598: Dressing Like a Leader: The Wardrobe Mistakes Holding You Back with Victoria Hohl of Klein Epstein Parker: Otter Voice Meeting Notes

598: Dressing Like a Leader: The Wardrobe Mistakes Holding You Back with Victoria Hohl of Klein Epstein Parker

Enoch Sears31min

Speaker 1

00:00

Who spoke on women is one of the most like beautiful things that can happen in women's clothing. Hello and

Rion Willard

00:07

welcome to the Business of Architecture. I am your host, Ryan Willard, and today I'm delighted to introduce a very different type of guest today, Victoria hole, who heads up the styling and international brand development at Klein Epstein Parker in Paris. Now, Victoria's expertise lies in personal branding and styling. She meticulously curates wardrobes for everyday elegance and special occasions such as weddings. I've been working with her and Julian, both of them at kp, on my own wedding outfit, which is how I've gotten to know them very well. And notably, she oversees the image styling for the head of coaches and staff for the Paris basketball team. Central to her practice is a profound commitment to ensuring her clients feel both confident and self assured in their entire encapsulated in her guiding principles, look good, feel good. So this is a slightly different topic that we might usually discuss here on Business of Architecture, but I thought it might be fun to have a look at how what we wear communicates what we are selling and plays a very integral part to our own personal branding, and just how we communicate and interact with other people. I noticed a lot within the architecture industry, there's a big difference in how architects dress. And all of it is communicating something. The question is whether it is communicating what you want and what you want your clients to be inspired with. For some clients, they are investing into the bold, creative vision of the architect. Others want something elegant. Others are running corporations and want something professional and refined and business like so is how we're dressed. Are we taking advantage of those desires of the clients and being able to communicate an assurance that they'll be able to receive that by working with us, what we're wearing is communicating something, whether we're conscious of it or not. For some of you, you might dismiss this conversation as simply not important or completely superficial, but my invitation here is to consider it as part of your branding, part of your marketing. Here at Business of Architecture, in one of our leadership programs, we have a rule that people dress like leaders, so they have to come to the classrooms like they're about to speak at the UN or in Parliament or in court. Why? Well, there's a lot of impersonal interpretation to what that actually means and what the dress code is, but it becomes a very good way of bringing your best self to the occasion. It's a way of communicating to other people that this is important, and it becomes a sign of respectfulness to others. Okay, so consider how you might dress on your wedding day, or how you dress for a new client or for an interview. You bring some energy to it. You bring something of of what you want to be communicating and how you want to be interpreted. It's true, you don't need clothing to feel great or to exude confidence, but it can help. And the question might be, why not ensure that your outer appearance is communicating in alignment with what you want to be communicating about your internal world? So when we have clients who complain about not being taken seriously on site, who are always finding them saying yes to everything, and they're dressed very casually. It's not unusual that it might be suggested, well, why not try wearing a suit? Why not dress like you mean business? Why not dress with some authority? Why not dress with the being the kind of leader that you want to be perceived as my own personal business mentor, years ago, asked me, you know, what are you selling? What do you want your clients to see? And is how you addressing part and parcel of that. So architects we all know, have common staples, like the all black modernist nowadays we'll see architects with a kind of Bohemian look. If you go around East London, certainly, or bits of Brooklyn with the French workers jacket and your camper trainers, there are sort of uniforms that get adopted by different architects and we kind of take upon others. People like Zaha or Frank Lloyd Wright had a kind of certain flamboyance, which was all part of the experience and excitement of working with them. When I was at Richard Rogers at R SHP, there was an unofficial dress code of bright block colors. You knew when the rshp team was on site, partner Mike Davis even took this to extremes, only ever dressing in red and only ever using red items from cars and to pens. Those colors, though, communicated the brand of the office. They communicated a creative approach, and when applied to smart clothing or smart casual clothing, it was very professional and it was fun. Norman Foster, I think, deserves a GQ award for his consistently on point, elegant, refined outfits. He dresses like a beautiful, classic Mercedes understated style, but with careful bits of color which communicate the architectural creativity and elegance of his practice. So my invitation is to consider how dress can be used, how you can use style and clothing as part of your personal brand and the brand of your architecture. Have fun with it and sit back, relax and enjoy Victoria Hall now a message from our sponsor, Why settle for switching between multiple design programs to complete a single project with Vectorworks architect? You don't have to simplify your workflow with a hybrid 2d and 3d modeling environment made to support your work from the pre design phase all the way through to construction documentation in a single platform. Learn more about the tool that can help you accomplish everything you need with the free seven day trial of vector works. Architect, get started here@vectorworks.net forward slash Business of Architecture. We are looking for architect developer stories for the Business of Architecture podcast. So are you an architect developer with valuable insights to share? We're always on the lookout for passionate voices in the industry to join us on the Business of Architecture podcast, if you're ready to share your journey, lessons, strategies with our global audience. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out to us to explore being a guest on our show and help inspire other architect developers on their path. We'd be interested in hearing your story, whether you're at the very beginning of your development story, or whether you have $100 million portfolio of projects already in the bag, completed. We'd like to hear from you if you're working with the developers, or that you've developed a number of small houses, or you're working at a larger scale.

Speaker 2

07:15

Victoria, Welcome to the Business of Architecture podcast. How are you?

Unknown Speaker

07:18

I'm so good. Thank you. How are you?

Speaker 2

07:20

I'm very well amazingly, speaking with you and chatting about one of my favorite things, and I know it's one of your favorite thing, which is fashion, clothing styling, and actually talking about it in the context of personal brand. So you're the first stylist that I've had on the Business of Architecture as a podcast. I think it's really an interesting thing to be talking about, particularly in the world of business, because, you know, it's a really important thing for people to be considering how it is that they're dressed. It becomes part of your own kind of identity, your marketing, how you want to communicate to the rest of the world, and certainly a professional context, it's something that can really make you stand out. I mean, I noticed a lot with architects, there's a real spectrum of how people dressed, and there's kind of the classic all black Architects like to wear, and we see that all over the place. And then there's a lot of architects who don't really wear, don't put much thought into their clothing at all. And I always find that's a little bit just waiting because it's because it's kind of, you know, they're, they're visual people, they're presenting designer ideas, yeah, and then, if you look like,

Speaker 1

08:29

and then you show up and you look like you didn't put any thought into it, it's, yeah, it's all frustrating. Yeah, exactly. So

Speaker 2

08:36

tell us a little bit about you and where we are. We're in your we're in the storefront of your clientele, Parker here, and you guys have made some clothes with me before, which has been what I'm wearing right now.

Speaker 1

08:49

Yeah, it's super fun to do that with you. You're you're super out there, and I love the colors that you picked. So thank you. It's great.

Speaker 2

08:56

But there's a little bit about about the store and how you found yourself doing whatever. And how would you describe what it yeah,

Speaker 1

09:03

um, so I'm a tailor. I would say a tailor stylist, um, how did we start? Well, we were Julian and I were in Strasbourg, and I wanted to do a custom suit, because I like that. I like kind of the masculine clothing universe, um. And so we went into several different stores, and basically every time everyone told me, You women, you you have so many boutiques, leave the suits to the men. And I didn't really like that. And so then I heard about the brand client of st Parker that was created in Los Angeles about 15 years ago. And they actually dress RuPaul. Do you know RuPaul? Cool? Yeah. Okay, so we, well, we dress RuPaul for the for the TV show. You know, every time he goes into the work room, he's wearing a suit. It's kind of extravagant. And so I told Julian, I was like, next time we're in the US, because I'm American, of course. Um. We're gonna go to Los Angeles and we're gonna go check this out, because I know that there will be no problem. They're not gonna tell me, you're a woman. Why do you want to do that? Right? Um, so we did. We walked in and, you know, first question, she's like, Okay, guys, what are you here for? And I said, Well, we want to do a suit. And she goes, Okay, who's it for? Like, that was, like, the first question, it wasn't like, oh, okay, sir. How can I help you? You know, it was in just super refreshing. And so I thought that's that is missing in France. And so we chatted quite a bit with the founders of the brand. They were, they were, no, they weren't both there that day. But anyway, we chatted, um, with Mirai, so the founder of client, obscene Parker, and she didn't have any appointments open the first day we came back the second day and and I was like, I couldn't even sleep. I was thinking about how awesome it would be to bring this brand to France, just the kind of rock and roll attitude and kind of putting a twist on traditional tailoring in the atmosphere and the attitude. Because, you know, obviously quality product and quality fabrication, so, you know, you have to think of a way to stand out and be different in in that same area. Um, so anyway, and I told her, I was like, I couldn't sleep. We have to do this. We have to we have all the contacts you need, our lawyers or accountants, things like that. So we can help you bring it. And she was like, honestly, Victoria, like, I couldn't sleep either. Would you guys like to do this? Would it be something that you're interested in? And I was like, Yeah, of course. And that's, you know, the rest is history,

Speaker 2

11:33

amazing. Okay, so you actually kind of, you saw the you saw the brand, you wouldn't have that kind of experience with them, and then you were determined to bring it back here, and here we are in the kind of center of boutique fashion world of France, of Paris. Yeah, it's a difficult business to set up in not a ways here, because Paris is obviously known for traditional tailoring and those kinds of ateliers, and there's like a real heavy kind of industry that already exists. What, what did you guys have to be cognizant of when you opened the store? And how did you kind of start positioning yourself as being something different?

Speaker 1

12:15

One thing that really, you know, we obviously, when we brought the brand to France. It was to do development, because nobody had heard of the brand here. So we basically started from scratch. And one of the things that Julian was super, he insisted a lot on that was doing collaborations and partnerships and not just waiting for one client, two clients, three clients. It was going out and looking for cool projects to do. We both were pretty adamant on that. And so, for example, like we work with Paris basketball, we dress the coaches and the staff. Another deal that we just got it super recent, was with the French version of RuPaul, right? So the season three is coming out, actually, in seven days, and so we'll see some of the KP looks during, uh, during that show, um, but I think that's kind of what was the most the most important thing was looking for cool projects. Because, you know, as I was saying before, like it's quality product. And how do you differentiate yourself in that kind of in that world? And that's what we focus on, I

Speaker 2

13:28

guess. How does the store differ from say, you know, just going into a regular boutique shop and then buying something off the rack? What's what's happening here that's slightly unique people might not be aware of, because it's, it's not tailoring in the sense that there's an atelier downstairs, and that's true, somebody's coming in there making the clothing on site, and it's not, you can't really come in and buy anything off the rack yet. So what does a little bit about process? Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1

13:56

Um, so, you know, clients come in they need whatever it is a wedding suit that's most common, especially right now, and they always come in with an idea, and then it always ends up being something completely different. But why does that happen? Because we have to get to know the person. I mean, we don't have to. We love getting to know people, working with them, seeing what their actual style is. Because a lot of times when you you know people think wedding, and they think that there's a certain way to dress and a certain way to just be, and they don't really give it much thought, honestly. And so what's interesting is chatting with them and be like, okay, beige suit, all right. But why beige suit? Oh, because I think that that would be cool, and that's what people usually wear. Oh, you have to dig a little bit deeper, and you're like, okay, but are you going to want to wear it again? Want to wear it again? Yeah. Do you wear beige? No, so you know. And then you have to go into personal style aspects. I did a wedding suit not too long ago, and it actually ended up being more of a casual jacket with a comfortable pant. You. Know, just a regular dress pant, I guess. But it's he came in and he was like, I need a suit. I'm getting married. And I was like, okay, but I know him a little. And so I was like, that's weird, because I've never seen you wear anything even slightly dressed up. So do you really want to sue? Are you going to feel like yourself? And we landed on a black casual jacket with a dress pant so, yeah, that's kind of the

Speaker 2

15:22

thing in so in the process, when somebody comes in, they you walk them through choosing of materials and fabrics and the kind of pals, which was like, for me, was one of the most exciting parts of the process. And hack just tell us a little bit about, like, how that, how people make those kind of selections, and then what happens to their choices,

Speaker 1

15:47

selection of fabric, yeah. You mean, yeah. So usually it depends on the season that they're creating, the peace bore. And then we have, you know, obviously a mix of, you know, linens and cashmere silk and wool, obviously, but I mean, the choice of fabric generally depends on what season they're creating the piece for, and then it's the sensibility to the fabric when you're actually holding it in your hands that can also, you know, help make the decision on that. And then obviously the choice of, you know, the buttons and things that can help. There's so many little details that go into the design of a suit, and sometimes people get stuck on, you know, in between two choices, and if you put the buttons next to it, or if you put the lining next to it, or if you start talking about the cut of the jacket or the pant, that helps you know with the fabric choice, and does that answer your question?

Speaker 2

16:48

So you were saying as well that you did some you've been collaborating with people, and I think we can start to talk a little bit about style philosophy, if you like or like, the importance of dressing properly for your own personal brand, for marketing. You mentioned there that you did a collaboration with the Paris basketball team, and I think that's quite interesting where, you know, because it makes sense, in a way, that teams get dressed together, but were they wearing all the same suits? Or what was the Yeah,

Speaker 1

17:18

so the everyone has the same suit. Coaches in administration, they all have the same suit. And then it depends on which league they're playing in the suit that corresponds with that. But the coaches are always all dressed the same, and the staff is always, always dressed the same. And the, you know, one of the selling points on the collaboration that we did with them was the mentality that you have when you kind of show up in like a wolf pack, right? It's intimidating for the other team. And it's a really good example, you know, in sports where, okay, the team, the players, have this mentality, and they hype themselves up before, and then you have the coaches that are more, you know, like the control kind of playing man, I don't know how to say it, like handling the players. So they're more serious, more stoic, you know. And so it helps. It really does, with the mentality when they all show up dressed the same, and they know that they look sharp because it's things that are, you know, literally made for them, the sleeve length, because they're, you know, most coaches are, you know, ex basketball players, super long arms and everything. So you have to really adapt to each morphology. And it's super important, I guess, when you're professional too.

Speaker 2

18:32

Yeah. Well, I love the fact that, you know, as a as a professional sports team, super important to be showing up as, like a unified force. And you know, to show, yeah, a kind of that you're that you're a group, that you're united, and it may, it's very interesting thinking about that in terms of, like, business, or, you know, how important it is to be, you know, to show up to a proper meeting, like, dress like you, mean business. And people make a lot of judgment about you on your first impression, of course. And I find, you know, a lot of times, certainly, in you know, it's easy to get people get more and more casual, certainly. And it's interesting because you're obviously,

Speaker 1

19:13

yeah, but I think it makes sense, yeah. I mean, more comfortable you get in your job, the more casual you get.

Speaker 2

19:18

But I think that's interesting as well, because in the US, I've always found that the dress sense, for example, is a lot more casual than it is here in in Europe, and there's a bit of a different culture around clothing, where in Europe, dressing and dressing well is not just for you. It's not just to kind of it's not just for you to feel good or to look good. It's also like a sign of respect. Or, you know, I mean, certainly around here, when everyone's got the cafes looking outside, yeah, of course, it's, you know, it's a constant. It's

Speaker 1

19:48

just, yes, it's just a fashion show every day, especially in this neighborhood, yeah,

Speaker 2

19:52

so and so. What kind of conversations do you or would you encourage people who are thinking about getting you. A bespoke suit, for example. Like, why would you get a bespoke suit? What kind of things can it do for you? How can it change? How can it change you? Why? Why is it, why is it a powerful thing to do? Like, be you personally and be your career, perhaps. So

Speaker 1

20:15

I think one of the coolest things when you first start out with that and what you know, because it takes time getting to know bespoke and what it means and realizing the option. But first thing is, you kind of have your own personal stylist, and who doesn't want that, and who doesn't want to be able to say that, you know, it's makes you feel confident, honestly, that would be the first thing, another thing that's super important for me is avoiding fast fashion, right? And this is pretty much the exact opposite of fast fashion, because you have these mills that are creating these fabrics, and it takes a really long time you have to take care of the animals, you know, you they're laws against, you know, shearing sheep when they're not alive and things like that. So it's just a conscious consciousness about what you're consuming, what you're buying, and the entire chain of where it's coming from. That's a super important point for me. But again, it takes time for people to realize, like, what exactly they are getting. And then, you know, obviously the personal side of having something that fits you perfectly.

Speaker 2

21:22

I think that's one of the most to me. That's one of the best things is like, and fix over this jacket. Of telling Julian earlier that now I've got, I've got another jacket, not the good. It made out much cheaper material. Yeah. And you put and

Unknown Speaker

21:35

you can tell the difference.

Speaker 2

21:38

Nothing fit doesn't feel the same having, like, clothing especially made for you, just feels like your armory. It's like your superhero. Pay. It's like, Yes, I get this,

Speaker 1

21:50

yeah. Do you feel like it's your superhero? Okay, sure, right. So

Speaker 2

21:55

cute, and it's just a, like, really nice thing to do. I think you know architects, it's really interesting, because a lot of architects there dealing with designing luxury houses and spoke spaces and things that have a lot of attention to detail, and if you're rocking up to clients and you're not taking advantage of being able to demonstrate that you've got a good eye for design, or a good eye for color coordination or or just the detail and even quality, exactly in quality. And I think that's really interesting. I mean, just start getting into fabrics and materials, but it becomes really, you know, communicating quality. And there's a lot of things that you can communicate about your business or how you want to be seen? Yeah,

Speaker 1

22:41

have you always dressed up for your clients? Or was that something you had to learn? Or it's gotten

Speaker 2

22:47

better over time, and it's interesting. You said it because when I used to work in an architect's office and I wasn't employed by myself, I used to dress very poorly. Okay, what do you mean like? Well, if I was in the band when I was saying music, then I dressed like I was in bands, and that was a certain kind of dress up that was fun and were cool and whatever. But in the office, I would just dress like a student and like just, you know, your fans, and kind of there was no effort and no energy. And I think that that communicated something as well to the rest of the office. I know a lot of people do that, but I remember there was one, one guy, he always used to wear, like, a blazer and a shirt, and he looked good, yeah. And he also was, like, serious, yes, communicated that he was serious. But I

Speaker 1

23:35

think you kind of have, like this, you like, assume also, and so your mentality. I mean, this is the same thing as with the first basketball team. When you see somebody coming at you, dress nicely and sharply. You want to take them seriously, yes? So,

Speaker 2

23:48

yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, I see this a lot. You know, in architecture, people, they're getting pushed around by contractors. They're getting pushed around by, you know, whatever kind of consultants or professionals, or even their own clients, and then you're like, What are you wearing as well? Look, there's a lot of other stuff at play, for sure, of course, of course, you like. You just woken up. You look like you just, you know what? Why? Why are you dressing like that? I think that's interesting as well. What do you what do you think about? As well, the importance of, like, how women dress in the workplace, and what it communicates, and the sort of, you know, there's a bit that's a much more complex question, in a way, of, like, you know, what to be communicating. And like, if you're dressing like a leader, again, I think that's quite an interesting conversation. What does a leader dress like? What does a female lead address like?

Speaker 1

24:42

I think that's a super interesting question, and it's probably like a five hour conversation that we could have, because you have the side of, well, women should be able to wear whatever they want. It's like, yes, but you also have to look at the context of the situation. You know you're not going to wear a cocktail dress to a 9am me. Eating, you know, no, it's super important for women to be conscious of that. And there's, you know, so many things online that you can look at now, how to dress, or business meeting, or a day in the office, whatever. And it just also, you know, it's your it's your personal taste, because it's true. You know what they were telling me, women, you have so many boutiques. And of course, we do. I mean, there, I think a lot of people would agree with that, that their women have more options for clothing, but it's learning how to dress for your body type. What flatters you? That's always something I'm always super adamant on. Yeah, I have refused to do certain pieces for certain clients, because it wouldn't be flattering, and I can't like tell them to wear that in good conscious, you know? And I don't know if that answers your question, but no, it does. It does. It

Speaker 2

25:50

starts to point. What is it about the kind of men's tailored look on women that you like and that work well and communicate well?

Speaker 1

25:59

Yeah, yeah. I think the men's tailored look, I think that's like the traditional way of looking at it, because, in general, women, you know, don't wear suits, but if you have, you know, a beautiful pair of pants that's tailored and it fits you just right. Because women's bodies are also so very different, with so many more curves, and, you know, different areas that you have to adapt to. And I think that bespoke on women is one of the most like beautiful things that can happen in women's clothing. You know, if you have a pant that fits you perfectly because you have wide hips, but a teeny tiny waist and you don't have, you know, the extra space around the waistband, for example, it just shows also this attention to detail and the fact that you care about how you're presenting yourself to the world, you want people to take you seriously, especially in in the business world. So yeah, it's very elegant and it's still very feminine. Yeah, that's true. It's true. That's why I love it. Like, for example, I've designed this shirt for myself, and I don't like wearing ties, so I found this little tie bar with the chain that I find super elegant, but still staying, you know, coherent with the masculine bespoke vibe. Yeah, though, yeah, very

Speaker 2

27:11

cool. I when I used to work at a architect or Richard Rodgers and neck design, and there was a guy called Mike Davis there, and he wore, he used to wear when he did the property center. They used to wear all purple. And then apparently wearing purple had a different connotation back in the 70s. Okay, about, you know, your preferences. And so he changed. So said it was all red. And from then on, he just wore red, like he wore red. That red shirt read everything red, like proper blood red, bright red, bright red, leather shoes, and, yeah, he drew with a red pen. And and then the rest of the office, they all had, like, there was something bold every there was like a dress code where everyone wear, like a bold set of colors, or you'd wear like a block you'd always wear block color. And what I liked about that was, is like, what you're talking about with the Paris basketball team was people always knew when, you know when the architects were on site, or the architects coming, because they were all dressed in kind of old, right colors. And it's just a it's just another opportunity to be able to market and get your identity across totally and communicate it. Yeah, very good. Yeah. Thank you so much, yeah, of course, for your anytime. Thank you so much for all the people present with the one. Yeah, I'm

Unknown Speaker

28:38

excited for the next season. So

Rion Willard

28:41

you're welcome, and that's a wrap. Hey.

Speaker 3

28:44

Enoch Sears here, and I have a request, since you are a listener here of the Business of Architecture podcast, Ryan and I, we love putting this podcast together. We love sharing information as much as we can glean from all the other industries that we're a part of, to bring it back to empower you as an architect and a designer. One thing that helps us in our mission is the growth of this podcast, simply because it helps other architects stand for more their value spreads the business information that we're sharing to empower architects together so architects, designers, engineers, can really step into their greatness, whatever that looks like for each individual. And so here my my simple ask is for you to join us and be part of our community by doing the following, heading over to iTunes and leaving a review of the podcast. And as an expression of our sincere thanks, we would like to give you a free CEU course that can get you one professional development unit, but more importantly, will give you a very solid and firm foundation on your journey to becoming a profitable and thriving architect. So here's the process for that. After you leave us review, send an email to. Support at businessof architecture.com let us know the username that you use to leave the review, and we will send you that free training. On the training, you'll discover what 99% of architecture firm owners wish they would have known 20 years ago, and the other 1% well, they just didn't even know that. They didn't know. Head over to iTunes and leave us a review now. Now

Rion Willard

30:26

a message from our sponsor, Why settle for switching between multiple design programs to complete a single project with Vectorworks architect? You don't have to simplify your workflow with a hybrid ly and 3d modeling environment made to support your work from the pre design phase all the way through to construction documentation in a single platform. Learn more about the tool that can help you accomplish everything you need with the free seven day trial of vector works architect, get started here@vectorworks.net forward slash Business of Architecture, the views expressed on this show by my guest do not represent those of the host and I make no representation. Promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you be unstoppable. You.

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