Trauma-Informed Care: Career Insights from Frontline Mental Health Experts

1:36AM Nov 29, 2023

Speakers:

Maureen O'Connor, PhD

Lisa Brown, PhD, ABPP

Jessica Walsh, PhD

Flora White-Cooper, PhD

Keywords:

work

trauma

psychologists

talk

ptsd

brown

veterans

cooper

experience

career

va

mentor

day

mental health

thinking

older adults

healing

psychology

technology

pau

According to the American Psychological Association, trauma is an emotional response to a terrible event like an accident, violence or natural disaster. Immediately after the event shock and denial are typical. Longer term reactions include unpredictable emotions, flashbacks, strained relationships, and even physical symptoms like headache or nausea. Other forms of trauma exist as well, as we will hear today. We cannot turn on the news or open our devices in our world today, without being confronted with images of people in our own communities, and around the world facing traumatic life changing events from the violence that occurs within our own homes, to global wars, to earth shattering climate and natural disasters. While these events can cause both short and long term psychological, emotional and physiological consequences, those interested in mental health careers can learn about the consequences of trauma, and how to work productively competently and in a supportive way with people who have experienced trauma. This requires not only an understanding of how trauma affects people, but also the cultural humility required to bring evidence based practices to bear on healing our world. As a podcast focused on mental health careers. Today we will talk about the many ways in which mental health professionals can work with those who have experienced or are in the midst of trauma. We are joined today by three clinical psychologists who are at the frontlines of clinical work, research and innovation in addressing trauma. And not only are they outstanding professionals in the field, but I'm proud to say they're all alums of Palo Alto University. So hello, and welcome to Palo Alto University's podcast, talking mental health careers. I'm Maureen O'Connor, president of Palo Alto University, psychologist and lawyer by training focusing on the intersection of law and human behavior. I've been actively involved in the American Psychological Association, and the Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues. And most importantly, for today's conversation, I have the great pleasure of working with colleagues, students and alums who are doing critically important work to advance our understanding of trauma every day. Joining us today are three amazing psychologists, Dr. Lisa Brown, a professor of psychology and the director of the trauma program at Palo Alto University, a licensed clinical psychologist psychologist who's board certified in geropsychology. Prior to coming back to Palo Alto University after graduating from here in 2002, she held faculty positions at the University of South Florida and the James A Haley Veterans Hospital in Tampa. She's the former president of the adult development and aging division of the American Psychological Association, and the founder of the disasters in older adults special interest group for the Gerontological Society of America. I'm going to let Dr. Brown tell you much more about her clinical and research focus on trauma and resilience and aging. But in her incredibly productive career, she has authored or co authored more than 175 journal articles, and book chapters and served as a co editor of very important volume called the Psychology of Terrorism. She recently co authored the trauma informed investigations reference manual, and the trauma informed care for implementation of trauma informed best practices for international criminal investigations conducted by the United Nations. And most recently, she was appointed as a voting member, the only psychologist of the National Advisory Committee on seniors and disasters for the Health and Human Services Administration. Thank you so much for being here. Dr. Brown.

Thank you for inviting me. Dr.

Jessica Walsh, a clinical psychologist at the Michael E Debakey Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Houston, Texas. And prior to that worked at Harvard's Massachusetts General Hospital for veterans the home based program, working in an intensive PTSD that's Post Traumatic Stress Disorder program at that, at that hospital. Prior to that, she worked at the San Francisco VA Health Care System for six years as part of the PTSD clinical team and couples and family program. After graduating from PAU, she was a PTSD returning veterans postdoctoral fellow at San Francisco VA. She has been an active member of VA diversity committees both at a national and local level. She's trained in numerous evidence based therapies for PTSD, including prolonged exposure, cognitive processing theory CBCT STAIR and seeking safety. Her clinical and research interests include the use of technology in therapy, moral injury, and the nexus between couples therapy and PTSD. And we'll be hearing more about that. Thank you so much Dr. Walsh for being here. Thank

you for having me.

And alphabetically. Finally, Dr. Flora White Cooper is joining us she is the founder and executive director of the Immaculate healing and Wellness Center in southern California. She has studied total bodily body healing, ethnonutrition, and ethnobotany from national and international healers. She has a unique approach to integrating Western philosophies to mental physical ailments with Eastern shamanic healing techniques. Dr. Flora provides individual sessions and specialized treatment remedies for balancing mind, body and spirit. And she provides she does lots of talks and workshops on healing cultural specific mental illness concerns, cultural consciousness, raising natural, healthy children, and all kinds of inspirational topics. And we are inspired to have you with us today. Dr. Cooper, White Cooper, that your preferred Dr. White Cooper. Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us. Okay, let's dive into this to this adventure. But you know, what I'd like to start with is, before we get too much into the details about your careers and the work that you do, overall, overall, in a deep way, our listeners tell our listeners, how what's your day job is like sort of how do what does your workday look like in the various because you're in three very different domains of this work. So let's start with you, Lisa. Thank

you. My workday is really interesting. Because I work in an academic environment, I end up having to get up very early in the morning, several days a week, because I work with international teams. One of them is in Iraq, we meet every Tuesday morning at 7:30am. Another group is in The Hague, and we meet at 7:30am as well on Wednesday morning. And so I've got international relationships where the time zones forced me to get up very, very early. But once I'm up, I end up spending some time writing, going over papers that my students are co authoring with me on a variety of different trauma related topics. And then finally, I ended up going in and usually doing some teaching, doing some work with different committees. The work that I'm doing right now on the National Advisory Committee for seniors and disasters, that involves a lot of writing and review of different types of studies that have been done and trying to form up the best recommendations for our country. So working with teams of folks all throughout the day, primarily through zoom, but now increasingly, so finally, in person as well, which is delightful. So I have the full gamut of academic work that I'm doing. And I consider myself to be an applied psychologist who does community participatory research where I work in partnership with the people that I work with.

Nice. That sounds like a very busy day. And I know your students spend get lots of your time, which is which is very, very wonderful. Dr. White Cooper, how about your day?

Yes, thank you. Um, well, my day is probably not as busy as Lisa's. Because I have a small town, I have a teenager. Um, so I have a teenager. And so I'm hands on in raising my teenager right now along with my private practice. So meaning that I, I help him in his education, so independent in school, he's joined the independent school, so I help him with his school studies. And then in the evening towards the late afternoon and evening then I go into seeing seeing clients. So throughout the day, in between schooling him, I'll check emails, I'll contact clients, I'll brush myself on literature. And I may have to leave sometimes I leave home to see clients face to face. Most of my clients are on Zoom. So I'm very fortunate that I can stay home and see them but I do have a few that are local, so sometimes throughout the week, I'll have to leave and and see them.

That sounds like that's the flexibility of what technology has has allowed and how wonderful for your, for your son that you were able to be flexible. I love that. I love hearing about that in our career. And, Dr. Walsh, how about your day?

Sure, yeah. You both are, you sound like you're both working a lot harder than I am in that I am not a morning person. And I have no children yet. So I feel like I have it. Have an easy. I so a typical day, I'll I feel very fortunate to have the position I'm in that I know I'll speak a little bit more to probably later as a technology innovations coordinator. But what I like best about it is it's really a mix of number of different things. That's a lot of administrative duties and research, but also clinical work. So say on a particular day, like one day this week, I started my morning off, you know, I don't really, like I said, I'm not a morning person. So it's a nine o'clock, I would see my first couple for conjoint cognitive behavioral therapy conjoint therapy for PTSD where I would see a veteran couple where either the veteran, one veteran is married to a civilian or dual veteran couple and get to do a really exciting protocol with them to help both improve their relationship satisfaction, but also help decrease symptoms of PTSD. Because I feel very strongly that PTSD affects not only individuals, but also spouses and children and communities and systems more broadly. And I know that's something we'll talk about a little later. So I might do that that's usually about an hour and a half, then I might I get to work with our MIRECC, which is just the VA, you know, Research Institute. So I might review a grant for a little bit that someone one of my colleagues is working on Dr. Brown was my mentor at PAU and knows that I love editing, I really enjoy that process, probably more than writing and, so get to do that. And then, you know, later that day, I really excited about being on a national task force, working with VA national folks to work on different policies to improve productivity amongst psychologists kind of across the VA. So feel very excited to be working on that. And then, you know, I might also later that day, work on a flyer for we're organizing a virtual reality demo day that's coming up in December. So I really like getting to kind of tap into my more creative side by making a flyer and preparing for that and meeting with vendors and things like that. So I'm sure I'll talk more. But that's just Yeah, I much would rather work later into the evening, then get up early. I'm

totally with you on that. Well, what I'm hearing it's it's interesting is I think, the idea that a psychologist goes into an office sits there all day long, and clients come in and then they go home is not at all what we're hearing, right. There's so many different avenues and times and approaches and things that you can do in the administrative work, the teaching work, the research work, you all talked about reading literature and staying up with the field. I think these are the kinds of things that we don't often think about necessarily when we're we're thinking about the work that psychologists would do with trauma. So thank you for for giving us an opening to kind of think more broadly about about this work. And at some point, obviously, you all became interested in psychology, which led you to get your PhDs in clinical psychology, but it's an at some point along that path. You started to focus your interest in your work on issues related to trauma. So can you say a little bit about how you found yourself on that path? And Dr. White Cooper, let's start with you on that one. Okay,

thank you. Yes, um, how I started my, the work that I'm doing now and some many, many years ago, I'll date myself, but many years ago while I was working at Patton state hospital as a clinical psychologist, neuropsychologist, and there was a client from Ethiopia. And he attended my my groups and it was a group that focused on um music to help clients through trauma. It's like music therapy. And he came to my group and he wasn't even one of my patients on my, on my floor, I noticed he was just sitting back there by himself, not speaking very much. And, you know, one day, he came to me after the group. And he just started talking to me, and he asked me if I would be interested in working with him well I'm standing in my way, but he asked me if I would be there. And I said, I said, Well, you're not on my, you're not on my floor. So I'm not sure if that will work out. And so I spoke with his, with the, with the psychologist on his floor, and he said, Hey, if you want to take another person. And thank

you so much.

So I said, Well, let me give it a try, you know, because he reached out to me. And at first, um, during our sessions, he had nothing to say. And so I was very interested, as I said, you know, either I could use my, you know, the old standard model of developing, developing rapport with him, or I could try something different. And I decided to try something different, because I felt like this was a cultural issue with him. And so I went one day, I didn't force him to talk, one day I went, and I went to Walmart, local Walmart, down the street from the hospital, and I and I got a documentary on Mandela. So I said, I'm gonna show this to him and kind of see how this turns out. And so for sure, we started looking at the documentary, we just, we couldn't look at the whole thing, because you know, only had a little bit of time with them. But I would just show him a piece of it at a time. And after we, I don't think we got quite to the middle of the documentary before, he just started opening up and telling me about how he ended up in America about missing his culture, all kinds of things just started coming out that let me know, right, then I was on to something. And I decided from that moment that I would focus more on cultural psychology, especially, you know, we're talking about trauma, and how culturally, especially from my cultural perspective, how we could relate to someone and opening up and speaking about the trauma that we go through, right, especially from my community, the Black community, if we want to call it that, or African American community. And we know all about cultural psychology, right? And how different cultures have a way of expressing themselves. And so I decided that I was going to, from that moment forward, and look more into and involve myself more into understanding cultural psychology. And reaching people from that perspective, even when we talk about global, you know, kind of, and especially because, you know, here in America, we have more and more people coming to America, right? And more and more people are coming from traumatic experiences, and how are we going to reach them? Right. And even currently, on the APA site, there is an article addressing this addressing, you know, international psychology and how we deal with trauma, you know, as psychologists and going international, yes.

And actually coming up on this very podcast, there will be an episode focused on psychology and human rights that I'm very honored to be hosting as well. So you're absolutely right about that. And I know that you did spend a number of years working in the correctional system here, and I think mostly in California, but I'm sure you you your your perspective was was shaped, you know, also by the deep trauma that many, many of the folks you're working with have had experience. So I really, really appreciate that. How about you, Dr. Walsh, what what kind of, you know, other than your meeting this fabulous faculty member here on the screen? What was it that really led you to think about trauma as a path for your for your work?

No, totally. Yeah, no, I mean, Dr. Brown is certainly the one that really deepened my passion, but in terms of getting to her, that kind of started really, I would say, even in high school, I was always really involved with Amnesty International. And and then, more importantly, really, in college. It really I was wrote my senior thesis on the Holocaust. I wrote on this small village in south eastern France that saved 5000 Jewish children during the Holocaust. And I wrote about the woman who led the rescue movement. It was herself and her pastor and herself and her husband who was a pastor and got to pour over her memoir um in French, which was, I would not say I'm fluent any longer, but I don't know if I ever really was but I fluent enough to read her letters. And what I found there was just hearing her the stories that she wrote about um well, you know, incredible trauma that both she and you know, the Jewish children that she worked with had been through, but also stories of incredible resilience. And what I realized is kind of while locked in these archives, at Swarthmore College randomly, that was where these memoirs happen to be situated, I realized that what really stood out to me was the stories that I heard kind of in those pages, the stories of people that had been through so much and, and really come out, just incredibly resilient because of that. And so I realized that that was kind of the hook that I was most interested in was hearing people's stories. So that's kind of when I pivoted from maybe becoming a historian to or human rights lawyer at one point to really wanting to be a psychologist and to focus on people's lived experiences of trauma. So that was really kind of how I became interested in it. And I won't bore you with all the details of how I got from there to PAU, but just very briefly, after grad school, I moved to London, I was there for four years and got to work at the Tavistock Center, which is kind of where, you know, psychodynamic therapy was born and where Freud was, and so was really able to work at a refugee clinic there. So again, you know, as Flora alluded to getting to really see cultural experiences of trauma, but then also got to work with British veterans at the I guess, London assessment and treatment service for veterans and really was kind of hooked on the veteran community from then on out, it kind of combined, so many of the things that I was interested in, in terms of geopolitical issues, politics, but also most importantly, trauma. And felt, I come from a working class family, I think we'll get to, you know, I have 11 uncles that were all veterans, and it just really struck a chord with me kind of, not that all veterans are working class. But just kind of that ethos of a servant heart really kind of struck a chord with me. And that's really why I came back to work at the VA because it was, I was privileged to work in the National Health Service and the UK. And the VA is really the closest alternative we have to socialized medicine in this country and feel super strongly that, you know, healthcare is a human right. And mental healthcare is a human right. And so that's kind of how my journey unfolded.

Really, I mean, I love that you both have talked about the stories that people brought, and that that is kind of what informed your, you know, your interest in in the in the work because as you said, you could approach this work in multiple careers, right, you can really get at these issues in multiple ways, but through the psychological work, and through the work that you're doing to think broadly about it. You can actually work with people as well as sort of get, you know, make systems work better for for for people too. So I love I love the story, stories that informed your both of you so far. And how about you, Dr. Brown? I mean, this, you've been doing this work for so long now. But how did it come to be?

A little bit of a different path. I too, started out at the VA, and was doing one on one neuropsychological evaluations and working in the memory disorder clinic, and was privileged to be able to get a position at University of South Florida. And I was working in a multidisciplinary department. So I had people from very different backgrounds, demographers and statisticians and different health care disciplines, and also working with our School of Public Health, which broadened my thinking, were when the hurricane struck Florida in 2004. There were four of them that hit us in 44 days, and basically impacted every single county in the entire state. And a light went on, it was like, wow, you know, this is something where I need to scale up my thinking so that I'm not just thinking about individual one on one therapy, but a way to deliver services and care to groups of people who have been adversely affected by these catastrophic events. And was really, really lucky because I was able to get on a SAMSA Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, program evaluation to look at who is using services after these hurricanes in Florida. and found out that it was really a select group of people that were using the services and that the way we marketed them. Crisis Counseling was not really hitting the mark, it was really sounding like it was psychotherapy. And in reality, it was helping people get the roofs back on their house and getting foodstuffs and moving forward with rebuilding their lives. And so I started becoming increasingly more involved with state activities in Florida and building out their mental health programming, to make sure that we could offer it at a level where it was really meeting people's needs. And from there, I ended up getting involved more with national work, because what I realized was that many of these committees, many of these policy opportunities, they have people from, again, different career paths. But there's room for psychologists to be at all of these tables, to be able to talk about mental health issues, to talk about not only individual delivery of care, but group delivery of services and care. And even when we're giving up bottles of water to people, or helping them get the roof on, there's ways that we can do it that are more beneficial to them that are healing in nature to them, that are culturally informed and sensitive to their needs. Because we have a very diverse environment in which we're working. And from working after the hurricanes, I really shifted at that point from working, working with one on one patients to working with larger groups and subgroups of the population, and working more at the policy and programmatic level. And it really, really, it's exciting when one does work, and actually sees that you're changing systems of care in real time, in ways that help the people that you're really trying to help.

That's fantastic. And I'm sure you work with people from many different parts, types of mental health careers, psychologists, social workers, mental health counselors, marriage and family therapists, psychiatrists, etc. So, as we sort of turned to think about mental health careers in this area, I mean, you've all sort of touched on it. But as we sort of think about how someone could have a mental health career that's focused on trauma. Could you maybe Dr. Brown, provide us some background since you're the you know, faculty member here, we're going to call on your faculty, faculty role here to give us some background or just some helpful framework for, for the conversation? You know, I know we've talked about their various levels of trauma levels of response. And with your kind of many years of experience thinking deeply about this just can you give us some helpful background as we as we go a little bit deeper into the mental health career piece? Thank

you for that question. I know that you alluded earlier that, you know, we can't help but when we turn the news on to be faced with all these grim stories about what's happening, both, you know, locally, and nationally and internationally. And I think it really calls to us to take action to do something to make a difference. And to that end, one of the ways to get started without a degree is to do something really simple, like contacting the American Red Cross, and getting training through them to learn psychological first aid, to be able to learn medical first aid, regular first aid. And once you have taken that type of training, then you can be dispatched to places where the need is really great within our communities, I think it's important to get out in the field and to do something where you get to get a better understanding of your own comfort level and how you feel in that moment yourself that it's like jumping into the deep end of the pool. And it's not everybody's cup of tea, you know that that there are lots of different ways to help people. But one really good way to get started is to start at the community level with a reputable organization doing volunteer work. And then from there, you've got something that you can put on your resume or your CV, where should the spirit moves you and you're inclined to do more than you can apply to an undergraduate program that focuses on this area. There's again many different venues that you just noted. And then from there, many people will go on and they'll get their degrees and graduate degree and go on and serve in a professional capacity at a different level. But I think that each each place there's there's value in each step that one takes and I've done them all I started out the very beginning as a volunteer and and I think that the best way to get started is to actually do something locally.

And love that. And I know we just had a wonderful walk for the National Alliance for the Mentally ill here in Silicon Valley. And that was they were talking about exactly about all of the psychological first aid that they train their people in the community to be able to provide. And then, of course, as you said, people can go on to, to get various degrees from everything from undergrad to Master's, to doctoral, and beyond. And I think the other thing I was thinking about is, you know, there are also various levels of trauma right in the work that you're talking about. So you it's it for some of the crisis situations. I mean, I wonder if you could give an example of, of some, I know, you've done some work in another country, for example, in a big, you know, just sort of interesting to think about the levels of trauma that that, that you experience in an actual crisis situation, just say a little bit about that, that can help us,

right. So I've been working recently working with the United Nations and a team of people, of which I'm a member of recognize that people who were doing investigations of human rights atrocities that occurred by ISIS in Iraq, that these investigators were coming from a really good place, they they really wanted to get high quality information from witnesses and people who are directly experienced these atrocities, so that when they go to the International Criminal Courts, they can really give voice to their concerns, and really make them understand what took place in that moment. What we found was that they were unintentionally doing interrogations, instead of investigations. And as a result of that, there the way sometimes there's, there's a cultural mismatch, where people don't understand the culture, they haven't taken the time to be able to check in and to have and work in partnership with people who are living in the community who have direct experience, they don't often have a good match between women, interviewing women, and it may be really difficult for women who have had sexual abuse, to be able to talk about it to anybody, let alone having, you know, a conversation with a man. So I think, again, providing training to these investigators who are keen to find a better way to get the information they needed. Because when they started to interrogate folks, as you might imagine, many of them just shut down. They couldn't talk, they wouldn't talk, because, as Flora mentioned earlier, you know, she doesn't force somebody to talk. And that is key, you know, that people will share information when they're ready. And what we found was when people used a trauma informed approach, and when they understood how their words really have power, really have impact, that you can get the information you need, without harming this person in front of you who's been harmed already. And it's been a really great turning point, because that, in turn, has built out to many other countries now that we're working collaboratively with, always in partnership with somebody who is local, who knows the culture, to make sure that we are using the right idioms that we're understanding, were understanding the differences and not making assumptions that may not hold up. So it's been a very fruitful experience. And one, again, that I think we're at the beginning of our journey, but writing about and thinking about and working with a team of people that are really dedicated.

And I love thinking about mental health professionals not you know, again, being as the educators of others who are actually interacting with, with people who've experienced trauma, right. So being sort of, you know, at that level of as a resource to those folks. Well, I'm following on that, you know, Dr. White Cooper, you you I know, you've worked for many years in the in the correction system, we've talked a little bit about it. And I'm sure in that work, you had worked with clients with who had experienced intergenerational trauma and I think that's something another, you know, sort of very powerful form of trauma that and and as well as systemic racism and sort of the ongoing consequences of those things. So how did that work inform your understanding of trauma in how it's actually experienced in people's lives?

Wow. Suppose I'll give you a good short version of it? I was

just gonna say we can we can do about five podcasts on that question. But let's at least see the show people the breadth of this incredible work that you all do.

Well, being a person, you know, a person I think that represents you know, a big population of trauma especially generationally right around the world, I can definitely, I can definitely relate to a lot of things that they have reported to me and share with me in confidence. And that's helped me to have a lot of empathy. You know, for people who I work with, and I work with people of all different kinds of cultures, not just ones that represent my own. And I never thought in my own private practice that I will be able to relate to them. And you know, especially women of other cultures, because just in my own experience, I didn't have a lot of exposure to women outside of my culture. So because I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, so you know, and then when I grew up and there wasn't a lot of diversity. So when I came to California, so a lot of diversity, and, and I really didn't understand, you know, I didn't understand the different cultures, I didn't understand how, you know, not until I got into psychology to understand how these different cultures express their intergenerational trauma. You know, not everyone is outward with it, not everyone is violent, not everyone is self deprecating, you know, they express it in different ways. For instance, you know, I have a Hispanic, you know, I had a Hispanic client, and she expressed it in different ways. So, I had to understand, you know, how typically, you know, Hispanic woman would express trauma and, you know, generational trauma, right, versus someone who is of America who, maybe African American, maybe Asian American, or, you know, so forth, how would you know, that everybody expresses it a little differently, and it was, you know, intergenerational trauma, you know, and that is very, how I dealt with it, it's more personal. So I did, so I won't say I so much, relied on CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, I'm more relied on, say, like, transpersonal psychology to help them because I felt like that they connected with right away. Right away, they connected with something inside of them that had to do with their culture, something that that they have build the foundation of who they are, and who they're, you know, who they're who their grandparents helped them to, you know, grandparents pass down their knowledge. So that was that was fun with them, from grandparents, to great grandparents, and so forth. Right? That all played into how they view themselves and in the world, and how they view their traumatic experiences. And so that really helped me to understand and it's still helping me to understand most of for most of my clients, everyone that comes to me, I says, had a traumatic experience. Why I say that? Because how can you live in this world and not? How can you live in this world and not have a traumatic experience? Unless you're just in a room all day.

Living in a bubble, living in a bubble.

So, you know, that's how I would answer that question. And I hope I did.

You really did. And what I what I really appreciate about what you're saying is it what I'm hearing you say in part is your experiences have showed you if you come at something with just one approach that you could miss what's really going on, right? And if you so you, so that sort of flexibility, cultural humility, trying to really think about the depth of what people who have experienced trauma have to have, you know, how they present and what their what's really going on is where you need to go with your work. And I really, I really think your clients are very, very lucky to have have you doing that work with them? For sure. So thank you very much for that, for that and for that work that you do. Because I don't know that that's always the experience, you know, so I really appreciate that. Well, Dr. Walsh, you mentioned this, you had 11 Uncle's, who served in three different wars, I think, for this for this country. And that clearly had a major effect on your, you know, on your path. But, you know, talk a little bit about so, you know, we've talked about natural disasters, you know, humanitarian disasters, deep intergenerational traumas, and in other kinds of trauma, talk about the work with veterans and what you've learned from that work in terms of understanding trauma and its consequences. And again, I'm sure it's not one size fits all but but in kind of giving, giving our audience a perspective on what it's like to work with and with veterans in this area. Sure

yes, you uh mentioned 11 Uncle's that's what you get when you're Irish Catholic. Oh, yeah, my dad's the youngest of nine boys and my mom was one of six. So yeah, I really just have always felt a calling to that population I, you know, personally feel that you really takes quite a self sacrificing person to serve their country in that way, you know, someone that's willing to put the needs of their nation above their own. And I just, yeah, I feel very strongly veterans have some of the best senses of humor of any any group of people I've ever met. They always keep me on their toes, they're, you know, barometer going back to something that Dr. White Cooper and Dr. Brown both spoke about is, what they've really taught me is just how much it's so important to, you know, win trust, right? Because the way that I conceptualize trauma is that fundamentally, trauma at the root of trauma is a rupture of trust, right, of trust in the world of trust in your community of trust in your institutions. And of trusting yourself. Sometimes that's the one of the most heartbreaking parts of trauma is that we learn to not trust ourselves, we don't feel at home in our bodies anymore. And what veterans have really taught me is that the antithesis of trauma is connection, right? Is reconnecting with your families, with your communities, with yourself. Right, as is that's how you restore. That's how you rebuild. Right is is that reconnecting and you know, I think you hear stories of veterans that you know, live in the woods, right and don't want to talk to anyone. And, you know, while that's certainly a stereotype, there's a reason, right that we do the best that we can to survive with the tools that we're given. And that's something I really try to instill in the veterans that I work with is, you know, you're doing the best you can, right. Like, there's a reason that you've done this, and these ways of coping may not serve you any longer. Right. And, you know, I feel again, I know that, like you said, we can attend different podcasts from some of these topics. But one of the reasons that I so enjoy doing trauma work within a conjoint couples framework, whether that be you know, with a parent and a child or romantic partners, is that again, going back to that conceptualization of connection being the antithesis to trauma, it's just so beautiful to be able to watch people deepen their understanding of what their loved ones going through, because when you know, your spouse, for instance, is kind of aloof, we can think, gosh, they're so hard hearted, or they don't love me, or, you know, a million different myriad ways we can make sense of that. But really, they're just trying to survive and sometimes often protect you from their anger, or, you know, dysregulation and things. So it's just really beautiful to watch people just come alive in themselves again, and come alive in their families. And that's something that, you know, veterans have really taught me. And, you know, just one other last thing that's specific to veterans is that so often, they can feel betrayed by their country, right? The country someone just said something to me last week about, you know, this is the country guy signed up to serve. And sometimes I feel betrayed by the politicians that I put my life on the line from, for and just being able to kind of, well, you know, and relate it to what Dr. White Cooper said, you never want to teach someone to adjust to oppression, right? You never want to teach that but to also be able to function in a society and do the best they can. And we can only as therapists do the best or as administrators as system changers, as researchers, we can only do the best that we can with the tools and the contacts that we're given. But just to help people find their purpose and live as meaningful lives as they can with the cards that they're dealt,

just sounds so rewarding that work because the the ripple effects of being able to make those sorts of changes and those reconnections can really affect whole communities, you know, with with in such a powerful way. Well, in this theme of kind of focusing on sort of populations. I really want to go back to Dr. Brown and ask a little bit about specifically since you're such an expert in working with older adults, I want to just like I don't want to I don't want to miss the opportunity to ask you about your the research you've conducted and the focus that you have on trauma and older adults, and why are you? You know, why have you been? I know, during COVID, you could say maybe a little bit, or you worked with nursing home preparation and things like that along these lines. So just if you could say a little bit about that work with older adults, and how that relates to this work, because I think it's really, again, there may be people who are interested in working with older adults and do don't don't know this path that could be available to them. Yes,

thank you for that question. The work with older adults really arose when I realized that so many of our resources are dedicated to children and adolescents. And not that they shouldn't be taken care of. That's not what I'm saying. But, you know, it's one of these things where we recognize that there is racism, we recognize that there is sexism, but one of the things that we as a society have been really slow to recognize is that there's ageism, and that you can have ageism, if you're lucky to live long enough, you will experience it you will get you will get a dose of people being ageist toward you. And that, that if you are of a certain sector of a certain race is compounded. It's it's a whole life's journey worth of experiences that can be built up. And I think that looking at people holistically, and taking into consideration the setting in which they're residing and the resources that they have available, back to the hurricanes in Florida, you know, it became really clear to me that, you know, older adults who had insurance who were affluent who were basically what snowbirds and so they would winter there and go back to Ohio or Canada or Minnesota, they were in a very different situation than somebody who was with limited resources financially, who had all their belongings in some sort of a trailer, and that they were living in a trailer home in a park. And, and that they didn't have the kinds of supports that were necessary for them to recover and to heal. And so I think that again, the combination of of lack of resources, the the combination of, of ageism, with sexism, and racism, all of these things, you know, come together to create a really noxious mix of what keeps people from healing from people from accessing services, from people from being able to get the support that they need to really move on with their their healing process.

I mean, I think what you're getting at all of you really is the complexity of trauma, right, there's so many levels that you're all talking about that people experience, and that, you know, pursuing a career in this area where you really gain that experience that gives you that perspective would seem to me very, very rewarding. And I appreciate that. I want to talk a little bit about some innovation, a kind of interesting or kind of Non non, you know, kind of in a in a more kind of innovative vein. I know Dr. White Cooper, you you sought additional training after your your, your, I hope, you know, I know solid education at PAU in terms of the foundation, but you actually then went on to look a little bit more at the spiritual and cultural dimension. And I wonder just, we don't have a lot of, I want to get Jessica also to talk about technology. So I'm kind of going to get you both to kind of touch in this area. But say a little bit about that. Because we also need to be open to innovation and new approaches in our work. Oh,

sure. Thank you. I love this is one of the good topics that I love talking about a little lighter than then others. But

another podcast, we could do another podcast.

But just in brief, um, I took Well, I don't want to say I took an interest in spirituality because I believe we all are spiritual. I just became awakened. And, and, and enlightened more to who I was. That was my, that was my quest you want when I graduated from PAU, I wanted more. I wanted more understanding about myself. And because I felt like if I can understand stand myself, then I can under help to understand somebody else. And I knew it was just more than just, you know, understanding thoughts and emotions, but what came before the thoughts and emotions like what did they come from? And so I just had some fundamental questions like that, that maybe some others may have listening to this, or thinking about psychology. And so I remember I live in San Francisco and I came across a person who was teaching about spirituality. And that just kind of really helped me to understand that where emotions and thoughts really came from and That's not religion, because we all are spiritual, you know, spirituality is not religion. So it's not about being, you know, prescribing to any type of particular spiritual discipline, it's about we are spirits and and that comes first, you know, before our emotions happen and before thoughts happen we are spirit first and and how does spirit drive or how to spirit a form thoughts. So spirit is forming into thoughts, which one is having emotions from that, and from their interactions with other other human beings, right are other living species on this planet. And so, I had to understand that I didn't understand that till after I graduated from psychology. And I'm really grateful because I felt like it came in a pure sense, and a pure original sense, right, I didn't have someone just kind of teaching it to me from a book, you know, I was taught how to experience it. And because of that, I could teach others how to experience it to really heal and heal from, from what they are experiencing, you know, here. And so that that's, that's how I beat that's how I formed my practice is because I wanted to take it another step forward, I wanted to offer something that I felt was long standing, you know, not that other things are not long standing. But I just felt like if I got to the root of who you are with extra stuff.

And so then you know it this year is American Psychological Association convention, there was quite a bit of work on indigenous healing and things along these lines. So I really appreciate that. And I think, you know, is is a is a very interesting and important work that you're doing. Totally different innovation. Thank you so much for that. Dr. White Cooper. Dr. Walsh, you are what's called a technology innovations coordinator, which is, you know, sounds like my entire, like, I just need you in my house all the time. Trying to keep up. But what you know, as you how do you how do you just, you know, again, briefly, how has the technology innovation allowed or enhanced your, the work that you're able to do it the VA with, with, with patients, and particularly with those with trauma?

Sure. Yeah, that's why I have this cosmic background. I feel like it makes me sound we could connect it to it a little bit of like Dr. White Cooper said about us all being kind of cosmic spiritual beings, or eight. But I also feel like my job title makes me sound like an astronaut. But yeah, and I know, you know, part of part of the vision of this podcast is for folks to, you know, meet who maybe are interested in careers in psychology. And part of the reason that, you know, so much technology is being developed in the mental health space is kind of a necessary answer to a severe psychologist shortage in this country, right. And so just to make that pitch, that it's a really wonderful career, you'll never be without a job. And most likely, there's a huge demand for you at the VA private practice and research across the field. So, you know, part of it is I don't want to say necessary evil, because that's the wrong word. Because technology is the you know, can be used for evil, but it can be used for so much good, but part of it is to answer that demand is that we need to multiply ourselves somehow, in order to reach the populations that need need us most. So that's kind of the rationale behind the creation of my position was how can we harness and leverage technology to meet more folks right to meet that demand? So just some more concrete, very brief examples, using virtual reality and the VA, they're, you know, doing really incredible work on using different mindfulness meditations, you know, in waiting rooms, right? When people are feeling anxious before surgeries, you know, and it's really been used across the the health system. But in terms of mental health specifically, you know, I'm really interested in developing protocols, virtual reality protocols to be used for PTSD education with couples. Right? And how amazing would it be to build empathy via technology of what it's like for someone who is experiencing PTSD and trauma, right to actually be able to put yourself to the best of your ability in someone's shoes, and that's just things that, you know, technology can allow us to do that we can't necessarily do, you know, on our own, so that there's different the VA has a whole suite of different Mobile Apps, you know, mindfulness coach PTSD Coach that, you know, do everything from letting you play meditations to uploading pictures of your dog and personalizing it and having safety plans on your phone that you can use in times of crisis. Because the reality is, we're only, you know, human beings. And we can't be with someone at two in the morning when they're having a mental health crisis. But they always have their phone. And that's for sure. So just being able to really meet people where they are and where they live. And that's something that technology can allow us to do. So those are just a few of the, you know, things we're working on also coaching people to the apps, because what we know, I went to a virtual reality conference the other day, and what we know is I think a lot of folks are worried that, you know, psychologists are going to be replaced by all this technology. But what they were saying is that, it's not psychologists that are gonna be replaced, but it's psychologists who don't know how to use technology that will be replaced. So I think that's, you know, something just like gave me a lot of food for thought.

Yeah no, I mean, we just started in, we have a master's program at Palo Alto University, and we now have a track in it for mental health and technology, because we really need to start making sure people have the foundation, they need to do the kind of work that that you're doing. So I really appreciate that. So we're almost we're getting close to the end here. So I want to, I want to shift gears and I want to get each of you to say a little bit, you know, maybe in a brief way, a little bit about the role that mentors or advisors played in in your career and did any you know, I know the connection between Dr. Walsh and Dr. Brown, but still, you know, the role that mentors play and how, in how you evolved in your in your career, I think it's just for my own interest in as much as anything, I'm just an absolute believer in mentorship. So Dr. Brown, why don't we start with you?

Well, first of all, I just want to say that Jessica, Dr. Walsh, makes it so that I am not only exceedingly proud of her. But this is why I do the work that I do. Because to to even be able to rub shoulders with her during her stint in graduate school is an honor because she's just a real deal. And just wanted to express my appreciation of her. I, for me, I had a mentor that was at the James D. Haley, I have always loved to teach, I've always been curious. So the idea of being able to think, you know, having a patient experience and then say, Gee, I wonder how this works. I wonder if we can unpack this, or I wonder if we can do this a different way. And the mentor that I had there, he had what I would describe as a hybrid career. So he had a career where it was a little bit of teaching, it was service, he was on the Institutional Review Board. He had mentoring of students and of practicum students that were coming through and interns, and he had his own program of research. And I thought, wow, you know, that's what I want, I want I want to have like this, this whole career, where I could do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And I was so fortunate because he allowed me to see the potential of being able to have it all. Not necessarily, you know, huge portions of it at any one time, but just sort of a good balanced approach. And the University of South Florida was receptive, they needed a neuropsychologist as part of their team, because somebody who could come in when they do research protocols, and who knew what assessments to order and how to interpret the results when they got them. And so it was just a really great way for me to get involved with being involved in an academic setting, which was not what I was initially thinking of doing with my career. But you know, planned happenstance, you know, keeping doors open, trying new things, not being afraid, not saying, Oh, I can't do this, because give it a shot, see what happens. Because there's so many opportunities out there. And, you know, unfortunately, is, as Dr. White Cooper alluded to, everybody will experience trauma during the course of their lifetime, whether it's a car accident, or a natural disaster or something, the death of a loved one. And I think that getting training in this area, whether it's as a volunteer or more formalized through an academic program, is really something that's valuable to do.

Thank you very much. I mean, I think what you're, what you described is is seeing a seeing the work that someone is doing is that's the kind of work I'd like to do means you need to get a broad exposure to the kinds of things that mental health professionals could be doing. So Hopefully this will help with that. Dr. White Cooper, how about you bet your your a role that a mentor or advisor played in your career? Oh,

wow, this is really interesting. I was sitting here thinking about because, you know, I would love to say that there was someone in psychology who I felt like I wanted to follow in their footsteps are felt like I really combined it confided into and, but I didn't, you know, I come from a different experience where I went inward. And I thought it was kind of like self motivation for me, you know, I was on a purpose, I was on a mission on a purpose, if I could put it to you that way. And this is not the fluff answer. This is the truthful answer. Because if you asked anyone who was at my graduation, they'll tell you that I was the last one to graduate. And I made a spiritual meaning that I had like a roll, but African colored robes that went over me that my, that My priests made for me. And then he was so dynamic that they had him speak at PAU graduation. And that was impromptu. So what what really motivated me was something deep inside of me was that passion deep inside of me, it was a burning passion that I had. And I would have to say my mentor would have been my goddess spirit. My goddess spirit was my mentor, that's the that's the, that's the energy, the entity that I went to, for guidance and for help, when I couldn't, when it was hard for me to pass those classes, those graduate class statistics and things like that, I went to my goddess spirit and and became like, you know, best friends with my goddess spirit. And you know, and so my answer is not so much from a physical person, because I didn't have that it was so much inward.

And I really appreciate that and work really hard to make sure that always you know, students have someone they can go to, but it doesn't always work. And so I think you were incredibly strong to, to find that in yourself and to do the incredible work that you that you do now. So I'm really, really grateful for that spirit of yours, getting you getting you through and bringing us your work in the world. And Dr. Walsh, you know, I know, I know, Dr. Brown was important to you, but maybe even maybe you had other mentors as well. Yeah,

just to combine Oh, my gosh, Dr. Brown that really tear up you probably saw really tears in my eyes. And, you know, just combining some things that Dr. Brown shared, and also with Dr. White Cooper shared, you know, I really have such admiration, Dr. White Cooper that you, you know, had that strength of self right, and that guiding spirit. Yeah, truly, that's incredible. And my, you know, guiding spirit, I think needed some structure and help. And, you know, I really, I really so admire that. And I think that what Dr. Brown provided as well as other mentors, but is, you know, that encouraged to find that inner spirit right for me, I needed that right, and to be able to connect with that, and to bring out that passion. Right. And Dr. Brown, really, you know, I never left a meeting with her not feeling incredibly inspired. And I think that that's something that I have been so blessed to have multiple mentors in my life, that really, you know, there was powerful, which was truly Dr. Brown, but to be able to inspire, because that's the best kind of way to motivate right is not to tell someone to do something, but you inspire them to do something, and you can be a leader, but if you don't have any followers, what are you? Right, and Dr. Brown has so many followers, but truly, that's been the common denominator with all you know, what I really, again, have been so privileged to have a number of wonderful mentors and that's been the common denominator is that they lead by example that I want to be them when I grow up, right? I don't know what point I'll be grown but at some point, but I really aspire to to be that and also would encourage folks to really find someone that you can see yourself and maybe not now but maybe a more evolved version of yourself, right because there's certain folks that I've worked for where I just don't necessarily no matter which way I bend, I just don't have those you know, and some of them are great qualities that I just don't have right but but see yourself the evolution of what you could be in someone and Dr. Brown was that for me truly in graduate school and you know someone that recognizes your strengths as well as your weaknesses but really holds up your strengths and allows you to believe in yourself and I I think that that's just, you know, such a powerful quality to find and a mentor. And I'm really grateful that I was able to find that and, and Dr. Brown. I

think that I thank you so much for that. I mean, I think that that, you know, it's important that we, that we provide the structures that that people need to, to thrive. And that should be available to, to every single student. And so that's something we work very hard on, but also just in our own lives, right, just in my own friends, friend, community and family community, serving as that mentor serving as that, as that inspiration or guide, you know, in those in those parts of your life, too, can be exceedingly rewarding, as well. All right, lightning round one, one piece of advice that you would give to someone who's thinking about a career, a mental health career focused on trauma. Go, Dr. White Cooper, you go.

Um, you know, I would say I would say have little spoken today, you know, by Dr. Brown and Dr. Walsh's. Find good people, you know, find good people that you can, you can ask questions, that people who are connected to literature, that are abreast of what's going on, not just in our nation, but in the world. Stay open to all types of possibilities of helping people, you know, because we're still growing in his field, you know, still growing, and the young ones coming in, you know, I say stay true to your heart so that you can contribute to this field and helped us feel to grow and stay current with what the world needs.

Love it. Love it never stagnant, never stagnant. Awesome. Dr. Walsh.

Sure so one of my other mentors in college, his like famous quote, which I'm sure he stole from someone that I can't remember is that 99% of life is just showing up. Right? And, and I really do believe that I think Dr. Brown mentioned the power of planned happenstance, right is go to that conference or volunteer for that activity, you just don't know who you'll meet, and just really staying open. I mean, really, most of my career path I haven't really planned, it's just kind of evolved. And you know, that's a matter of a lot of luck, right often and privilege that I happen to hold. So, you know, showing up and also finding particular people going back to the stories that we talked about, that is something that, you know, we've all spoken about is finding someone whose story you like, and then reverse engineering, and how you can kind of loosely follow that path, right that Dr. Brown taught me in grad school, like don't reinvent the wheel, right? Like, there's people have done it. So figure out how you can get there. And then aim towards that recognizing, you know, that you could follow in their footsteps to the best of your ability, but you're probably going to take a lot of side paths. And that's your journey, right? So that would be my advice. Awesome.

And Dr. Brown, final word from you.

So I think in this day and age, when your heart is aching, and you wonder if we're ever going to recover from this onslaught of horrific events that seem to be falling us, I would strongly suggest that one way to feel better about it is to take action, and to sort out what you have control over versus what you don't have control over. And when you've got control over something, it doesn't need to be something big and dramatic, you know, the beginning of a journey takes place with a single step. And so just take one step forward, you know, reach out to somebody and let them know that they matter to you strengthen your own social support circles, take part in like the walk that we just had with NAMI. I mean, take part in community events, take part in in trainings and opportunities and don't shut yourself down because you're distraught or unhappy, be part of the solution.

Very good advice for life. Nevermind for a mental health career. So thank you so much. So we've had a great conversation today about trauma from different perspectives. We could, as we said throughout could have had multiple episodes to really cover the this amazing content and to give it it's true, it's true, do but what I've learned, I think, is that psychologists, counselors, social workers, others with interests in mental health can work directly in the field of trauma and some of the ways that you all have I have done but also that anyone interested in the in working in mental health really needs to bring an understanding of trauma to that work. And so whether this is your primary focus or, or even in other areas this it's very, very important to understand the complexity of what we heard about today in terms of the trauma work that these amazing psychologists do. So I want to thank our fantastic guests today, Dr. Lisa Brown, Dr. Jessica Walsh, and Dr. Flora white Cooper. I'm grateful for the work that you do, and the time that you've taken to talk with with me and with our audience today. I'm Maureen O'Connor, president of Palo Alto University, and please check the podcast website for information and resources relevant to trauma, and make sure and listen to the other episodes of talking mental health careers. Thank you all so much. Thank you, pal.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you again for listening. I hope you join us for the next episode. We're Dr. Erica Cameron and we'll discuss sports psychology with experts in the field.