Game-Changers: Exploring Careers in Sport and Performance Psychology

8:11AM Nov 20, 2023

Speakers:

Erica Cameron, PhD

Pete Economou, PhD

Michele Kerulis, LCPC, CMPC

Keywords:

michele

athletes

sport

people

field

work

coaches

mental health

pete

teams

students

clinical

counseling

psychologists

counselors

sports psychology

conversations

creating

great

program

Hello, and thank you so much for joining Palo Alto University and the Division of Continuing and Professional Studies for our talking mental health career podcast episode on sport and performance psychology and counseling. My name is Dr. Erica Cameron, and I am the Provost and Vice President of Academic and Student Affairs at Palo Alto University. This is a exciting conversation that I have two amazing guests that I will get to introduce, but I'll just say, on a personal note, this topic is very near and dear to my heart being a former division one athlete, I'm the daughter of a college and professional basketball coach, and now the ultimate soccer mom. So this topic I think, is really interesting, and hopefully folks will get a lot out of it. I'm very fortunate to be joined by our experts today, Dr. Pete Economau, and Michele Kerulis, thank you so much for being here for this important conversation. I'd like to start first by giving our listeners a little bit of a background for each of you. And then I'm gonna give you both space to tell us a little bit more about your careers before we jump into some of the questions that I have. So first, Dr. Pete, earned a PhD in counseling psychology and as a board certified, and is board certified in cognitive and behavioral therapy, and he is certified mental performance consultant from the Association of applied sport psychology. Dr. Pete completed a post doctorate clinical training in neuro psychology and sports psychology before entering academia for 15 years, both in non tenure and tenure positions. He's been a leader in program development, relationships, wellbeing, and more and more. So Dr. Pete is an active member of several professional organizations is the co host of the podcast When East Meets West and the author of two mindfulness books, mindfulness workbook for beginners and the meditation journal for anxiety. Our other expert Dr. Michele Kerulis, is an associate professor of counseling and director of community engagement with the Family Institute at Northwestern University. She developed a passion for counseling during her years of clinical practice serving a variety of populations, including children and adolescents and residential treatment, young adults experiencing life transitions and athletes experiencing sports related and mental health challenges. Dr. Kerulis is an active public speaker, private practice clinical therapist and blogger for the counseling at Northwestern American Counseling Association, the Association for Applied Sport Psychology and Psychology Today, her work with counseling at Northwestern blog was recognized as one of the top counseling blogs of 2017. And our Psychology Today blog sporting moments has over 50,000 readers. So welcome Dr. Pete and Dr. Michele, to this podcast. I'm gonna give both of you an opportunity to say a little more about yourselves. And then we'll get into some of the questions. Dr. Pete how about you kick it off?

All right, yeah. So thanks so much for being here. Dr. Carmen. Thank you. And yeah, I mean, I think once it's in our DNA, to be an athlete, work with an athlete and also grew up in a family of athletes. And it's really great to have leadership in your chair of people who also support athletics, I think that that's important across the country. So I think it's a really cool time to like, look at the world of athletics. And I think that's why it's like one of these kind of crosses that I bear around trying to bridge gaps. You know, I think that a lot of universities, large universities have all these gaps, you know, really great stuff happening, how can you bring them together? And so, you know, in my role at a research one Rutgers, and also within athletics embedded, it's a really unique opportunity to be able to do that, and so thankful to be here.

Michele, thank you, Dr. Cameron. And same, I'm really excited to be here having this conversation. I think we need to talk more about it. And we in the field know that this has been around for quite some time, even though it's just starting to gain traction in the media. Athletes are starting to talk about the work that we do. So I think that people think that we're a younger profession than we actually are. So it's just really great to be in public spaces, having conversations just about the work that we do with athletes. I also came from a family of athletes, and played individual sports group sports I'm a runner marathoner did martial arts for about 10 years softball, lots of different things. So I integrated my love for sports for something that was even more meaningful to me as I grew out of my sports phase and into more academics. So I'm really excited to be able to also, as Peter said, could bridge the gap with our bodies and our minds and helping athletes, exercisers, runners, performers, anybody who has a high stress job or position, learn how to utilize their mind and their body in order to move forward and reach their goals.

Right? Well, you both it's a great segue, you know, if you could tell our listeners how you became interested in the actual field of sport and performance psychology.

Well, I was a group fitness instructor in college, and I absolutely loved doing it. I loved sharing my idea of fitness and helping other people on their fitness journeys. And when I finished undergrad, I knew there was something else I wanted to do. I always knew I wanted to do something related to psychology, but wasn't sure exactly what that was. And at that time, I came across a degree program that was a master's in Sport and Exercise psychology. So I entered into that program learned about the Association for Applied Sport Psychology. And I just knew that combining psychology and sports and exercise would be something that would carry me through my career. Now, I did not know how much I would love working with people in a mental health sense, also, with really deep crisis issues, trauma and some more serious and long term issues that we continue to talk about, too. So when I finished school, I took the first job that was offered to me, and that was working with adolescents in residential treatment. So I was able to use my clinical skills, in addition to encouraging my clients to move and walk and exercise as a way to help reduce some of the physiological issues that can build up that are related to trauma. Well, I

love what Michele said about like, we're both new and old in the field. Because I think we have been around a long time, and yet we our place at the table is closer to the front. And I think so 15 years ago, when I was finishing my PhD program, I was a coach. So I'm a former swimmer. And I was coaching during my graduate studies. And there was no services for athletes related to mental health or performance at Seton Hall University at that time, and frankly, across the country. You know, maybe there was one here and there, you know, golfers and Major League Baseball had a few here and there. But you know, in terms of where we're at today, it was not where it is. And so it was kind of cool to build this program. So. So I think that's the cool thing that Michele said, it's both new and old, because like, I got into it by creating it. And so and now we've been able to kind of grow and grow in a way that I tell students that there's, you know, two three postings a week for jobs, you know, like you will get a job if you want to work in this field, because it's needed, you know, because athletes sacrifice a lot for their institutions or their organizations. And, you know, we have to provide them more than just, you know, body health and looking at mind body connection, and then I love to add in spirit. Yeah,

no, that's really great. And not, you know, Pete, that's a really great segue into, you know, if I'm a student or someone who's thinking about wanting to enter the field, how do I get, excuse me, how do I get started?

Yeah, it's a lot easier today to get started. I think that's what's really cool, you know, because I just people like Michele and I've kind of paved a way ish, you know, and so there's lots of different resources. So today, for example, like over here in New Jersey, like a bunch of the universities that I consult with, or, you know, even at Rutgers, we have training programs. So we take Master's doctoral postdoc, students to come in. I think there are degree programs. I'll let Michele speak to that a little bit. And I think because she went into the exercise kind of program I didn't, I went a very traditional mental health route. Counseling Psych is a little bit more nuanced. It's not so pathological in our training, you know, we really look at strength based multicultural competence, which, which really linked well with athletics because there are so many issues related to diversity, so many issues related to strength and just kind of creating like an evidence based intervention. So I think when I'm mentoring and Michele may correct me, I tend to encourage people to kind of get more of a mental health training, you know, and then choose that as a specialty Um, but let's, let's, I'll see what Michele says about that. Yeah,

I agree 100% with you. So we are at a better place now for students who are looking for a career in this field. Because there are specific graduate programs and previously, the graduate programs were only housed in typically education or kinesiology departments. So people would learn biomechanics, physiology, kinesiology, and sports psychology wasn't necessarily mental health, which could be confusing for the general public. And so now students have the chance to to earn degrees that are specific mental health degrees, focusing on working with athletes and exercisers. So I think number one, students should ask the program they're looking into about what they can do post graduation. So in most states, individuals have to have a certain amount of credit hours in order to be able to sit for clinical licensure, whether it's for LCPC Licensed Clinical Professional counseling for to be licensed psychologist to be social worker, LMFT, whatever your clinical area is, you have to know, can I add credit hours to my degree if it's not a clinical degree, or is that not permitted? So that's something that's not permitted in some states. That's a very important question. I would also encourage students to ask Does the school provide them with a sport related internship or do they have to find that on their own? A program that I developed many years ago in Chicago was designed to allow students to get both their sport hours and their hours required for clinical licensure. In the same program, it was an extremely intense program, but very, very effective in the goals that we set. And I think that really shows that we've come a long way, not only in our, in our profession, but in the degree programs that we create for students, because a lot of things are moving towards the clinical aspect. And that just simply means that you as an individual, hold a clinical license to practice mental health in your state. So that is something that we're seeing teams and different associations look for when they're hiring. So I think that's a really good point to bring up. Also, within the association for Applied sport psychology, we have the CMPC credential, certified mental performance consultant. And that just shows the general public that the individual has competency in certain areas. So I believe there are 12 specific content areas, in addition to a minimum of maybe at this time, I believe it's 700 hours that are mentored by somebody who holds that credential, in addition to passing a certification test. So there's a lot that goes into it from from our perspective, that can really help you gain the knowledge that you need and the experience to effectively help athletes in many different areas.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, the three of us on this conversation have been athletes, you know, or are still current athletes. But what if a student wasn't an athlete, right? And so, do you need to be an athlete to be effective in this field? Is just the training enough?

It's so funny, because I will, I was actually going to start with that. You don't need to be, you know, I think it doesn't hurt. You know, it's but it's just like, you don't have to be married to help do couples counseling, or, you know, you don't have to do some kind of parental guidance stuff and have kids like, it's could be an earned skill. So but you know, I think I'll see what Michele says too. But like, I think, again, it doesn't hurt. And I do think that, like a lot of athletes I work with, and you know, I kind of just fell into it. Just because I was a CBT person with a background in sport. I started working with the, you know, New Jersey based teams pretty quickly once I was working in the mental health world, about 15 years ago. So I, and I think that they liked it, like and whenever it came up, it wasn't you know, in traditional counseling or mental health, we're not talking about ourselves, but in sports psych like we are in the room, you know, and that is multicultural competence. Like we're in the room, you know, you know, whoever I am, my identities are there. And I do tend to work with a lot of athletes of color. And so, you know, my whiteness is something I bring in a lot, because it's important, and that's why I do like the anti racist work I do in sport. So, them knowing that I understand the shared sort of sacrifice that it takes to perform at a high level. It doesn't hurt the clinical relationship.

I agree with that. I don't think somebody has to be an athlete to do well. In this field, I think that you have to have a desire to help people and want to make the world a better place. And if you come from from that base, and try to understand people, then you can be successful. Now, that comes with a lot of studying a lot of practice a lot of mistakes. But as long as you have mistakes in a way that are intended to help you advance and help your clients advance and being open to admitting when you've made a mistake, and you can say, Yeah, I might have used an inaccurate intervention, or I might have interpreted something inaccurately, let's work together strength based, what Pete said, let's work together to try to correct this situation. And that's part of what we teach in school and ethics classes is how to own up to your mistakes and how to continue to move forward in helping people. I think that athletes definitely appreciate somebody who understands the athletic realm and sports just like if you're working with a performer, it helps if you understand that world, and that does lead also lean on cultural competence, and just taking the time to know the language and understand maybe what travel schedules look like and what the intensity looks like, and their specific situations.

Yeah, you both have, on multiple occasions talked about culture, understanding multicultural competence. What do future sports or sport and performance psych, excuse me, psychologists and counselors need to do to have cultural humilit?. My

favorite go to is the Association for multicultural counseling and development, they have an amazing model of how to help you help others and to reflect on your own place in this world. And really understanding your own your values, your bias, what you do well, what maybe you can improve on to be able to just hold space for somebody else. And we're all different from each other. So really understanding what that means. And I think it takes a lot of deep reflection and the ability to accept feedback to open ourselves up to being helpers in that space.

Yeah, I think originally, I as I got into this field, Erica, I was like, I wish I went into engineering, you know, because this will just only because the self reflection that you have to do is really draining. And it was a lot of work. And I'm thankful today that I was able to do it, because like Michele said, so you work on your implicit biases, you do social contact theory, you know, you understand and remain curious, because that's the mindfulness piece that I come in, you know, I think it's like, learning about other people and their differences is, so I think it's a beauty of what I'm able to do. But it took me understanding my privilege to be able to then sit with and to undertake to actually engage with and I think that's what's so kind of, like interesting about my work, because, again, having working primarily with people of color, it's like, you know, we often have these conversations, and they'll say things like, you know, you're just a different white doctor Pete, you know, or something like that, you know, and it's like, that's cool that they feel comfortable to say that and but it took a lot of work. And so, like Michele said, it's part of the graduate training. There's the Institute for people's survival and beyond, which does anti racist practice that called undoing racism. These are things that I do at the state and national level, you know, both with NJK and APA. And so I think that that's, and there's no program today that would not have that integrated in their curriculum, that just wouldn't happen. Yeah.

Do you think there have been any or currently significant social issues in the field? And how does that change what the career looks like?

I can speak on a social level in terms of what it looks like for our students. So when we talk about financial differences, graduate education, and training is extremely expensive. And I think that when we talk about equity and access to education, there are huge discrepancies. And then once you graduate, there is extensive continuing education that is required. A lot of times that could include going to conferences or traveling. Sometimes people want to be involved in leadership and make a difference in the organization. So all of that costs a lot of money. And I think that's something that we don't talk about very often. So on the academic trend, that's something else but there's so much on the social lens that there's so many issues. I'll hand that over to Pete I know hes' very passionate about this, too. Oh, thanks.

Thanks for the I'll take the handoff. Yeah, I chose it. Another thought I had Michele about the academic pieces, like the CNPC, shut down for a year to like reevaluate their curriculum and add in multicultural, you know, domain where I guess it kind of became a very explicit domain within the 12. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, it's 2023. You know, I mean, when you when you asked that Erica was like, you know, George Floyd image popped in my head, and then all the social media posts that I was so proud of many of my teams that they posted, you know, about, and, like, they're more than just athletes, and, but yet, they're targeted. You know, and I think some of our campuses look very different, you know, many campuses across the country are primarily white. And, you know, the predominantly white institutions do treat our black athletes differently. I mean, we have research to support that. I just, I was doing a study on that this year, but it kind of was with biofeedback. And it kind of got a little up, uplifted, or uprooted. I wish it was uplifted, but it was, you know, comparing HBCUs and so I think, you know, Deion Sanders is doing an amazing thing for this discipline, right? Like, for, for college athletics, you know, he is a, you know, not embarrassed to talk about, like, who he is, he is who he is. He's 100% himself wherever he goes, and I could watch his clips, like, all day long, when the reporters asked him questions. He's like, I don't you know, I don't you could, you could, you could think what you think, and I'm still me, and you can see his kids have the same swag. And that's beautiful. Because I think that's what we're trying to foster in more in any marginalized group, frankly, you know, like, you're special, you know, you are important. And so there's a lot going on.

There's definitely a lot going on. And I think that gets to I think, Michele, what you said about the strength base, right? I, you know, I couldn't see going into any counseling session with anybody with really focusing on the negative, but not even with athletes. Because, you know, for an athlete, I'll speak for myself, the goal is to win the goal is to perform, right, and I have to tap into what are my strengths? And how am I resilient? How am I overcoming things? And so really keeping that strength based mindset, but, you know, really understanding who I am, in that context. One thing that you also that I think And so I'm curious to know, your opinions, you know, how has NIL deals for athletes changed maybe how, someone who's interested in this field working with athletes?

Well, this is Michele, I'm gonna go are you, okay? You know, name image and likeness. You know, it's, it's, this is a year and a half. And it's the Wild Wild West, it's really exciting, because so when I was an athlete, I had to get special permission, and they denied it the first year to get my check, which was the over of my scholarship to pay for rent, you know, they were not allowed to give me this extra money that was, you know, already part of my scholarship to pay for rent. And so this was needed, you know, so I start with that. And we have no idea how it's going to impact you know, because there there are no parameters set right now. And, you know, the NCAA is really good at creating narratives, they're not so great at creating policy, you know, like, you know, even with COVID, they weren't like, they were like, okay, just do what your conferences, you know, and I think that that's what they're doing with NHL, they're sort of like, just do what your state says. And that's because California was the first state to approve it, then New Jersey, you know, and then and then that's when it went, you know, federal and so we don't know how it's gonna affect but I do have, I'm collecting data right now to see the impact it will have on their mental health and well being, because, you know, it could be positive.

Yeah, I think it's an important topic to discuss because it is unknown. And so there are a lot of there are not a lot of boundaries around it. And I think that's something Pete, when you mentioned social media that came to mind for me is that one thing that I like to talk with people about, especially if they're in the public eye, is boundaries, and you don't know You don't owe anybody an explanation of anything. So we see a lot of people being attacked pretty significantly on social media for just all for different reasons. And people have so many different opinions right now that I think oftentimes we forget that there is a huge gray area, and there's room to be in the middle and there's room to not be polarized, but that's not popular right now. So I think that number one, teaching people about boundaries, so having the ability to say no or to to not comment on certain things. So sometimes people will give someone a hard time because they're not saying anything and Sometimes, another thing I like to remind people is, is you need your own space to process that. Whatever this is. So there's all these events going on in the world. And people will ask athletes who are in the public eye. Well, what do you think about this issue? What do you think about that? What do you think about what so and so said, and it could be that the athlete needs more time to process on their own because of how they're affected or their loved ones are affected. So I think that that boundary around some of the social issues and some of the social media is really important. And then really having people that they trust around them to help make decisions, like really good business decisions around this. And we don't know what good business decisions are just yet, because we don't know exactly where this this whole business is going. But I agree. I'm very curious to see how it will impact individuals wellness. Yeah.

And you know, it's also I think there's a role here for psychologists and counselors who are working with athletes, right? Speaking to athletes about how they're holding boundaries, right? And working through kind of the role play, I'm thinking an empty chair right here, you got, you got someone on social media questioning you, or reporter question you how are you going to respond? What's what's triggering you, right. And so using some of the techniques that we use in our just clinical practice, but now translating that to some social media influence and social pressures that might be there. And then really around decision making. And I mean, I don't know how many lessons I've done with kids on time, you know, time management organization, your budget, you know, and so these are also things that I believe psychologists and counselors could really bring into the therapeutic relationship with athletes to start navigating some of these areas, and then dealing with the athletes mental health and wellness.

Yeah, and I bring a lot of our theory into sessions on so sorry, no, no, please go ahead. I bring a lot of theory into our sessions. So I actually do a lot of presentations for people in our field, about ethical interactions with the media, and looking at decision making models and how those can be helpful in the work that we do if we're approached by media, or if we choose to engage in media. And the same thing with athletes is how to allow them to engage when they want to and how to gracefully step away. Because if they step away from an interview in a way that's perceived as negative, then that can have a very negative connotation for the way they appear publicly. So to be able to excuse themselves, or just turn down an interview altogether, is something I think that's important to teach them and to teach the confidence in No means no, and that's for many different things. But I think that goes back to having people that you trust around you.

I'm going to I'm going to shift us a little bit. And, you know, many would think that you get into the field of sport and performance psychology to work with elite athletes. But based on your careers, you both have shared underlying messages of support, empowerment, encouragement, and you provide that to weekend warriors, athletes of all ages, and even individuals getting into sports for the first time. So for instance, Michele, you encourage marathon runners who are in training with weekly messages to keep them motivated. And Pete you focus on blending Eastern healing and with Western psychology to encourage athletes to harness their own potential from the inside out? What would you say are other kind of common myths about your job or the field of expertise? And you know, what do most people misunderstand about the field of work.

I would say even though we both do work with elite athletes, we do other things too. And I love my work with elite athletes. As much as I love my work with younger children, and teenagers. It's just it's all very different. I especially love working with first time athletes and even marathoners absolutely come to mind. That's one of my passions. And the coolest thing about the marathon specifically the Chicago Marathon in addition to other marathons, it is the only sport where you're going to have first time athletes and amateur athletes on the same course the same day, the same event as the best in the world. And I think that's a really big motivation for first time marathoners. It can feel a little intimidating, but I reframe that into what other athletes get to do this in their first try at something with the literal best in the world. So I try to bring some of add excitement into it and just really share the message about sports psychology that, you know, take a little bit of these tips to try to brighten your day, try a little bit more in a different way. And to really allow your mind to carry you to the finish line, if something feels difficult.

I would say Michele is a much better person than I am. So that's really, it's a good balance to have her here. So good pick Erica. I don't work with children or teenagers anymore. I mean, I think I have been part of my training, but I don't anymore. You know, it's a different skill set for sure. And, you know, I've done some kind of like, adolescent stuff, but it's a different skill set. And I would say common myth wise, you know, it's, it, you know, Ted lasso, you know, it. So we're out there now, you know, and so like, there's, there's, there's characters to depict what we do, which is super cool. And I think a lot of the young students, I get believe that this is a really like sexy career. And in some ways it is. And it's really high risk, really high demand really long hours, it's not nine to five, there's no banking hours, you know, you're on, you know, and so part of that just by, you know, being, you know, a director, or if you have a private practice, like part of that is if you run a business, you don't get a break, when you're the boss, that things come to you. Right. And so that's what is expected in this field, you know, so one of the other myths would be that, again, that, that, that they're all, you know, well and high achieving, and it's true that they can be, but there's also some people that come with some, you know, significant issues, you know, which oftentimes their sport is what helps them cope. And, but when it becomes a business, then it's no longer really, it's their job, it's no longer helping them cope in the same way, you know, because now I'm getting paid. And so you have to find other coping, and I'm really passionate about that, like, you can't just have sport and, you know, Netflix did a series called quarterback that showed, you know, three of our top quarterbacks in the league. And if one thing that really stood out was that all of them had days that were non football, and that's something I've been doing for 15 years, you have to have a day where you're non sport, you know, in today's world, with, you know, I mean film, I mean, it's so interesting, because we want everyone to be in the present moment, everyone's heard that now, everyone's heard of mindfulness, that's the Eastern stuff that I do. So we want it to be the present moment, yet, I want you to watch hours of film from the last game where you messed up, to remind yourself how you messed up, so that you don't mess up again, you know, but, you know, in the future, so we're really kind of taking people out of that. So there's another myth that we're and lastly, I think that's part of what is really cool that Michele and I do is that it's like, Anthro, it's like, we're sort of cultivating this, this this new field. Because honestly, we don't really belong in football, you know, rugby, like, you know, because it's such an aggressive sport. But yet, we have to. And so I think trying to find that, like that way of integrating, it has been so fun, you know, to really like, like, get creative. And I think that might be another myth, as if there's a one size fits all, I gave you a lot of myths, sorry. But like, like, as if there's a one size fits all, you know, and it's not like each person that sits down, you know, like Michele said, we'll bring theory in. And we'll be doing interventions from a behavioral perspective. And it varies from person to person, and it has to so there's not a one size fits all for this either. Yeah,

I think that brings another myth that it's that it's an easy job. Like, once you've got the clinical skills, once you understand the textbook stuff, it's easy to translate in and it is it is different every single day, especially traveling and very high stakes games or events or matches, it brings a lot of pressure, not only just to the athletes, but to the staff and the coaching individuals too.

Yeah, you know, you both are having me have either traumatic flashbacks or warm, fuzzy feelings. You know, so, Michele, you were talking, you know, about marathon events and how, you know, it's the only time an amateur or beginner actually gets to be on the same at the same day. So, you know, it's not like we've gotten to the Olympics, or it's some elite. And I brought back a memory of I was on Mile six, posing with a picture because the sunset was coming up in a marathon. And in the background, the winner was already finishing the course you know, and and so it brings that but it is there's this motivation, this strike, you know, like, oh, Wow, they're so amazing, and I get to be here in this privilege. And I think also for a counselor or psychologists, there's those moments of like being in that greatness, right being in the wind being in the awesomeness that sports brings. But they're also in those losses, too. They're also in, you know, the stress the, you know, our how are we performing? Or how am I performing, and I could potentially get cut. And so you know, writing those highs and lows, I'm sure bring a lot of challenges and barriers to psychologists and counselors. What other challenges and barriers do perform your sport and performance counselors and psychologists need to be aware of,

I think it's really important to have a clear confidentiality conversation with everybody involved, so that people who come to talk to you again, when I'm working, for example, with US Soccer, I, my role is the mental health and sports psychology consultant. So I'm a resource for everybody in that organization. It could be athletes, staff, coaches, officials, you know, I do trainings, I travel with teams, different things, but it's very clear what the confidentiality boundaries are when people reach out to me. So I think that when if if somebody is going to work with a team or an organization, they have to make that a priority to make sure that is very clearly understood, because that changes conversations pretty significantly. So that's, that's one thing that I would say,

That's a great one, because it's one that's, you know, it's like kind of a, it's really embedded in sort of incestuous, like how a lot of teams operate. And so we need to be mindful of where we are, I would say the other one is like, patients in a way, you know, because high performers want things done yesterday. And you know, we are high performers, you know, that's likely as former athletes, but also just kind of as you rise in a career, you don't get there by punching a clock. You have to, you know, sacrifice and Miller and Rollnick, they call it the righting reflex. This is for motivational interviewing. And I think I am very mindful of that, where it's a barrier, because I need to remain with them where they're at, because otherwise I'm trying to push them to where they where they want to go. And they'll get there. And that's the beauty of evidence based practice, but just trying to, like, slow it down a little bit. You know, I'll have athletes be like, Can I get you like two or three times a week? And it's like, well, no, I'm gonna set the treatment plan. No, and, you know, it doesn't go that fast, you know, because I think what we do that we do is an art, you know, there's a science behind it, but it's an art too, it's another barrier, because sometimes they, they want the quick fix, you know, they think everyone's getting injected, you know, they're getting injected, again, surgeries left and right, you know, because they want to get the best to come back as quick as possible. And if there's something going on their life, emotionally, they want it fixed right away, and it just doesn't work that way. Any

other challenges or barriers that you see? One

thing that the field will continue to face, but we're doing a really good job of is addressing the stigma related to mental health or having a mental health person on the field or part of the team? I think a lot of teams are doing better with that. But it's, it's still a bit of a barrier. Yeah,

it's, it's so funny, you say that, because I was gonna say the opposite. I was gonna say, I'm trying to kick people out of the office. So I think that there's both it's a it's a, it's an and. Absolutely, there's still stigma. But I do think we've done such a good job at like, de stigmatizing this work, to the point where they, you know, athletes speak very openly, I'll hear them talk about our work to each other, you know, but I can't, you know, I maintain confidentiality, but I hear things.

Right. How do you how is the interplay with coaches, because, you know, that I think, could enhance or stigmatize the work that an athlete might do with a counselor or a psychologist, what

I'll say, with this, that's a great question. And I and I, to Michele's point about confidentiality as being clear, you know, as a licensed folk, we have to just inform consent, you know, describe what the process is, and I do include coaches as part of the treatment plan, and not to talk about everything because that wouldn't be covered under HIPAA, but that they need to know some things, you know, they need to know whether or not you know, they might need to, like lay off and not ride that athlete for this week, you know, because of x. You know, there was some loss in the family or something kind of tragic happening. So, I think into your and, like any leader, it does dictate, but we can work on top down bottom up, and that's the beauty of thinking about it systemically, that as we work with like the managers and staff, support staff, you know, that it's bottom, you know, it's a there's a science behind that and it's a beautiful way I am trying to get them. And so I think also working with coaches, I often say that that's I want that to be my swan song in this profession is just getting coaches healthier. And having them think from like the brain that Michele and I have.

Yeah, and I have had outstanding luck with coaches I've worked with. So I feel extremely lucky to be in that position, because I know colleagues who have not had the same amount of luck in terms of coach buy in. And I don't have conversations with coaches about if I'm with athletes or staff, I don't have those conversations with coaches. But I encourage the individual to talk with the coach about things that might be helpful in that relationship. And we even will sit and make a list and talk about how to have those conversations. So even though we've got the buy in, and the relationship with that coaching staff, I still am not the one that's going to share that information. But that like that, I think that's different team to team. It's just every team has its own culture. And so I think, again, having a clear understanding of what the boundaries are the work that you're doing in that moment with that individual or with that team helps guide how you navigate some of those interactions with coaches.

Yeah, with with psychologists and counselors, you know, becoming more integrated, let's just say within teams and organizations and even in institutions. You know, it kind of it makes me think of like an integrative care model. Like that happens in the medical world, right, where counselors are now in with doctors and, and so like within the university with athletic trainers, the team doctors, and now counselors, you know, that has been a change. I wouldn't say when I was an athlete that I would have ever found a counselor, psychologists are part of those teams. How do you think the landscape of the field is going to change over the next five years we've received progressions or maybe even 10 years, if we need that timeframe? But how do we see it changing in the future? My

hope is that we see more than one licensed clinician with every team across every sport. And I think the main barrier, there is resources, I think already that it comes down to dollars allocated to specific needs of that team. And so I hope that most teams will fall in the direction of creating specific line items for a mental health team to be part of their group atmosphere. I think a lot of teams are already in that direction teams. There are some teams already there. Quite a few are already there. So that's my hope. And I think training wise, we'll see more people who are interested in this field. I was at an award ceremony, I received an alumni award for a high school, my previous high school. And I was talking to a young lady who said she was getting a bachelor's degree in sports psychology after high school. I'm like, I didn't even know that existed. So I was excited to hear that. And I think that we're going to hear more on the education front about preparing more people to step into those roles. Because I'm hoping and I'm confident more roles will be available.

Yeah, I think the resourcing is the is the key there. And so I think that that I've also been lucky, you know, to have great supportive coaches and administration that have resourced you know, what I've needed? And is there still more that could be used and especially across the country, because, you know, NCAA released this transformation report, where they're looking at trying to create, create some equity across division one schools, because you've got like Alabama to Howard, you know, like, it's really hard to say that these are schools that are supposed to be competing with one another. And so even with the schools that I consult with, it's very different, there's a large range for how resource they can be having done this 15 years ago, Seton Hall, which is a smaller school, that was able to get creative, and you have to be able to get creative to do this. But the last thing I'd like to see is just the diversity. You know, I think we we need, you know, more representative groups doing this work, I think, historically, it was, you know, the majority group, and we, you know, so I, some of the best sort of compliments I've received over the last few years is when like an athlete I'm working with is like, well, I'm done, I'm gonna come back and you know, do what you do, you know, like, and I'm, like, good, like, I gotta, you know, program for you, and we can help you get there, you know, and there's no better compliment than that. And I think that that, for me is like the symptom and the thing that we could do across the country and all systems where we need people from marginalized groups in positions of power rather than because what's happening now is like we're creating these like, you know, just a diversity position. And it's really disheartening to me because I would have hoped that we've come further and understand systems better, because we're just ostracizing that person and that work further, you know, we really need people that represent these groups in all of the positions. And so I think that that's what my hope for what we'll see in the next five to 10 years in sports psych.

Right. Okay, so we're almost at our time limit. But what's one question you wish I'd asked you? And how would you have answered?

I think, one question. That's a great question is, what do you need to be successful in the field? I think there are a lot of answers to that, though, the one thing that comes to mind for me, because we've talked quite a bit about high stress here is I think that professionals in our field, need to have the ability to work efficiently in unstructured and stressful settings, and be able to self direct, because every day will bring something different, and every environment will bring something different. But you if you have the ability to understand what your role is, have confidence and skills to execute that role. Well, regardless of circumstances, I think that that's one key for being successful in this field, in addition to networking, and knowing that this is, I would call it a pretty small field in terms of, we all kind of know each other or know each other's names, not to say we know everybody, but it's a small enough field where you can reach out to somebody to find a professional specializing in almost any sport. And you know, between the two of us, I bet we would be able to come up with somebody that we know immediately for a referral, but to have a good network and to be able to perform your skills. Well. Yeah,

that's a it's a it's one of those really tough media questions. So I not that prepared for it. But I guess maybe like a favorite moment, which of course, Michele, I can't talk about, like specific athletes, but um, I think I've really loved mentoring student I've always loved mentoring students, I think in doing supervision, and actually just this was at this week. Yeah, I think it was this week. As soon as we co presented at some, at a conference like locally about it was it was about first gen and students of color kind of success in higher ed. And it was just so cool to watch him because afterwards, he like, you know, he was like, Oh, I kind of got lost in what I was saying, you know, and I was like, Yeah, but no one but no one, but you and I knew that, you know, like you, you pulled it together. And that's what you do, like you learned and it's so cool. And it was like a cool moment that he felt like good of himself to like be presenting in front of these group of peers and, and superiors and was able to get lost in his words and reel it in and finish it. It was cool.

So before we end, what advice would you give someone interested in or starting out in their career?

I would tell them just to network. I think like Michele said, it is a small, it's a small discipline, there's a lot of good people out there. And, you know, network, get to know them. And like, kind of think of life as a buffet, you know, so just don't fill up too much on one thing, and, you know, just taste a little bit of everything.

I call that the appetizer buffet. That's what I always tell my students, it's like, you're you're having an appetizer buffet, a little bit of everything.

Yeah. I would say be humble and open to learning and lifelong learning. I think those are really important things.

I want to thank you both for joining me on this journey of really digging in a little on what it means to be a sport and performance psychologist and counselor. And I want to thank you for your time and your passion and your work in this area. And especially from a former but still lifelong athlete, just the important work that both of you are bringing to the field, as well as to the athletes that you impact and the exercisers that you impact. So I wish you both well and continued success and forward movement in this field. So thank you very much for being a guest.

Thank you.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you again for listening. I hope you'll join us for the next episode where Dr. Maureen O'Connor will discuss social justice and human rights with experts in the field.