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Uncover the Power of Belonging in Inclusive Education with Erik Carter

Tim Villegas51min

Tim Villegas

00:00

Hi friends. I'm Tim Villegas, and you are listening to or watching, think inclusive, a podcast by the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. This podcast explores inclusive education practices through conversations with people who are doing the work of inclusion in the real world,

Tim Villegas

00:22

I'm coming to you this week from the Marietta square in Georgia, where I live, just a few miles down the road from my house. I decided to get out of the office today to do some recording. This week, we have Dr Erik Carter as our guest. For those of you who listen to this podcast, you probably already know who he is. He's from Baylor University, and he's well known for his research and work around the concept of belonging. I just want you to take a second to think about that word belonging and its relation to inclusion and inclusive education. And just Just think what you know, what's the difference, what's the differentiation between those words? Because I think that the conversation that Erik and I have, I was able to get a little bit more clarity on what belonging really means. A lot of times it's synonymous when we're talking about inclusion and belonging. And so I think we get into a little bit of the nuances of what that word means, and also characteristics or aspects of belonging, before we get into our interview with Dr Erik Carter, I want to shout out our sponsor for this season. We're so thankful for IXL to be our sponsor for season 12. IXL is an online teaching and learning platform for students from kindergarten through 12th grade. It's a fantastic tool. Over 1 million teachers use IXL in their classroom, and 95 out of 100 of the Top districts are using IXL in their schools. It's a powerful platform, and I think you should check it out to learn more. Go to ixl.com/inclusive that's ixl.com/inclusive okay, we're going to take a quick break, and when we come back, my interview with Dr Erik Carter, all right, see you on the other side. You

Tim Villegas

02:59

Hey, Erik, it's been a while. How are you doing? Well,

Erik Carter

03:03

settling in into a new community and a new place, loving the opportunities and the excitement here at Baylor, as we think about disability and inclusion and flourishing together, it's been a lot of new learning, a lot of new people to meet, but the ground is really fertile, and that leads to a lot of excitement.

Tim Villegas

03:20

Very good. Very good. Well, some of you may some of our listeners may remember you and your work at Vanderbilt and know that you would focus on disability and belonging. Can you share what is going on at Baylor? What's your role at Baylor, and what are you working on? Can we start there?

Erik Carter

03:42

I've loved the nearly 20 years I had opportunity to work with colleagues at Vanderbilt, but an opportunity came up here at Baylor to think even more broadly about the practices and postures that lead towards belonging, not just in our schools, but in our communities, and particularly in our congregations. In my move to Baylor, I'm beginning to think more about what does it look like to help community, faith communities, in particular, be places where people can worship and Learn and Serve and fellowship together as one community, and to think about what that looks like to do that really well. We're also thinking much more broadly about some of the movements we might make in our communities, workplaces and residential opportunities. Again, I'll keep coming back to this word, this phrase, of flourishing together, and that's a big theme of the work at Baylor, is, how do we promote human flourishing in all the ways that matter most to people? The hat that I'm wearing here now is as the executive director of the Baylor Center for Developmental Disabilities, which has this as its core mission, to think about doing the very best research and training and technical assistance and support that leads to flourishing of people with disabilities and their families and the communities that learn to welcome them well. So

Tim Villegas

04:56

you mentioned the word flourishing, and I'm wondering if there's a. A distinction between flourishing and thriving, because thriving is a word that I hear a lot. You know, like, are you thriving in your life, in your job? How would you define right flourishing? Yeah,

Erik Carter

05:17

I think there's a set of words that we often put together, and academics would argue and tinker over the distinction between those but I think the language you're using resonates with how do we help people live rich and full and abundant lives, which is a much higher level of goal than just having good outcomes, good experiences or a high quality of life, but to think about what does abundance look like to have rich relationships, good health, strong community connections, a sense of meaning and purpose and safety and security wrapped together, I think those are the elements of flourishing that matter To anyone, but are often elusive for our students and young adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities. So we're trying to change the narrative that we want to do better than just merely promote good outcomes. We think people with disabilities like anyone else should experiencing flourishing lives, and in fact, we would take that flourishing concept to our communities, and say we're really eager to promote flourishing communities, ones that are enriched and enlivened when people with disabilities are sharing their gifts, talents, friendship, faith and contributions within that community. So while we often talk about flourishing at the personal level, I think one of the things we're interested in is, how are communities flourishing because people with developmental disabilities are present and contributing. That's a different narrative, too, and I think it comes back to a lot of the themes you've been talking about throughout this podcast, of when we think about inclusion as something that's good for you, we never seem to really get around to it when we think about this as something that's good for us, that our classrooms are enriched, or our faith communities are fuller and more faithful, because every member's present, that changes things a little bit. But we're really trying to think about, how do we capture that communities are really flourishing, that people are really flourishing, and that's really hard work. Tim, when you're trying to measure and capture the things that matter most, those are the hardest things to figure out how to measure. The long answer to your question about thriving and flourishing, it's really just helping people live the good, abundant lives that anyone of us would want to live, and figuring out how we move in that direction more fully

Tim Villegas

07:42

amazing. Thank you. I don't think I know your origin story. Erik, like, why is all of this work belonging flourishing? Why is that important to you in your life?

Erik Carter

07:58

I think it's personal. I would say for all of us, we all long to belong to a people, to a place, to someone or somewhere. What's important because it's our human desire. We are created for community, and we thrive most in the midst of people who care for us, who get excited and rejoice in our presence and who miss us in our absence. There's just this element of my desire for myself to find a community of belonging and for my kids and for my family to experience that, and for my neighbors and others to experience that deep joy that comes from knowing you matter within a group that matters to you, and that I think would when you spend time engaged in schools and in the lives of students with developmental disabilities, you quickly see how elusive that experience of belonging can be when you care deeply about people and want them to flourish, as we were talking about, it starts to drive you to think what is standing in the way of people coming to be known and loved and befriended and all of those things that relate to belonging. So at one level, there's the larger answer of just knowing it matters to anyone, and then there's this personal answer of I grew up in a world that didn't functionally include people with developmental disabilities, and those of you who are listeners to the podcast know the history of our field, but growing up and not seeing kids with disabilities in my schools or neighborhood or as I grew up as an adolescent, in the places I worked or the clubs I was part of, and so the absence of people with developmental disabilities was certainly a core theme of so many people's lives then, and I would say now, it wasn't until I was 18 and stumbled into the lives of some other 18 and 19 year olds with developmental disabilities, and developed some wonderful friendships, and in those friendships to find an acceptance of an embrace, a sense of belonging. Belonging that I experienced in those relationships, it stoked in me a desire to or questions, I guess one is, why did I never encounter the segment of my community for all those years growing up, and how many other young people are missing the opportunity to encounter the wonderful friendship, gifts, talents and personalities of young people with developmental disabilities. So I think for me, why it matters is I experience belonging in those relationships, and I feel sad that other people haven't had the opportunity to experience them, and this desire to unlock our schools and communities. So those kinds of encounters aren't as rare now as they were four years ago or 30 years ago, however old I am, it's both seeing the elusiveness of belonging for so many people and then catching glimpses of what comes to be when people experience it. How do we make that the normative experience for anyone? So those two are just elements of what drives that, and I'm glad to talk about what we see in our research, just about the absence of this still presently, in this decade, we've come far, but not far enough in terms of this becoming the reality. Well,

Tim Villegas

11:09

yeah, let's talk about the research, because if the word belonging and developmental disability, you know Erik Carter, your name has become synonymous with those concepts and topics because you've been involved with a lot of research around this. What surprises you, even now, after all of these years of researching this idea,

Erik Carter

11:34

I think I'm captivated by the notion of belonging, because it's given a much richer, fuller language to talk about what I think we're really aiming for, than than the past words of integration or inclusion and and so I am not an expert in belonging, but I'm curious and trying to figure out what it looks like to move in ways that make this a greater reality. I think before I talk about what surprised us, let me share briefly what we mean when we say belonging, at least in what's emerging from our conversations and work and observations with people with developmental disabilities and their families. And this is important, because belonging is becoming a buzzword, Tim as you hear, and like a lot of buzzwords in our field, there's often not a lot of substance behind what we say. And these are themes throughout your podcast that we call a lot of things inclusion, that aren't really inclusion, a lot of things that are self determination or flourishing, that if you scratch a little deeper, you see it's only the veneer. And I worry about that with belonging. Belonging is really hard to define, but it's interesting, because people could tell stories about belonging. They can talk about the joy they experience when they do belong. They can talk about the deep hurt and wounding when they don't. And so we've listened to those stories and observed people's experiences, and out of that, distilled what we call 10 dimensions of belonging. For those of you who want to read more about this, we can post some articles on this, but when we listen closely, those themes end up being belonging involves being present and being invited, being welcomed and known, being accepted, being supported, being heard, being befriended, being needed and being loved. And what I love about those 10 aspects of belonging is those resonate immediately with us. It's language that connects back with our own experiences, and it takes an important concept and almost operationalizes it for us and puts it in language that we can act on. We can invite people, we can welcome people. We can come to know them and accept and support. We can listen and befriend and come to value and love people. So I love that sense of it, and I think that is the framework that we're working with, not that that is the definition of belonging. That is just sort of elements that emerge, and people are going to have different prioritization of different ones of those, and it's going to look different across concepts. So I wanted to start with that in terms of what we mean. What surprises I mean is how much this resonates with people. When we talk about this in schools, people start to realize this is not really just about people with developmental disabilities or our students. This need for belonging. This actually a universal need and not a special need. These dimensions of belonging are what we want every student in our school. So whereas so many of our conversations become about them or us or this group or that group, it becomes a unifying concept, and now a school can start to say, yeah, how can we foster belonging for all of our students, including and especially those for whom some of those dimensions of belonging? Are so elusive, so that resonating is, I don't think in the 25 years of work I've done anything has sort of more captured people's attention who aren't in the disability spaces than this and become language that connects those worlds. And the second thing that comes to mind, as you asked that that surprised me is actually how little this belonging is debated. Inclusion is debated and discussed all the time. People fold into camps of who's for it or against it. Nobody debates belonging. When people affirm that, then the question is, what are the ways we can design our schools and our workplaces that lead in the direction of this experience of belonging, which leads you back so much to being included in the life of that school or faith community, it takes down the temperature and leads people in the same direction. Belonging isn't about programming, it's about people and relationships. How do we foster relationships when our communities are separated and segregated and when people are living parallel lives? So I've loved that it's been an entry point around some heated debates. I'm still very willing and eager to engage in debates about inclusion. It becomes sort of people can quickly wrap around. And then I think third, this is complex and multifaceted, and I love that it takes us to deeper discussions than just where students spend their days. It pushes us to think about who they spend their days with. So often, the conversations about inclusion are about what class you're enrolled in. I know that's not what inclusion is, but it's the language so often people use. And so we can push people past that first dimension of belonging, of just are they present in that classroom, and start to think about this sort of richer experience, so that just as we pull that back, you start to see all these dimensions of an experience that are mere, much more than about what you learn and where you're sitting. And then, I guess not a surprise, two more are coming to mind. But yeah, I think the not surprise is how elusive this is, and when you share this framework with families, to see the tears that emerge of both this is their deep desire, and yet, how out of reach this can feel for their kids. And that invitation to a birthday party or a sleepover, or that invitation to be part of an extracurricular club or to tend to football game or hang out or sit together at lunch or be part of the same class project, those ordinary experiences are still just so out of reach for so many of our students, which I think takes me to the fifth surprise. And this may sound contradictory to some of the things I've mentioned earlier, but when I think about belonging in this way, it strikes me how actually within our reach, this is to address that when you think about making sure people are invited and present welcomed and known and accepted and supported and heard and befriended and needed and loved, these are things we know how to do. These are things that are in the capacity of people and schools and workplaces and elsewhere. They require more ordinary responses than specialized programs. So you're inviting people to do things they know how to do, but they often don't think to do or remember to do when they're thinking about students with disabilities. Examples would be our peer mediated work of connecting kids in a classroom and holding paraprofessionals and adults sort of to the background, to these facilitative roles, and just getting kids to sit alongside each other, to learn together, to work on the same project, to share their ideas and notes and things, doesn't require dramatic changes. It's more ordinary gestures, the connection that it evokes in people. And then when, when you ask people, What are some ways you can invite better, and ways you can have support better, all kinds of ideas start to flood the people's mind. And so I think those are some of the surprises, and also give me hope that maybe this is some of the language and sort of approach that might take us a little bit further than we are right now.

Tim Villegas

19:31

What I'm hearing is that belonging and and how you've, I guess, characterize belonging in these 10 dimensions, which, which are fantastic. We'll definitely put a link, whatever link you want, sure, because I know there's a few to explain that it's really about becoming more human, seeing each other as human and as having more. Earth. As you were talking, a song lyric kept going through my mind. It's by you two. It's the song invisible. There's a line. There is no them, only us. I'm often reminded when we're talking about belonging, accepting inclusion, that ideally we're all on the same side, the we're all together, and how can we move beyond the Us and Them thinking? Because it's everywhere. It's in our divided political nature as a country in a world, right? It's in local school buildings. Those are your kids. These are my kids, and even in our family structures in our neighborhoods. So how can we as humans begin to foster inclusion and belonging wherever we are? I think you've already touched on that by thinking about the dimensions, thinking about what it means to belong. You don't have to have a degree in philosophy or education to practice some of those things.

Erik Carter

21:13

Yeah, and it's not to say that there's not a place for some of the great specialized knowledge and strategies in intervention. There's a place for those things, but to remember that these are ordinary gestures that we want to receive every day and that we often give every day. But again, because of how we've designed our schools and systems, so often, there aren't people to extend those gestures to people with developmental studies and vice versa. There's not been opportunities for people with developmental disabilities too often to come to know, welcome, invite and befriend others. We've just set up structures that limit those encounters. So how we do it? Yeah, it's, it's definitely, definitely requires an intentionality. And so I think you know, one of the first things that comes to mind is just to notice, if we're intentional about reflection, reflecting on whatever our sphere of influence is, whether that's the classroom that I'm leading or the school that I'm leading or or the congregation I'm part of, or the work where I work, to begin to notice are people in My midst experiencing those 10 dimensions of belonging. Who is and isn't invited? Are people welcomed well when they arrive? Do we know that people with developmental disease well? Are they well known and rightly known? Or what's this? What's the degree of acceptance? Are there supports in place? So part of the framework that I love is it just tuning in us into notice, which then positions us to actually think about what in my sphere of influence, can I do in that area? And I think that's often it most this resonates so deeply with schools and they're like when they begin to reflect together of what are we doing really well in each of those areas, what do we need to do different or better, and what do we do next? All kinds of ideas flood to mind. It's often this unintentional overlooking of these very simple things right in front of us because of our greater attention towards academics, behavioral issues or other things like that. So as we think about what we do, are we noticing this? Are we reflecting on this regularly, to see for whom this may be elusive, and then beginning to think about what are the practices we can put in place that aim towards those individually and often, we can come up with those pretty readily. Sometimes there's some learning we need to do that benefits from some training on some practices that do lead in those directions to learn more about peer mediated supports, how we differentiate instruction or how we provide supports, or communication supports to those who have complex communication challenges, but we don't think about those until we begin to notice these different elements. So I think there's value in that, and I'm not trying to oversimplify it. Oh, if you simply notice, you'll always know what to do. But I'm afraid we look at that first dimension is a person present in the school. We've checked it off, our jobs done, and we're trying to push us to to think deeper, so that if I'm at an IEP meeting and I'm talking about a student's educational experience, I'm thinking about that question, are there any kids in this school that he gets to hang out and eat lunch with that notice when he doesn't come to school, and follows up to find out why that invite him to a sleepover or to hang out after school. And if the answer to all of those is no, that should push us to say, what is it about how we're designing the school day that prevents those kinds of encounters? Because here's a great kid with wonderful qualities and passions and interests that other kids need to know, and no one's having that opportunity reflecting on that which you never see at an IEP meeting. It's the objectives and the learning goals. We're pushing people to notice that. Where are this where is this student's opportunities to serve or to lead to be. Needed to have a valued role. Those kinds of questions can open up people's imagination, and usually we can figure things out when we've done that. That's

Tim Villegas

25:09

interesting that you bring up the IEP meeting, and I wonder if you have had any feedback of people using the dimensions of belonging in an IEP meeting? Have you heard of that? No,

Erik Carter

25:21

that's a great question. We've seen it more used at school wide reflection, whereas part of a faculty meeting or school wide, they'll take these 10 dimensions of belonging, they'll take those three questions, what are we doing really well that we want to celebrate and keep doing? What do we need to do better or more of what do we do completely differently the school is thinking about all kids, but also many kids who are on the peripheries, who don't have disabilities, who have other experiences that place them on the outskirts of learning communities, and then from there, beginning to reflect on sort of school wide practices. But I think it's entirely appropriate to, in some ways, pull those out and think about all right, well, where is this student present as we think about all of the aspects of this great school, all these incredible classes and clubs and extracurricular experiences and after school experiences, is this student present in all those places that other kids are present and if not, what stands in the way? Is it the lack of invitation. Who are the people, teachers and peers, who are inviting and pursuing their presence. So I think you can use it in that way to kind of prompt some of that reflection. It's antithetical to the way we often see IEPs happen of efficiency and quickness and focusing on the procedural parts. But this is why most of us got into this work talk to Special Ed teachers or gen ed teachers, or they want their kids to experience belonging. So I think there's certainly structures that prevent those kinds of conversations. But wouldn't that be a beautiful set of questions to introduce into all of our planning and to have an accountability it's not just about what kids learn, but also about who comes to know them and who befriends them, and that experience of belonging, and if we do that, well, maybe they better positioned to learn in a school like that. I love that way of thinking.

Tim Villegas

27:13

Erik, what is your connection with being a part of the faith community, discovering and researching belonging in your work, because it has historically been tied to a faith community, and I'm assuming the Christian faith and congregations like that. What lessons have you learned? And could you explain that connection? Because I think that's an important connection for educators as we're thinking about the context this discussion. Yeah,

Erik Carter

27:49

absolutely. I think you were asking about my origin story at the outset of this conversation, and that origin story didn't just involve discovering new friendships at 18 from segment of my community that I had completely overlooked or never been given the opportunity to encounter. But through those friendships, I discovered a rich and enviable faith that these young people loved God, loved others, wanted to share that love of God with others. I found that faith to be real and captivating. It became the entry point to which I became a Christian, through their testimony and through their lived out relationships that I found so compelling and so counter to what I saw in traditional churches and elsewhere. So that's an important catalyst, because that's not often how we think about who might be the best witness for sharing their faith is people with developmental disabilities. We often think about ministry to people with disabilities and not often about ministry by people with disabilities. So that shaped my whole thinking is what a gift I received in that friendship and that faith and this desire, then to open up faith communities so other people could also experience that faith. It's no different. It's not better or worse, qualitatively different, quantitatively different. It's just as real and attractive. And yet so many congregations, like so many schools, struggle to find a place for people with developmental disabilities in their faith community, there's a resistance to rethinking how we gather and teach and preach in ways that would widen the welcome and opening our expectations up for wider ways of being and participation in our faith communities. For me, it's a personal connection. I think it matters for all of our work, because as a transition teacher, when I talked to the families that I serve, and I asked them and their kids about what mattered most to them, many of their stories led back to the place of faith in their lives. That was something that mattered for their family, that was part of their life. It was a key a source of spiritual or emotional, relational and practical supports. Yeah, so I learned quickly as a transition teacher, if I wanted to help young people leaving high school flourish in their community, I needed to understand what mattered to them as well, and not just how do I help them, support them to go on to lifelong learning or a job or participation in their community, but also to flourish in their faith. So that became a real interest of mine as well. I think there's some unique issues that arise as we think about inclusion in faith communities, but also some opportunities for real imagination in our faith communities to lead the way when it comes to inclusion, not driven by legislation or law, but really compelled by a theological grounding that we are to be communities where every member matters equally. That's what I love about the opportunities in faith communities, is to really think deeply about what does it look like to be one body that flourishes together, and while my own tradition is the Christian tradition. I'm working hard to to transform the 320,000 congregations across the US when we also have our commitment to supporting families. We're supporting those families in whatever faith tradition matters to them. And that requires us trying to figure out, what does that look like to to support someone or build connections or capacity when someone's practicing their faith in a way very different than I'm used to, that has opened me up to all kinds of creative possibilities. It strikes me that whenever one congregation struggles to welcome a youth or a young adult with developmental solutions because of how they behave or communicate or you find another congregation that can embrace that, because that's how they worship as well. So the noise of one place that becomes a problem becomes the gift in another place. And I think we have an opportunity to learn from the varied ways that faith communities gather to figure out what this could look

Tim Villegas

31:55

like. Yeah, I think that that's a interesting parallel between any sort of community is that some communities have a predisposition to acceptance, belonging and inclusion, and it doesn't necessarily have to correlate with faith. I feel like this is a generalization, and definitely just my opinion as an observer of humans in our world, there is a lot of loneliness and a lot of where do I fit in this world? A lot of thinking about this, right? And while I have been part of a faith community for as long as I can remember, that has always been a source of strength, for me, is being a part of something. And I wonder how those communities, and it may not be a faith community, but building communities for people to feel like they belong. I wonder if that could be an antidote to that feeling of loneliness.

Erik Carter

33:05

You named something that, going back to what got me into this, that universal longing to belong is also couched in a culture in which loneliness and isolation is epidemic, and that's the public health risk the Surgeon General has a name. We've got a culture where we're all feeling more and more disconnected and polarized and separated, including people with developmental disabilities. It reminds me of a point that is both theological and empirical, that it's not good to be alone, that is the heart's cry and the reality for so many of us, it seems faith communities have a distinct call to be places where people aren't alone, where people can experience belonging, belonging to God, belonging to one another. And it's not an optional thing. It's actually theologically grounds so many faith traditions, it's an opportunity to figure out, how do we live out this thing that we are called to be about? And that's where I see the opportunity, the deep frustration when faith communities, like other communities, fail to do that. Well, there is a particular hurt and wounding when your faith community can't find a place for you, when this sort of deep sense of strength can't figure out how your gift matters or how your presence enriches the community, or adopts a posture of referring you elsewhere or asking you not to come back, there is a particular wounding present among all sorts of people, but particularly around families impacted by disability and Tim we had in one of our studies, found with this study, with Melinda ALT and Bella Collins and some others, that one in three families had left their congregation. Because their child with developmental studies wasn't welcomed or included. So while there's this unique opportunity, and there's certainly stories that abound, of congregations that get this right and are marked by inclusion and belonging, there are still too many stories of that deep wounding. I think you're right. There's an opportunity to imagine what that can look like, and I would love to see faith communities shining in this area, and I would love to see people who are part of those faith communities, than to take that back to their schools. They work in the neighborhoods, they live in, the community programs they're part of, and live that faith out in those contexts and help call and advocate for communities to be about those things as well. There's an opportunity for a transformative influence there, but I don't feel like we're on the cusp of that. I think we're still a long way of convincing every part of our community to be about this piece. The difference is that there are some that are faith communities. It's not a choice, it's an obligation. We must be about these things, and it's unfaithfulness when we're excluding people with disabilities. It's contrary to our tradition. It's the opposite of the gospel message in those senses. So I have a particular passion and drive to move the needle there, both because of my own personal convictions, but because I know this matters to so many young people and their families.

Tim Villegas

36:38

So let's look to the future of what things can you talk about that you're working on at Baylor? Is there any project or event that you want to let our listeners know about?

Erik Carter

36:51

Well, we're still new in reimagining the next season of our center. And encourage you to check out the work of the Baylor Center for Developmental Disabilities. We've named some signature areas that matter because we're listening closely to what are the things that lead to people's flourishing, and those are areas of family and faith, education, transition to adulthood and belonging, where we're launching new projects. And so if those Captivate people's interests, we encourage you to check that out. One of the areas we're particularly parking on is trying to launch a new collaborative on faith and disability, try to bring the theological reflection and the important research and empirical work to bear, to really figure out what are faithful and fruitful practices that begin to move congregations in this direction of inclusion and belonging. I think, like a lot of areas, we have stagnated for a long time, and we've had some emerging research about what might be possible, but we've struggled to translate that research in ways that an ordinary layperson, or in this case, a congregation leader, can pick up and adopt. It turns out that pastors and priests and rabbis don't read our peer reviewed journal articles, and so many people don't read our peer reviewed journal articles, rather than lamenting that we're trying to create mechanisms that takes the very best of what we know works, takes the very most the best of what we know is right and the way things ought to be, and works to translate that in ways that makes it accessible for ordinary communities. This is actually our posture in all all of these different areas, but we're envisioning some really unique tools that can guide congregations in reflecting, noticing, acting and moving forward in ways that make belonging abound in greater ways. So I think that's one of the things that most excites us. There is really nowhere in the country doing empirical research and intervention work in this space. So how great would it be to have a strong grounding of best practices for those 325,000 congregations, and in doing that? So that's one place, I think. The other place that we're interested in, but haven't really begun heavy work is thinking about non public schools, both religiously affiliated and non religiously affiliated, that to consider themselves exempt so many things, but and are are really not shining. What's the opposite of not shining but not shopping when it comes to serving people with developmental disabilities? I think we're really interested in how do we catalyze movement in public schools, faith based schools and non religious schools, to get some movement in places that feel like they don't have the resources or capacity, but are graduating class after class, or generation after generation of young people who, like me, many years ago, are growing up in a world that doesn't include people with disabilities. How can those young people lead communities, congregations and corporations and and how can they lead if they've never a community? Well, if they've grown up in the absence of people with developmental disability, we're really moved to figure out how we can move those schools as well, but trying to figure out what would that look like to do that in systemic ways? So those are things that are on our minds. We're just entering our sort of next season of the center, excited about these very real challenges. And I would say, for those of you listening, meeting good collaborators, to think alongside us for how we do this work. I'm not an expert on belonging. I'm curious and passionate and eager to come alongside people who can bring the kind of topical and methodological and lived experience expertise we need to move some of these things in much faster ways than they're they've been moving the last 30 years.

Tim Villegas

40:44

Well, we are excited for what the center will bring, and consider us a collaborator. Erik, all right, we're gonna move on to our last segment. The mystery question is something that I love to have with our guests. If you're game, I have a stack of cards that I pick. They're just these prompt cards that I got from a podcast company, and I started using them a while ago. People seem to like it. So are you game for the mystery question happens?

Erik Carter

41:13

As long as we're not in scandalous territory,

Tim Villegas

41:16

we're pretty good. And if I in and I always have veto power. You can have veto power as well, all right, but this is great. I'm gonna hold it up to the camera. There we go. It is, what does your typical Friday night look like? Dr Erik Carter, typical

Erik Carter

41:35

in the last week has been unpacking boxes with my family and rediscovering things we packed a year ago, life has finally led us to a home. So that's the exciting part. Is that usually we're out now in this wonderful waco community, discovering one of the great restaurants here as we get real Tex Mex and real cargo, yes, things that have transformed my understanding of what good barbecue is. You'll usually find this at one of the local haunts discovering a new place here in Waco. So gaining weight. Fridays would be gaining weight. I'm interested

Tim Villegas

42:12

about barbecue. I live in the Atlanta area, even though I work for the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education, so I work remotely. I'm originally from California. I thought I knew what barbecue was, but I did not know what barbecue was until I moved to the south. There's barbecue in Georgia and then there's Tennessee barbecue, sure, right, which is, I'm very familiar, but how is it different in in Texas? Like, how would you describe the barbecue in Texas.

Erik Carter

42:42

Oh my goodness, the brisket melts so it's smoked. It's not saucy, it's just smoked long and deep, and you put it in your mouth and your day's done, if it's true of other places. But I'm in love with that. All is well, among all the other challenges, finding good barbecue is not one of them, exactly.

Tim Villegas

43:02

So if you're in Texas, does that mean you have a buckies? We do have

Erik Carter

43:06

a buckies, although they're all over the place, it's a destination, isn't it? So yeah, if you're

Tim Villegas

43:11

not familiar with buckies, they're kind of, I think they started in Texas, but there's definitely they're permeating throughout the country, and there's one about 45 minutes from our house. If you take 75 straight up in Georgia, there's one in between Atlanta and Chattanooga in Tennessee. If we're ever traveling up that way, I'm like, it's, it's a must stop, because their brisket is fantastic. And you know it's Tech, I guess it's Texas brisket, right? Well,

Erik Carter

43:43

for those of you who haven't been if you're ever driving down the highway and you think to yourself, I really need some sour candies, a gas grill, wooden art from my walls, some clothing and a 58 ounce soft drink, all in one place. Buckies will do it for you. Buckies is your bizarre, bizarre that you have to experience. It really

Tim Villegas

44:05

is, and my kids do not like it at all, especially my oldest. She just gives the biggest eye roll when I want to go to buckies. All right, I'm going to answer this question as well, right? What do you got my typical Friday night? Lately, my Friday nights have looked different. My oldest is preparing to launch to college. Just graduated from high school, a lot of it is prepping, figuring that out, and shopping. Lately, we've been trying to spend a lot of family time together. We do play a lot of games, and we really love this card game called Flux. Have you ever heard of flux? Flux is there are many different versions, but the essential idea is that the rules change as you play the game. Everyone gets cards, and the basic rule is, you draw one and you play one all of the. Flux games have different themes. So one's a doctor who theme. Last night we played a Wizard of Oz theme. There's like a math theme. So if you want to check that out, it's F, U, L, X, X, not a sponsor, but definitely fun. Since the rules constantly change, you never know who's going to win. At any point you have a strategy, and then it can all fall apart at the end. So we really enjoy playing games, and flux is one of them. So I think we're trying to squeeze out as much family time as possible before everyone disperses. So that's what my Friday nights are looking like, right?

Erik Carter

45:36

It sounds like Fridays are about belonging as a family, and that seems like a good sort of tie in our conversation, but well done.

Tim Villegas

45:48

Erik Carter, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast.

Erik Carter

45:51

You bet. Thank you Tim, for having me always good to be with

Tim Villegas

45:53

you. Welcome back, everybody. I really appreciated my conversation with Dr Erik Carter, and we're going to do this segment again that we had last week. Called three for me, two for you. So three reflections and then two calls to action. My first reflection about my conversation belonging and inclusion get confused and also, I think it gets misinterpreted as this linear experience, like inclusion happens on the way to belonging. I just don't think that is correct. Having a conversation with Dr Carter, I'm not sure that he would describe it like that as well. The dimensions of belonging can fluctuate. It's really about having the conversation of, am I experiencing belonging? Is the student or the learner experiencing belonging? And then also, how can we as a school or district facilitate and foster the elements of belonging for our learners. So that's my first one. I also really loved what Dr Carter said about how there's no argument around belonging. Usually, the conversation is, are you for inclusion, or are you not for inclusion? These are the benefits of inclusion, or these are the pros or cons about inclusion. But there really isn't that discussion around belonging, and I think that's a really great thing to highlight, so it could be a sneaky way for you as an educator to start bringing up conversations about belonging in your school or district. So just something to think about. Dr Carter also expressed how some school districts we're utilizing the tool of the 10 dimensions of belonging as a reflection for a school staff or a district. And so I just wanted to call that out and make sure we're going to link that resource in the show notes so that you can access that. But I think that is a great way to bridge this conversation about inclusion versus belonging. In my opinion, as long as we're talking about language and messaging, I think belonging is within the big idea of inclusion. So I try not to use them as the same thing. It's an interesting discussion. We'll be having more discussions about that, especially as the season goes forward. This bridges to the two things that I'd love for you to do. The first thing is to actually go and look up the tool that Dr Carter has, and to download it and go over it, either by yourself or with someone at your school district. I think it's a really useful activity, and some things that could bring a lot of great discussion. And the next thing I'd love for you to do is when you hear colleagues talk about inclusion, especially within the context of, is it the right thing to do? Is it not right for everyone? And all this type of discussion around the word inclusion, I'd like for you to bring up the concept of belonging, and especially after going through the tool and talking about some of the dimensions, like being accepted, invited, welcomed, even loved, asking those kinds of questions, like, are. Are students with disabilities, especially students with more significant and complex support needs. Are they present? Are they invited? Are they welcomed? Are they loved? You can try to steer the conversation in that direction and see where it goes and when you do, let me know about it. I want to know if that was an effective strategy for talking about inclusive practices. You can always email me at T Villegas at mcie org. That's T, V, I, L, L, E, G, A, S at mcie org. That's it for this episode of Think inclusive. Thanks for hanging out with me at the Marietta square in Georgia with the beautiful fountain in my background if you're watching on YouTube, thank you so much to our sponsor, IXL. Learn more about IXL at ixl.com/inclusive Original Music by miles. Kredit, additional music from melody, thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works from mcie or.

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