The AR Show: Mark Greget (NuEyes) on Bootstrapping an AR Hardware Startup and the Path to the Pro 3 Glasses

6:07AM Jun 12, 2021

Speakers:

Jason McDowall

Mark Greget

Keywords:

glasses

people

vision

displays

company

product

technology

software

hardware

pico

partnering

enterprise

smart

changing

luckily

book

reading

raised

life

ar

Welcome to the AR show right dive deep into augmented reality with a focus on the technology, the use cases and the people behind them. I'm your host Jason McDowall. today's conversation is with Mark Greget. Mark is the founder and CEO of new eyes, an AR hardware and software company that originally launched in 2016. To assist those with degenerative eye conditions. Recently, the company has expanded its product offerings into enterprise gaming and entertainment. With the launch of the Pro 3 and Pro 3e, Mark is a US Navy veteran and an accomplished medical technology entrepreneur. Prior to new eyes, Mark was the founder of Los Angeles Low Vision, which was recognized as a leader in the medical industry and became the number two distribution company for visual assistive technology in the country responsible for millions in revenue. In this conversation, Mark describes how the company got its start by changing the lives of the visually impaired using custom software glasses from the now defunct ODG. And the patient's ability to learn how to see again through the glasses,

using neural activity, changing contrast magnification bringing things closer to you. There's nothing that reverses the this, this visual impairment, if you will, you know taking somebody's usable vision and making their brain process faster and easier. Their world is really the kind of secret sauce of the glasses. So using contrast, magnification having the screens really close to your face. It was at that time, you know something that was that was really changing these people's lives.

We go on to talk about the demise of AR glasses maker odg, and the resulting struggles and opportunities for Mark and the team at new eyes. Now they're tackling healthcare, enterprise and entertainment with a pair of new wearable displays. He also describes how he's built an AR hardware and software company on a shoestring budget, and the challenges of raising money as a hardware tech company. As reminder, you can find the show notes for this and other episodes at our website, the AR show.com. Let's dive in.

Mark, how did you know this was the right path for you?

For augmented reality smart glasses for our first path of medical devices, there's, there's there's a lot of first paths that occurred simultaneously. I think for the low vision aspect of things, you know, sitting in somebody's room with technology, whether it's the outdated products I was selling or trying out our beta test products. The aha moments is when someone turns to you and says I can see again, I can I can, you know, get back to a fulfilling life of whatever they wanted to do. But I think for for myself, when I was out doing alpha prototypes for the glasses for the visually impaired and trying to figure out what worked, what didn't work, you know, what we could do and what we could achieve back in, you know, gosh, 20 2012 2013, I can't believe I'm saying that. We partnered with a company called odg. With one of their previous prototype products for hardware, we came up with some very crude algorithms for software. And sitting in this this woman's house that I've known I've known for, you know, it feels like forever. Her name was Shirley in Culver City, and sitting on the couch and her looking at her books and seeing, you know, our faces from 1020 feet away. That's it's an amazing feeling. I think for me, the aha moment was when she was playing the piano, and she said glasses make bigger, right, and some of our patents around voice commands. And she turns to us, you know, on this video and says, You know, I feel so powerful, you know, and that was that had to be the moment right? The the room, really the air got sucked out of the room. And we're sitting there going, this was something and this is something at that time, we felt was going to be so much bigger than we ever really, really thought it would have been.

You really could change your life with the technology that you're creating.

Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, it was it was instantaneous. It's not like, okay, we're gonna do rehab for three, you know, you hurt your knee, you stub your toe, whatever it is, and you're doing rehab for three, four or five weeks, whatever it may be. This was instantaneous. This was I feel so powerful. I I'm able to magnify the things with my voice and play the piano for the first time after 10 years. You know, to be able to do that and be able to give somebody that back is extremely humbling. And you know, just as you know, being an entrepreneur, there's no amount of BS, there's no amount of paperwork, there's no amount of lawyers and legal fees and people trying to steal your ideas. You know, in most days, it's a it's a pretty tough job. But to have those, you know, those videos come in to have those people, you know, reach out to myself and the staff and articulate what we've done for them is extremely humbling. And that's you know, that's why we've been doing it since 2013. And watch the company obviously In 2016, now, I can't believe it's 2020. And we're moving into so many other things. And that's really why we do it. That's what keeps us going. It's just the just being humble and grateful, and practicing gratitude for for where we're at and what we're doing. I think

that you've picked a special focus for the sort of augmented reality technology that allows you to get that sort of instant feedback, that instant superpower that you're delivering to your users, which is really amazing. How did you find your way here? What was it you were doing prior to the founding of new eyes that led you to ultimately create the company

that started originally I was I was actually in real estate investments, hated my life was super, super miserable, you know, lots of backstabbing, which, you know, obviously occurs now in the HR field. Prior to that, you know, it was a lot of backstabbing, and investors wanting to make more money and more money, more money. And there was no real end in sight of of where this was going. And at the time, my wife said, you know, Mark, go do anything, it's Sunday night, you're miserable. You're You're just you know, we've got two small daughters, I want you to be happy with what you're doing. If she said, Go pump gas, you know, go, go go to Starbucks, it doesn't matter. Just do find something that you love. I mean, a buddy of mine, at the time was working for a company that was selling these kind of assistive technology devices, think of the old school microfiche machine. So you have a big screen in front of you, little camera underneath and a tray table, and you can do you know, certain, certain mundane things, you know, it sits in the corner at 60 pounds, you know, read a book, look at a look at a letter, things like that. And at the time, he said, you know, take a look at it, tell me what you think. And I thought and I didn't know, obviously, you know, why doesn't somewhere where a pair of glasses, why can't someone have just a regular magnifier, you know, these, these dumb thoughts that people that don't know, this industry, you know, have all the time. I said, Listen, I'll take you out to lunch, you know, to see what we're doing. Tell me what you think, you know, it was the complete, you know, opposite is 180 degrees of what I was doing, we're in these people's houses, and we're changing their lives. You know, they're so excited to see us are so excited for us to change our lives. And it was it was really a means to make a really, really good income and really do something good for humanity do something good for for this patient base that for the most part is forgotten, right. I mean, if you if you lose an arm, you lose a leg. It's it's a visual, it's a visual impairment. Okay, oh my gosh, you know, he lost his arm in that in the war. But people that have macular degeneration, glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy, all these visual impairments, they're just walking down the street. I mean, there's millions upon millions upon millions of people. And you just wouldn't know unless they said, Hey, Jason, by the way, I can't see your face. You know. So it was this passion that I got rid that really propelled me into where I am now.

At that point, you were selling other sorts of assistive technologies. Yeah, that enabled people with low vision to have more access to the things that they love in their life, whether it be primarily an example you gave us to read a book or something under some sort of superpower magnifier for that sort of purpose? What were some of the other technologies that you were selling at that time? And why did you feel that they didn't quite get all the way there with what you are ultimately trying to do here with new eyes,

you can hear something, you know, two or 3000 times and then go there, there may be something to this. So my business model was different. So instead of you know, doctors selling devices in their office, you know, ophthalmologist or optometrist, they're seeing hundreds of patients a day, you know, your another rapper, drug rep coming in saying, watch, you push my product. It didn't make sense today. So for me, my business model is different, where I said, you know, hey, Doctor, why don't you send your patient to me, myself, my staff will go out to their house free of charge and see, see what we can do. So getting all of this, this just, you know, analytics, getting all this data of people 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people saying, Mark, why can't someone come up with a pair of glasses that does the same thing, I just, I just, you know, it's kind of, you know, human nature, like, Oh, I'm just gonna put glasses on that's gonna crack my vision, that the time there really wasn't anything there. And some of the early early products were 20 plus $1,000, no reimbursement, stuff that just didn't really make a lot of sense for the the normal Joe Blow consumer. So that's really the path that I went down, sitting in and I probably sitting in 5000 people's houses, saying, Mark, why can't you come up with a pair of glasses marred by cancer come with a pair of glasses, finally, you know, getting the the blessing from my life to say, you know, in 2013 you know, hey, I think I want to try to do this I think I want to go down this path. You know, I want to spend our life savings to see if this is something that's viable and gotten got the blessing, thank goodness. And you know, another another funny story I had reached out to absent at the time via the bt 200 series, Mike Leyva and Eric and Anna and one of them responded and said, you know, Hey, come on down. I'm cold emailing. I'm just nervous. My hands just oh my gosh, they're gonna think I'm an idiot. This is terrible. I emailed him and said, you know, hey, I'd love to come down and show you what we're doing. I think low visual would be a phenomenal use case for the visually impaired. And Mike responded said Yeah, come on down. I was like, Oh man, this is this is too much this is this is this is Epson America, right. So I'm sitting in my, in my, at the time I work van with all the big CCTVs in the back and just sweating. And it's like, they're not going to believe me, this was terrible. And it was really what another another story were propelled me to keep going down this path where they said, We believe in you. This is great. This is amazing. We love to work with you. Unfortunately, at the time, obviously, as we all know, the bt 200 series, you know, the camera was just not good enough. The Intel processor wasn't good enough, but it was another stepping stone in that direction that pushed us down the path to really finding that first hardware manufacturer, which obviously was was odg at the time in 2015.

He said 2015 is when he ultimately partnered with OTG.

Yeah, so so mid to late 2015 reached out to odg. They also said, you know, this is a great use case, this is something we'd love to talk flew up to San Francisco at the time they were off of Townson and sat in Ralph's Ralph's office and and talk with him for a few hours about what my what my vision is, pun intended. What my what my thoughts and visions were of how, how augmented reality smart glasses, so how AR could really change the landscape of how patients see again, that are that are visually impaired?

What's the OTG? I guess, solution apart from what Epson was doing at the time? Was it just primarily about the camera?

Yeah, I mean, you think it's really about it's about visualization. So you know, at the time, their camera was about four was a four megapixel camera, but it was the latency was was almost not noticeable, right? You know, you have a product that sits on your face, again, it's a little bit heavier, unfortunately. But at that time, that was that was the technology, right? With the Qualcomm processors which have gotten phenomenally better. That was the latest and greatest of technology. So the tech that they were using in their the form factor, the ergonomics of the product, were the ultimate decisions were were most of the decisions, and then partnering with odg, in terms of who they were as a company, the people that were there, the smart people that were there, the people that really became family quickly for me, made those decisions very easy to move forward with with with them, in order to really kind of watch if you will, or or propel new eyes to be a corporation, a company, something that I wanted to do and you know, in 2016 and beyond, and what were you creating on top of it,

I imagine you're not just reselling the odg glasses to your client base. But your you'd mentioned that the there's some proprietary ness around the voice commands and some other mints. What sort of software services do you provide on top of those glasses?

Yeah, full disclosure, I have to say that my IP attorney is way smarter than me and made me look way smarter. So one of our one of our kind of first thoughts and in previous prototypes that we were using, were, someone was using, they were they were taking a magazine, a book, you know, newspaper and sitting there and reading it and trying to magnify with their fingers and do all the stuff. You know, if they had neuropathy, you know, they're shaking, they can't feel that paper or things like that, you know, my thought process was is why can't you just use your voice to make things bigger and smaller, it seems kind of like you could in our team at the time, you know, our software team that was out of India, who are obviously family now at this point as well. They said you know, let's do let's do voice commands. Let's see if this works. With a lot of our patents, it was around voice commands of magnification contrast overlay. So basically what happens is using neural adaptivity changing contrast magnification bringing things closer to you, there's nothing that reverses the this this visual impairment if you will, you know taking somebody's usable vision and making their brain process faster and easier their world it's really the kind of secret sauce of the glasses so using contrast magnification having the screens really close to your face. It was at that time you know something that was that was really changing these people's lives. So taking their their hardware and taking our proprietary and patented software at the time, as well as our patented optical so with with cameras, you know, obviously, you can magnify up to a certain distance and then obviously, the pixels start to get less and less and less and it gets blurrier basically, or more blurry. So using our telephoto lenses now you can see out to about 400 feet and people were at, you know Colorado's Rockies games watching watching baseball players. So all those things that you and I just take granted for you, oh, I'm going to angels game, it's fine. That stuff was not they people were writing that off and they could never do it again. So using the glasses, they were actually to able to rekindle a lot of the stuff that they loved. It was just it wasn't about reading a 300 page book. It was about just living your life and as you did before.

Yeah. Unfortunately, odg didn't survive through what Whatever was happening industry at that time? Yeah, what's your take? What went wrong there?

Yeah, no, I don't wanna get in trouble. I'm having. I'm having lunch with Paul on Saturday. So I'm gonna get in trouble here. No, I mean, I think I think, you know, the the people that worked at odg, you know, the the the very basics of shipping and packing to, you know, software programming, hardware programming, doing all these things to put this amazing product together. They by far, and I still say this today, they were, they are the most smartest people I've ever met, you know, the most, you know, hardworking, smartest guys, that, that really put their heart and soul and believed in what Ralph was saying and believed in the mission. And I think at the end of the day, the upper management really just just didn't see the forward facing vision. Right. Perfect example is, is us new eyes, is a company buying a lot of their products in treat us so well, you know, at least from the upper management standpoint, it was, you know, we're odg who the Who the f, are you? You know, that wasn't the thought process. That wasn't the mentality of the everyday workers that were coming in there and building these products and in changing the world, in my mind for the better. But upper management, just had this corrosive attitude that really at the end of the day, just did it eroded the company, unfortunately, at least in my humble opinion.

We'll leave it at that.

Yes.

So what did you do as a company? They're your primary hardware supplier? At that point? How did you respond when those OTG products were no longer available?

You know, I think I think it was, it was an extremely sad day for myself and extremely troubling day, you know, being so emotionally involved with odg. Again, I was traveling up there every week, you know, working with them, giving them ideas, giving them feedback from from the field, if you will. But it was a hard life lesson to realize that you can't have your eggs all in one basket, right? I mean, that's just, you know, you I'm sure your parents told you that I, I've been told that and you just go oh my gosh, like man, like, why did we do that. So with With that in mind, you know, unfortunately, there there was, there was a lot of asset sales through that from odg. For their hardware, we were able to obtain hundreds of 1000s of dollars worth of worth of their products and inventory. So we were able to keep going. As we were looking for our next manufacturer looking for our next product that we could embed our software in some of our hardware. Luckily enough with with Pico interactive, we didn't have to embed our hardware. So it was really just mainly software. So finding that next that next manufacturer, having people reach out to us again, we really kind of put low vision and assistive technology and AR smart glasses on the map. So a lot of manufacturers reaching out to us. And at the time, we weren't great without eg we didn't need to go anywhere else. And so I think the next iteration of our of our product line really came down to who we felt was going to be the most supportive of us in our vision moving forward, I had reached out to Yeah, I think I reached out to well, Winston over Pico, flew down to Orange County, California met him and instantly just just a super, super awesome guy really easy to deal with. And it was, again, another opposites of working with upper management and odg, where it was really easy to talk with him and work with him. And that really is still today. I mean, we still, you know, move a lot of their product with our software. I like their products a lot just because of the wide field of view for low vision. And I think that that even though it's a little bit more bulky, it's really is a Lamborghini, when it comes to how it's helping people. You know, see again,

Pico, though, is really focused on VR, right, although maybe some video pass through, I guess would be part of that would be necessarily part of the VR rig that they're creating to be useful with what you're doing.

Yeah, and I think, you know, when we looked at, you know, after the odg incident, if you will, you know, we looked at what was the next iteration of what we wanted to do software wise and product wise, you know, the, unfortunately the World War One, you know, Korea, you know, the the older generation was unfortunately passing on and we were looking at one, we need to fill the the product, you know, product void, or hardware void, and to what's the what's the next iteration of patient population? Who are we going to be who we're going to be addressing, like, reading a 300 page book that's that really, you know, why are you doing that most people aren't doing that they're listening to books on tape, you know, at the time Amazon's blowing up you know, they had blown up for books on tape, things like that in for digital, you know, me going into retina specialist and being friends with you know, hundreds of hundreds of doctors. You know, it was less about reading books and more about the digital age. So how do you combine the digital age with someone just wanting to see a loved one's face again. Now that's that's a it's an interesting concept. It's an interesting way to look at it. And you know, with will coming in and originally looking at the Pico device go, oh, cool, this is great and wide field of view camera really works well, this is this is going to be great. You know. And by happenstance, again most of this is by accident. Anybody says that they planned it, and it goes out the door just like you planned is lying around business, you know, pushing one button on the on the Pico device, you're immersed in this, you know, immersive digital reality to where you know, someone that that has late stage macular degeneration that just wants to get on Facebook and see their grandkids, someone that wants to go and just read the New York Times, or Washington Post or anything like that. That's really what they wanted to do. You know, I just want to watch TV. How many times I can't tell you how many times I've heard, I just want to watch TV again. Yeah, perfect sample partnering with Comcast for xfinity stream on the glasses where you're watching your normal TV in IMAX theater experience. So looking at it, we were able to knock on wood be able to combine a headworn magnifier, where you're magnifying you're doing all those things that we were doing with OTG products. Now you have with one click of a button, this immersive experience, we're in this inclusive digital ecosystem. Now for telemedicine for watching TV, for social media, for reading for all these things these people wanted to do. That's where we felt the next iteration of products row should have gone and was going to go. And luckily enough it did go so with you know, with Pico, we've watched two products with them. Second product was specifically made, you know, we worked with them in conjunction to find what was going to be best 4k screen 16 megapixel camera testing it out before anybody knew about it, giving our input. And that product today, I mean, is a phenomenal product. It's something that I love something shoot I use, you know, is is something that that at the time was was really, really instilled today is selling extremely well,

which version of the Pico product is that

for low vision, it's the E two plus for the non low vision, it's, I think they call it the G two 4k Enterprise.

Got it. And so you move from a great partnership of a maybe not as warm and fuzzy as you wanted all the time. But the partnership with odg into this now this new partnership with Pico How do you think about the next evolution of what you're creating what was kind of the thinking process there?

The next evolution of of what we wanted to do is we've been doing very well in low vision we've been doing very well in, in the medical space. And looking at it and just as you know, you know, you're going through multiple multiple rounds of funding. People are asking, okay, low vision, that's great. I don't understand it. You know, why don't you do this? Why don't you do that, and you're getting all these crazy different ideas from different people in different you know, influencers, different people that, you know, they're they matter because of certain things that they do. You know, for us, new eyes was was always going to be bigger than low vision. You know, my, my thought process was always low vision is is such my passion, you know, and I've pitched to investors where I find myself walking away from it, you know, one, they don't really care about it. But I find myself re energized about low vision. But that would never was going to be we weren't going to be a one trick pony. Good, bad or indifferent. So for me looking at it at the long term strategy, we always wanted to get into the enterprise market, we always wanted to get into the consumer market and gaming market and entertainment market. But how do you do it right like this is, this is a really tall feat for a company that's raised the of $2 million. Like it's, it feels almost impossible, and it's still almost feels impossible. Luckily enough things are going really well. So for us looking at the next iteration of what, what glasses, in my humble opinion, and a lot of people luckily have agree with me, what's the next iteration of smart glasses or AR smart glasses that should come out? And what does that look like? What's the technology behind that? How does this integrate into our into our daily lives? And luckily enough, again, you know, lots of companies reach out to us and say, Hey, here's a prototype. here's, here's a dev kit, what do you think? What do you like? What do you don't like? One company in particular sent a dev kit to us. And just as it was with will, I really connected with them in a in a positive, you know, personal way with their technology. And looking at it saying, you know, I like this, I don't like this, you know, we I if we're going to do something next I don't want to do something that's just off the shelf like I'm not going to take it off the shelf and just say okay, cool spar software, I want to I want to change the landscape even further. And to that Point holy crap what I want to do this again, probably not. But But you know, it's neither here nor there. We're here, right? We're on the we're on the precipice this week of watching the pro three, we launched the pro three he, you know so these references on originally that I got from this manufacturer I said, you know, this is what I want this is the this is the design, this is the look, these are the displays, this is what I want. And this is where I think that we should go, you know, having a pair of AR smart glasses that truly is a plug and play into your smart device, whether it's your, you know, Android phone, whether it's your iPhone, whether it's your tablet, whether it's your desktop, if you will any any smart device that you have to really truly plug that type C plug into it and just start up right away, was really where I thought where I knew I wanted to go, I wanted to have something where you've got these 10 ADP displays these 4k displays. It's something that's lightweight that sits on your glass, the ergonomics, I was joke, one of my one of my good friends, he's from South Africa, we call them the Viking, right? It's this massive dude with this massive head and I put the pro three on, it's like, that's the stress test, right? They're like, if rich can wear those, like, we're good to go anyway, it'll fit anybody sad. So having this product sit on somebody's face where you can just plug it into your phone display comes up right away, there's no extra software, there's no, you know, extra stuff you have to do or download. That's where I wanted to go. And you know, luckily we've we've been able to achieve that. Definitely a lot more gray hairs I have because of it. But you know, we're we're finally launching. It's been a very, very tough challenge. But we're we're here and we're moving forward.

Let's let's pull this from a couple different angles here. One on the challenge side, you received this reference design, but you thought we need to make it our vision. Can you share who that reference design came from?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Luckily enough, it became public, you know, in the in, and I share it with you. And we haven't shared it publicly before, but they just shared it. So I'm happy happy to disclose it. And the only reason that we haven't talked about it prior to was because every time we announced our partnership with a manufacturer, they our competition would call them within like maybe 30 minutes, 45 minutes. And it happened with odg it happened with Pico I luckily enough, thank goodness we have a an exclusive multi year contract with this manufacturer. So we have things in writing now which is great. So yeah, so we we partnered with and we took that reference design and turn that into the pro three we took the controller away, we took the low two megapixel camera, which doesn't be the Why would you use that the low two megapixel camera away and put our own our own megapixel camera in there, we took it and took the controller away, came up with the Type C plug and now you can plug this into your phone with a proprietary PCB boards and a proprietary design with our with our multi year exclusive with them and we're just we're just happy to be where we're at. They they were a startup, we were kind of a pseudo startup and we've moved together in order to to come up with something that's very unique and extremely different.

What were some of the biggest challenges in bringing that product from that initial reference design to market?

Oh, plug and play. I mean, it's you know, you're you're dealing with a with a cell phone, you know, is you know, from a technical standpoint, dealing with a cell phone is one of the most hostile environments on the on the planet, you know, you've got, you know, grandma in Iowa who's got 25 different apps up at one time and doesn't know how to close them out to someone that's wearing, you know, using it to debug and they're using their own custom software. So having all of these hostile, you know, these uncontrollable situations if you I guess less hostile, but more uncontrollable situations, to be able to plug the glasses in and work right away without without, you know, being messed with with operating systems and updating this or apps in there was really the biggest challenge and really was the biggest challenge until you know shoot just recently

with a specific special techniques that you did to overcome all of that challenges of that environment the hostility of that environment.

Yeah, I mean, it really was I mean, uh, you know, the the saw from the firmware guys to the software guys to the cat I mean the the camera guys really I mean, you Okay, you've got a camera working on the front facing on the Ford facing glasses. You know, what if what if Facebook starts up what you know, all these other things. So having the firmware guys the operating system guys, to having the PCB the hardware guys come up and really work together. You know, everybody's there's four different time zones we're working in. So my days start at 1am. I'm up at 3am. I'm up at 6am taking a break for a couple hours and then now we're in new Last time, and I'm working with the team here locally, it was do it sure, it will always be, but it was definitely a challenge to bring this product to market, you know, the way the way we did it, you know, I think even if we had $100 million, or $2 million, or $1, the problem still would have existed, right? It may have just been less painful with with investors.

And were there any challenges on a supply chain side of things?

That was something that was an aha moment for me. So you know, we're living in these these COVID times, I guess, if you will, where there's just supply chain issues, from semiconductors, to circuit boards, to all of these to electronic parts, because people were shut down for a year not manufacturing things. So by happenstance, we obviously with our designs, wanting to plug into phones, and obviously have a great partnership with Samsung. So we're plugging into a lot of their their devices and their phones. Yeah, there's only there's only a few there's only one Samsung, right? There's only you know, one Google, there's only you know, these massive, massive companies. For us. If we were going to go out and source circuit boards, we're going to go out and source Qualcomm chips and stuff like that. He I'd be asking you for a job. You know, it would not it wouldn't be there because there's a massive, massive shortage of circuit boards. So being able to plug into a phone where Samsung has the buying power that that new ice doesn't or or most anybody doesn't, was by design for us, but by accident, so supply chain issues. Now actually don't don't exist here. Knock on wood for right now.

Because you don't have to build a separate compute pack, you have to build a separate device drive the classes. It's really meant to be a connected display.

Yep, absolutely. Yep. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, we always joke, if you've got your, you've got your speakers, you've got your microphone, you've got your 4k displays, you've got your forward facing camera and the PCB board, of course, and two massive heat sinks. So I'm a proponent of a thermal and making sure it doesn't heat up on your face, obviously, you know, but that was really it, you know, plugging it into, you know, having your iPhone drive it having your Samsung S 20 s 21 s 10 Drive, it was what we wanted to do moving forward with the future. And luckily enough. Now, without a computing pack, we feel like you said with a computing pack, we would have been dead in the water. But now we've we've got a great product and supply chain, knock on wood is not an issue. Maybe tomorrow, who knows,

part of the focus is still the same low vision population. Is that fair?

Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, looking at looking at the product, from a phone standpoint, you know, the phones do a phenomenal job. And I'll you know, harsh on Samsung, I think Samsung does one of the best jobs out there. You know, they have accessibility features that I've never seen before. They have AI components, big bigsby vision, where object recognition, you know, facial recognition, you know, color recognition, these are all built in features to the phone that are just added features that can be displayed in the glasses, and obviously using the four facing camera. So the all of these accessibility features that Samsung has really just just drives the technology meter forward, for the visual impaired and accessibility to have all these tools available for them. You know, again, on the phone, you've got the small buttons and things like that. Now you've got this beautiful 4k display with you know, in 2500 nits really bright, bright display that you can see all these accessibility features on your glasses. And then, you know, furthermore Google with their voice access, you know, using your voice to navigate your phone, swipe right swipe left, open, Facebook, close, Facebook, all these just, you know, really kind of easy tools to use on your phone now are available on your on your face, really.

So it really is just an extension of the smartphone like this. This is the way to think about it as a wearable display extension to your smartphone. Absolutely. And so you're able to take advantage of all these for the existing low vision customers in you'd mentioned this ambition, though, that goes beyond the initial starting population of low vision users to include enterprise I imagine entertainments

Yep, yep. Enterprise gaming entertainment. Yeah. So we, when I looked at, you know, where we wanted to go and in 2020, as we all kind of, you know, had to retard our thought processes are in Denver's even though we were still able to to move forward technology wise, as a crazy CEO with my hair on fire all the time. You know, I was looking at how do we how do we enter into the enterprise market? How do we how do we strategically do that? And most importantly, how do we execute on it? And how do we execute successfully on it? Yeah, and that really started with with some key hires, as you As you've seen, you know, board of advisors, you know, bringing on Frasier boy who was who's a superhuman You know, bringing on Trevor bachlin, who's a superhuman who's who's, you know, knee deep in enterprise and has this Rolodex that I've never seen in my life, the strategic hires coming on and saying, This is my vision, you know, Jason, this is my vision, what do you think? Do you want to be a part of this? Yell at new eyes, we're very different than most companies. You know, it's a collective, you know, okay, cool. My my title CEO, I don't give a shit like that. It's just, it doesn't mean anything. To me. It's a collective of us all putting our heads together as a family to execute on what we all believe is a common goal and common vision of of changing the world. just so happens with Frasier and Trevor coming on board, the enterprise division, the enterprise, has taken off significantly to more to something I couldn't even I couldn't even you talk to me six months ago, or a year ago, I would like to, I don't know, you know, where you want to partner with most of the Fortune 100 company? Sure. That sounds great. With bringing on key higher strategic hires, they've made, you know, my crazy ideas and my thought process, you know, my my miniscule thought process, really reality. So, step by step directions, data visualization, for engineering, step by step directions, remote assistance, all these things that are out there. How do you do that, okay, we've got a primary proprietary controller, okay, now we have to get this, you know, checked into it, we're going to do a six month pilot study, things like that, again, having you know, a phone that's been approved by it with most of these fortune 100 companies, they agree with us, they agree that this is the next iteration of smart glass technology. And it's been great. You know, there's, you'll see, hopefully, in the next couple of weeks, you'll see some major major companies, one automotive company that that's going to be using the glasses for, you know, engineering visualization. So it's, it's been humbling again, to be able to change the world differently, as we do with low vision and medical, we're able to do an enterprise there. And furthermore, you know, giving the giving the engineering team, you know, hey, it'd be great to play games, you know, I played probably more video games than I should, but that that's fine. I won't tell anybody that is. So being able to come up with a lightweight pair of glasses, taking the the forward facing camera off of it, and having this really just immersive experience for mobile gaming for, you know, Google, stadia, Microsoft, Sony PlayStation, all these things where you have this immersive experience on a pair of glasses that look like a pair of glasses with something that I thought of and I wanted, I honestly I wanted to do it next year, that was the 2022 directive, I thought it was going to be something that would be cool. And all of a sudden, we just landed smack dab in a product that's that's, that's, you know, being sold today. It's it's a manufacturing product. And people are very, very happy with it. So again, humbled to change the entertainment gaming space in that way as well.

So on the low vision in the enterprise, both leverage the camera. But in the case of the gaming, the intention is to has been to remove the camera Yorker, I'm really just focused on the display.

Yeah, get get something on your face that looks like a pair of glasses, you can't really tell what what's on your face, other than Oh, that's pretty cool pair of glasses, but you've got this, you know, 148 inch screen or 42 degree field of view, if you will, sitting on there, that's lightweight, you have the diopter adjusters, you have something where it's just a little little wire coming down to your to your phone or tablet, if you will, and then be able to play games. And that's really immersive experience, where it's super lightweight. I mean, it looks like a pair of glasses is something that that I wanted to do. And you know, again, that got Fast Forward quite quickly to launching last month.

And what was the overall weight of the system? Yeah, so

it's about 68 grams. 68.

That's very impressive.

Yeah, yeah. No, no heat on your face. And I mean, ultra, ultra thin, you know, displays an ultra thin glasses that that you put on your face and get to go and play pub G or call of duty that I claim more than anything.

And you'd mentioned 2500 nits. Is that off the display. Is that to the eyes,

that's off the display. So yeah, obviously, you'll get you'll you'll get a little less obviously, but 2500 nits off the off the obviously the OLED displays.

And what's the combiner optic technology using here? There's a it seems to be two major camps that company has been pursuing generally, one is the waveguide. Mostly diffractive waveguide. And the other is the birdbath sort of design that odg popularized several years back.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think I think we're, you know, let's be honest, I think I think waveguides are definitely the wave of the future. I think that they're, they're doing a lot, a lot of great things. Again, I mean, you when you look at this, this, you know, if you want to manufacturer, 510 units, 20 units, you know, a couple 100 units. waveguides are great, but when you want to do a mass deployment like we do with these fortune 100 companies when they want to buy 1000s upon 1000s of units, you have to look at your supply chain and go What is readily available and obviously, birdbath. is something that you can produce overnight in the 10s of 1000s without blinking an eye, so, you know what we use waveguides in the future? I'm sure we will. But until the supply chain issues get worked out, it's gonna be a no go for us. How do you compare what you're doing to what enrile is doing? I would never say anything negative about a company, but we're not a YouTube video. I mean, that's it's simply put, what we're doing is real. We're not putting out you know, these videos where we're putting information in front of you. That's not real. You know, Frazier has done a great job with step by step direction, and he's done a great job with voice commands with and showing the glasses, the gaming glasses, everything we put out there is real. There's been rumors and issues within real in terms of you know, is it connecting to a phone? Is it not? Do you have to download download software? Does it work? Yeah, we're focused on the US. That's been our major focus right now. That is our major focus for the pro three and the pro three he we're seeing great, we're seeing, you know, upcoming a great things in Germany and UK and in other areas as well. But we just haven't seen what they're doing to be real, unfortunately. I guess pun intended.

And real. Yes, it's real. Isn't that great YouTube videos, though? They are shipping product, though. In Asia and in Europe?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Is it with a controller? Is it with a phone? I don't? I don't know. And I'm not I'm not sure if anybody does.

Are you partnering with telcos in order to help bring your product especially to the gaming sort of Margaret or an enterprise side?

Yeah, no, I mean, we've we've had some great conversations with some some major telcos. I don't think that we want to go down the path of unreal of of major partnerships and being locked into to one or one telco. I think the conversations that we've had have been interesting, right? We've had probably four or five, four or five good conversations with telcos, we have to two ish, maybe more than that, that are that are under NDA and that are wanting to partner with us. And the funny thing is, is you know, enterprise is a great, great story. It's a great product gaming is a great products, great story. Guess where they go to

where low vision, the telcos are gravitating to low vision.

Yeah, it is. It is the I mean, it's it's a great, you know, get to great conversations and on conversation. But it's a great conversation. You know, we really like accessibility, we really think that we want to get involved with accessibility, we haven't really understood it, we're not sure where to go. You guys have have obviously become in been the expert me personally, since 2010. You know, we'd like to move into that that visually impaired low vision space, we'd like to address that love enterprise want to do, I will totally put the gaming glasses in our stores. Sounds great. We love 5g, you guys are 5g, one of the only companies that are 5g compatible. I love that story. But tell me more about low vision. It's been it's been it's been great. You know, I think I go back to my conversations with Tom sadowski, who's head of accessibility at Comcast, you know, that partnership was was was a long partnership to get to get inked. But it was a partnership that did get inked with him. And his vision is really taking accessibility and putting it into everyday life. You know, why do we have to have an accessibility app when it just shouldn't be part of our ecosystem in him and I have shared that vision for years and years. But I think now, you know, Comcast has led the way now XFINITY Xfinity team has led the way. I think now more than ever, some of the big telcos love fortune one hundreds are now taking that adoption seriously. And having that conversation that we know so we should have had a long time ago.

He'd mentioned the you've raised $2 million guess which, for hardware technology company, which I rented. You're not manufacturing the hardware. Yeah. But you are pushing the boundaries with what you've done with OTG. And now you've done the Pico work now you're working with a new partner, bringing to market a product that didn't yet exist. How the heck do you pull it off on such a small shoestring budget?

I don't know. I was gonna ask you, you know, I'm just kidding. No, I mean, I think the the, the end of the day, you know, yes, we've we've raised, you know, next to nothing, I mean, $2 million, or $2 million. And I'm exceptionally grateful to some of our, you know, really friends and family, some some early angels that believes in what we were doing. But really what we've done is is, you know, January 120 16, we launched the company, we get a bunch of CES startup awards feature and all these articles, that's great. But how do you stay alive as a company is Is anybody will tell you, you know, sales cures all revenue cures all we started shipping in April of 2016. We started making money in April of 2016. Now for us, we've generated millions and millions of dollars in revenue every year. We've sold 1000s upon 1000s upon 1000s of units, we've we've done things that, you know, companies that have raised $3 billion, haven't done, right. So for us, even though it's been a low amount of money, we've stayed lean, we've stayed mean, as I say, is we all joke on our Tuesday calls, we're still Top Ramen. So we're still, we're still, you know, fighting it out. But sales cures all I mean, we've done we've done quite well done very well, in regards to other companies and sales and really driving that message home, you know, partnering with VA, partnering with insurance companies like united healthcare and at&t, driving the sales have kept us alive in really spending almost every dollar, maybe all every dollar on r&d and development and keeping these engineers employed. Is, is where we've been the most successful with the least amount of money.

Now, very impressive. So last year, 2020 was, for a lot of software companies, a lot of companies in this space was really a great year, because, you know, for example, medical, maybe they were a little bit resistance to change and all of a sudden sort of environment or manufacturing some use cases, suddenly, there was an imperative to change this companies recognize that they had to be able to work more effectively, without being able to echo with each other. Yeah, I was 2020 for you.

Yeah, it was, it was pretty rough. It was the it was definitely the baseball bat to the face for sure. And so for us for 2020. You know, we were successful, we stayed alive, we generated revenue. You know, we stayed lean and mean as we do today, you know, 2020 for us our business model, which really our first and most profitable vertical at the time was low vision, of course. So, perfect examples. Jason's grandmother has been by been diagnosed with macular degeneration. She's, she's an elder care facility. We have a rap in LA or Ohio or San Francisco, wherever that would go out and work with Jason's mom with our glasses in their retirement facility. 2020 is, you know, everything was locked down. So I definitely want to say that our head of operations, she was head of sales. Now she's our head of operations where Jean Chapman was was the shining light to keep us alive in 2020. Moving from a b2b model to a hybrid b2c model, where we were still generating, you know, significant revenue, but we had to shift completely to this b2c model. So now, Jason's grandmother is getting the device shipped to her. Now we're doing over the phone calls, luckily enough, we came out with a telemedicine platform called New call, where we could talk to Jason's grandmother in the actual glasses, which was, which is pretty darn cool. And say, Okay, try this, do this work with the product this way. And we were successful things went really, really well. Again, having to having to be able to pivot and move in different directions quickly. Even though I call us kind of a pseudo startup, we're still, you know, a lean and mean team of, you know, four or five people here, plus engineers, which are obviously part of the sales staff. But having the marketing team and sales team move quickly and deviate, and be able to execute correctly and monetize that execution. That's really been our strengths. I mean, it's been our strength since day one, because we've raised such little money. And for Regina to do that quickly and be successful at it in 2020. I, you know, my hat's off to her and super happy to be here and super happy to be to be moving in so many different directions as we are in you know, in 2021 and beyond.

2021 is looking up compared to 2020.

Yeah, no, I yeah, significantly. Yeah. I mean, it's still it's still a pain, right? you're launching new products, you're, you know, you're you're coming up with new concepts. You're you're hiring people, you're we're in a fundraise, which is, you know, a fundraise. So there's a lot of things going on. There's bigger problems in 2021 and bigger goals and loftier goals, but we've been achieving them we're a little bit late, but we're achieving them and launching launching within, you know, expectations, I guess, if you will,

what's been the challenge for raising money as a hardware company? Let's split specially difficult about it.

One everybody loves software, you know, hardware is this kind of foe pa you know, don't do it. You know, please don't do don't don't pitch me on hardware. I think for me personally, and this is just me speaking. You know, frankly, I think that there was a company out there that raised a lot of money for hardware, and everybody thought it was going to be the biggest thing and then best thing and the you know the the end all be all you couldn't

be referring to Magic Leap. Could you

I neither can confirm nor deny that. Last thing I need is in the lawsuit, right. So you know, there was a company out there that raised a lot of money that a lot of people thought was going to be huge. And they didn't they didn't know how to execute They had the wrong goals in mind, in my humble opinion. And when we're pitching today, people ask me, what's the difference between you and them? And I go through the whole diatribe of now we've got partnerships with, you know, Company A, that's, that's a billion dollar company, Company B, that's a billion dollar company, we have teaming agreements, we have pilot studies going on, this company is about to order 1000 units. Because of the other company raising so much money and so much fluff and so much YouTube videos, that's really put us in a very precarious position where people just don't want to touch it. And that's, and that's fine. You know, we'll sell our way out of it, as we always have. Luckily enough, we have a few investors that we think may come through who knows until the checks clear, right? But I think we're I think we're, we're off to good things. And at the end of the day, we're sales or sales and we're sales oriented. And we're, we're experts in executing with with little to no money.

That is an amazing skill set for an entrepreneur. Yeah, the

if you if you would have told me the path we were going down now in 2021. And the panic attacks, the sleepless nights, the craziness, the everything that that we've endured great To this day, I don't know if I would do it again. Honestly, it's it's been it's been challenging,

but you've survived so far.

Yeah. I mean, we survived so far. I love what I'm we're doing what we love. Raising money is not what I love. But the business itself, I am so humbly grateful to be surrounded by way smarter people who may,

what do you take it from here? What's the kind of broader vision given what you've accomplished already,

God willing, we raise money, and we move forward. I mean, I would like to shoe and I know, I know how, and I know why. And I know what to do to build a better pair of consumer glasses. I think the low vision will always be at my heart, it will always be at the heart of new eyes as a company itself. But building a pair of consumer glasses. Again, going back to my conversations with Tom sadowski, building a pair of consumer glasses that encompass those accessibility technologies and those accessibility features to where if you're visually impaired, you put them on, if you're an enterprise customer, you put them on if you're someone who just wants to game, if you're someone who just wants to watch entertainment, do all these other things, having the One Stop Shop of glasses. If we had enough money, I would I absolutely today know how to build them.

Can you share? what's what's missing from what you've already done? Heck,

no.

Well, yeah, your technology.

That's the right answer. That's the right answer. Yeah, no, of course. So as you look out over the next 1218 months, you know, survive. 20 2021 is picking up, you got this new product that you've launched, the entertainment version, I guess you've watched recently, and you're just coming out now with the other version for with the camera based solution as well. What concerns you now? Like what, who or what in this industry is making you nervous?

You know, I think I would have to say, you know, I pride myself and I, and I have these conversations. And I also screw this up, too, by the way, I pride myself, to have blinders on. You know, I talked to my team about having blinders on, and not not believing the hype, not believing the YouTube video, you know, concentrating on our strengths and concentrating on what we know we can do in the near term, and future and beyond. That's the most important thing, you know, there's going to be another competitor out there, there's going to be another YouTube video, there's going to be another influencer talking about the next best thing. Cool, that doesn't affect us, you know, for us staying staying true to our visions and knowing the technology that's coming out and knowing the supply chains and being able to execute on that. That's the most important thing, you know, there's going to be other companies. So am I worried about other companies coming out and their technology? You know, it sounds arrogant, but you know, it's gonna it's inevitable, right? It's, it's, it's gonna happen. So staying true to what we're doing is our main focus and my main focus, really.

So you can think back you in some ways, have been working on this for a decade, but the company has been officially around for five years or so. How has your perspective about the industry changed, maybe about where we are, where we're going, what it'll take to get there, what has changed,

you know, when when odg was around, and seeing some of their prototypes, the AR nine, the era, the art, whatever, I felt that the technology was so far ahead, and it was just going to be an amazing time and I didn't have to worry about, you know, hardware, I could concentrate on software. This is this is where the technology is, this is where this industry is going, you know, with OTG going out of business with with investors in the US, not really, you know, in my opinion, not really embracing AR hardware, smart glass technology.

You know,

I think that we took a major leap. backwards, we'll step backwards where we're at the cell phone that sits in your briefcase stage that feels like when when I thought we were going to be at the the Motorola flip phone stage, right, or we're almost to that, that technology. So there's a long way to go, I think there's a long way to go. And the lack of money in this industry and investment in this industry has done a disservice to to where we could be right now, in my humble opinion.

So I'm just gonna restate a little bit, because there's some very interesting things in there. On the one hand, odg, was really far ahead with what they had accomplished already. And given what they had done in the amount of time that they were doing it, you imagine that we'd be further along at this point. But 100%, but they stumbled and are out of the game. And some other company raised $3 billion and sucked up a lot of money, energy expectation out of the market, and didn't deliver. And, and as a result, we're, we're not even yet to the razor, the Motorola raising device back in the day when it first came out.

Yes, dude. Yeah, if you've never raised her, like, come on, man.

The first super successful flip phone back in the day? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And so the the recognition is really that it's slow going, and it's gonna be a slow ride from here. Absolutely. Continue to be a slow ride.

Yeah. And that's, and that's what it feels like, you know, we're we're doing we're, we're, we're plugging a cell phone into a pair of smart glasses. And now you've got this amazing experience. You know, and I'll tell you, you know, investors find zero value in that, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing to me, you know, and some of the, you know, won't go too into detail. But some of the stuff that you and I talked about, not on the podcast, what you're doing. I mean, why aren't people driving bags of money to you? Like I don't I don't understand. It's, it's, it's frustrating to me, your success, our success, everybody's success validates this, this industry, you know, the more investors The more people that see what we're doing and believe in what we're doing, drives the innovation further, faster works. You know, he gets, it gets exciting quickly. I mean, I'm, I'm astounded on on why that hasn't happened.

One contributing factor, I just throw out one, one thought on this, is that because these major tech companies, even those that weren't startups that raised billions of dollars, there are others out there who are spending billions of dollars a year, and they know how to do hardware. They're experts in it. And so if they haven't delivered it yet, and if they can't figure it out, then why the heck would anybody else be able to pull it off?

Seriously, dude, one of these companies is buying glasses from us. Like you'll see. I don't know, though. I don't know if I'll announce it under NDA, whatever. But it's funny, that little new eyes, the this major company, that's a billion dollar company that's trying to build glasses is buying stuff from us. I mean, I just it's, I don't know, I mean, I think, yeah, when we had this, we had this philosophical, we always have these philosophical conversations on our sales calls with the team. And, you know, why can't Company A do this? Why can't Company B do this? They've got more money than than anybody in the planet. And our, our thoughts are, and we could be completely wrong, is they're trying to do something that's so difficult, right now. Like, I'm trying to do 10k displays. Okay, but there's no content that does that. I'm trying to do 8k displays. I'm trying to do all these things. Start simple. I mean, do you know somebody that that started running before they were walking? Probably not, you know, start simple. Build your base, you know, you live in a house, you know, we built the walls before the foundation, I'm sure that's going to go well. You know, build, build something that's simple. get your feet wet, be in it may not be the the best thing to date. But you're building that foundation to build the next best thing where it is 8k displays where you've got this, this this great, you know, experience, it's never been done before. But you can't go to z if you haven't gotten that.

In some ways. Google started small. And they have had this product now on the market for eight years. 2013 they launched that Google Glass originally. And it was relatively simple. Yeah, but it's evolved very little in that time. Yeah. Do you think that's just a limitation on the technology? They just gave up on it on the product? What's the Why do you imagine that given that they were a large company with lots of funding and could iterate continuously on the thing? There have been remarkably few actual iterations that we can see as outsiders in the product?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I'll go back to my infamous I'll say infamous Navy days, right. You know, yeah, I was I was stationed aboard a frigate. And you saw how a frigate could turn versus an aircraft carrier. It's the slow moving abode. There's still 4000 people on it, and it's just this gigantic entity, versus a frigate which is, you know, 250 plus feet where I could bang, Utah. Like, it's just it is it is. So I think for that, using that analogy, I think that you're right. There was a lot of starting and stopping. But I think the slow going where I mean, there's probably the smartest people on the planet that work for Google, right? Probably someone said down the line, why don't we do two displays instead of one? Why don't we increase the field of view? Why don't we do these, these comments and things. So you and I, to maybe the upper management there, where they said, You know what, this is just not going to worth it. It's not going to be monetizable. I don't know it. And there's some smart guy in the back of the room going do Just listen to me, I know what we can do. I think a lot of times when you're on an aircraft carrier, it's slow going. And you know, the smart people in the room just don't have control on where the direction is going to go. And I enlist I could be wrong. Who knows?

Let's wrap up with a few and lightning round questions. Oh. What commonly held belief about spatial computing? Do you disagree with

I disagree that it takes billions of dollars to make something relevant

insight and innovation to not necessarily equate to gigantic budgets? You don't need one in order to get the other? Yeah. Besides the one you're building what tool or service Do you wish existed in the AR market?

I wish in this is terrible. I wish the iPhone. This is personal. I wish the iPhone had a Type C plug.

Universal connector.

Yes. A universal connector. That has been one of the hardest challenges for us to solve personally and as against personal right. That we have solved we haven't announced yet. But we have solved to connect you know the iPhone to smart glasses. What a pain in the ass.

As a consumer, they don't on some on some of the versions of the iPad. Yeah, but not the iPhone. I turned one excuse was well, it's easier to make the current lightning plug waterproof, or water resistant? Hmm. I don't know about that.

Maybe right, maybe not. Yeah, I think it's more of a more of a proprietary thing.

What book Have you read recently that you found to be deeply insightful or profound?

Yeah. So my my military background, of course, you know, you're you're reading Tom Clancy in other things. Gentlemen wrote a book, I do forget what the darn thing was called. I met him personally. He wrote a book about about being left in the jungle in Vietnam. And the struggles that they went through this marine group that got left in the jungle by themselves and what they went through and the struggles and how they overcome these challenges. And I think the Oh, reading that book, and then reading it multiple times, really helps with the struggles of entrepreneurship that things could be a lot worse.

Was it jungle rules? No, I

the author, the author, it's a smaller book, the author, his name's Bob bersih. And he gave me the book personally, and it's definitely a good read. It's not it's not one of those big bestsellers, obviously.

Yeah, very cool. If you could sit down and have coffee with your 25 year old self, what advice would you share with 25 year old mark,

I will share a lot of advice, at least entrepreneur, entrepreneur advice is my wife. You know, it tells me I'm one of the worst business people on the planet. Anything I would I would tell him, you know, trust but verify. You know, yeah, especially dealing in the world of investment where people say, Oh, yeah, yeah, we'll do it. We'll do it's great. You know, I think, you know, telling him that, you know, don't don't trust what people tell you. Let them show you what they're going to do. My parents to their credit, maybe not, you know, raised me as you know, treat people how you want to be treated and trust them before, but you know, trust them until you can't trust them anymore. I think from an entrepreneurship and business standpoint, that's, you know, unfortunately, sometimes not not the best trait.

That's a tough one. It is a tough one from normal human interaction. It's desirable, it often carry that level of nastiness. Creates better relationships, more open, more accepting. Yeah. But in business,

it's it's almost up. It's almost the antithesis of unfortunately, paper matters. Action matters. Yeah. 100%.

Yeah. Any closing thoughts you'd like to share? Well, I

mean, I think you know, I appreciate your time, appreciate you, you know, stooping down to the new eyes level. In talking with me, we're doing some great things that a lot of people don't know about. And I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about you know, what we're what we're doing and what our thoughts are and how we're how we believe we're changing the world.

Yeah, it's a pleasure. What do people go to learn more about you and the work that you're doing at new highs,

so easy enough so new eyes calm. So in u e, y e s, calm is not any w so and you UI e s calm, and follow us on social media, got some great, great stuff going on with the gaming glasses and people playing video games and all that fun stuff. So it's an exciting time here. Awesome. Mark. Thanks

very much for this conversation. Yeah, I appreciate it. Before you go To tell you about the next episode. In it, I speak with John Black and Mina Fahim to the cofounders of MediView company working to simplify minimally invasive procedures, enhance clinical workflow and improve patient outcomes using augmented reality. We talk about the unique challenges and opportunities for using AR during surgery, as well as the benefits and lessons learned from their partnership with the Cleveland Clinic. I think you'll really enjoy the conversation. Please follow or subscribe to the podcast you don't miss this or other great episodes. Until next time,