welcome again to fearless presents. I am here with Lisa and Justin McKinney, two highly skilled physical therapists that have a practice in Prescott, Arizona. And Lisa does more brain integration than physical therapy at the moment and I adore these two practitioners, they recently sent me a beautiful email about some experiences that they had after Justin took my online vagus nerve decompression course. And it's for as endlessly fun as it is to change someone's life as my client, I have learned that it's just so much more rewarding than I ever imagined and delightful to hear the stories of how other people use are using my techniques and integrating them into their practice to create change. And I know Lisa, what the first piece really started with you.
Yes, it Yeah, for sure. Um, so after I had my second COVID vaccination, I immediately developed all the heart palpitations passed out on the Mexican restaurants like I mean, it was it was just it was really horrible for I don't know, for a couple of months, like, just things were not right. But a month after though, I started developing a lot of digestive issues, particularly just like a lot of pain, like I felt like acid but wasn't reflux. And, and this went on for about 18 months, like, you know, the heart arrhythmias got better. I didn't pass out anymore wasn't having like, the menstrual problems anymore. But like, this acid was like this was getting worse and worse and worse. And, you know, I did naturopath wasn't helping finally, like went to the end. And of course, they're just saying like, go get scoped and I'm like, I don't have insurance and I don't want to get scoped and, and and nobody really had a better answer. And we met this fabulous functional nutritionist who found out like I did have SIBO like I wasn't I didn't, I no longer had the migrating motor complex there with it the part that like, have your intestine that kind of cleans out all the bad bacteria because my vagus nerve wasn't working. And so I kind of like, done some research and figured this all out. And I was just like, Well, okay, see, like, you know, everybody's treating this vagus nerve thing with like, talk therapy and counseling. I was like, but I know Justin who did all these specializes in now is like, visceral manipulation and vascular and neuro manipulation, like surely, surely, you can do something. But we'll just didn't know how to put it all together. Right. So I was like, I was scouring the internet and then one day, Melanie, I, I found you and I was just like, I think I gave you a call, like immediately. Just like, Please help me.
Yeah. Well, I remember we did chat. Yeah. So you know, for all the the spotlighting the vagus nerve is getting these days, there's so not really anyone talking about it. Like it's a mechanical
Right, right. So I was just like, but this is a physical like, it's 80% is down, you know, below the brain, why are we treating Why is everybody treating this like, like talk therapy? Anyway, so yeah, when I talk to you and I was just like get almost immediately and you also recommended next level neuro? Which I also did, yes, yeah, just very, actually was a really great course and I loved it. But as soon as Justin took your course and did the things I think it was in the first session I think the next day like I had my anxiety levels were through the roof like it was uncontrollable anxiety and it was like all on my throat because he did all of the esophagus and like pericardial stuff and I think what else to do
just just about everything they you know,
like flip it I was flipping out. So he came home from work I was like gotta get home. Any fix it again and like, my stomach pain was gone. Like it was gone. It was so much better and then it you know, then it was kind of like 90% gone since then. And so that's I got COVID It came back a little bit. Since then, it was just so night and day difference after 18 months of having like all day, stomach pain and acid
That's so fantastic. Well, I'll tell you your other success story I have such a personal interest in. Because my husband has this issue. And I have not put him on my table long enough that was like, Oh, I've got to try this. But I was so blown away by the story of your patient with knee pain, where you did the vagus nerve evaluation, and that helped clear the knee pain. But then tell the story of what happened when he came back.
Yeah, so I had this claim. And I have had no shortcomings as far as ways of looking at him, you know, I'm looking at him from a traditional orthopedic output, you know, I'm looking at him from a visceral aspects, vascular neuro aspect. And, you know, just run the full gamut. And he's still having knee pain. So I'm like, Okay, let's take a look at this from a vagus nerve perspective. So I, you know, did the evaluation, like you had taught in your course. And sure enough loss of terminal or the screw home mechanism of the knee? You know, he has the uncompensated, hip flexion loss, like, the I think the hallux was limited. So just like, oh, my gosh, this is this is vagus nerve, we're going to treat vagus nerve. So I, I went ahead and treated him. And he's like, yeah, man, that really worked with my knee pain. But let me tell you, what else, you know, I'm like, Well, what's going on? He's like, Well, I was having I was having ups, not obstructive, but central sleep apnea. And he has a machine CPAP machine, and he has a readout that goes to his phone every morning. So it shows him how many episodes of sleep apnea he has during the night. And I mean, and he showed me the chart, and it was just dramatic. It just his his episodes of sleep apnea went down, you know, at least by a third of what they were the very next day.
Well, I think well, yeah. Lee, while Lisa emailed me that went from 35 to 40. To like three to five. Yeah,
yeah, ridiculous. Yeah. Like, this
is the day before I saw you. And he showed me where the graph was really high. And then he's like, this is the day after I saw you. And it was like, Oh, it was really, really low.
And it stayed right. It stayed for like a month or something because he lives far away from you guys. So it's not like you're you just saw him the next day? Well, my husband has sleep apnea. And so I like and I'm really, he doesn't have central sleep apnea. But that's super interesting to me, because I do know, somebody that that does. So I will have to, to share that with her as well. So I love like, and I've lived in this world of physical therapists like you all that are super highly skilled and really driven with his osteopathic and neuro skills. And I'm curious what your, you know, go I think out in the collective. A lot of people just think PTS do exercises, you know, or PTS are known for just teaching you straight leg raises and other things that you could do at home or torturing you with boring things that you might be able to do at the gym. And I would love to know, what do you think drives you to like to really figure that out and to have you know, and to collect all of these, all of these skills. And what delights you about, about collecting all these, all of these things?
I think, you know, number one, one of the biggest drivers that makes me sick out high level skills is I just know, in my heart, this is what I was created to do. So at a baseline, you know, when you talk to people about their job, their occupation, and looking for that fulfillment, that is what fulfills me I am doing the thing that I was created to do. So as I add to my repertoire of skill sets, it just kind of helps me become alive in that sense of like, yep, this, this is what I was meant to do. Like I do have that kinesthetic ability to feel things in the body. And it's, you know, so that's, you know, a huge primary driver. And then I would say, after that, just seeing the lives that are changed by it, you know, like you were talking about, you know, we tend to get some of the clientele that funnel through the system. They've tried everything, they've gone to other PT clinics, and, you know, they've been just bombarded with flexibility and strengthening exercises, you know, till the cows come home. And they, they can't get back to the life that they want, which is, you know, they want to be able to do the things that they want to be able to do and not have to sit there and pop pain pills afterwards, you know, they want to be able to go for a walk, they want to ride a bike or something. So when we, you know, Coach that body, and just use another, another skill set, something that the body has never ever experienced, or helping to find one of the sources, why that body is stuck. And, you know, just the delight that comes through it, you know, I have a lady who's 75 years of age, and she was barely able to walk and she sent me a card with a photo that she took of her at the top of Mount Humphreys in Flagstaff, Arizona, which is over 12,000 feet,
Elijah track
now and she's like, I've always wanted to climb that mountain and I did it with my daughter and I am so blessed, and I'm so happy to be able to do that. So you know, these stories with these people that are coming to you, and they have no idea what the outcomes going to be, you know, they don't know that they're going to be able to get that that goal. You know, they're they're happy sometimes just get out of bed and move around without having pain. So, you know, when you see them just glowing, and they're like, oh my gosh, I'm I can't wait to tell you what I did. Like, you know, I went on this amazing hike with my, my, you know, kids and my grandkids that I haven't seen in a month or whatever. It's like wow, that's, that's what drives me. Right there.
Now it's so good. Lisa, I would love to I'll say first I've Yeah, I call it my drug of choice has been my drug of choice for for a long time at least I would love to hear a little bit about how you stepped away from PT a little bit to do more brain integration and other neuro base things that are not considered so much pte.
They don't they're not considered at all. Yeah, I think I like over the years like I was just seeing PT being utilized in our system is just like it just it was kind of almost a futile effort in the in the traditional system that we kind of squish it in whether it's like the Medicare or just that, you know, the paid insurance system. And I just found it so frustrating and I think I have like maybe like a slightly stubborn or defiant type of drive in me that just like it's always just like always, kind of like it just made me like really unsettled, frustrated, anxious. And I'm just like I'm, I can't live the best of my potential because I can't do the things I need to do you know. So, gosh, after a lot of there have been some it's been a crooked road to get out for sure. Yeah, a lot of different things. But so now I'm finally like, This is it. This is amazing. So jump doing brain integration, which is a Kinesiology sort of like, you know, Kira, chiropractors are doing applied kinesiology, that this is a Kinesiology modality that focuses on distressing the neuro wires, but specifically in the brain, but throughout the body as well. And so, you know how I guess I would connect that with PT. I mean, a lot of this is like, it's cognitive, it's how your brain is processing it, the limbic system is huge in it. But what I'm enjoying now also is like bringing up the body part, so you could actually, you know, get rid of people's pain, improve their body functions with this, and it's like, one thing and MPT that I, I just find so, you know, limiting is like, because we're always saying like, you know, again, like do the exercises, do the exercises, and, you know, and as PTS I think we're probably all guilty of it. Like if they're not getting better, well, they must be noncompliant, right? It's their fault. They're not getting better. It's not because, you know, couldn't possibly be because I don't know enough or I'm looking at it the wrong way. You know, it's their fault. And that's, but then they're always given these diagnosis, you know, so for instance, like, today, like I had this lady and she's had this risk these risk problems, let's just like risk pain. Don't nobody knows what's causing it. She's had it for years, and it's arthritis, it's never going to get changed because you're getting old. And like that, that makes me so mad. I was like, No, we're gonna make this better. And sure enough, like this was her second visit, but I saw her about about four weeks ago and did the Kinesiology things and some brain integration and she had zero pain. Like she went from like a seven to eight out Pain, doing, you know, the things that mattered, which was her yoga jars, shuffling cards, you know, just manually, you know, fine motor things. It took like having zero pain, you know, and some of it came back, but not that bad. And now we're, you know, we kind of it wasn't one visit. So it's just like, so fun. It's just, it's so stinking fun. And every day now is just like, what miracle is gonna happen?
Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely consider it like a, like a magic show. Or like, my it truly is, like, you know, like, are my favorite techniques? I call them party tricks. Yeah, it kind of just, you know, because they unlock. Yeah, because it unlocks so, so much. And I definitely got into private practice, because I knew there was a better way to do this. It's like, I don't have to be bound to this paradigm. And, you know, towards the end of my last time, in a, in an outpatient a traditional outpatient clinic, I had this group of middle aged women with knee pain, and all of a sudden, none of them were getting better. And I had a technique that I usually use for anterior femoral cutaneous nerve that had always worked great. And all of a sudden, it was like it stopped working. And so then I was like, Well, I'm going to reevaluate everybody. And I ended up treating vagus nerve in them, and then they were all magically better. So right, right, well, and I was already in vagus nerve at that point, but I only used it when they weren't getting better. With stuff I was doing closer to the body part that they were there for, you know, so like literally these No, these neat patients, most of them, I decompressed, the vagus nerve at the base of their skull to get them better. And I had the support of the practice owner and administration to like we weren't, we didn't have to only treat the joint that we got referred for, we are encouraged to have a whole body approach, but not every practice does that. And some specifically limit their their practitioners to only look at the joint that the patient was, you know, was referred to, which really just does an incredible disservice to the person. So in physical therapy and in rehab in general, like, where do we think we're helping where we actually aren't? Like, Lisa, I love what you said about like, the limbic system? Because certainly, physical pain and emotional pain are so locked into the limbic system. Yeah, for sure. You know, and I sometimes think I remember being really amazed. In the same outpatient clinic, I just referenced that a new grad, like some of the patients that she would get better, and I was like, like, it was just always interesting me that she just created this magical joyful space. And I'm like, I'm like, you know, like, I had a bazillion more skills than she did. But people still got better. And it makes me you know, and it's kind of speaks to that limbic connection and how that human connection, even if you're not applying it in a specific or prescriptive or highly skilled manner, is, you know, can really unlock somebody's pain.
Right. Well, and I think the body, you know, innately wants to heal itself. Right. And it just, it needs the, I don't know, I think when you go in there with you even. I mean, Justin is highly extremely highly skilled. I am I am less skilled in that area. But I think I would like to think and I know from my other practices that even if I go in with the intention of helping, like the body still wants to heal itself, that it just needs to go in there and, like, be a cheerleader, to an extent. You know, it's the intention is everything. And so like, yeah, that's your choice, joyful space, the intention touched, like, I think that's so important.
Yeah, absolutely. And kind of getting back to your question where, where do PTS think they're helping that they're really not, you know, it's kind of going back to how I graduated college. We were only taught to think in okay, this is a bone problem, a muscle problem, a tendon, tendon problem, or, you know, maybe a ligament issue you know, and so we we have to view everything in light of is it tight? Well, better stretch it, is it weak, okay, better strength, you know, and then if that doesn't work, holy cow, well, then we'll get a gimmick. So get an ultrasound unit and wow, you know, the research shows it changes the month like so they just keep going down a rabbit hole laser or instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization, let's scour the thing. You know, I'm not saying that those are bad. But once again, if you're not looking like you said that the whole entire body as a whole as a system that's being driven by different influences. So a neurological influence or a visceral influence, you know, if you're just a segmental wing, chopping a body into parts and treating it just as a body part, and then just throwing some kind of modality if it's not getting better, you know, that's, that's, that's not really helping, and that's not, that's not, you know, helping the person that's not helping the healthcare system, you know, that leads to greater costs and just wasted healthcare dollars, when you know, all you need to do is start looking at, well, why is that hamstring not releasing? You know, it doesn't need to be stretched to the cows come home? Or is there some neurologic agent in there, you know, is there something, you know, like, classic example, with your course, you know, go to the diaphragm, that thing has so many interactions with the shoulder with the hip with the pelvis, you know, with all these interactions, you know, if you can just get into that diaphragm and look at the tone of the diaphragm and, and do some things to bring normal tone back to that, and then all of a sudden, your hips open up, your hamstrings start to, you know, become flexible again. So yeah, just kind of viewing things in a different light is, I think, where we need to go with it.
Yeah, I've been really crushed at where physical therapy has gone in the last 27 years, I graduated in 1996, because I had a super progressive education with lots of integrated orthopedic and neuro stuff. And I was so excited. And the worst conference I've ever been to, was the American Physical Therapy Association's orthopedic conference, like it just crushed my soul. I can imagine because of how based I was, like, this was my physical therapy, this was my fifth PT 101, the year I went with the speaker, like I was just so crushed, that this is what they were marketing to board certified orthopedic, clinical specialists. And, you know, but I, we really in this, I love your your point about the, the technology or getting a gadget, because we, we don't really view ourselves as a piece of technology, when we really are with this amazing piece of technology. And when you can get it all to work well, it works really well. And you don't need the, you know, you don't always need the external stuff, certainly medicine does some amazing things. But, you know, and the research, I actually recently just took a continuing education course on thermal modalities that and it just I'm grateful, I was grateful for my level of nervous system regulation, because it just sort of like it sort of makes the case that none of it works. But they're trying to make the case that you know, that it does, more, you know, or like, it was just, it was really interesting, you know, it was just interesting in that way, because I mean, it would have made me want to like go, you know, punch a wall or something in another state of my own my own dysregulation. You know, when I talk about fearless presence, you know, for me, that's bringing your expertise and your intuition together, you know, that you're bringing all of yourself to the table and not parsing yourself up, up, or out. And as a clinician, the, I think that when you fully show up, like that becomes medicinal in its own way. And I would love to like what is bringing all of yourself to the table, or all of yourself to your clients mean to you?
I think number one, you know, being intentional every day. So as you're getting ready to see a client, you go in with the intention that, okay, my interaction with this client will be beneficial. You know, I always pray before I go to work, and I'm always receptive and pretty much like okay, I'm here, I'm gonna tool use me to help help these people that I see today. So just kind of bringing that into the equation, but also going in knowing that you will get the information as you're working with that client. So being receptive, which can some days you know, obviously when you when you see a challenging client can put that to the test. And that's when you have to start picking up on those subtle messages that you're getting with your hands on that client with, you know, as you're watching the movement of the client as you're going through the evaluate process, you know, just allowing nothing to be set in stone at that point and everything to be fluid. Like, it's, it's, I'm able to be taken in any direction that this, this body needs me to be taken into. So, and then obviously having confidence in the skill set of technique that, you know, oh, that, that looks like this, you know, then going into that tissue and being able to confidently work in that tissue. And then I think the, the other part is, you know, just the educational aspect with the client, you know, so, you know, bringing them in teaching them that this is a natural thing that's happened to them, you know, it's a natural response that their body is showing up with, and, you know, the, the way that we're going to help get them out of this is also in a natural way, and it's working with my interaction with their body, you know, talking about that 15 minutes, where the clinician and the client, you know, kind of click together, where you start to be able to experience kind of that subconscious interaction. So yeah, just reassuring them, like this is okay. And there will be a good outcome. It might change, you know, and just kind of relieving their fears that if things look a little different tomorrow, or you have a different different pain pattern, you know, that is part of the healing process.
Lisa, do you want to speak to that for yourself?
Yeah. It's a lot of what Justin said, I guess. So, you know, I think intent going in there within a certain intention for this client is really important, and just getting myself like, present enough to create that safe space for them, I think is also for, you know, for the body and for them to be whatever they are. To trust that I'm enough, you know, for that, that, that they're there for a reason, I'm here for a reason, and whatever it is, like, I'm enough, and still, like, hold that in humility. You know, I think, just Yeah, trust, but it's, it's, I feel like sometimes, you know, like, the body's taking you into directions, and you're like, I don't know why I'm doing this or what this is, and you know, to sit down, I'm like, a pastor must be thinking, I'm crazy, you know, just like, No, I'm going with it that we're going with it can double down and I'm doing it. And it just works out in like, such amazing ways. So yeah, like just committing to it, I guess, committing to what my intuition tells myself,
I completely agree. And I have I've always had a very similar approach that like exploratory approach for that it's kind of like a puzzle or a you know, an archaeological exploration, you know, like to figure out kind of where the, you know, what, what, what is happening here and what is that bigger picture and, you know, I know you guys know when you work with people that have been around the block a few times and seen other people and still not responded to the to the intervention, you can often find, like 100 things like you could possibly document 100 Different things that might be going on, but finding that one thing that's going to unlock the other 99 Or maybe 95 of the 99 is sort of is like that's the game that I played with myself for a long time. And I think when I was a young therapist, I didn't realize how valuable that game really was.
For that you can just ask the body what you
were supposed to zactly right you can bypass all of it at the body we're literally show you like subjectively and object objectively like it'll just like if you follow the tissue tension and fly up there it is. Mind blowing Yeah, no, it is it it's so yeah, the ya know, the body definitely has its own language and we don't you know, that's something I really wish that that was out there on a more collective scale like how to talk to your body because certainly by the time somebody shows up in any physical therapists office, their body's been screaming no for some period of time. And the person has not been listening. Justin, I love it. We haven't talked about this yet but in looking at your website and seeing your that you do bike fitting, also that you've done that I know that you're you said before we started recording that you're phasing out of that are getting a lot little bit away of that, but I used to do bike fitting too. And I love that just the, you know, sort of these parallel paths that we're on, you know, because bike fitting is a really fantastic skill. And it's a great thing to do with a physical therapist because they can't, because they can adjust your body and your bike.
Absolutely. And that's, that's kind of what I offered to is, you know, looking at the body for an evaluation for the bike, you know, are there areas that are not working or not flexible enough to even comfortably beyond that, that bike, and then also doing the bike fitting for them. So, you know, customizing it so that it fits them like a glove, you know, so it works really well with their body. So they're not fighting some some geometry that is absolutely working against their body.
What do you wish patients knew or the general population knew about keeping themselves? Healthy? That they don't?
We could be here all night with with that question. I mean, if you just look at the hydration of the body, I mean, I wish people knew that they need to actually drink water throughout the day. I mean, we're in higher elevation. So we're a mile high, we live in a desert, I've been to a vascular seminar, and they were like, hands down, the worst thing you can do to the heart is become dehydrated, you know, the blood thickens, it gets like jelly is viscous. And that poor heart is just pumping away. And I'm just like, Man, that is like, you didn't even you're not even born with like a congenital defect of your heart. You're just literally wearing the stupid thing out over time, because you're so stubborn, and you just don't want to drink water. You know, like how many older adults that we know, have, you know, UTIs and they go into confusion, and then they have falls and break hips. And it's like, that they don't want to get up and pee, you know.
Stay hydrated all the time. Yeah.
So yeah, and then like, if you have a problem on both sides of your body. Please look centrally for the answer to that problem. You know, I've seen so many, if not both risks that have gone bad. Bilateral plantar fasciitis, you know, clients that, you know, some some of these poor clients are having shock therapy and foot surgeries by podiatrists and things aren't getting better. And then by the time they come and see me, you know, the things have just gotten so bad. And you're like, hey, let's look at your pelvis. How about that your sacral plexus is being compressed by a visceral structure. You go in and you mobilize that tissue and tada, obviously, all the their pain and their feet are getting better. And you know, they don't have to have surgeries on their feet anymore. So I think just knowing that, if you have a problem on both sides of your body, don't let somebody segmental ly treat you that, you know, they need to look centrally for the answer to that problem. Man, yeah, just
a fancy clinic with a big gym isn't probably the one you actually want to go to.
It's not the one you wear. Yeah, that's a good that is a very good consumer tip you want the one with with less equipment. Equipment is better. Not, not more.
In ematic jeans. Yeah, if you have a foot problem looking up the kinematic chain to see if there's a knee or hip pelvis issue. If you have a hand risk problem looking at the kinematic chain to the elbow, shoulder neck. Yeah. I mean, if they knew that they would, you know, that would be a huge help in our healthcare systems.
Well, and that's a big message for clinicians to you know, I mean, not just for physical therapists, but even for physicians and physician's assistants and nurse practitioners, and everyone's so crunched for time in our modern system, that they don't always feel like they have the time to screen up the chain, you know, because those wrist and elbow problems are almost without exception, a double crush situation, you know, that there's something happening at the neck and, you know, as well there's at least two spots that are where there's mechanical, like significant mechanical compression that's driving the pain wherever it is, you know, and this value if I was gonna say, like, one thing that I really wish people knew was how was that their visceral structures and their nerves have biomechanics to that they have movement that they need this freedom of movement. And it's palpable, you know, and it contrib It's like it's not like muscles are, I'd be curious to know what you think like I just find muscles are really never the problem. They're a symptom, pretty low failure react in the body,
like the body will allow the muscles before it'll allow the viscera and the blood vessels to get hurt. So it's all that sense of safety, right? So back to like, the nervous system stuff, like your body needs to feel safe. And your all the movement patterns are kind of kind of like developed around, like, how the safe the body is in a given area. More or less wood?
Yeah, I mean,
no, yeah. Absolutely well, and like I learned very early, by my visceral mentor, to, to think of things like, like a rounded back a kyphotic posture is really trying to support the aorta. It's just following the aortic arch. Yeah. And, you know, and your body's gonna lock down. You know, like you said, around an organ around your heart before it's gonna, it's gonna protect that above everything
else. Absolutely. I always tell my clients, I'm like, you might have a scoliosis, you might have a kyphosis. But if I kicked you in your stomach, and then you know, you're holding your stomach and you're bent over and you walked into a chiropractor office, they're gonna be like, Oh, look, you're bent over, let me fix your spine. And it's not, you know, it's not a spine issue. It's a visceral issue. You know, the body will protect the high priority tissue, every time the spine will bend and accommodate to the viscera to the nerve to the vascular, every time it's, you know, it's not willing to use a low priority tissue, like a muscle or joint, you know, I mean, like, that doesn't matter to the body, it wants to keep you, you know, alive with your blood pumping to your body. It wants to keep the neuro intact from your brain to the object that that nerve is going to functioning in all protected at all costs. So absolutely.
Well, Justin, Lisa, thank you so much for this discussion. We could you know, in a few years when we roll the world it will all be be different. We can but tell people how they can get in touch with you.
So for myself, I have a website Prescott pt.com. It talks about what I do talks about how to get a hold of us with our phone number contact information.
That's probably the best way so Prescott pd.com is the best for me about for you.
Yeah, so my website is partners and bi.com for partners and brain integration. And that is brain integration kind of do deals with the electrical connections of the nervous system. limbic system initially created to fix kind of remedy learning situations. So add ADHD dyslexia does amazing with concussions, anxiety, PTSD, sensitivities, allergies, all sorts of really amazing things. Yes
Well, yeah, no, it is. Yes, well, I hope for everybody listening that if you need a physical therapist or a neuro practitioner that you find somebody that is as endlessly delighted in the outcomes as the three of us finds as much joy and joy in their in their work and you know, and knows that, you know, has that open mindset that change is always possible that there's a way to solve it and that you just need to figure out how to open up the solution.
Thank you so much, Melanie, thank you. Thank you for your course because it just I'm so grateful for the work that you put out there so that oh, it just changed everything for me so I'm so grateful
Yeah, well you're so welcome and I'm so like I said like I'm so like it really like just makes my heart want to burst wide open you know or like that. When I you know, when I hear that I didn't know until I really dove in full time or mostly full time to teaching like how I just hadn't really considered that and so it's really thank you all for I'm glad that the universe I'm sorry, you had to go through the long COVID But I'm glad the universe brought us together. So who We could so that we could have this conversation and you could have your transformation and I look forward to keeping in touch. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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