
I don't know about you, but I listen to a lot of podcasts. I listen to various kinds, you know, news, podcasts, politics, podcast, you know, podcasts on faith and spirituality, podcasts on sports, podcast, you know, poskitt, you know, all different kinds of podcasts. But one of my favorite podcasters is Malcolm Gladwell. And I'm sure he's, so he's an author. He's written a number of books. And Pushkin is his podcast company. And it's kind of like a secret dream of mine that I would love to like, you know, be affiliated with Pushkin. That it was just like, that'd be amazing, right to like, you know, work on one of his narrative podcasts. So, I would be Malcolm Gladwell, his personal assistant, in a heartbeat.
Interesting, yeah, I've read a couple of his books and enjoyed them. Okay, well, here's here's, here's somebody, this is the best I can do. On the spot. The I just read a book by a fella named Tom Satterlee. And Tom was a command sergeant major in Delta Force for many years. And retired. Eventually, he fought in the Battle of Mogadishu, and was deployed to Iraq. So a fellow saw a lot of very difficult, dangerous duty. And after he retired, he struggled with what he calls PTS post traumatic stress, he doesn't use the word disorder, because he thinks it's natural, if you're exposed to that kind of stress, and you have these issues, and is after service work, he's he's working with other veterans to help them help them deal with all the challenges that come with that, including substance addiction and alcohol. And so he he now runs a foundation. So I think it would be really interesting. I don't know what his day to day life is like, and what it'd be like to be his personal assistant. But he's, he's got, you know, the military mindset is the special operators, you know, incredible dedication to training and performance. But he's also realized there's more to life than just being, you know, a fighter and that you've got to deal with these other issues. And he's out, you know, telling his story. He's got a great book. He's, I'm sure involved in lots of other podcasts and interviews, and I think he's testified before Congress. So I think I would learn a lot from hanging around with
him for a little bit. Ken Posner, thank you so much for being on the thinking cluesive podcast. We appreciate it. Thank you, Tim.
That chime means it's free time. Now some of you know that I have another podcast called trailer park that I co host with Ariel missing Blatt. And on that podcast, we play podcast trailers, usually one to two minute previews of current or upcoming podcast. And so this week, I wanted to share a trailer from a friend of mine, Amanda Morin, she's got a new podcast called The empathetic edge. Let's hit play on that trailer, and I'll meet you on the other side.
Telly, are you a good boss?
Well, if you mean somebody who's always looking over your shoulder micromanaging you constantly looking for something that may not be going right with their employees, then no, I would tell you, I'm not a good boss. But if you are thinking that a boss right now should be open and transparent and real and who they are authentically, then I think I'm doing a pretty good job right now. So what about you, Amanda? Are you a good boss?
I mean, I'd like to thank the people who work for me and I pay on a regular basis. Thanks so much. Most days, I'm just trying my best to be understanding and paying attention and thinking through how we can all work together. So I think I'm a pretty good boss. And then there are days where I don't do it. Well, and I have to come back to it and try again. Yeah. So tally, you and I have been talking about what makes a good leader what's working and not working in the workplace for a really long time. And now we want to bring the conversation to you listeners. So
get ready for the empathetic edge a new podcast launching now Next week, it's a podcast about empathetic and intentional leadership.
So who are we and why should you listen to us? I'm Talia
Dodge, and I am a self proclaimed, highly anxious leader. I've been a CEO, I've been a consultant. I've been an executive and I have been talking to leaders for as long as I can remember. And
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So can so this isn't necessarily going to be part of the podcast episode. But I wanted to tell you that I think our first conversation, which is a few months ago has really inspired me to try barefoot running. And oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just a little bit about that. And then we can kind of we can get into it. I don't know if I remember, I don't remember what I told you about, about my running. But I've been I've been having some issues with my knee and hips, hip flexors, just being really tight and hamstrings and all this stuff. And it is it was just it running it was not enjoyable. And I was having a really hard time. And we went on this road trip. My family and I and just all the driving and stuff. It just it was my back and my my my hips and my knees and my feet. Were not happy with me just absolutely not happy with me. So when we got back. Oh, I think I had rented because you you had suggested Born to Run I think right? This mic. Yep. Yeah, so I read Born to Run I more or less skimmed it because they were I bought the book, but I kind of was like going through and I'm like, oh, then then Eric Orton the cool, impossible. I bought that. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like, this is fascinating. This is wonderful. And like, I wonder if this could really help, you know, all of the issues that I've been having. And so I talked to my wife and I'm like, Hey, listen, I want to get some zero drop shoes. I want to try going through some of this stuff in it, you know, in this book. What do you think? And she's like, okay, you know, I support you. Go ahead, get your shoes and you know, get the equipment and stuff like that. So over the last month or so, I had gone like completely barefoot as much as possible. I'm starting to do real short runs in zero drop shoes. And, you know, changing completely how I run. And I'm already seeing like, really, really great benefits. And it's like, wow, wow, yeah.
Yeah, John Don't do too much running too. Too soon because your body's got to adjust. Yeah, but that's so that's so interesting. Tim, I can't wait to hear more. But you know, the one danger with Born to Run is it's it's about barefoot running. Right? But, you know, running is the more impactful way to get going and your body has to, you know, small, small differences in angles and form can cause tendons and other parts of your body to need to adjust. The secret is it's much easier to start with barefoot hiking and even easier than barefoot hiking is just walking around which it sounds like you're doing and the risk is it's so much fun that you can go overboard and I'm somebody who likes to go overboard or does that ends up going overboard. So just be here's the the next book you should read which is barefoot running step by step by Ken, Bob Saxton.
Okay.
Ken, Bob is the real guru of barefoot running. And he'll he'll give you some good tips like avoid, you know, be careful not to exaggerate your forefoot landing. You don't want to strain your jabs. Right,
right. Exactly. Oh, okay, cool. Well, anyways, so there was like, you know, a number of things that kind of happened that that pushed me towards this, like new style of running but I just wanted to let you know that like, definitely our conversation inspired some some change. Some see. I don't know You know, that's, that's pretty cool. I think.
I'm delighted guy and I want to hear more as time goes by and and you go further on this journey.
I'm fascinated, for sure for sure. All right, well, let's let's jump into the conversation. MCIE
