Welcome to VR 360 A with the interview podcast dedicated to talking about the important topics within the Poke relation technology industry. Hosted by Brent Geister. And in partnership with global results communication, find out more information at global results pr.com And welcome to a new episode of PR 360 I'm your host Brett dice you can please subscribe to PR 360 on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify and Amazon musically review it really does help with the rankings and let us know how we're doing. But this week, I have brandy Whalen with me and she is the co founder of Kate caster. And it's really all about podcasting this episode because it is an important topic to talk about because podcasting is everywhere. Everybody decided to start a podcast or hit pandemic and still are trying to figure out but with her she is a ambitious leader and she's cited for new challenges and opportunities. She also has led different sales teams through it as well, but she co founder of chi caster, which is a unique agency about podcasting. So welcome to the show. Brandy.
Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
You're welcome. And um, my first question is, oh, my guess is are you coffee or tea drinker?
I love coffee, but I also love tea. So I do both. But coffee is what gets me out of bed in the morning. And tea is the thing that I feel like I should be doing.
Well, they're both healthy options, as long as you don't dilute it too much with sugar.
Oh, yeah, I'm a purist. I don't mess around with milk or sugar.
That's fair. I usually am too. I might use a bit of honey. But honey is usually more of our natural thing anyway, so still makes it somewhat good. I would say
yeah, yeah. Honey is great. And a little bit of lemon. Maybe in tea.
That's fair. That's fair. I mean, depending on the tea, because some teas are actually pretty good without anything to be honest with you.
Yeah, this is true. When I entered the world of tea, I'd never really realized there were so many options.
Yes, her very, a lot of options, not just to your Lipton, but also like, smaller, almost like craft tea companies just like craft craft coffee as well.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I can go both coffee and tea.
No, right. And then I gave a very brief introduction about you. But can you give a little bit more about your expertise? Sure.
So I come from the world of public relations. And I started my own small boutique PR firm about seven years ago, and then transitioned two years ago to only podcasts, just realizing through my traditional PR company that podcasts are such a unique way for anyone with any sort of expertise or any really to to explain why you do what you do and why it's important. And it just powerful and provide a just a new opportunity for my clients. And realizing that I just wanted to go all in on podcasts and launched kick caster with my co founder, Ryan Estus, about two years ago,
yes, podcasting has gone through its I guess meteoric rise in the past few years. As my next question says extremely powerful the past few years. So what do brands not understand about podcasts? Because I feel like a lot of PR people are on the fence. Like I like listening to him. But I don't really want to jump in fully.
Yeah, I think it's tricky, because I think there are some brands that see it as an advertising opportunity. And I, I think there is absolutely a place for that. But what I always tell our clients is that no one wants to listen to a 60 minute advertisement, they want to hear about you. Tell us about your journey. Tell us about falling on your face and pulling yourself back up. And why you decided to do what you're currently doing and why it matters to your customers to your clients. So I think I think podcasting offers just this, this nice medium of being able to really dive into who is behind the brand. All the executives that could be a potential podcast guests for just to give a different lens for a company. Also looking at recruiting. If you have somebody a leader of the company, or maybe somebody from the HR department talking about your culture, really great recruiting tool for for finding some some folks that have a full real in depth full understanding of what you do and why you do it.
I also think brands understand you could do internal only podcasts. So they're basically specific to the company where it's just private to now obviously be prepared for any leaks to happen, but at least you can make it internal people do share it. Well, I mean, that's up to but you can still make it internal and private to just your employees not just like the whole traditional podcast of like, it goes everywhere.
Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, it's interesting, we got some client feedback month ago, and they were talking about how their employees they've been putting, we've been booking their CEO on podcasts, and how they just keep getting feedback from the employees about how cool it is to like really fully understand their leader, and making them more proud about who they're working for and what they do day in and day out. So I think it does provide a really cool opportunity to connect with your team.
A lot the podcast, I guess, hosting providers do allow you to do private I know, the one that I use actually allows you to private, your podcast specifically.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are, I always tell everyone, my team and clients that, you know, our attention span for reading is is not great, but I think we can we can put on some headphones, put in our air pods and and listen to audio all day long. So it's, it's a great way to deliver information,
and then actually moving on to the ad set portion of it. How should brands and or podcasters, depending on which one so how should podcasters approach brands? And how should brands approach podcasters when doing ads. So I think
it's a relationship and when just for a podcasters perspective, we you are responsible for delivering great content. And in order to get the listenership which is ultimately what the brands want is to get all the ears, you have to deliver on the content piece. And that content piece better be good and well received by your listeners and have dedication and people that are really tuning in. So I think that that is something that that podcasters need to take a look at. And I think that traditional media kind of went through this when I think we're seeing more and more that there are a lot of pay pay to play opportunities that podcasters are asking for, for money in return for an interview. Advertising is a completely different beast, because you know what you're getting yourself into you are buying advertising. But when it comes to buying a place to make content, it gets a little bit more complicated. And I think sometimes you can lose the integrity and the quality if you're charging people to be interviewed on the show versus maybe a mid roll and more advertisement side.
And I mean, even when you're talking about ads or even sponsorships of types of podcasts, should the the the podcast of the brand look for short term or long term because I've always said that long term ads are going to be better than a long term game is better for podcasting, specifically. So should it be that way? Should PR pros just ditch the short term thing and just do long term sponsorships or ads through specific podcasts?
Yeah, I think long term is definitely the way to go. I mean, obviously, there is a little bit of beta, perhaps it needs to go on and determine which podcasts are going to be most powerful and beneficial to your brand. But once you find it and which one's really connecting with those ideal audiences staying in for the long haul, and, and making sure that that is kind of your message is consistent and, and the duration is long. I think that that is definitely the way to go. Even
moving on to let's say clubhouse or the drop in drop out audio that's kind of has disrupted the podcasting industry a little bit because it's different from what we're doing right now. Because what we're doing right now is not law. It's not live. We're recording it. I'm editing it, and then it goes live through a hosting site, but like clubhouse, Spotify greenroom, Facebook is eventually going to be doing it. Twitter has spaces. Discord has stages, I think is what they're calling their own. What should podcasters and brands figure out about that type of audio because I feel like there's a divergence in audio content now with live or drop in drop out and traditional podcasts.
And I think it all has importance and I think podcasters absolutely need to find a way to shake up their model a bit and maybe incorporate some different platforms like clubhouse, where it's more of a fireside chat, perhaps where they're pulling in even multiple guests to have a conversation. So changing that format a little bit but then still staying true to your podcast. I think that that I think it's always going to have a place where people are going to want to tune in maybe people even want to binge listen like they they stumble upon a new podcast. They really like it and they want to listen to it for 10 hours. And you know, a platform like clubhouse It is it's live. So you have to be able to, to tune in, and it has to accommodate your schedule. So I think that there's a place for for both and be prepared. And be prepared. Yeah, there's no cuts, you have to be ready. And and I think that that taps into a different type of skill set for podcasters. It's almost like you become a moderator.
And you have to have your improv skills up to because everything goes on the fly. And you have to like, basically go with whatever's going on within the conversation. Because here, if we mess up, I can just cut it out. And just have it look like it's still the conversation, even though I know where I made my cuts.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do think that there's a little bit as you know, just the podcast, evolution of being more rough, I guess, like, I think that podcasts have become more polished in the last few years, where it's more edited people their equipment is, is probably nicer than what it was 10 or 15 years ago. And I and there's that I think there's always this desire to have some purity involved, where it's, it's a little more off the cuff. And I think that that's where clubhouse comes in really nicely. And I also think, given our the time in our world where we're just not, we're not going to events, we're not getting that just real time experience. So it's a little bit of combination of both?
Well, I mean, I do know, because podcasts have been around I think, since the early 2000s. I think 2005 2004 is when it actually officially started, or someone decided to do it. Yeah. And I seen an evolution of x, I read a lot about like just podcasting in general. And it was off the cuff in the beginning, you just said whatever, and you just released it, and it was fine. And then people want a little bit more polished. But I think we're going pendulum swinging again, where even with the stats that I've read that Gen Z once more off the cuff, millennials still want a little bit more polished. So you have to like for podcasters it's an art you have to like, say which one is a little bit more off the cuff, which one's not, uh, you have to make sure that that play is an order, but you have to make sure that it sounds good. And it's high quality at the same time. It's a delicate balance. Yep. And I mean, for example, like I'm using the road caster Pro to actually record this as well. So this is a high quality, like, hundreds of dollars type of equipment. So yeah, you're right, has changed the game a little bit. Since more companies have been more involved in the Tech has gotten better at the same time.
Yeah, and just even think about the post production tools. They've become a lot more user friendly, I think that you can take somebody who's maybe more of an amateur podcaster and really turn it up based on the tools that are available.
I mean, you could almost think about the strategy as podcasting as like YouTube videos. And then clubhouse is the live streaming Twitch side of things where you have polished but then you have off the cuff stuff from your clubhouse, because I think that's what's really going to happen is going to we have to mirror what video has done to audio. Yeah, I
think that's really interesting perspective. I'd totally agree with that. I think that there's a place for both. And you have to kind of figure out how you're going to make a presence and both just traditional podcasting. And then platforms like clubhouse. Mm hmm.
And then I mean, moving on to just PR pros. How should they actually go about pitching podcasts you get maybe get their CEO or one of the other, I guess influencers within their own company to be on a be a guest because there is some convincing to a podcast. So you have to basically, for me, as a podcaster, myself, you have to show value. So how can they actually show value that this guest is valuable? Because I get messages? Like, Hey, I just want to be on your podcast. I'm like, does not any value to me whatsoever. Yeah,
great. Yeah, you're right. I always tell the team that you're not selling a company, you're selling a story. And we do that anyway, in public relations. And I think that in traditional media, it's, it's a little bit more timely, and maybe you are trying to tap into maybe something that's happening current events wise. And perhaps trying to chime in on a on a news article just to be quoted to be that expert that's quoted in a story. I think podcasts it is about the full picture journey of who is this person that's going to be on your podcast and why should you care? Why would you want them on what do they have to say? What kind of experience do they have? What's their narrative? What kind of advice pieces like nuggets of advice can they bring to your audience? So it is A little bit different, I always say, the narrative piece is really important. And then maybe give like five things that might be something new to a particular podcast that that the client can bring to the conversation.
And she PR pros start to look at increasing their ad spend on podcasts, I'm pretty sure it's still kind of small. Because even though the stats are saying that podcasting is a huge industry, and there's billions of dollars, I pretty sure a lot of PR pros like I don't know about this, I just really want to dip my toes in it, I don't really want to spend too much ads, social media is even more expensive than it has been. And I'd rather spend my money on that instead. So I mean, what's in play with this one? How could you convince maybe the your boss that this is actually a pretty good place to spend more money on?
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a little that's a tricky question for me, because we don't necessarily deal with with advertising. We are more of a we're a PR agency, but just strictly dedicated to podcasts. So for us, it's more about getting our clients the interviews, and being able to take that content and repurposing it, putting on their social really showcasing who they are, what they do and explaining the company. I think that podcast advertising has a long way to go. I think it's a little bit challenging, because it's easy to show metrics. For Google AdWords, and social media platforms. I think podcasts, it's a little bit more challenging that hosts are collecting all that information, can share all that information. But if you think about how people are consuming podcasts, they're listening to it on their headphones, oftentimes, while they're in transit, maybe they're doing a task. So if you're advertising on a podcast, what are you going to do? What's that call to action that's going to make somebody stop what they're doing. And take action. One of those things where it's almost like a billboard where you're like you hear and you see things, and it's just this kind of constant in your face, from a consumer standpoint that you're finally like, oh, yeah, you know what, I actually have seen ads pop up. While I'm doing Google searches for this company. Also heard them on podcasts. I've seen them here. So it's kind of this collective, maybe in your Instagram feed. I think it kind of plays into this more brand awareness piece, versus like a direct buy. I think that that's a little bit more challenging.
And even from Mike more organic stuff and repurposing the content from your being a guest on podcast, what tools should PR pros look at to repurpose a lot of that, cuz there's a lot of different tools for that. Now, there's like highlighter, there's, and there's a bunch of different different ones for that one. So which ones should they use to repurpose the content, maybe cut it up for specific for social media, you have any tips or ones that you like to use, or your team?
Yeah, so we actually we work with notion to kind of like put all the content to gather kind of have a spot. So we actually do this for our clients. Once they're on a podcast, we take the audio, we turn it into audio, Graham's social posts, we transcribe them into blogs, you know, we do all these all these content pieces to give it to give the episodes more legs, we use Canva, quite often to create our visuals. And then we actually work with another actually a a woman who does all of our audio grams. So there are tons of tools out there that I think do a fantastic job. And I feel like that's a really important piece to implementing podcasts into a PR campaign is making sure that there's some some leverage from the episodes so that you are you're taking that content and you're putting it places to get extra exposure.
And even for transcribing I mean, there's different things for that. Do you have anything for the transcription side, you use one person do you use descript thing is another one that's actually pretty good using that stuff.
Yeah, we do have a content person that we utilize. But we've tested a couple I have a marketing director who handles most of that, but I know that she's worked with some some AI platforms that actually do a fantastic job, I mean, more so than just taking the audio and transcribing it directly, even adding some some flavor and some additional information that just makes the content piece more powerful. And that can be done for as little as $100 Anywhere between 50 and $100 and produce a really a really nice content people is,
and let's say if PR Pro or ran will actually want to start a podcast. What are some of the tips for them to keep in mind? Because I think a lot of people are like, Oh, just start a podcast. And it's easy and no, not really, from my perspective. But what are some tips to, for them to understand just how much work is into this,
it is a ton of hard work. And we talked about this a little bit before we went live. I always say hats off to any any podcast host, because it is. It's a lot of work. It's dedication, it's not something that you just start and expect to get a following right away. So think about how you're going to not only what are you going to say that maybe is different than what's already out there. There are 2.6 million podcasts. So making sure that it's, it's interesting enough that you can attract an audience, what's your intro music, your outro music? All the pieces that come together? And then how are you going to interview people? What's that process going to look like? Are you just going to work with your internal team? Is it going to be one person that's just a that's like a just a talk show one person talk show. So deciding on the format, how often you want to be publishing, I always tell people that I think it's important to have six podcasts, at least six that are ready to go. Once you decide that this is something that you want to pursue, and that will be beneficial for your organization. And that you're passionate about. You also have to really enjoy it. It's not easy to ask questions, be an active listener, I think it's journalism. And we all have our strong suits. Some people are fantastic writers, some people are great at talking, just kind of figuring out is this is this for you. I would I always recommend to go on another podcast before starting your own. Make sure that it's something that you really enjoy doing, because it is a lot of work.
And mind you she said she meant six podcast episodes, not actual six podcasts because there's a little bit of a difference. Don't actually start six different podcasts and see which one actually hits.
Yes, that's right. Yes. Thank you for the clarification.
I don't want to like freak anybody out be like I just started six, well, no, just six episodes of the podcast. That's all you need. Like, don't try to do six different ones. Because remember, that's the logo. That's the, if you're going to do each episode, different graphic, that's another thing you have to do. That's also the name. I mean, the name is always something as well. You said intro outro music, that's also true. Also, if you're going to be a solo, if you're going to be doing interviews if you're going to have a co host, and there's a lot going into it prior to actually doing it. Yeah. And show notes. That's true. I mean, there's no standard on shownotes. Trust me, I've researched this like crazy. There's no actual standard, like, everybody does something different.
Yeah. And you also have to be very thoughtful. What do you want from this podcast? Do you want more clients is this to be obviously I think, always should be informative in some way or another. But those shownotes are really important for for SEO. So if you want people to find you making sure that those show notes are, you're just mindful of all the things that need to go into that to make sure people can find you.
And then also, if you're going to be seasonal, if you're going to just only be episodic do I mean, like I said, You'd always have to figure that out. And I would say, Start, from my perspective, start on that specific, like, what's your what's your goal? Like? What's your goal of this whole thing? What are you wanting to achieve? Are you gonna do merch? Are you gonna do Patreon or one of those other ones as well, where you have memberships as well? So there's a lot going on with the monetization of that actual thing?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Or even if you even care to monetize it,
that's also true of your brand. And you don't really care if you're one person, you might care a little bit. But if you're just a brand, you might not care at all, you might be like, Hey, this is just for us to get publicity or organic reach, because it's actually pretty good organic reach if you do it right.
And also thinking about new clients, what a great way to approach a potential client, ask them if you want to be on their podcast, do you get to know everything about them, it just creates this intimacy and in a place where even some vulnerability that can can lead into a bigger conversation about how you might be able to engage with them.
That's true. I mean, it's a low barrier of like, hey, just be a guest my podcast. It's not gonna cost you anything set for time. And
yeah, yeah. So I know we have quite a few clients that not only go on podcasts, but also have their own and they use it as a lead gen mechanism.
And fun question for you. If you were to start a podcast, this would be a brand new podcast, what would you talk about?
Yeah, I actually had a podcast for a tiny bit of time until I realized how hard it was. And the podcast was called Civic syrup. We interviewed mine based in Colorado. So we interviewed local Colorado politicians, advocacy groups, so it was I'm not sure I would do that again. But I do think it was fun. And I and it is exactly what I needed at that time. So I think it served a purpose. I really think it's interesting to have maybe just a super short podcast, and asking just random questions. I mean, I like your your Are you a coffee or tea drinker? But I think it maybe do you use if you're eating a certain meal? Like are you going to? Maybe we name the meal? And do you use chopsticks or a fork? And all just kind of random questions, maybe showing a picture of something? And what would be your go to dancing outfit out of these three? So we're having a little visual piece to it as well. So not just strictly audio, but I think that would be kind of interesting.
Nice. Any final thoughts for listeners?
Yeah, I mean, I think that if you are not incorporating podcasts into your PR campaigns, I would highly encourage you to do so I think it is a great medium to have your clients just talk and actually like a really, depending on the audience size could even be a potential like learning piece for them to continue their media training, might be able to prep them before going on a bigger show, or maybe television. It's a great medium to incorporate into any campaign. All right,
thank you, Brandy for joining PR 360 and sharing all your knowledge about
podcasts. Yeah, thanks for having me. And thank
you for joining pr 360. As always, please subscribe to Pier 360 on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify and Amazon musically review. It really does help with the rankings. Let us know how we're doing and join us next week as we're talking to another great thought leader in the peer industry. Alright guys, stay safe. Go check out you could actually do a podcast or not. A failure is always a good learning experience. And see you next week later.