You're listening to Cubicle to CEO episode 185. What gives you the marketing ick? If you're tired of seeing gurus pose in front of Ferraris and reliving the same formulaic webinar, complete with inflated value stacks and fear induced FOMO. Today's conversation will feel refreshing in more ways than one. We're joined by my friend Gloria Chow, an award winning Small Business PR coach, who has helped her community generate more than 1 billion free organic views for their businesses through features and top tier media outlets. GLORIA brings us a brutally honest analysis of her most recent program launch of PR starter pack, where she tested rejecting the most popular bro marketing tactics that have dominated the last decade. Her experiment resulted in not only a six figure launch, but half of her previous refund rate. She'll walk us through exactly what she ditched why, and how that had a positive impact on her bottom line, mental sanity and relationship with our students keep listening to usher in a new era of transparent ethical marketing. Welcome to cubicle to CEO the podcast. I'm your host Ellen Yin. I quit my job without a backup plan and bootstrapped my first $300 freelance project into $2 million in revenue by age 28. On the show, you'll hear weekly case study interviews with leading entrepreneurs and CEOs who share one specific strategy that successfully grew their business revenue. Skip the expensive and time consuming learning curve of testing everything yourself by borrowing what actually works from the best and brightest mentors. You'll also get a front row seat to my founders journey through transparent income reports and behind the business solo episodes, subscribe now so we can grow together every Monday.
Hello, friends, I am excited to have my friend Gloria Chow here on the podcast today. This is long overdue. Gloria and I have been friends for I think close to two years now. And I actually got the chance to hang out with her when I was in New York City last summer. She hosted us at her apartment afterward, and we had dinner together. And it was it was just an amazing time. She is truly one of the most genuine human beings you will ever get the chance to meet. So Gloria, I love you. Thank you for coming on the show today. And I'm really excited to jump into your case study.
Love you right back.
All right, Gloria, you have a cubicle to CEO story. That's not necessarily super traditional. But I still want to hear it like our listeners, tell us how you made that jump from employee to entrepreneur?
Well, I was the employee of employees, I was actually in the government. So I was locked in for 25 year career with a pension. So I used to be a US diplomat with a security clearance. And I was looking at a very comfortable career, you know, got to go through the diplomatic line, have diplomatic need all of the things right. And I was just deeply miserable, because it was very much military ask hierarchy. And it works. For some people. It didn't work for me. And I felt so stuck. Even though on the outside, I had a picture perfect life, right, I got to travel, I got to work abroad. And I basically after my first tour abroad, I was a cat three more years of doing the same thing. In a different country. And I just couldn't do any more. I probably applied to over 1000 jobs to try to leave well, you know, having a job. I but I just couldn't I actually wanted to work in PR because I love seeing people when I knew I was a great communicator. But I probably had over 1000 applications. I had people putting in like references for me and they all wanted very cookie cutter PR agency experience which I never had. And to this day, I've never worked at an agency. So basically, I had to move home kill my ego got got back on unemployment, and started to rebuild my life from there. And I started my PR literally and like can you googling if there's like a siren going on what's up Brooklyn, literally googling the newsroom of New York Times operator, and then dialing zero, and then convincing that person to pass me on to the next person and just cold calling because I had no contacts in the media. I never studied media. And I think from Cold Calling 1000s of times, getting rejected phone slammed in my face. That's how I came up with my CPR pitching method that I now teach to entrepreneurs. So that's my story.
I am obsessed with your story for so many reasons. One being that I think you and I are maybe in the small percentage of people who actually enjoy talking on the phone. I think a lot of people like hate phone calls for a myriad of reasons, obviously, but I don't know there's something very comforting to me about just being able to discuss in real time with someone collaborate with someone in real time in a way that doesn't feel as energetically draining or draining may not be the right word but energetically present as sometimes being on video because You know, you're active listening, your whole body is participating in the conversation. Whereas I feel like phone calls are just very kind of, you know, you can be walking about doing your thing and still in conversation with someone. So I love that you cold called, you actually kind of just worked your way through all of the gatekeepers that you needed to get to the source or the journalist or the editor, whoever, and that you're so self taught in this area, I bet that actually plays to your advantage, sometimes not having a formal background in PR, because you're not so boxed in by the limitations of what like textbook PR is. So if you're a founder, especially if you're a woman owned business, or women of color, Glory's approach to PR, I think is just so simple yet so revolutionary, and highly recommend you spend some time googling Gloria Chao, or Small Biz PR podcast, if you want all the details on her background there. But, of course, the purpose of our show is to talk about stuff that you can't google. So that leads us to your case study today, Korea, which is all about comparing the launches between your February 2022, and your October 2022. Launch for PR starter pack, which is your signature program, and how in the most recent one, you actually intentionally rejected a bunch of traditional marketing or bro marketing tactics that led you to your best launch ever in an economic downturn. So let's just start by setting the stage, what were your revenue numbers from February 2020, to that launch, compared to the October one.
So I wanted my first six figure launch, so I was able to accomplish that in February. So we did a little bit over maybe 100, or 5000, we've got a lot more refunds. And we did and in the latest one, so move over to October, like fast forward, October 2022. We did 125,000. That's amazing. And way less refunds, and we pretty much spent the same amount of money in ADS. So we were able to get so much more ROI. Because we were able to dial in on our messaging.
And I do want to actually circle back later to this concept of or not even concept, this data point around refund rates, because this is something that I love your that you're so transparent on because a lot of people don't I mean, they kind of like to keep that hush hush, right? Like, they have a refund. They're like, oh, let's not tell anyone, you're very straightforward about it. And I think your self awareness around even tracking this metric and looking for ways to improve is something that's worth hearing. So I'll circle back to that. But let's let's first start with like the list of essentially bro marketing tactics that you checked out the window. So first thing that you did was you revealed your price at the beginning. So tell me about that decision? Why Why choose to state the price right from the get go?
You know, traditionally were told by marketers, you need to kind of get them to stay on till the end, give them a chance to win an iPad and kind of almost trick them into making a decision. And I think because of the inundation of people being like, I don't want another course like, we're just so over. And I'm not sure that works anymore, right. So in taking apart my messaging and going from February's launch to all the work that I did around my own scarcity, mindset, healing, my own scarcity, trauma, and the work that I did around, you know how I can support women of color, that journey led me to basically see the ways where I just brainwashed into the status quo, where it's like, well, everyone does this. So I had to do that. And that was one of the first things I did because my ethical copywriter, Brittany McBean, she actually was the one that told me this, this idea, and she's like, you know, more and more people are doing this. I don't think it's really common. But I think if you do reveal it at the beginning, it's going to be really powerful. And yeah, people are going to leave, and they're going to leave the room, whatever. And that's fine. You have to lean into the space where you're not trying to attract every person, you only want the healthiest people. And when she said that, I think it's something clicked in my mind. Because I think before we're as course creators, we just want everyone to love us. Everyone can join right? But that's actually not the key to success. I found that the more polarizing I'm not saying that you should offend people, but the more polarizing you aren't taking a stand, actually, people lean way in Yeah, you're gonna have people who are going to eject themselves out of the room that that's fine. So when I did that, and I revealed it, I saw the live chat going off and people were like, wow, this is amazing like this, how would this is or some people were like, you know, this just not for me right now by or, you know, people left, and that's fine. But I saw that overall, when I did that most people stayed on until the end, even without all these gimmicks about staying until the end when an iPad, things like that. They actually naturally stayed until the end. It kind of almost took the pressure off because I literally say here's something that I want to do. I know some of you might leave But here is what I will show you at the end, right? It's going to lead to the next step. And no matter if you join or not, I will still give the value that I promise when you sign up for the webinar, which is to teach my CPR method. So if most people did actually stay on to the end.
I think that is so powerful, because to your point, I think some of those gimmicks that are often used in marketing can almost be a little bit infantilizing, right, it's like, you're telling someone, I don't trust you enough as an adult human being, to be able to make a decision for yourself on what's right for your business, or an investment that you think is worthwhile or valuable. But instead, when you pre frame from the very beginning, like, Hey, this is exactly what you can expect today, when you spend your time with me. And this is what it's going to lead to and no, you do not have to join my program. But I'm telling you, that's where this conversation will go. But either way, you're leaving the room with the value that you came for in terms of, you know, the promise of the of the free class, I just think that's so empowering. I think that it, if someone shared that with me, I would feel even better about how I'm choosing to spend my time in that class. So I love that you had such great feedback and to your point that the people who were obviously not going to be the healthiest people just left and filtered themselves out. The second thing that I really thought was interesting that you did is around removing the value stack, which if you're listening to this, and I'm sure you've all been on a webinar and know what this is, but in case you don't value stack is typically at the end of the webinar, when someone's pitching their offer, they are showing like almost an itemized list of all of the different features or benefits that you're going to receive by purchasing, they assign a value to each of those things, you know, total the sum up and then they usually slashed the price into, you know, something significantly less. So it feels like a really great deal. Now, I'm going to insert my opinion here and say I don't necessarily think that value stacks are inherently wrong. But I do think Gloria has a really great reason for why she felt like this wasn't necessary for her class. So Gloria, I would love to hear your take on this.
Well, I think traditionally, from the funnel bros, right? The ones that kind of paved the way for the industry. In the beginning, when we're creating courses, we just did what they did, right? Because they were the ones that were doing the most. So we're like, Okay, this is what it is, again, it's all about decolonizing your mind. And so as I was doing the work and figuring out what is really true for me, and what is just me being imprinted by someone else, I looked at the way that I gave into that by stacking all the value. And I felt like it didn't really convince people because if it did, then obviously when I took it off, the sales would be less, right. So even though I did value stack in our earlier launch, and our later launch, I decided to take away all those numbers. And people really loved it because I actually talked to someone else. And they said, Oh, look, they're rolling. Their eyes are like I hate it when people say you can get all this for $9,999 today for $50. And it's like what you said it's almost tricking someone. And it's a little insulting, I think. And it's almost sounds like an infomercial. So I decided to not do that. So I took away the entire column. And I could have said, you know, because we do have a PR database, which now is built on airtable got 80,000 contacts, I could say something like, normally sophomores like this would be x, y and z. Right. But I think there's a difference between like saying that, and being like 10,000 10,000 10,000. So for me, it's more of them. Anecdotal, like evidence of this is how much it would actually cost. And not saying this module here is 500. Because no one knows what the value of each module is. Right? Like, there's no real like barometer for that. So yeah, I took all that away. And I just revealed the final price.
I totally see your point there distinguishing between inflating prices artificially, so that you can have like a nice even number to come down to what I mean by that is, you know, often in bro marketing, it's like, okay, if you want to sell your course for $1,000, and you want your value stack to be worth 10,000. So you can say, Oh, look, it's basically like 90% off, right? And assigning random values to you know, like you said, modules or the value of the Facebook group or whatever, when it's not really rooted in any sort of like evidence based context versus like you said, it does sometimes makes sense to actually share, oh, this type of access to information or this level of support is actually x amount of dollars in the marketplace. But you're going to get a better value here today. The ladder feels more educational to me. Former feels like to your point, it just feels like people can't see through what that is. So I really liked the way you distinguish that.
Yeah. Another thing I'll add is when you do Put those inflated numbers or you assign an arbitrary number, you're basically making the assumption that your audience only cares about saving money, and that they only care about buying what's cheap. And that's absolutely not true. Sure, of course, like, you know, as a child of immigrants, like Elon, I'm sure, you know, like pinching pennies was how we were raised. But that's not the type of audience I'm trying to attract. Because I realized in order for you to advocate for yourself, and literally rewrite the narrative of what an entrepreneur looks like, through doing the sacred work of pitching, it takes more than just pinching pennies, right? So from a mindset shift, if you think about the law of energy, you are what you seek, if I just did all the value stack, and I was like, 90% off, I will only attract people who bought it, because they're getting a deal. But then maybe, maybe the program is not for them, because they're not looking for a transformation. So I do agree, instead of putting the value of a Facebook group, I would put what the value is a value is that they're validated that they're not alone in the scary journey, that someone can affirm them. To me, it's like, that's a better way to sell it is, here's what it is. And here's what you get. Not here's what it is. And it's 90% off.
Oh, that's so so good. Okay, this is going to be a little bit of a tangent. But since you brought this up, I can really relate, like you said, because we're both Chinese, we're both first gen in terms of living in America. And I totally relate to this, I guess this culture of if you can save the most amount of money that is a win or a success, right? And I actually saw a YouTube video recently that really blew open my mind on this discussion between what is the difference between being cheap and being frugal, and the way this person worded it was. So just like groundbreaking to me, I know, it's not a new concept. But the way they said it made sense to me, where they said, people who are cheap, only will buy things if it's the least amount of money. So to your point, they want to get the best possible deal. versus people who are frugal, it's not that they're not willing to spend money, but they're only going to spend money intentionally, if they believe the value is there. So they will pay whatever is right for the best value. And that isn't always the cheapest option, but they're going to be intentional with how they spend their money. And that just resonated so much with me and what you said just now about not setting yourself up to attract people who only care about getting the cheapest deal. Oh, my God, that was so good. Like, yeah, I'm like, okay, we can just end this conversation. Like you already, you already shared great value just through that one piece.
And the data proves it, because I know we're gonna jump to this, but it's refund rates, right? If people if you're doing the scarcity thing, two hours left, one hours left. And look, there's nothing wrong with offering a discount, I offer a five day window. So it's not that there's no urgency, but the whole thing is about provoking a nervous system response, not from an empowered place, but like FOMO place, right, a place of lack, you're gonna get more refunds, because it's a decision that's not with full of intent and empowerment. And so that was another shift I made was, Do I want to trick someone into a nervous system response where they're faux mowing? Or is it they're so ready, because the people who are ready and they see the value, not just trying to get 90% off, they will go in the program, they will live and breed the values, they will show up for you and they will get the transformation. And why are we even doing this if we're trying to sell courses to people and they're not even opening it right? Like you hear about the statistic people who get courses like 90% of them don't even open it. My job is I don't want anyone in my course that's not going to experience transformation that's not going to reflect well on me.
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100% and I actually experienced something similar in the in the final launch of my mentorship program last summer in August, when we closed the doors to my 12 month group mentorship program, we were so specific about calling out who we wanted in this program exactly what the value is exactly what the transformation would be. And what we expected of them as students as much as what they should expect of us, as you know, the coach or the educator or whatever we're delivering to them. And it was astounding, Gloria, just to visibly experience over the last, however many months it's been since August, the quality of questions, the level of show up rates on our calls, the type of wins, that these last cohort of students are getting is so different because they were bought into the transformation from the get go, they were not bought into, oh, can this be like a last ditch effort or like a to your point of FOMO? You know, push to join? So, so good. I just Yes, I'm saying yes to everything.
And you know what, Elon, it's a very complex and emotion filled process for all of us. Because, on one hand, I just say what I said. But on the other hand, I understand that people need a little bit of a push. So I struggle with that every day, honestly, where it's like, I'm not the pillar of of ethical business, right, I have a long way to go. Like, for example, one of the things is a lot of people who are in the ethical marketing industry, they do not offer a payment plan that is a higher total price. Right. And I know, I know, we have had a discussion about this, and it's very contentious. And that's something I struggle with, because you know, you can pay in full, or usually, if you pay in monthly payments, there's kind of an upcharge for that. So right now, I do have that. But that is something that I struggle with. And I and I wrestle with every day. So I kind of do see both sides.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, because there's a reason that certain marketing tactics have always worked, right, because it plays into the way that humans behave. And like you just said, there are times and situations where adding in a layer of urgency actually does benefit someone because nobody has helped when they're stuck in indecision, right? Like people who are just forever stuck in this no man's land of? I don't know, I don't know, like they don't choose either way, yes or no, they're not being helped, because they're obviously making no progress when they're stuck in that position. So helping them get off the fence and either decide yes or no, in my book, both are wins, because either way that person has clarity on how they want to move forward. And so I agree with you that there are instances where it makes sense to provide like a safe container for people to make a decision. And sometimes you have to layer in those elements to make that possible. But I love that what we're talking about here today, even though it's not about being a perfect business, right, I think that's another like level of pressure that we put on ourselves. It's not about being like this shining moral example, I think it's about being conscious of how our decisions impact the people that we're trying to serve. And and doing our best to create an empowered decision, like you said, rather than a lack decision.
And if I may, in terms of the energy of lack, because I'm all about energy, he's, you know, when you like try to close a car, and you get on like those 15 minute calls with people, like try to convince them. So I did that previously, not for the February launch, but it previously. And what I found was when I was in that mode of like trying to get them to convert, like showing them everything's in the portal, and just doing a demo that energy of like, urgency, never really converted well, because it wasn't about me listening to them. And like, What can I help you do? Right? It was more like, here's a program, I can't wait for you to join. And I noticed that when I do get it because we all do, right like scarcity has been ingrained in my bones. It's not like, I'm gonna wake up and completely get rid of it. I do see it creeping up where I it almost feels like a tightness in my chest where it's like, Oh, hey, we gotta hit our numbers. We gotta go. And whatever you're doing from that energy, I don't feel like it ever works. And when I actually like, step away a little bit from my computer, like I did in the October launch, like literally between the two live webinars. I mean, like 1000 people, like, you know, between the two, I literally close my laptop and I told my team, I'm like, You know what, whatever happens, I feel like we're all winners. I value you. And I just went I went out for a walk. Whereas in February I was such a dict hater. I was like an art, like the whole thing about leadership too. It's like scarcity versus I was very adamant. I was like, we need to, like, do more testimonials, like we need to kind of like hit our numbers. And it was almost like I was like driving this like big machine. And nobody, nobody wants to work with someone. No one wants to work with someone like that. So through my own journey of seeing the places where I really gave into scarcity, and was not the best leader that I could be, I see what's on the other side of that. And that is just you give it your all, maybe it's time to take a break and just trust in the universe. Instead of trying with 2030 different solutions just to make it work and fit everything in.
I really appreciate your honesty. And I'm, as I'm sitting here, just listening. You know, I know you personally, but I know many of our listeners who are tuning in today, this may be the first time they're meeting you and the fact that you are sharing with such open self evaluation, like the fact that you're so willing to say like, this is where I really fell short. Or this is what was really driving my motivations or desire like that, to me is is just so powerful, because I know you're not the only one who has felt that way. I know, I felt that way. You know, I know many people listening have probably felt that way. And so already, I just, you know, again, want to iterate how thankful I am for your honesty. That's one of my favorite things about you.
Thank you. Yeah, we can we can go down the honest rabbit hole, maybe it gets too real. But that's for another episode, I think.
For the after show, by the way. Yeah. So come back and listen to our after show. It's always the last Tuesday of each month on Instagram at cubicle to CEO and we bring back all of our podcast guests. So anyways, the next thing that you did, or rather didn't do is previously PR started back actually remember this because I bought PR starter pack, I don't remember when I think it was in 2020. And at the time, it was a truly DIY course right, there was really no regular coaching calls or anything like that. So this time around and your most recent launch, you chose to add a lot of support, including monthly calls without increasing the price. So tell us about this decision what led to this decision?
Well, so I think an online business, you hear a lot leverage your time try to get the most try to like not get any calls, these people don't deserve your time. And so even though I think boundaries are important, we have to remember why we started this business, we started a business not to make a machine that spits out money, we started this business to really make an impact in people's lives. And somehow, in my journey of scaling my business maybe a little bit too quickly. I bought into this internalized capitalism, which is like, more is always better, more at all costs. And I don't know if your listeners know this. But basically that launch in February, where I had like a lot of refund requests. And I still wasn't doing like a lot of the more ethical tactics, I suffered a complete mental breakdown because I had a huge open abdominal surgery where they took out an 11 centimeter fibroid in my uterus, just just three and a half weeks before the launch. So the fact that I made myself work with staples, like and like, it's just I look at that, and I want to cry for that person who thought that on day three of basically having a C section that I got back on the computer because my goal was six figure launch six figure launch. And guess what I did it, and it felt freakin awful. I was such a terrible person to my team. I was so worried about the people who wanted refunds. Instead of celebrating our success. I was like, what happened here, and I just spiraled into this ball of negative energy because I wasn't aligned. I wasn't right, I was just chasing that number with those zeros. So I think after, you know, doing this, like shiny object, like Oh, six figure launch, I did it. I was like something has to change because I'm reaching all my goals, but I'm more unhappy than ever. And so I spent a lot of work like hiring coaches, like therapists like all the things to figure out, why is it that the more money I made, the less happy I became. And the reason was because I was just chasing a number. And they got further and further from my why. Which is to make women of color and bipoc founders feel seen. So I made a conscious decision on this launch to add monthly workshop style training calls. Last time I did this call Ellen. It was a 60 minute call. I stayed on for three hours.
Wow. That's incredible. I mean, I'm not surprised because I've been on one of those calls before and your students, they show up I mean, they really have such great questions. I always kind of you know walk into any sort of q&a style or workshop style environment and assess like the kind of like the caliber of the conversation in happening, you know, and I feel like people who ask really high quality questions, I'm always so impressed by those people because it tells me how they think like the way their brain think and so I love that you're getting so hands on with your students. I guess a follow up question to that is now that you're implementing these monthly calls and some of them are Perhaps extending for longer than you had planned? Is there any part of this that feels unsustainable to you at the level that, you know, at the level of support you're providing, without, let's say, increasing the investment? Is the current capacity doable for you?
I think that's really a good question. And that leads me back to what I was trying to say, which is, there's always this thing like, oh, there's boundaries. And then there's like giving. And I think that in business, for some reason, we're taught that those are at odds, like somehow you cannot serve people for free, and have a sustainable business. And I think I read somewhere, Simone gray soul who's like my hero, she's like, being a good marketer is literally helping as many people as you can for free and being so good at that, that people want to buy yourself. And when I read that, that was like what she's talking about. And then I dove in more, she has a wildly successful business, and she doesn't, you know, do any kind of like discounts or, you know, promos. And I started to think about how I could apply that in my business. And I started thinking, what are some of the things that make me feel like a chest tightness, you know, like getting on those calls, like trying to convince people, which is an energy of seeking and chasing, versus, like, when I'm on those calls, Time just flies, and I just love being on those calls. And so for now, it feels like it gives me energy and so it doesn't drain me and I'm gonna keep doing that. And I actually also started to do free in person events. Whenever I'm in a city just to meet, you know, my, my members, and I always get catering from women of color bakers and winemakers. And they love it. I mean, sure, I could probably charge for it. Because I have a budget, I'm probably paying like, no less than $1,000 each time I do this, but it just makes me feel so happy. And I think after my really terrible like surgery, and then you know, the burnout. That was one of the things I wanted to do to get back to my why, and making sure that those women felt seen and connected, even if there's no like monetary return, like the cosmic universe, like the energy, I know, it's going to come back to me in one way or another.
Yeah, I I'm so encouraged, honestly, by everything, everything you're sharing. And this kind of leads right into one of the hot topics I wanted to hear your opinion on, which is, you said people don't want more content, they want community and connection and you just referenced that you are doing these in person meetups in in cities from time to time. And obviously, that's an amazing way to foster community and connection. What are some other ways that you see are working really well to add in those elements of community and connection through the experience that you're creating for your students?
Yeah, I mean, I think the business model of like courses, it's, it's dying out, I think there was a gold rush, and now people are over it. So I actually literally wrote an email to my subscribers, I was like, throw your course in the trash. Because I get so offended when people are like, not offended. But when they call my program a course or they are already skeptical because they've been burned, right? Like raise your hand, if you bought a course that you've never opened, like, I still have one that I haven't open I bought two years ago. And it's not the person's fault. It's just this is just were saturated with content. People don't want another course they don't want more content, we have so much content, what gets people stay, is the people want to feel seen, they just want to know that they're not alone in this journey, right? That you can affirm their struggles or their viewpoints, or maybe connect them with someone else on the call. So what I do now, and what I've always loved to do, because I'm I just love to connect people. And that's why you and I really see our kindred spirits, because you're the same way. But when I'm on the call, I'll be like chatting with them, like, oh, you should meet this person, she also makes a hair product or you should meet her she's also in Atlanta. So even though I don't have like a formal, like every city Facebook group, I'm constantly trying to connect them which goes to my second point of scarcity is a lot of people say, Well, you know, if you make everyone connect, and they're just gonna leave you they're gonna they're gonna leave the group. Right then don't need you anymore. And I don't actually don't find that to be true, I actually find that the more you connect people and make them feel seen, the more they have something to rally around a common value, which is being a member of your community.
Are you creating content with an expiring shelf life every 24 hours? Or are you investing your time wisely in creating long term content assets? In other words, searchable content that creates sustainable visibility for your business, and doesn't depend on algorithms or paying for ads? If you're ready to get your business in front of way more people without social media or ads, I invite you to watch a glorious free signature PR masterclass right now, it outlines her CPR cold pitching method that has helped 1000s of founders in every possible industry. get featured on top tier outlets, podcasts and stages, without any PR industry connections. GLORIA will even show you two word for word pitches using her simple CPR framework that landed features and Fast Company Conde Nast Forbes and more. As a bonus Are Watching this free on demand class, you will also take home Gloria's PR guide, go to Gloria Chao pr.com/masterclass. That's spelled je l o r i a chow, c h o u p r.com/masterclass. To watch now and claim your guide will also drop the clickable link below for you in the show notes.
Oh, yeah, so good. I have experienced this personally. In a few weeks, I'm interviewing two members of my coaching program that I retired, Mindi and Juliette, who you guys will get to meet. And they are incredible women who met through the program and through their friendships through their connection to each other, they actually both reached their first $10,000 month, which was, you know, the transformation that they had joined the program intending to want to get to. And not only that, I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg. It's, it's really about all the other amazing collaborations that they've done in pursuit of growing their businesses. And I couldn't agree more that there's so much value when you are the common denominator between connecting people. It's, it's such a value that people don't really think of as value in the traditional form of a let me give you like an exchange of information. But I think it's actually one of the best ways you can create value, especially and this is kind of a tangent, but oftentimes, when people are brand new to entrepreneurship, and they're asking, How can I create value, if you know, I don't have a whole lot to offer at the beginning. And I tell them, Look, if you can focus on finding one person in your network that you can connect to someone else that you meet, just that one action alone, can create undeniable value in ways that you have no idea how that will play out in years to come. And so I'm so glad you brought that piece up. I did also want to add one more kind of thought, to piggyback off what you said, like your your email, throw your course in the trash. I, of course, as someone who helps people create online courses, I do have a slightly differing opinion on the value of courses. But to your point, there is a difference between a DIY course and an actual mentorship program or a coaching program or an experience of some sort. And I think where people get burned by courses, is when people try to present it as one thing when it's actually something completely different. And so I think you have to be so so very intentional about how you are positioning, what you're actually creating for someone is this truly meant to be a self digested self guided tool for them to, you know, take this knowledge, take this framework and implement and get a result, or is this meant to be a community a, you know, a mentorship, whatever it is, and you have to be so clear about what you're actually offering. And then I also think the best courses that I've ever taken, the ones that truly actually did change my life, were the ones that didn't try to be everything to everyone, right, they didn't try to be like, Oh, this is your all in one marketing course, for everything you could possibly ever know about marketing your business. Instead, it was like, here's one very specific skill set or one very specific result that I'm going to teach you. And I'm going to actually use my course framework as a filter for all of the competing information out there, and try to get you on the most efficient path from point A to point B. And those type of courses are the ones that I think actually create transformation in people. So anyways, that's just kind of my, my add on thought to what you shared.
Yeah, I think specificity is so good. I mean, they say the riches are in the niches right? So people are not going to believe that one course is going to solve all their problems. So don't be afraid to I always say in my pitching training is peel away the layer of an onion, I want to get to that juicy core. You know, you don't want the whole onion because just more is better. You know, we've just we want to have that juicy core. So that's what I say. I do agree if it's a very specific thing, and they're not saying we give you support, and then you're in a Facebook group of 10,000 people just make sure that you're aligned and the level of support so people really feel like they're seeing
Yes, yes. Totally delivering on what you actually say you will do. I think that that is such a huge trust builder. Speaking of again, you getting just more connected more generous with your time with people. One of the things you did in rejection of row marketing, this most recent launch was you actually did get on sales calls, but not the ones that you were talking about before where was like the last 15 minutes before cart closing. You felt this like pressure to get someone to buy but to actually spend time with people understanding like what they needed from you. How did that go walk us through your structure for how you implemented those calls. What types of conversations were you having on those calls?
I think one thing that we're afraid to do as entrepreneurs is to a meant that we have something else that could be lacking and to be to work on. And so it took me forever Ellen to have like a feedback loop where if people didn't buy, it was like, why didn't you buy? Right? And like, actually tell me and, and that was just me closing myself off to growth, right? Because that was my ego. So after this, this launch that went really well, I actually got on the calls with a couple of people just sit through kind of like, you know, where are the gaps in the messaging or what what is going on, and these people, you know, they were not going to buy. And it was okay, because that was so much information that allowed me to understand my audience more because remember, the whole point is not to convert everyone is how can I get my messaging even more dialed in? So the hell no people can take way like 10 sets back and really get the hell yes, people in there. So in opening myself up to feedback, both in calls, emails, surveys, you know, after the you just, it's a goldmine of information. So I encourage everyone out there to put a feedback survey everywhere you can, in your program, in your emails, even do a contest, just the more information you can get, the better.
That's so smart. So you have these calls with people who didn't buy to tell you why they didn't buy. And then you're also implementing, like you said, these forms and surveys to your actual students who did by on their experience as they're going through? What are some just kind of as like a bonus question here? What are some powerful questions that you're asking on the surveys or forums that you are seeing really insightful responses from?
Well, one of the things I think it's really hard for people as entrepreneurs is when people ask for refunds, right? It's like, ouch. So it hurts, doesn't feel great, but that's actually probably the best feedback you're ever gonna get. Because it's like, what is it about this program that you want to get a refund, right, we don't ever want to admit that we have refunds, but everyone gets refunds, right? In order for me to understand where the gaps were, I really, really wanted to just basically go and call people who asked for a refund, some of them didn't want to get on the phone, you know, they're just like this, not for me. But I got so much information that allowed me to have way better process for onboarding because one of the things about this Ellen is like, we're not expert course creators. You know, I'm not like a course creator magician with like, all the nice templates, I just created this based off of what I knew. So from a UX point of view, from like, a customer process point of view, I knew I was lacking, right? Like, where does the journey start? So like having them telling me like, you know, this wasn't as clear or, you know, like, I would have preferred onboarding this way. We're like redoing the entire onboarding process, where we tell them, it's kind of a pick your adventure, where like, they get in, and they pick what industry they're in, and their goals. And then we direct them to the modules because there's so much in there, right? I mean, there's gifts guides, there's podcasts, there's product, geysers, entrepreneur features. So I think having that feedback is what allowed me to completely revamp my onboarding.
That's so valuable, I totally agree with you that, you know, in the same way that a lot of business owners may not be great salespeople may not be great marketers to begin with, right? Because their interest or their area of expertise is in something entirely different. Same thing. I liked that you pointed out that just because you're a subject matter expert. So like for you, you are obviously brilliant with public relations, that doesn't necessarily make you brilliant at user experience and courses. And so that's a really great delineation, I'm glad you pulled that piece out, and how you're actively working to improve that. And I do want to shout out by the way, for all those listening Gloria's refund rate, she was so vulnerable and generous in sharing this information. But in the February launch, it was 10%. And then October, it dropped by nearly half because of some of those, you know, changes that you implemented, I just want to congratulate you for and like the fact that you listen to that feedback, took it with grace and actually implemented and are seeing real data driven points showing that you're having success with that. That's huge. That's a lesson I think we could all take a page out of your book for
Thank you. Sometimes, you know, you talk about like the wound, right. And you want to just keep putting a bandaid on there. And we don't want to talk to people who got refunds, because it's not like a happy thing. It's like, yeah, you got a refund. So a lot of times, we just completely ignore that audience. We either take them off or you know, we put them in the closet. But by literally opening up that wound and putting disinfecting on it and like asking them, some things didn't feel great, right? Because it's like this, my course is perfect. What do you mean right now? So by doing that, and subjecting myself to criticism has really, really helped me a lot.
Yeah, it's so true. It's probably one of the hardest things we have to grapple with. Because so much of what we create feels very personal, right? It's like an expression of ourselves. So it can feel very personal when someone rejects that. But I think that's the character growth that we'll have to go through. Like you said, the final thing I wanted to touch on that I loved that you did in this particular launch, is that you sent freebies, to people who didn't join so you intentionally follow back up with these people. Tell us about That strategy, what freebies were you sending them? If they didn't join? How did you initiate that conversation? Was this like a personal DM? Was this a mass email to everybody who didn't buy? Walk us through that? Yeah,
I think even taking five sets before that is, I think we've been taught in the online world, which is trying to have like, as least amount of effort for the most amount of revenue, right? And I think that works if it's like an algorithm or a machine, but especially now, people want that personal touch. So whether it's one DM Voice Note, 30 seconds, to be like, Hey, I saw that you sign up for the webinar. Let me know if you have any questions right. Now, I don't want you staying up until like three in the morning and like burning yourself out. But the more you can show them that you're a real person, just so you can just extend that hand to be like, I'm here. And I see you that the better. So obviously, obviously, I could not get you know, on the phone with like, 1000 people registered, right. But if I was on Instagram, I might see someone being like, hey, like, I signed up for this class. And I'd be like, oh, cool, I saw that, you know, you're from here, I'm from here too, or like, I love these bags that you make. So it's just it has to come from a place that works for you. I'm not recommending everyone get on the phone with every single person with a more personal touch points a better. And what we did was even before they sign up for the webinar, in the welcome email of like, Hey, you sign up for this live launch this by the way, this is about live launch, not that not the Evergreen. So hey, I saw that you sign up for my live webinar. Just to get you started. Here are three things that I want to show you to help you. So might be a little template, it might be a five minute video or something. So you're getting value before they even get on the masterclass. So it's almost like, you know that that they know you and a little bit. And if you can't do that what I did is after the webinar finished, and the sales cycle ended, you know, obviously, why didn't you buy survey, right, getting real open and vulnerable. And for the people who did respond with with certain things. I gave tailored responses. So people were like, why, you know, I'm a nonprofit, I don't really understand if this was for me. And then I would just basically be like, Oh, if you're a nonprofit, you really should take this PR strategy or like, listen to this podcast episode, right? sort of level our podcast, because it's right there. So see what kind of freebies that you can have to give people, whether it's a podcast or a video training, that you can cut into 30 seconds, that you have, like in templated form that you can just send off to people so that way, it's not like, Oh, you didn't buy Okay, bye you're dead in my book, right? It's like, yeah, exactly. Because what we also found is people actually go through like three months before they convert, because this is not like an easy program that's like dance on Instagram, because it's like, once you actually sign up, you're gonna have to like put yourself out there. And that's scary for a lot of people. So So I realized what I'm doing really is really making people feel confident, even put themselves out there. So there's a lot of mindset work that needs to be done. So people don't buy all the time on the first try. And that's fine. So when we did our data, people usually stay on my list for like three months before, they were finally convinced. And so during that time, that is your time to be adding value. Hey, did you hear the podcast interview? Oh, by the way, you're a fashion brand. Why don't you listen to this episode where I interview the fashion editor at a law.
That's so interesting. Essentially, what you're doing is like, let's say they don't by you are preparing them for the next opportunity for when it might be a yes for them, by guiding them to the next step, whatever that looks like, right, whether you're sending them to a podcast episode, whether you're giving them a template, or just a, you know, a quick tip. I really, really love that approach. I feel like that really just shows how much you care about each person. And to your point, if your whole mission and your whole life is helping others feel seen. What better way for someone to feel seen than for you to follow up in that way and give them that next step. To encourage them in that path, whether they choose to work with you or not. Ultimately, this conversation has just been so refreshing for me, Gloria, but I'm sure for so many of our listeners to just hearing you share so openly. So vulnerably, about this whole process of how you've rejected these tactics that have been so ingrained into our industry. I wanted to wrap up this case study interview with a bonus. It's almost like a little mini case study, but like a bonus hot take from you. Because this was something you actually shared with me in DMS that I was like, oh my god, like so hard to choose which case study we're going to talk about because they're both so good. So this concept speaking of doing things, the non traditional way, you have this heartache that people do not need to be on social media to grow or market their businesses. And you in fact yourself, I think made your first $100,000 in your business without social and you did it through this mind blowing thing that I've never even thought about doing which is slack groups. So can you quickly just debrief us on what exactly does that mean? Like, what groups did you join? What were you doing in these groups? And how did that actually result in revenue for your business.
So for my audience, mostly women and founders, there's a lot of slack groups and communities like I fund women and female Founder Collective and they have slack groups where there's like, maybe 10, 30, 60,000. And even more if it's a startup group, right? I'm gonna like 10, Slack channels. And I realized that during the pandemic, you know, it was like clubhouse right. And then but people were really active on Slack. And I got connected with iPhone women first, because I heard about their Slack channel. And then I thought, huh, I just created my new Instagram account, I have all 300 followers, there's no way I can compete with other people, right? I'm not like great at social media. How can I give value but still get a lot of people like in my orbit, so I'm not doing like one to one right one to one teaching. So what I did is I actually came up with my presentation, which is now like my signature masterclass. And I said, I basically put it to them like this. I've literally like Slack, the founder, I was like, Hey, I noticed that all of your founders in the Slack channels have been asking about PR, and crowdsourcing and how they can get PR campaign going for their launch, you know, this is what I do. And I'm happy to host a free, you know, live training that can be recorded and for anyone to watch. So you're providing a value right away. So that's live, you have 60 people live, and then I give them a freebie, in the email follow up, you're creating free content for them, and then it goes into their portal. So then anyone that that accesses, it just keeps giving you that visibility, right, also SEO. So that's kind of how I started my business, which is doing these free workshops. Now, it's obviously a lot harder to come up with a coherent presentation, like how you know, the whole thing than just posting on social media. But But I feel like so often, people don't want to do the thing that's really going to move the needle, so they do a lot of other things. I'm like ADHD procrastinator. So I'm like vacuuming and trying to get a quick win by, you know, cleaning my sink, right? Because it makes me feel good. So I've definitely been there. You can tell I'm stressed when I start vacuuming like five times a day, just give myself a little. Like, yeah, I did something, right. But I'm like putting off the main thing. So I understand. It's like a daunting task, like, Oh, I got to create this presentation. But it doesn't have to be this like huge keynote Tech Talk, right? It could just be like, here's what I've learned on, you know, different slides, and different case study. And now with AI tools, Ellen, I mean, just have that have the AI tool, spit out all these slides, and then use that to position your authority. And then when they invite you on their platform, as a vetted coach, then you have credibility, you have the audience, and you're leveraging that community's to me, that's much better than spending my time on social media all day. And one day, I might get hacked, I might get banned. I don't know. It's all in the cards, but I don't own my social media.
Yeah, I love your creativity there and how you took such an unconventional approach to starting your business to starting that visibility. And I think it just speaks volumes. Again, it's just another testament to the power of leveraging other pre built communities outside of your own when you don't have an existing audience. And I think that's so encouraging for anyone who may be listening, who also finds themselves in that boat where maybe they have a really small audience on social, maybe it's not their favorite thing to do. And just being able to see another example of a successful founder of a successful entrepreneur like yourself, who has done it differently, I think is is just going to blow open their minds for what is possible and to encourage them to think outside the box. So
yeah, anyway, one more thing I want to add about the social media is like, we know that social work, right? Like Ellen, your social media is off the chain. I'm always like, how can I get my stuff to look like hers? Like your stuff is amazing. But it should not be your only thing, right? You have your long form content, your guest podcast, and you're speaking. So what I'm looking at my time, right? I'm always thinking, is this a $10? An hour task that I can delegate, like social media, which by the way, is not searchable? Or am I building a $10,000 an hour assets like guest podcasting, which is SEO? And am I speaking on a panel right? And you can use that then to create social media, but I'm never like creating content on social media just to create it. It's always from like a reposting of like, for example, this episode, right? Where I'm gonna get six or seven pieces of content. So it's all about trying to think like, How can I leverage my time? How can I create long term assets and not just okay, I'm gonna turn on my camera and hope that the algorithm gods like me today.
So smart, yes, say it again. Well, rewind again, if you're listening, Gloria, thank you so much. Where can our listeners connect with you further, and we'll also link the master class, by the way that Gloria has been referencing in this episode in the show notes for you today. So if you want to go click over and watch and learn how you can pitch yourself and get media coverage, we'll make sure to include that but where else Gloria can people connect with you?
So I am on Instagram. I don't have a ton of following you know, but it's definitely better than before I'm learning at @GloriaChaoPR. And then also I have my own podcast called Small Business PR Ellen has been on she has a fantastic fantastic episode on how to pitch for a podcast and you just hear from the Queen herself. So small business PR. Yeah, and actually If you DM me the word 'pitch' on Instagram, I will give you a little freebie. How about that?
Ooh, very generous. Okay, thanks, friend. Yes, so you heard it here. DM GLORIA The word 'pitch' to get your freebie and thank you so much again for your time today. Thank you.
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