Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the all the things ADHD podcast. Oh,
the feelings?
No. Like, I am one of your co host Lee Skallerup Bessette and I am back home from New Orleans.
Woot or boohoo depending how you feel about travel. And I am. Listen to me enunciate the other one of your co hosts, Amy Morrison hoping that I keep all my words straight today.
It doesn't really matter. It's fine. No, they all get it. It's only the the AI transcribing
program core robot that's going to transcribe our crosstalk full of slang. Oh, I haven't looked at the transcript for last week yet. I really am wondering out all of our French slang. Yeah. Turned out as Yeah, can I tell you, Lee before we get started the very ADHD thing I just did in order to show up here, precisely one minute late. Go for it. I was standing 10 feet away from the computer in my hallway. Watch the time tick by but I really needed to find the right Leslie Knope GIF, to send to my husband over text message. Because I can't really move my wrists right now, because I just shoveled what feels like 800 pounds of snow, because it's falling right now. But it's also falling and melting. But then tonight, it's going to be minus 20. So it's like if you don't shovel it, right? It's gonna be giant blocks of solid ice giant blocks of solid dice that you're going to have to chip away at with an axe, you know, whatever. And so I was texting him that I hate him. And the reason my arms hurt so much. And then I did it right now, because I knew I had to do it fast. So I could get it done. Before I had this meeting with you. And so like I pulled the trigger on that decision, and I like went outside and I did it. I was like, Yes, I have five whole minutes, I had like a chance to get my drink. So I don't die of being perched during the podcast, and I had like all my stuff together. And then I was late anyways, because I really needed to find the right gift to send to my husband. And the kicker is he's in a meeting right now. He's not going to get it right now. Anyways, but I was like this thought isn't complete, and I knew I was gonna be late. I was like, fuck it. I'm in now. Right? So I injured myself I've committed so I could get here on time. Yeah. And then I had to complain about injuring myself to get here on time such that it made me late. And that is a gift I offer to our listeners today. Is that you probably do that too.
Yeah, sounds about right. But it's good, though, that you shoveled the snow. It is hurt. But it's yeah. Oh, hey, that's the worst. Oh, I haven't. I don't miss living in Canada.
Click right.
We keep moving a little bit further and further north. And every time we do My husband always like this is the furthest north, we're going down this North record now
no more. I got a pandemic metaphor. While I was out there, I was listening to recordings of this one Chopin Prelude that I'm learning to play, because I'm at the stage now where I'm trying to add some expression into it. And I'm like listening to things. And so I was doing that and shoveling and cursing and thinking about the gifts I was going to send to my husband and thinking about making sure I got here on time. And then I had another thought at the same time, which was I was reading in the paper here that we're not really getting much more snow than we usually do. So it's not like you know, the snowiest winter ever. And yet my trees are half buried now. Like I couldn't unplug my Christmas lights if I want it because they're under three feet of snow. Like yeah, mushy snow. And I'm like, the reason it hurts so much to shovel now is not just that it's slushy, but also that I have to heat it up to about shoulder height, so that I can throw it above the pile in my yard that's already there. And it's like, oh, this is like the pandemic Right? Like people will give you a number saying like there's fewer people dying now or like most people are vaccinated, but it doesn't matter because like it accumulated like the snow banks in my yard. So even though we can say like, this isn't really any more snow than we usually get in Waterloo, but usually in Waterloo, we have like three big melts, right? So go right back down to bare grass like four or five times and then it'll snow a foot and a half and then we'll all melt but now it gets just accumulated, accumulated accumulated. So these comparisons like this should be fine. It's like you're only getting six inches of snow today like that's not that bad, but it's like six inches on top of like what didn't melt yet. And I think that's going to help me understand a little bit more for myself what it feels like dragging my ass through the end of this pandemic is like maybe things are getting better but my trees are still buried up to the first branches. My coping trees are still buried and it requires much more effort to come Even the trivial amounts of snow pandemics, snow that are falling in my life.
Yeah, I think that's a good metaphor.
Thanks. You still trying to get into Twitter jail there? What are you doing?
No, I'm, I'm trying. So this is why I was late. So I I've been, I was tweeting something and I was doing a tweet thread. And then I thought, Okay, finally, I'm going to upload something that I've wanted to share. But I've been haven't done it yet. So I uploaded it. And then I went to tweet it. And Twitter was like, No, sorry. No, and I think I was in Twitter jail. And now I'm not in Twitter jail anymore. And so like you with the GIF. I have to post this goddamn article as a part of my Twitter thread. Because that's who I am.
It's so funny. It's so funny, because like, I'm interrupting the beginning of our podcast to tell Oh, I had an idea. Oh, I have to tell you guys about this, even though it's not in the plan. And you are like, definitely 30% Paying attention because I see you looking at your other screen. And you're like, Ah, ha, ha.
Oh, yes, no, and the metaphor and the feeling overwhelmed by the snowbank of the of the pandemic,
there will be a quiz. Yeah, gosh, I
hate quizzes.
So let's get our shit together now.
Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Alright, so today, I wanted to talk to you about an earlier in the week. And we had some stuff going on in my own house. And it gave me the idea that something we haven't really talked about, shockingly, at least not explicitly is how do you make decisions when you're neurodivergent. And the challenge that we often have in making decisions. And so that what prompted this for me is that, you know, we had a swim meet last weekend, I, you know, because I'm so good at planning that I go on a trip to New Orleans, get home at 130 in the morning, and then immediately on Saturday, turn around and go to a swim meet to coach because that's, that's how I roll. And so it's been a bit, you know, the training schedule for my son for everyone has been a bit sketchy because of snow because of weather because of other things going on. You know, my son just started middle school this year, Middle School is more academically challenging. He hasn't been on because I've said, I've said this during the pandemic, because during the pandemic and remote schooling, he was able to create an environment that was ideal for him to learn in, he went off his meds. And when we started school back up again, he didn't want to go back on them. And, you know, he's he's 12 Now 13. And, um, you know, he has that I want to give my kids agency and choice as much as I might disagree with that decision. It was an even if he was on his medication, he he's grown six, seven inches and put on like, around how many pounds just being a teenage boy. And so I doubt the dosage. So even worked when he was, you know, so much fun. And so he's been coming home from school exhausted, he's been not really going to practice regularly, when he is that practice, he has trouble paying attention and really focusing in and he also is he is like me and so far is that he internalizes all of this stuff. Mm hmm. And so we went to the SWAMI and he didn't do well at all on Saturday, and just completely fell apart. Right? Then we went to practice on Monday, and the other coach talked to him and said, Look, right, I understand that you're disappointed in the swim meet that you had this weekend. But you should also understand that you know, the work and the kind of work that you're putting in, in practice, is not what you need to be doing in order to go best times at the swimming. Right. And so he says to him, he says, not in a mean way, not in any kind of pressure way, because we're kind of low key Swim Club for this. It's not like, either shape up or quit. It's just like, you have to decide for yourself what kind of swimmer you want to be. Right? And if you just want to come here, and have fun and be with your friends and sort of do it, then that's fine. But then don't be disappointed. When you don't do well. This one means right. And, and it seemed to go well, and he said, but if you do want to work hard, but here are the ways we can focus on this and all of these kinds of things. And, and so it apparently went well and then he just like completely spiraled. Right. And my husband put it so well. And I was like really impressed with this is it he said well, he has to make a decision. And he is currently experiencing every single one of the possible consequences at once.
Yes, yes. GD the time knife. We've all seen it.
Yes. Yeah. The The time knife and so this is an end, he doesn't he doesn't want to decide, right? He just doesn't want to decide, um, because he can and even my husband went to talk to him. And he comes downstairs shaking his head. And he's like, I'm like, what happened? Well, he just played out all of the possible consequences up till his death. Right. Right, like, Huh?
Okay.
And and this is this is something that that and then you and I mentioned this and you and I were kind of talking about it because this is something that I think a lot of neurodivergent struggle with. Is this the time knife, right? There's there's now not now, but not now is all not now. There isn't like an extended future. It's just all one not now, all
of it. Yeah, all of it butterfly flapping its wings in Shanghai, whatever it is, the decision that you make right now will spin out towards eternity, altering the timeline and your destiny forever, even if the decision you're trying to make is like, do I want the fruit on the bottom yogurt? Or do I want the stirred yogurt? Yeah, it becomes just much too conscious, consequential? And then you can't decide anything? Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think some of the issue there, too, is that because often, we have multiple narratives running in our heads simultaneously. Like this is one problem. One problem is you can see so many an infinite potential number of decisions that could be made, that you start to shuffle them around in your head trying to optimize them, and you're never going to find the best one like so you don't decide anything. So that is like, part one. Part two is complete overwhelm, right, where it's like, a pig, dog pig, dog loaf of bread system error, like in like the Mitchell's versus the machines, right when the AI robots can't figure out what the dog is, and they blow up from trying just simply to understand what the thing in front of them isn't. It's a dog, or maybe a pig, or a loaf of bread. system error. So like, that happens to many of us, too. It's like, I don't see 100 possibilities. For every decision, I just see a wall of the possibility of possibilities that I can't even bear to contemplate. And then a burning smell comes out of one of my ears. And I have to lay down, right? So there's like, I can't, I can't figure out what the criteria are by which I would make this decision is one thing, or the entire destiny of the human race hinges on what type of yogurt I'm going to have for lunch, just let me think about what the absolute best possibility would be. And in both cases, you run out of spoons, because you're devoting way too much energy to what might be often quite a small decision. Do I do the laundry first? Or do I get in the shower first, right? Like we Oh, and then you do neither? And then you do? Twitter, but Right? Yeah, on the pros. I'm gonna make a pro and con list if that's I need my husband to come and like, kick my ass basically, and say, I'm choosing for you and it's shower. Right? Figure it out while you're in the shower. And then you're like, okay, thank God, and what it was not like I was not able to do the things I was not able to decide, right? And now Leo is not able to decide. Yeah, and many of us are not able to decide, and that's just hard.
Yeah, it is. And it's and it's, you know, on the on the, on the one hand, and again, it's it's you want to help them because they have to make decisions, right? Like, this is just life. Yeah. But on the other hand, you're just like, you see this, as you said, you smell the burning, and you see the smoke, and you're just like, Oh, I'm too big. Yeah, too much. We've, maybe this is a little too much for you right now. And so it's and but then, you know, then then it's like, it's one thing to have your husband go and say take a shower, it's another one for me to say, you're gonna keep swimming, here's the end, here's how you're gonna do it. Right? Where, you know, it's kind of like, like, and he's very much like, he tries to minimize his decisions as well, where he has a very like, like you do in a lot of ways. He has a very set routine. Right? He gets up at the same time every day. He eats almost I almost the same thing for breakfast every day. He leaves the house at the same time every day. And I think one of the other things that's really been challenging for him this year. It is He likes the predictability of it. He likes the kind of that that set expectations but also got, again, limiting the decisions, right? Like he just reaches his hand and grabs a t shirt reaches his hand and grabs sweatpants and it doesn't like who cares, right? I don't think he's ever worn a matching pair of socks because he never puts them in the laundry. And so so he just he gets too many, you know, he has all of these points where he just has this routine and he has his expectations. But in middle school, what's ended up happening is that they do alternate day schedules. So that means that like Mondays or they have silver days and gold days or something like that red days. whatever whatever their school colors are, I think it's gray and blue, whatever. And so on on like one day you have, it seems to turn out this way that it's like, oh, today's the day that I have all of my academically challenging classes. And then the next day, it's like, oh, today's the day that I have percussion, and PE and, you know, maybe maybe some other class that I that I actually don't mind and really enjoy. Oh, yeah, he's in a, he was in theater, and now he's doing computer Arts, which is really annoying.
That's great. I think I think like, like there's something there about routine, which is good, right? So like, Yeah, Steve Jobs, famously refusing mainline medical treatment for pancreatic cancer that probably would have saved his life, but also wore the same clothing every day. So he didn't have to decide right, saving the decision muscles for things that that really matter, like, which subordinate to yell at and which fruit cleanse to embark upon, but like, but there is a wisdom to that, right. And so, like, even among neurotypical people, the the the phenomenon of decision fatigue is well known, right, which is like one of the reasons that they put the the candy right next to the checkout in the supermarket, right? Because you've decided so many things and exercise so much willpower and read so many labels and consulted your list so many times. That by you, by the time you get to the checkout, you've exhausted your capacity for rational thinking, and you're like, me want sugar treat snack? Yes. Hmm. Right? Like you sort of go monkey brain there, because you just run out of the ability to manage your cognitive processes towards a rational goal, right. And so for Leo to decide, like, you know, mismatched socks is not the hill, I am prepared to die on. It's a socket covers one foot, here's a different socket covers the other foot, but I didn't have to decide anything. Super. That's a great trade off, right. And so in some ways, like doing that type of no decision, decision making can be a good practice, because it liberates some cycles of your brain to make decisions that are more consequential, but sometimes, then, by reducing the necessity of making small decisions every day, we never train up to be able to make bigger decisions, right, which seems to be a little bit what's happening here. I know that that my child, they don't when they were quite young, we would be like at the whatever it'd be like, do you want the blue cotton candy or the pink cotton candy, and they would often end up in tears, like, we're giving them cotton candy. But it turned out the problem was that they couldn't pick it right. They didn't want both. They wanted to pick the right one, or they couldn't decide which one they wanted the most. And the cognitive error that that my kid was making there was that when you can't decide you need to keep thinking about it until you can make the perfect choice when if you're thinking to yourself, I can't decide if I want the blue cotton candy or the pink cotton candy more the correct decision there is I guess it doesn't really matter. Right. I will pick one. And then maybe next time I'll get the other one or maybe next time I'll have a stronger preference, right, like so sometimes when we think like, I don't exactly know what I want. We can get spun out continuing to think that the act of making the decision will somehow clarify our desires when when maybe won't. Right? Yeah, exactly.
But but the thing with his with his new schedule is because so like, this week's Monday and next week's Monday aren't going to be the same Monday. Yeah. Right. And so he might know that he has one team every Monday. But every Monday he'll feel different at the end of the day, right? Because there was a different class schedule. Right? He had different classes, which is a different cognitive load, which again, it's that switching, switching back and forth. Where, you know, you can, you can always tell, and I can tell it to my daughter too, because the high school does the same thing. I can tell the days where she has, you know, she's doing ASL for her language, American Sign Language, and she has her theater tech class. And you know, she has all this stuff. And I can tell the days that she has those when she gets in the car when I pick her up versus the days that she doesn't, because she's a much different person. Right? Based on like, what she's had to do with the interactions you said, the teachers he said, but also just the work and the cognitive load. And so, you know, I think he's also struggling with I know I have said I want to go to swim team on Wednesdays and I do want to go on Wednesdays, but at the same time, by the time Wednesday comes along, and I don't know what Wednesday is going to be like, academically that I come home on Wednesday, you know, after school, completely wiped out and just write you know, and then beat myself up because I know I'm supposed to go to swim team, but I'm so exhausted, I can't go to swim.
Well, here's the third thing, right? So the third thing is sometimes we focus our decision making laser like focus on the wrong part of the decision, right? So. So if if Leo can articulate like I want, like in the abstract, I want to be going to swimming on Monday and Wednesday. And the sticking point is actually, that the days with the more academically demanding courses, he doesn't really have the spoons at the end of the day to muster the energy for that. There's a conflict, right? There's a conflict between what's happening at school and what he wants to have happen at swimming. So maybe the decision there is not about like, just get over yourself and try harder or give up swimming. Maybe it's like, well, what can we do to balance the workload across your school days a bit better, like maybe the days that are less academically demanding. When you come home with more energy, then maybe like you work ahead, in the courses that you struggle with, so that you're not going to be overwhelmed at the end of that day. Like you kind of spread difficult courses across those other days when you you don't have to do them so that you're a bit more even keeled, like you can't control your schedule, right? Like you can't control exactly the academic days like especially like this Cisco enraging to be to like my kids school is on this weird system now for pandemic restrictions. But it just means like Mondays are not the same. It's like a two day schedule, but for a five day week, right? So
it's the same thing we're on. It's a two day schedule for five day week.
It's the worst like when you're like, Okay, well, I know on these days, like, like, we've talked on the podcast about how like Wednesday is my teaching day this semester, and I teach until 530. And it's a three hour graduate seminar and I'm burnt out by the end of it, I'm not going to make supper. So every Wednesday is pizza night. Like it would be different if my teaching day moved around during the week, because not every night can be pizza night, because it just depends on everybody else's extracurricular activities. But so long as there's this, like stability in our schedules. Now, that's not something I have to worry about every Wednesday is going to be pizza night, because every Wednesday is my teaching day. And every Wednesday, people are going to be at home at the time that the pizza is going to arrive. And we will not have any physical activities that we have to do after supper that would be better for pizza. Yeah. But Leo doesn't have that.
Yeah, exactly. That's right. Right. Where it's it's, it's the there's that disconnect, where you've got everything kind of set up. So like Wednesdays, we know the expectation. But imagine, you know, for him, Wednesday is gonna be different every week and said today schedule for, you know, for a five day thing, and then you add in the holidays, and then sometimes they double up on days. And you know, like there's the weirdness of it. Sometimes, and it's, you know, so what Leo
is having here, I think is actually lead not a decision problem. I think what Leo is having here is a lack of control over the environment problem, right and conflicting goals, right? So it's not like if Swimming was on the same schedule as school, which is like a two day rotating thing, then it would always fall on either an easy day or a hard day. And then you could make a decision related to is this something that's sustainable for me? Right? Yeah. But when the one schedule operates completely differently from the other schedule, which means that your routine is just not a routine, it keeps shifting, then the problem there is that the decisions you've already made, which is I do want to go to swimming on Monday and Wednesday. And I do want to take all of these courses are now in conflict with one another. Yeah,
right. Yeah. Or it's not so much I do want to take all of these courses, it's I have to take
this course, these courses are required for graduation,
sides, side quest here, but we just they go they do this social emotional testing, right. And we just got the score results back for him. And they're fine. But one of the, I don't know, even know how they're measuring it or what kind of questions they're asking. I could research it, but really, I don't probably horrify me and I don't want to know, but one of them is like confidence in school to prepare for the future that prepares you for the future prepares you for the future. That's his lowest score. Wah Ha, it's like no God. Not no confidence whatsoever, but it is his lowest score that school serves. Like, well, my
kid did a bunch of those tests too as part of their sort of like careers and civics class they had beginning of grade 10. And my kid was like, kind of upset when they came home because they were like, you know, all the other kids got one result like that said you should do this right? And they're like, but I kind of like have interests in everything right and focus in nothing and they were disappointed at their inability, you know, at the tender age of 15. To not be locked down like not to have decided, right, exactly who they are and what they're interested in. So some of the decisions often that we are asked to make with a degree of certainty that we feel bad if we don't achieve or like not decisions maybe that we should be having to make. Yeah, right. Yeah. So so sometimes like to be in this position of uncertainty, like I don't know, like, am I a visual learner or a verbal learner? Which like, side quest is bullshit, anyways? Yes. But like when these kids are doing these questionnaires, and it's like, you know, like, which Sex in the City character, are you? That's not the ones they're doing. I'm just, ya know, I popped into my head. And you're like, I don't know why I'm like, you know, Miranda with with Carrie rising? Like, I'm not sure like, who am I? What do I do? I don't know. Like, you can't decide like, would you rather have the Manhattan or like the beer or like the Cosmo or like, whatever that they're putting in this quiz. And if you can't decide you feel like there's something wrong with you for not being able to decide. So I would flag here maybe that sometimes our inability to make decisions is we could reframe as an openness to the experiences the world will bring us right and that not every decisions are necessary.
Yeah. And that's one of the things I think he's also kind of struggling with where he's like, I really like swimming, but he's also really enjoying percussion. And he also really enjoy doing the play. But he's also not, you know, again, like the the whole ADH thing to where it's like, Oh, I really enjoyed the play, but I don't know if I'm, and I really liked it. It was fun, but I don't know if I'm ever gonna watch it ever again. Um, you know, but if I commit to swimming, I probably never will be able to again, because I'm going to be swimming. Right. Right. And I can't do after late after school, rehearsals and swim. Um, you know, and so that it's almost like, there's an openness, but at the same time, like, it's, it's like, yeah, there's there are consequences. And yeah, that's,
I mean, like, here's another thing, that's okay. But
you know, yeah, like, another
thing that we can factor into our thinking about decisions is that sometimes deciding to keep your options open is a valid decision, right? When you're, you know, 13, and you've just started middle school and like, you're not going to the Olympics for swimming, because at this point, who would in good conscience ever train their kid to go to the Olympics? Because it seems like it ruins them? Like, why not say, I don't want to do two nights of anything per week, right? I want to be able to dabble in this and dabble and not and like, if you can't dabble in stuff when you're 13 like when the hell can you dabble in stuff like I think our culture, Western culture, North American culture, hustle culture, especially this culture of like economic scarcity that we're in, where like, in like, I was just reading this article today, about y'all Americans, like who hurt you, like you have desks in preschool. And people are doing like flashcard drills in preschool. Like when I'm on that top Nell, which was the thing before Junior was junior kindergarten. Like we we had circle time. And we did finger painting. And like, we learned how to go to the bathroom by ourselves, tie our own shoes and get along with people. Mostly right, but we're really pushing people, you know, to be like, well, you should take up the bassoon, right, because the bassoon is an underrepresented instrument, and you'll have a better chance of getting a bassoon scholarship to Columbia than the guitar like or whatever it is right? That it sort of feels like every decision you make, even when you're 10 years old is going to impact your entire future because we're living in this culture of scarcity and hustle where you have to like, find your brand and work it in preschool forward, right? Like, of course, that's burdensome for people to make decisions in that context.
Yeah, that's actually really funny. Because when Leo was first selecting an instrument, he selected oboe for exactly the reasons you just outlined. Not to go to Columbia, but he's like, they'll have to take me in band in high school if I play the oboe, because no one plays the oboe. That's right. And then he realized he can't actually read music. That's a problem. Yeah, yeah. So he loves percussion, because you just have to do the beats. What part of percussion is bells? And he just, like one, like, hit read the music because it's okay. Okay, get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. It's all right. But the and I think that that is and part of it is as well as then then I get the whole you know, amplify parental guilt because I want I want to support him dabbling. Yeah. But also, I only have a finite number of resources both time and financial. Yeah, great. Like this. And this was this was something that we struggled with with my daughter. Yeah, cuz you know, Leo's okay with doing like, one of the things Yeah, and a lot of great games with his friends. Yeah. And and and like, Okay, well swim because my friends were there and that's all right. And then like, you know, maybe theater was fun, but you know, But he doesn't. And I was like this when I was a kid, right? So I totally get where my daughter is coming from. But she wanted to do all the things, right. Like she was swimming, and she was dancing. Oh, and I want to do gymnastics because I want to, you know, because I've got friends, my class with gymnastics, and I want to do and then and I'm just like, okay, so I love you, and I want to support you. But I can't be in four different places at once. And neither can
you. Yeah, I mean, this is a little bit like our Preparing for the holidays episode, right? Where everybody gets to pick one thing, right, and we have to negotiate because a decision, you know, for you to participate in this activity requires everybody else in the household to be involved in in one way or another right. And that these are not things we can do independently of one another. And also, like you need to focus on your schoolwork, or you need to make sure that you're home in times that you can get a good sleep before the next day, you can't stack to any things or or like I can't drive you to all of these things. And so our decisions are never just adjust our decisions to right. But I feel that's where we should be putting our efforts not in like when this is a little bit like last week's episode to about guessing what some college admissions committee is going to want and then trying to become that person. And then what we're training ourselves to do is make decisions for things we don't want, I'm choosing the thing that I don't want, right, based on a guess, about what somebody else is going to want from me several years from now. So like, no wonder we can't pick which type of cotton candy we want, right? Because we're like, it's just for me, like it's just about a preference or right like that. So many decisions have way too much weight associated with them when they shouldn't have it. And then all the decisions, we tend to invest with too much weight, because that's what we've learned that even the smallest decision seems to have outsized impacts on everything we do. And when you You couple that with a sort of passive neurodivergent training and everything that you do is wrong and your feelings are wrong and your way preferred ways of doing things are wrong, like how do you get to make a decision when you're pretty sure that once you choose somebody who's going to tell you you did it wrong? Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. And there is the added pressure that I know, this is why I've tried, like I'm working so hard to like, that's why he talked with the other coach and his dad has been talking him through this is because I know that he knows that like swimming is my thing. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to disappoint me. And that's what being always has kind of been our thing that we've had together. And so it's like, soon as I get involved in the conversation, then it's, you know, is he doing it? Because he wants to do it? Or is he doing it? Because he thinks I want him to do it. Right. And and that type of interpersonal dynamic is also very much complicating of all decisions. Like, like, for years, I couldn't say to Tom would ask me to go to a movie. And I'd be like, uh, we figured out, I wanted to say no, because I don't like to be asked to go to a movie The same day that we're going to go to that movie, because I already had something planned in my head. But also, I appreciate the interpersonal gesture of inclusion that he is making towards me and his love languages, movies, and so I don't want to disappoint him. But I also don't want to go to the movie. So I don't know what to decide.
Yeah, exactly. You know, so. So we're, you know, and it's and it's, it's also normal, he's 13. He's going through stuff, right, that 13 year olds go through, and it's, you know, new friends and new experiences. And so it's, you know, it's on one hand, it's completely normal, we are being, you know, kind of age appropriate and milestone appropriate for what we're doing. It's just with the, the neuro divergence, it all gets turned up to like, 15, it's not even 11 it gets turned up to 15. It breaks the dialogue off, right. And that's, that's one of the hardest one of the hardest parts, is it just, it does, it breaks the dialogue, and then you're just like, I no longer know how to adjust anything. Right, you know, yeah, because it's so outsized. And, and on the one hand, you're saying, you know, yes, I get it, I understand. And, you know, again, thank goodness, I got the diagnosis, thank goodness, that, you know, I have a intellectual understanding of what's going on. But it's, it's still like it, it's still that other part of you, that's the parent that loves them that cares about them. That's just like, I don't know what to do. You know, like, my strategies have now failed me, the knob has broken off, and I can't turn the volume back down. But I also don't want to just smash it. I get to keep going with this really bad analogy. But
are you are you saying that you don't? You can't make a decision about what to do next?
Yeah. Well, other than, like, the instinct to smash the speaker. Right, right. Yeah, but that's but no, you can't do that. I don't want to do that. I know. I don't but it's like but that's, that's the that's when the the monkey brain Yeah. And and, and that's, you know, you just at a certain point, you either live shelters shut down. Yes. Yeah. And as a parents, those are not good options.
No, they absolutely are not. I think like, tapping out and tagging your husband in was a good choice there. So like there's this concept I learned about decision making a bunch of years ago, that made like a huge difference for me in my life about making decisions if it was the distinction between Satisficers and optimizers. Right, there's two ways to make decisions. One, the optimizer I think we will all recognize is a perfectionist wants to make the best decision as if among the field of options, there is one true choice, right? That will not only be like a decision that will accomplish the goal, but it will be the best possible decision. And the decision Gods will give you an A plus, on your sagacity, right? Yes, oh, it would be like, I have to find the perfect couch or the perfect car or the perfect grad school to go to, you know, or the perfect lap desk. And what that produces is the kind of exhaustion of constant searching because no matter what you ultimately decide, the options will continue to multiply after you've made the decision. And then you may begin to think like, well, I'm still looking at now, you know, this lap desk that just came, I wish I'd waited for the next version of my laptop to come out. Because this one is, is better, right? And what we discount and realize, but I just want to make the best decision. What we don't realize when we fall into the optimizer trap, and like I'm autistic, I like to be perfect in literally everything I do. And I tend to blacking like thinking so there must be one correct decision always. What we do not account for when we are being optimizers is the cost of the effort of trying to find the one true choice, right? So you can drive yourself bananas, like trying to find like the one best, like rollerball gel pen, right? Like you can do research for six months, and then you're like, but I'm going to buy 200 of them when I find the best one. But as soon as you buy 200 of what was the best one you can't stop looking. And you're like, Oh no, I should have like waited for this one. So you drive yourself bananas with the anxiety that you will make the wrong choice. And the choice won't be perfect. And like bad news. No choices ever perfect. So you will be disappointed. Right? So some of us tend to that direction. It's decision paralysis, right? Or we spend way, way way too long making a decision and then we're still unhappy with it now Satisficers, which is not my natural inclination is like well, I mean, blue or pink. It's cotton candy. It doesn't matter. Right? Pink, just like the first word that came out of my mouth was pink. I'll get the pink one. And then you're like, Yep, it was tasty. You don't second guess yourself, right? You don't be like, did I just pick that because of gender expectations? Right? As painful as it should? I have like, my reading down feminism. Right? Yeah, if I if I didn't pick the blue, like, what does that mean? Like? Does the blue cotton candy feel unloved? because not enough people pick it, I saw a cart that had green cotton candy. Like, you don't do that. When you're a satisficer? You're like, Yep, good enough. And I've become a satisficer? Because it turns out, I don't enjoy the process of making the decision. Right? Yeah. And Satisficers make decisions more quickly. And satisficer will say like, I don't want the best car that's ever been manufactured. Here are my things that it is like a real estate show. You know, like, there's always this one couple that's like, it has to have granite countertops, and it has to have like six and a half bedrooms and 42 baths and an inground pool. And and and, and those are all things that like, wow, wouldn't it be great if we had those, but they're not the essential bits, like, you know, if I'm going to buy a car, I'm like, I want it to be reliable, because I'm not really good at taking cars in for service appointments. Yeah. And I don't want to be bothered with that. And I needed to have four seats, I need to have a big trunk. I don't want it to be expensive. I don't need a lot. And that's my criteria. And as soon as I find something that meets those criteria, I stopped looking. Yeah, right. Because it just like, it's not like, Well, this one has nicer colors, or like this one here like comes on the air. Like if it's not on my list of like things that I actually really need. If I find something that meets the criteria, I take it right, this is good enough. And good enough means I get to stop thinking about it. And I get to just live with the consequence of my decision, which will be satisfactory. Because I picked the best thing that was available to me, which was speed and within my parameters of what I wanted to spend or what I actually need. Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense.
I hate myself for this. Yeah.
Well and also there I think we can in some cases be both depending on what kind of decision we want to make. Absolutely. Like we have this conversation when I when I gave you the the sweats and the shakes when I was just like, No, I never look at the apartments. We just let everyone else make the decision. And I think the best of it.
sweating right now again, just thinking about it. No, yeah, that's why I think right. Yeah, it's more important to one person than another right and yeah, Good for you for knowing like that. I don't really care. Right? Yeah, you just stepped out of that decision entirely, which like, how empowering for you?
Oh, yeah. And, and it's not that I don't. I mean, I again, it's like for that particular one, it's like I could make it work, you know. And I mean, when we bought the place I had a little bit more, but if all of the other ones when we were renting, I was like, Well, this is in our forever, right? You know, it's, it's, it's, if it's too good, then I'm going to fall in love with it. And we're just going to have to leave it. So like I, you know, there's also I was also practicing a little bit of a detachment there to where I'm like, I don't want to, but but at the same time there was there was this thing like, Okay, well, this is temporary, this is transient, you know, like, we'll, we'll make it work until we come up with a more permanent solution. But I mean, even when we were buying, you know, I was like, you know, I mean, I had opinions, and I went, you know, and we talked about it, but it was I was sort of like, yeah, does it have, you know, I wanted an office because of working from home and I wanted a sewing room. Right. And so I was like, I'd really like that. But if we couldn't find anything in our price range. Yeah. Yeah, that it was like, it's, you know, it was like, for us, it was the most important thing. We're schools. Right. So what can we find where that we can all fit into? And the kids don't have to switch schools? Yep.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so those are like your, your top criteria. And as long as you met those, like it was going to be adequate. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, and it's funny, because my, my husband's an optimizer, but he does it in such a rational way. Like key, but and then when, but once he makes the decision, like, it's funny, you were talking about going car shopping, not may have the same experience, right? Where you looked at it. And he, you know, we got, we've gotten a bunch of new cars, just because of circumstances, accidents, and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, he did one day I get a text going, like, so you want a new car? As it was, like, well, you know, I've been thinking and looking in cost benefit analysis of fixing the car that we have right now, which is 15 years old. And, you know, the the current Used Car, car market, and the price of what we can afford. And so there's this and you, you know, and we have the brand that we really, like, we just keep going with that brand, because it's reliable, and we've been treated well by them. And so he's like, Well, there's this used car, do you and is one that you've talked about wanting a bigger car? And so do you want to go buy it? And I'm like, Sure, okay, it's like, Great, we'll go off to work. And I'm like, Alright, I guess get a new car today. You know, and, and that's what it's always been with our cars, right? He's like, Okay, this is, but he's, but he's done the research. So it's not so much that he's been, you know, a satisfier. I mean, he's got a lot of thought about this. The same thing when we go apartment hunting right here or house hunting. He's got a lot of thought about this and has like, heat maps and cost benefit analysis and like, yeah, you know, yeah, at the end, he does that. But then once it's like, decided, Okay, we're gonna do this. Then we walk in and they're at the dealership, they're like, do you want to test drive it? Like we have three other we've owned three other ones of these? We're good. We're good. Like, are you sure are like, okay, I guess if you insist, we'll drive it around the block. And then we're like, yeah, all right. Let's do it. Like, do you want to talk about it? Like, oh, no, we're ready to sign the paperwork.
That's also the car dealership to that's absolutely us at the car dealership. And it's me, it's me that does it. Right. Like I know what we need in the car. I do that sort of rational analysis, because I'm not trying to it's not a referendum on my cattiness or my ability to cut a deal or my ability to spot trends. Like it's not about my ego, it's about this is an object that I need to purchase to accomplish specific things. And I know myself well enough, right? To know that a fancy car is not that important. To me, a big car is not that important to me. Like, I know exactly what I want and then I figure it out and then we bite and then I stopped thinking about it, which is great. And and the ability to do that is based again, on having a strong sense of your inner voice and your own needs, which again, is something many neurodivergent people are quite shaky on not because we lack the capacity to know what we want and what we need but because we've been constantly told that what we want and we need is not what we want and what we need and so even when like the inner voice is like you are truly a Toyota Corolla family sedan based model no leather seats because it's too hot in the summer, and they rip like you but you're like, I don't know because like other people my age are like, you know, they're more like SUVs or like maybe I should write like it's it takes a lot of work not to make the decision but to get the committee out of your head that's told you you're wrong your whole life. Right. So once you're clear on like in general what your values are my values, like we did a big renovation here a bunch of years ago, seven years ago, and I decided everything super fast because I had a budget. And I was like, these are pretty and that's pretty, but like I'm more of a vinyl floor person. Because if you drop a glass on it, sometimes it doesn't break. It's softer on your feet, and it doesn't make noise. Is it trendy? No. Does it meet my needs? Absolutely. Is it cheap? Sure. And I'm like, This is my price range. And I go to the tile store. It's like the tile stores like the size of a football field, right? And they're like, yes, your contractor called and told us you want vinyl? And I'm like, yep. And they're like, do you want to look at it? I'm like, No. And here's my price range are like, well, we only have three things in that price range. And like, show me the three things. Awesome. Three things is great, right? And they showed me the three things, and I fucking picked. And I'm happy. I'm like looking at that floor right now. My chair is resting softly on that floor right now. And what I think is that decision took me five minutes, like I did a little bit of research about Yeah, like, flooring cost, and like the different advantages of different materials. And then I was like, is it more important to me that I can say to people that I have sleep floors, because that's the trendy thing right now, like, that's gonna hurt my feet, and it's gonna make a lot of noise. It's gonna drive me crazy. And it's expensive items like now I'm a vinyl person. And I got it took me not very long to make that decision. But I let myself listen to my own voice about what I wanted. Right. And that's often the piece that's lacking.
And I think that that's good. That's a really, again, for neurodivergent people, because you could you could see my perceived indifference towards, towards where we live. Yeah. Right. In, in the realm of, well, she's been told for so long that her opinion doesn't matter, that, you know, she's just suppressing it. Right. And so I think there's there is a fine line to dance around that it's like, Am I really indifferent towards this decision? Or am I simply suppressing and going along to getting along? Because I've been told for so long that, you know, I'm wrong and what I think about this particular situation.
And I think, like, go ahead,
I was gonna say, there's still moments like that where I, you know, like, like, with the movies, right? Like saying, Yes, I'm gonna go to the movies, even though really deep down inside, you want to say, No, we still have those, those moments. But it's but it but it's like, taking it having the giving yourself time and space to sort of reflect on and evaluate, and being able to come up and say one way or the other yes or no? Yeah, right. And, and I think a lot of cases, again, we don't trust ourselves. But we also don't give ourselves space to do it. And then end up just beating ourselves up instead.
Well, and this can impact our relationships with people to write. So if I said yes, to going to the movies every time I didn't want to go to the movies, and my husband has been inviting me to the movies, because he wants to spend time with me. And he's assuming that I enjoy them. Because I always say, yes, he's going to be hurt. If he finds out that I'm just saying yes. So that he will still love me, right? Because then it feels like he has been to him, it feels like I have been suppressing my own desires, because I don't trust him enough to say I don't I don't want to go right. And, and so when we just give in to the decisions that other people make, without ever expressing our own preferences, it's not going along to get along in some ways you are kind of failing to engage in the relationship. Like that's, I don't say that in a blaming sense. I know that, like, we have often learned that it's safer in most of the relationships we have in the world to be like, Okay, I'll go with what the group wants, because I'm the only one that ever wants this thing. But like, in our closest relationships, like so for Leo was swimming, right? Like he's thinking like, do I don't want to talk about it. Like you're saying, I don't want to talk about it with him, because he's gonna try to make me happy, right? And then it won't be his decision. He's like, making assumptions about what I want for him. But I want him to make the right decision for him. But he's like, the right decision for me is to make you happy, like, and now you're stuck in this like, yeah, application, and he's gonna resent
you right or resent me because mom made me swim. And when I like I, like, you know, No, I never made you swim. But he feels like I do make him swim because I swim. Right? Like, yes,
right? Yeah. And the only way we can move through that, like with each other is to say, like, it's hard for me to talk about this with you, mom, because I feel like you really, you really want me to swim. And so like, if I don't want to swim, then your feelings are going to be hurt. And like you could say, I probably would feel like that. But that just be my first reaction. I know that you're getting older and you you don't have to like all the things that I like, it means a lot to me that you you tried this and I have enjoyed, you know, doing this with you for as long as we have and it's okay for you to not like like, unless we address those things unless we trust the people we're in relationship with enough to say like, here's where I'm stuck, right? I want to make me happy and make you happy. But I'm afraid if I do the thing that makes me happy you will be unhappy, right? Because if we don't tell people that we don't give them a chance To help us be happy the way that we want to, right, and they probably would more like, if you thought, you know, if you found out, you know, when your kids are in their 40s. And they're like, Oh, Mom, you know, we only did that thing because like you really liked it, you're like, but I was doing it because you liked it, then you just feel this immense sense of like regret and loss, that people were doing stuff, making assumptions about what you wanted. And you didn't get to support them the way that you really wanted to, which was to help them do the things that they wanted. Right.
Yeah, exactly. And that's, and that's the that's the that's the tricky part. You know, and you're trying to one of the things though, that I feel particularly, I don't want to say proud of as a parent, but like, kind of relieved that, that my son is even so I swam, not because I felt any pressure from my parents to swim or anything like that. But I swam, because I felt I need I needed to get out of the house, and I needed the pool. Right? Right. I needed the pool. And I'm, I'm particularly relieved, maybe is a better word, but like, that my son is even debating this at all at 13. Yeah, right, that he knows that. It's an option, even if it's a tough option, but be he doesn't. Like there's no I don't know, there isn't that same pressure that I had put on myself, I guess you could say to be like, I need to get the fuck out of my house. Right? Yeah. Where he's just kind of like, he doesn't need swimming in the way I needed swimming. Right? Which is a win. Yes, exactly. Right. So it's almost like a, you know, I want him to be active, I want him to do activities. Because you know, that's an important thing to do. And it's a social aspect of the physical aspect, because he would just sit around all day playing video games. And you know, I'm like, Alright, valid life choice, but at the same time, please exercise at least a little. So you don't have a hard job? I don't know. But that he can sort of say, well, you know, I don't need swimming. Right? And it's like, Great, I'm so glad you don't need swimming. And so I think that there's, there's, there's that element to in like that this is even a choice for him. As difficult as it is. It's actually a choice, which I'm sorry. Like, you know, I'm really happy about that. I'm really glad. And I do hope he keeps looping because I think he enjoys it. And I think it's good exercise for him. And I think that we have an entire team of like neurodivergent Kids
series. I love that idea. Lee, I love that idea that, that it's not like a like I have to do this because I have these like needs in my life. Like I need to be out of this but where you feel like a lack of control over your circumstances such that you're making like all or nothing decisions. And you're right. So even as tortured as we can be about making decisions like that difficulty that we have in making decisions is a gift because it presumes Of course, that we are at a decision point, and that we do get to choose how nice to not feel compelled or not feel like the track is laid out for you. You don't even get to choose any part of it. Yeah, because the decision is a choice. And that's all we ever want is to be able to choose right until the moment where we have to choose. We're like No, no more choices. So like, what a nice problem to have.
Yeah, right. Yeah. Positive notes, we can end it off, but it's nice to be able to have choices and as difficult as they may be sometimes and not everyone is afforded that luxury, unfortunately, but I will remember to attach this to the blog post this time. And, and hopefully write a podcast blurb that's coherent, and not one driven by hunger and panic. But most of my jam is true. Yeah, that's true. But as always, you can find us on Twitter. I am ready writing.
And I am Did you walk and thank you for making the choice to listen to our poll.
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