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1869, Ep. 165 with Rochelle Rojas, author of Bad Christians and Hanging Toads | Otter.ai

1869, Ep. 165 with Rochelle Rojas, author of Bad Christians and Hanging Toads

Cornell University Press22min

Jonathan Hall

00:09

Welcome to 1869, The Cornell University Press Podcast. I'm Jonathan Hall. In this episode, we speak with Rochelle Rojas, author of the new book, Bad Christians and Hanging toads, Witch Crafting in Northern Spain, 1525-1675, Rochelle Rojas is Assistant Professor of History at Kalamazoo College. We spoke to Rochelle about the inner logic of early modern European witchcraft trials, how accused witches were able to prove they were good ,and not bad, Christians and the surprising and prominent role that toads played in many of the witch accusations. Hello, Rochelle, welcome to the podcast.

Rochelle Rojas

00:52

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Jonathan Hall

00:54

Well, I'm excited to talk to you about your new book, Bad Christians and Hanging Toads —it's a great title—Witch Crafting in Northern Spain, 1525-1675. Tell us how this book came to be.

Rochelle Rojas

01:08

Well, it all started with the WTF moment on a trip to Germany, where I visited a region in Trier in which every single woman but one was executed in the village for witchcraft, and that, what the heck moment, bounced around in my head for so long that I actually started to go to night school after work so that I could apply to a PhD program and kind of explore the wonderful world of witchcraft that led me to Duke University, where I worked with Tom Rovi show, a scholar of witchcraft, and Tom, as did I, as did most scholars, assumed that witchcraft in Spain was under the purview of the Inquisition. So it wasn't until I got to Spain and started poking around in the archives that I discovered a secular court up in northern Spain had successfully managed to poach witches from the Spanish Inquisition over the course of 150 years. And it was in these secular archives at the the royal court of Novara that I found over 150 people had been accused of witchcraft, and this was distributed over 150 years of incredibly rich documentation that had never been written about before. So the product was it was not intentional. I'd really expected to do a Spanish Inquisition project, and then when I found these local, or not local, but regional, non inquisitorial sources, in which the questions were posited in a very open ended manner. And it not only allowed, but it encouraged villagers to share the town gossip, the village gossip, that I was able to uncover an aspect or a dimension to witchcraft in Spain that was not colored by the Spanish inquisitions, questioning and overview. And you know, 10, what, 13 years after the fact, after that first trip to Germany, I would say that I think I've got my question answered, but there is still a certain perplexity to it that I don't know that myself as a contemporary person will ever quite be able to understand interesting

Jonathan Hall

03:26

I'd love to unravel this question. I mean, witchcraft and Wicca, it's made a comeback on a modern culture, and most people have heard of like the Salem witch trials and in North America, and obviously there were witch trials in Europe as well. But as you were saying, most of the accounts historically that at least have been looked at until your book and obviously others have looked at the non panic sources, as they're called, The literature, is scarce as to looking at the actual practices of witchcraft, non judgmentally. Obviously, the trials are very skewed towards one direction of looking at witchcraft as completely evil, and your book dedicates five chapters to a particular aspect of Navarre, which beliefs and witch trials, looking at legal, religious, scientific and cultural contexts, tell us what you found.

Rochelle Rojas

04:20

Okay, um, really, the only way to understand the web of beliefs is to kind of look at each strand and see how those ways of thinking, those epistemologies, support which belief. So it's impossible to to understand it without, like picking each strand apart. So the first one really looked at the legal or the judicial context. So what was pretty cool about this particular region is, as with most of Europe, there were Episcopal or ecclesiastical courts and then secular courts. Well, this particular region had not two, but three competing courts, a really strong um. Very protective of their jurisdictional purview, secular court, an equally intense or zealous religious court and the Spanish Inquisition. So it the one thing that came out of it is that everyone was arguing using the ambiguity of what the hell even is a witch to be able to argue that this witch belongs to our court. And I think not only was it exciting for the region, but I think it also offers and opens up for other scholars, the importance of poking around at courts where you wouldn't think that there would be witch trials, and seeing which were able to kind of take witches for themselves. So the legal ambiguity of witchcraft really helps support its understanding. The other chapter looked at religion. So in this particular region, the performativity of the Catholic faith really could protect someone from a witchcraft accusation, or conversely, open them up to one. So in half of the trials, the term bad Christian that the title draws from, Ramallah Christiana was used interchangeably with the word truja, which so I could literally sub one word out for another. So this religious performativity really held together the social fabric, and that helped my modern mind make sense of what a witch was. And so okay, I can believe that there are bad Christians, there's bad people, right? So if that word suddenly turns into the word witch, or evolves, it makes sense why I would believe that one of my favorite chapters was on the toads, and that was fascinating to find toads kind of pop up or hop into nearly half of the witch trials. One fascinating thing was that I got to trace the evolution of beliefs. So in that very first trial in 1525 toads were used to produce the poisons with which witches used to perform their mouth the and actually, Jonathan toads actually are poisonous. They do have Bucha toxins that can affect people. So, you know, it was a non anthropomorphic toads that kind of provided these, these signs of witchcraft. But by the end of the trials, once the Spanish Inquisition got its hands into the trials, they had totally transformed them into these little dressed toads, these demons that spoke and gnashed meat with their mouths and breastfed from witches. So it's really neat to see how a local kind of popular culture idea could be transformed through demonological lenses, and without these local or sorry, secular type trials, you wouldn't really be able to pick up on that type of evolution. And then the last chapter looked at the cauldron of which beliefs, and it shows that the rhetoric of witchcraft reflected the fusion of concerns from both the peasants and also the judges. And it traces various fun themes that appeared throughout, including a missing theme, and that was the missing theme of skepticism villagers were very reticent to express that they weren't certain that witches actually existed in their area.

Jonathan Hall

08:27

Interesting, interesting. Your book starts off with an interesting trial involving people's left eyes. Could you tell us about that? And then also, how did accused witches prove that they were good and not bad Christians. Oh,

Rochelle Rojas

08:43

thank you for asking about that opening vignette. It is one of my favorite ones, because it's very paradoxical, as is witchcraft. So here we have a young, 12 year old girl, no doubt, an illiterate villager, and she is commissioned by the Royal tribunals to tour throughout the area to use her empirical skill of being able to tell who is a witch, and she does this by looking into the left eyes for the quote pa of a toad, unquote, in people's pupils. What's really interesting to me is that these learned men who the majority would have been from Castile or Spanish, as opposed to the majority Basque, or people who speak us get up in this particular region. So there's this, this, this young girl given all of this power, and she actually is able to denounce 12 villagers for witchcraft. But this is what's really cool, in a bit of empirical studies and in proof, if you will, burden of proof within the courtroom, she actually has those 12 accused witches line up, intermixed with a group of people who are not accused of witchcraft. She covers all their bodies. Body so they can't be identified, and looks at every left eye. It turns out she's accurate on account of all 10 and out of abundance of caution for the two people she wasn't sure of, she let them go. So it's just a fun vignette to open up with, because it shows local beliefs kind of combined with these elite notions, you know, the whole left eye the devil marking, that's, that's demonological thought. She doesn't really she's very disempowered in this early modern society, yet she's given a lot of power in this story, the way that people tried to prove they were good Christians largely depended on Fama, which is a step up from gossip. It actually holds legal law. So it's imagine like a legal reputation, if you will. And so they they prove this by how often they go to Mass. There's even examples of the level of religiosity with which they go to Mass, with one group definitely denouncing someone for a witch witchcraft, because when she goes to mass, she looks down at the ground and not directly at the priest. We see people's contributions being invoked a lot. So there's this one woman who donated a very expensive chalice, and that is mentioned time and time again. But I do have to share one of the coolest things I found in the archive, and this is physical proof of being a good Christian. So in the years 1576 and a villager named Sancho, interesting that he is male, is accused of witchcraft, so she produces and they exist to this day in the archive five indulgences brought from Rome from the year 1500 as proof that he's a good Christian, because a bad Christian wouldn't support the crusade or the Reconquista, a bad Christian wouldn't spend money, and a bad Christian wouldn't supposedly do the the acts that the Christian acts that are supposed to accompany these and then the last thing that I thought was really interesting was that every every defense attorney opened up with trying to prove that their or with asserting that their client was a good Christian, and even invoking that kind of racialized rhetoric of blood statutes in Spain and saying this person is a good Christian because they have no Jewish blood, no Muslim blood, I even saw The word no blood, of which, and one person that said they have no blood at all, meaning white Christian blood was the norm. Interesting,

Jonathan Hall

12:48

interesting. Once there was a trial and you were determined to be a good Christian, could they say, Okay, cut it out with the witchcraft. Or, like, we have our eye on you and just continue on, you know, stop doing what you're doing. But we're not going to put you, you know, to death or whatever they would do. Yeah.

Rochelle Rojas

13:07

So the the actual judicial sentencings that appear actually do tend to trend towards what you and I would consider a little bit less. Well, there's only in the actual records that I have existing there's about 50 executions in 1525 that is an anomaly, and then two executions in 1575 so the majority of these people are sentenced to exile, which could be very serious and lead to a social death, which would incur a physical death. But the grand majority of them are either exonerated by the secular court or the Spanish Inquisition, ends up with them and exonerates them. I only have the records to show the after effect of one particular accused witch, and she actually returns because her social death, her exile is so severe, she says, I'd actually rather be in prison than at than not be able to eat out and about. But no one really shows back up. So would unfortunately, the archival record can't capture what is their fate, though, certainly I would suggest it's never, it's never a good thing for you or your project. Need to be accused of witchcraft in early modern Europe.

Jonathan Hall

14:21

That makes sense. That makes sense. Getting back to toads, we talked about the bad Christians working under the title here these toads. Now you mentioned toads being dressed up, and you said that toads emerged as surprisingly dominant protagonists in almost half of the witch trials. Tell us more about these activities of the toads,

Rochelle Rojas

14:41

they're everywhere. It's totally amazing, in more than 50% and it would be in very subtle ways, such as well. I do believe Jonathan is a witch, because I saw him washing his clothes down by the river, and there were some toads around him, and that makes me suspicious. But then there was very overt ones. One woman is accused of masticating the holy, the holy wafer, and spitting it, you know, recruiting, taking it into the mouths of the toads. Another woman is accused of being a witch because she quotes, spared the life, suspiciously, of a toad. And then another woman, and actually she inspired the title. They said, Well, we know that Maria is a witch because she keeps a chubby Toad, quote, four fingers wide, hanging from her doorstep. So over time, this understanding of toads, which can produce poison, so perhaps people could actually put poison into an enemy's wine goblet, let's say, evolves from just its material, Bucha toxins that it produced into actually being witches. Familiars, which is another really interesting intervention of this book, because so far, which is familiars have been understood to be a British trope exclusively so over time, with demonological and elite understandings, those simple tones that can kind of make you sick or make your enemy have diarrhea or theoretically die, turned into actually little demons. And so it was the inquisitions imagination that dressed them up. So in my secular trials, I don't see dress toads. I only see toads that are forced to vomit out their poison and then used to poison over but it became a shorthand. So all I could say, I wouldn't have to accuse you of witchcraft, but I could just mention that you have toads that you guard in your backyard. And so I think what was really cool is it gave a material understanding to how some of these folkloric traditions evolved, and then it also shows you how it was the imagination of the elite that turned it into this kind of ludicrous you know, the toads wear tight, thinning velvet and bells around their ankles.

Jonathan Hall

17:03

I'd love to see that

Rochelle Rojas

17:06

there's someone on Etsy who does make toed clothes and dresses.

Jonathan Hall

17:09

Oh, sure, that's great. So you talked about the elite, you know, judgment, and we're also looking at belief systems, that one of the things that you argue is that the definition of the which which, I think you start off in the beginning of the book, it's a generic term for all kinds of evil magic and sorcery as perceived by contemporaries. But on a more sociological level, you can see how you know, attacking someone as a witch supports othering the person, or xenophobia or cruelty against others. Usually, minorities tell us more about this.

Rochelle Rojas

17:51

So I do want to just touch on the plasticity of witchcraft. So one thing that actually goes back to that question and Trier, how did people believe this. I think it's important to note that everyone didn't believe the exact same thing. There was no just one belief. This is what a witch is, and we all believe it. So you and I could have very distinct beliefs in what a witch is. And so it's that very plasticity of this label that was so useful, and it absolutely offered a means of settling old scores. So we see a lot of revenge. And that's back to the question of, you know, are these people practicing thing? A lot of these people really had nothing to do with anything, even weird, but they ticked someone off at some point. So maybe in that sense, especially if it's a woman, she was wrinkling the social fabric, which is where feminist explorations can come in. But anyhow, the role of the witch label absolutely offered a means of scapegoating, of enacting revenge and punishing social transgressions, even if these transgressions don't register in the archival record. But I think what's important is that this form of othering was also paired with the suspension of legal ordinary with ordinary legal practices. And that's where that law piece came in, similar to laws that might ancient laws that might be enacted today in our own country, there was this concern of like, look, these people are spreading these people are doing horrible things to our children. They're even eating them. They're not eating our cats and our dogs. They're eating our children. And so therefore we must punish this the highest level, and we must suspend ordinary processes of law. And so I think that is the other crucial piece. It's not just belief, but it's belief paired with legal systems that are comfortable with invoking special powers, because this is a special group, right? One word they used a lot is this was a cream and accept of an exceptional crime. It happens at night, so we can't follow normal processes. So. So all this together created which is in the early modern world. And I think it just helps us ask ourselves, what belief systems do we have today that create the other, support the other, and then how does that intersect with laws and whose bodies are legislated how? So basically, they created this really excellent tool that got rid of people and it reified social hierarchies.

Jonathan Hall

20:29

Wow, yeah, you can see the parallels with things that are going on today.

Speaker 1

20:34

It's striking. Yeah, wow, wow. That's

Jonathan Hall

20:37

amazing. Well, this is so this is such a fascinating subject. And I'll just say that the books we publish on witches, they're like, they're extremely popular, so yours will be no exception. I just think this. People are just fascinated with the whole topic. And you've done a really amazing job of going into Spain, where, as you said, the literature really didn't handle it outside of the Inquisition, and you've done a deep dive. That's That's fantastic. So anyone that's interested in this topic and is listening to this podcast, I strongly, strongly encourage you to read Michelle's new book, Bad Christians and Hanging toads, Witch Crafting in Northern Spain, 1525-1675. It was great talking with you, Rochelle.

Rochelle Rojas

21:22

Thank you so much.

Jonathan Hall

21:24

That was Rochelle Rojas, author of the new book, Bad Christians and Hanging toads, Witch Crafting in Northern Spain, 1525-1675.If you'd like to purchase Rochelle's new book, use the promo code 09POD to save 30% off at our website, cornellpress.cornell.edu. if you live in the UK, use the discount code CSANNOUNCE and visit the website combinedacademic.co.uk. Thank you for listening to 1869 the Cornell University Press podcast.

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