So the bloody shawl was taken allegedly from the scene of the crime by one of the cops who gives it to his wife as like good news, baby. This is a bloody shawl from a dead hooker. I know how much you love this. Look at that Christmas ties are really gonna spark history.
I like to follow me down the rabbit hole history. I like to
know. Hello, and welcome to Hilfe history I'd like to fuck with Dawn Brodey. I'm Dawn Brodey. And Hills is now part of the den. That's the deluxe edition network. It's a community of very cool podcasts that cover a variety of subjects, from movies to whiskey from true crime to pop culture. Find out more by clicking on the link in our show description, or by going to deluxe edition network.com. But right now, it's the hill thing of the notorious serial killer Jack the Ripper. Now, here's all you need to know going in. Jack the Ripper is the pseudonym given to the unknown killer of several women in the London slum of Whitechapel in 1888. Now there are at least five victims, all women all killed within about one mile and three months of each other. And as abruptly as they started, the murders suddenly stop, and the trail goes ice cold. And since then, there have been hundreds of suspects who run the gamut from White Chapel lunatics to famous painters all the way to the royal family. I know right? And with me on this gruesome journey is actor and improviser Peter Vogt. He's done everything from Disney Channel to American Horror Story to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. It's a bloody good time. Let's get started. I'm so glad I'm glad to have him in my house. Because Peter Peter vote is not just my friend, but he is my sometimes husband. Yeah. My sometimes neighbor.
Yeah. And sometimes I'm your husband when you don't know it. Interesting. Now that I know where you live again. Sometimes your husband's husband,
wouldn't that be a thrill? He is so handsome, isn't he? He's so dreamy Jack the RIP Oh, girl. See, and this is wonderful. This all comes full circle because Peter when he is my sometimes husband is at Universal Studios, Hollywood, the entertainment capital of LA and my daughter and husband have come and seen us on the street. So we open the window and lean out and these outlandish New York cassava you know, as always, we are this is my daughter. I say to my daughter who understands we've prepared her for this moment. Oh, look at this cute little girl. Can I introduce you to my husband isn't him and she's yelling. That's not your husband. She knows that. She knows that's who when she turns around. What's going on? Who is this guy?
I can't believe your child is five. Gonna be five. She's gonna be five in July because she used to perform with us in the window when you were pregnant.
I would keep the bump under the windowsill because I do too. Who doesn't have to put my baby. He got to have your bumper under the windowsill once in a while. I do have more of your credits. You remind me and Pete have checked us out. Okay, so theme parks we talked about you I tell you what. Not true. Okay. You can also like dang, that was a favorite or boo don't care for Oh, good. Mad TV. SO
MAD TV. My brother was the regular and I did a couple of episodes.
Your brother is a twin. So there it's not just the vote. I'm posing after I say good for you. And it's very hard to tell. I've never seen them in the room together. But I hear it's untrue. It's ridiculous. The Princess Diaries to Reno 911 Yep, Arrested Development. And that was with
all of that was Princess Diaries was with my brother, Reno 911 was a revisit to a character he had done paintball character, which was ridiculous. Hilarious.
Hannah Montana. American Horror Story. Really? Yeah. Uh huh. Parks and Rec. Oh, that was very fun. And then I don't know to what capacity I can say that. So I'm going to use coded language you were worked for the mouse on the cruise line as the man in the big red suit.
Yes, I was, as we say, friend of Santa, you were a friend
of Santa Claus on the Disney Cruise Line. And that was just recently was that the best? Right? It sounds like I imagine that being Santa has to be as exciting for the individual playing Santa as it is for the people who are sort of sparked by that
it isn't it isn't it's that's a great thing. point, it's really fun to do. Because the kids can be amazing to see a kid's face light up and stuff, the parents as in anything? Well, because they're like my child is most important. And then people would come up with a family of like, six. So we get a picture of that six kids, then each one child, and then just the boys, just the girls now with mom and dad now, which is dad now it's just mom, and then all sudden, the group behind them has been waiting. Like there was one family that took 20 minutes to take family pictures. Oh, come on. And they're just throwing children around like the kids want to talk to Santa. Sure. They don't care about the picture. They're like, Are you kidding?
I get to tell him what exactly.
And instead the parents are just shoving kids here and there. So to me, parents out there. So you know, you know the deal. Why would you tell a kid to
target Santa his beard or don't tug on?
But the kids were awesome. Of course. It's fun, because you're like, oh, that's the popular toy now. To me, like,
sure. You know,
I don't have children. So I don't know what's going on in the world. So I learned Yeah. This is what kids Beatrice asked
Santa for Gabby cats dollhouse. And guess what? You fucking delivered?
Well, you know, what we do?
You were telling me at work. You were like, Don, I like your show. I listen to the episode think it's great. And I have an idea. And I love it when guests and potential guests want to fuck something specific. You were very adamant. Jack the Ripper?
I mean, come on.
I will. I have I will. Again, you have to jack the ripper is a great suggestion. I jumped in with both feet. Can you tell me before we get into the history? Why and what it was about Jack the Ripper that was so intriguing to you.
I'm not like an anglophile in the sense of like, I live in breathe for England. But when I did finally get to go to stay in London. I stayed in Whitechapel. Oh, interesting was so fascinated that I was staying in the most infamous place in London other than the castles.
Orion. If you can't go to the very top, I say go to that very, but if
you can't go to the Royals go against them. So I've always been fascinated by I want to say the legend. Yeah, Jack the Ripper. Yeah, but just the fascination of it's one of the few things like that Black Dahlia, like it's never been solved. There's tons of suspects. And there's tons of information and historical information and the craziness of the times. And I find that fascinating
is so fascinating. Before I go into like the sources that brought me the information, I want to give a note about the sources that you probably because you've done some research too, you probably know this from the get go. You have to be so careful when you're researching this history about the word truth. There's lots of information as you said, tons of information books and books and books and documentaries. As far as the eye can see, there are no shortage of information. When it comes to getting to the truth about Jack the Ripper here are going to be the limitations on you and me and people with PhDs and people who live in Whitechapel. And everybody's got the same sort of boundaries around the truth. One is, of course, it's 135 years ago, almost as old as me, Peter,
and I've known Jack the Ripper,
you guys. It could be you you could you are in my list of suspects, you don't know. And if you ever watch that show 48 You know, you got even in 2023 you got 48 hours to fucking figure it out. And in addition to just it was so long ago 135 years is also without our not always perfect but helpful. DNA fingerprint surveillance camera, all the things that we lean on now. Yes, we
are. What they were able to do with what they had at the time is also fascinating it is
it is also super fascinating. And also further complicated because even our modern technology applied to something from 135 years ago leaves a lot of slips between that cup and outlet, right? So that's far away. The other problem is the Blitz in 1941 1942 there was a little World War Two. And among the other atrocities was the Blitz which was extensive bombing of the City of London by the Germans and among other things, documents and evidence on the Jack the Ripper case were destroyed and devastated forever. Yeah, blown up. And then your third problem with the quote unquote truth is that there are endless motivations for people to make stuff up. Find something new like because you and me and we're so interested because Jack the Ripper is this have black, sweeping hole of like fascination that there's a lot of money to be made. There's a lot of fame to be gained by individuals who can find new evidence, come up with a new theory propose something that can put them in the spotlight. So that being said, here were the sources that I went to this book Holy shit, you're welcome. I'm handing my friend Peter this book. It's one of those that like as historians are like, ooh, it's epic is a Bible book. It is. It is the complete history of Jack the Ripper by author Philip Sugden. It is it was written originally in the 1970s. And it's updated every 1020 years with like the new evidence and the new theories. And it dispels a lot of rumor and speculation and it's fantastic. watched a ton of documentaries girl and let me tell you this, for those of you who love fucking history, but you don't so much love, like reading through getting into the movie from hell 2001 starring Johnny Depp and Heather Graham, it was based on the graphic novel. The historian and me has to tell you, it's bullshit history. Sure. Everything from the relationships to the descriptions of each character, but what it really does is set a beautifully vivid scene of the time of the time. Yeah, like if you just sort of want to take a walk through the poetry of the history and come to me for the facts or go to the book for the facts. That movie from hellsten Great movie either, by the way, I got like halfway through it and was like, there's so many pounds, it was like, but it looks very cool. Given all of the sources that we have, here is my plan for fucking Jack the Ripper. Okay, we're gonna I'm gonna give a little snapshot of that city of Whitechapel. 1888. Because I feel like as we said, It's so unique, so specific, and truly like as much a character in this story as Jack the Ripper is it's like New York, in Sex in the City. Like, you can't just set it somewhere else and tell the Civic
area. Exactly. That's the thing about it. Like, that's what I found so fascinating. When I went and stayed in London, I thought I was going to this dark, horrible area and it was lovely.
Well now to be fair, the White Chapel of 1888 has been practically bulldoze. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. So there are a couple of as a matter of fact, when you go to our Instagram or if you look at the description, show notes of this episode, I have linked a few of my favorite documentaries because there are hundreds one of some of my favorites. What they do is real cool. Three D re imagining of Whitechapel in 1888. So they go with the cameras to White Chapel now. And they're basically like, those buildings are gone. It's like this. Here's how narrow and they show like if you put your arms from the side to side and walked here in 1888 you would be able to touch so that is I love that stuff. That's
super Yeah, you get off the train or the tube. Oh, and you come up and like you're hit with 25 Different Jack the Ripper tours. Oh, god mean. Yeah, it's just the thing. Yeah. In that area.
Yeah. And why not? And there's a tavern and who wouldn't want to drink there? So we're gonna talk about like that time and place right there. Then I'm going to go through the canonical five who are the canonical canonical, which is because there's so much unknown about this and murder Jack Roper didn't invent murder and White Chapel there are some victims that like some people believe rejected robber victims, and some don't but there's five that like virtually everybody agrees these five women were definitely killed by the same person and this person had a very specific mo then my favorite suspects and why they are ya Oh, I can't wait because Peter is interested in this stuff and has done his own research. Like you do but let me tell you this. You grow up jumping gras. It's no fun it's not fucking if there's not you know, a partner, so please feel free. Me you and cheer Sure. It's 1888 White Chapel. It is Victorian London, and there's fog is rising. In Victorian England is defined it depends on how you're defining it technically. It's the reign of Queen Victoria which goes from 1837 to 1901 that 63 years but some people define you know, if you're talking about fashion or Yeah, you know, it kind of web but technically this is it so we're sick of it has been for a while and it's good and what one of the things one of the hallmarks of the Victorian era is that generally England's fuck em booming girl right Victoria's a very successful queen, the England is as big as that empire ever gets. They have recently taken new areas of Africa and India because they're doing they're colonizing stuff that we hate so much, but they are doing it so good. They've gotten huge. They got new territories, the population of England has doubled. The population of Wales has doubled. We got us a baby boom, because there's money and there's expansion, Ireland not doing as well Ireland's very poor. And one of the other hallmarks of this time is that England has started to get other European allies against Russia, and Czarist Russia at the time. And among the things that the Tsar and that Russia is doing that is pissing off the rest of Europe is they are persecuting the Jews heavily. And a lot of them Jews are coming to England and White Chapel is also bringing the lowest class the poorest English people. Your poorest immigrants are all living in this particular neighborhood of White Chapel more than comparing White Chapel to London, or even White Temple being like how does White Chapel relate to today is Skid Row. Yeah.
It's like the poorest of the poor. In that successful city,
the poorest of the poor in the richest city on Earth, that huge income disparity and a lot of the people who are living in Whitechapel in addition to being just poor and immigrants, they're mentally ill. They are addicted to drugs, they are committing a litany of various crimes to live. And just to give you a perspective of how poor were they there were, give or take 80,000 people residing in White Chapel, okay. Of those 80,080 500 of them, Peter per night, are looking for lodging in one of the DAS houses, they're called lodging houses. They were you pay for a night for one bed, if you're if you can afford a bed, you could pay less and sit shoulder to shoulder next to people and they tie a rope around your chest that you could lean forward on. So like Spirit Airlines wishes they had this kind of luxury, you know,
that's what they were based on. Spirit Airlines
was like, Oh, how much do they get a night for that much is that rope? People seemed pretty grateful to have them, didn't they? And if you couldn't afford that, then you were literally out on the street. And so that's like, just over 10% of the population has no housing or no stable housing. They're going they're earning the money during the day to pay for a bed at night. Children born in Whitechapel. 55% of children born there were died before they were five years old. There were 80,000 people and 62 brothels. My hometown of Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin had about 50,000 people and no brothels, really, strip club. I'm not saying that people weren't dishing out money for sex. But there was no place that you could
go come on over to Mama's like,
a disproportionate it was
an industry. Their escape was to these drug dens these brothels and why Chapel was basically the hub.
Yeah, for all of that. Totally. And you simultaneously you went there when you were absolutely desperate, and had nothing. And you went there when you were looking for someone,
you were rich. And you went there because you knew people will do things because they're so poor.
Yeah, that's exactly right. But that being said, this is why this is fascinating, and why I really want to do to sort of establish with me like how nasty Whitechapel is right? Because even given that over half these kids dying, we've got starvation. We've got rampant prostitution, you know, there's violence and there's murder all the time. So when the quote unquote White Chapel murderers start, we know they are significant in the psyche of the people just because they mentioned them and are talking about them at all. Because immediately when the first Whitechapel murder happens, people sort of lift their head like this is different. This is different. It's even like again, in Skid Row, we know people die, people overdose, people get into fights and kill each other, we kind of understand that. But if all of a sudden they just started finding eviscerated bodies with no motivation, it's there is a manner of death that shocks and makes you feel like this is something new, something special, and this is what this was. So the first quote unquote White Chapel murder long before we have the term Jack the Ripper takes place on April 3 1888. A woman named Emma Smith stumbles home to her lodging house, whatever it was her bed that night, and tells the people there. Oh my god, I got attacked by three guys. She was stabbed in the vagina. She was horribly brutalized, she was cut. She's taken to the hospital where she dies. But she was able to say three guys jumped me. And she describes them a little bit and people were like, oh my god, this is a shocking murder. Okay. Four months later, August of 1888. Early morning hours in White Chapel, guys on his way to work. He's walking down The stairs of his building. And on one of the landings is the body of a woman who has been stabbed Peter 39 times in her abdomen and in her vagina. She's obviously dead, he doesn't her skirts and stuff have been pulled down. So he doesn't know. But he's like, Oh my God, you know, and he runs and he gets somebody. And this is when people start to get like, What the fuck is this? Again? Two drunks get into a fight. Someone gets robbed, someone gets raped, we get we it's awful. You will
get shot. People get murdered, but not chopped up this
way. No one and you want to fuck this woman pay her if you want to.
I mean, we're not saying to go and do this. I understand what. Thank you. I should clarify. I don't know what comes with the show.
What I'm saying is that as they're trying to suss out a motivation, right, it appears pretty quickly. You like killing people? Yeah. Because if you wanted anything from her, it was yours. Right? And if you wanted to kill her, you could have killed her with five stab wounds.
Yeah, there's a lot of anger in this.
The first Peter of our canonical five I love. Do you think we should start a band called canonical five? We'd have to find three other.
I was gonna say let's call it the canonical five. But there's only four people in the band. Because the fifth member is the audience.
Oh my god, do you want to who wants to get Canonico? With Oh, yes. So here's the first one that again, virtually everybody agrees. This is the start of an MO That is associated with an individual killer. August 31 1888. At 340. In the morning, a guy named Robert Paul is walking to work 340 In the fucking morning, I'm gonna say that again, walking to work down bucks row, which is an area in White Chapel. I don't know what it looks like right now. But at the time, it was a very, very long, very, very narrow alleyway that had just one, you know, one way in one and one and the other. There's doorways along the way. But there's no like inner out necessarily access along the way that isn't terribly narrow and winding and ultimately goes to a dead end. Right. So Robert Paul's walking and he sees coming out of a doorway towards him, this man who then stops and looks down and then waves him over. Robert Paul is like, Come here, come here. There's a woman down here. Come look at this one. And he's like, what? And they walk over and this woman is dead. They can't see the extent of her injuries. It's still kind of dark. But she's her hands are cold this kind of a cold morning. And Robert Paul says we should move pick her up and get her and and Charles crossed. The other guy said no. It's Charles cross. Yeah. Charles Cross says no, no, don't pick her up. So then they're like, well, we should go get a police, I think yeah. And they're like, yeah, and they're both just like, yep, for sure. But I am also going to work and I'm gonna get me late. And so what we'll do is we'll continue on our way to work. And when we see a cop will tell him, but we're not going to stop going to work agree. And
also the police presence in that area at that time was not huge. It actually is
fairly consistent, which is one of the things that makes this so mysterious, because the cops and especially as the murders keep happening, they are just doing circles around this tiny neighborhood. In fact, someone was like 15 minutes before I come around again, so they could time when a murder happened because they were
just scared of them. It wasn't like they were because they weren't people that cared about protecting
exactly, but they were people they worried about controlling the police that they inform goes back to where the body is. And to your point, how many cops were there. There's a cop right next to her. When he gets there. There's another cop already there. And he's like I found a woman and he's like, yeah, do just said there was a woman here. And they realized then the two cops at that point, she has been slashed across the throat twice real deep like down to her vertebrae. Once they left her skirts and see that she has been gutted that it's not just that she's been stabbed in the abdomen. She's been slashed down the middle. And it is one of the most brutal things that any of them have seen and stabbed in the vagina. It's terrible. Then they determine who she is. Her name is Maryanne Nichols. But everyone calls her Polly. She's a 43 year old alcoholic prostitute with nowhere to stay. In fact, that very night, she had tried to get into this Das house this lodging house, she didn't have the money for even the rope seat. And they turned her out and she kind of said, I'm going to I'll be back. I'll go get my das money and I'll be back. And that, you know, in their interviews was, you know, the last that they saw ever now at this point, another important character arrives in our story. Okay, the media. Will we had newspapers long before 1888 Oh, yeah. Right. And we had kind of media circuses before 1880 What is really new out white tribal at this time is literacy among the lower classes is really high. Because earlier in the century, they had imposed a mandatory education requirement for children that resembles something like what we have today. But it is basically we don't get these slots to read. Those kids are now adult. So even if they're poor, they can pretty much all read. I did not know. And this pertains to them. And it's selling newspapers. And there is an antagonism, which still exists between the media and the police, which is the police trying not to get any information out, right? The media is trying to get as much as they can to the point where maybe they fabricate, maybe they enhance, maybe they're bribing, maybe they're whatever, and there's constant suspicion from one side or the other. And there is just this desperate, desperate want for more information, which is selling tons. And some people are doing it because like you and I like true crime junkies. Like what happened? And some people are consuming this news because they fucking live in Whitechapel. Okay, and like, what does he look like? Where is he going? How do I you know, survive that?
Yeah, but also that's the entertainment of the time is these papers, you know, the penny pages? Like that's where you got Sweeney Todd from and stuff like that. Yes. It's a story like it's this dark McCobb mystery.
Totally. And it's was Jack the Ripper, the first killer of this kind? Or was this the first story of this kind that could be consumed in this way? And that that those three things together because you can be like, Yes, I mean, these folks live through the Middle Ages like they are unfamiliar with like slashy gory nastiness. But this madman individual unmotivated, simply wants to kill has a thirst for blood isn't doing it for God or for country or for revenge or for any of the reasons we sort of understand. And that we get to read about it and think about it all the time. But yeah, those that was like the combination of stuff that is this kindling, one week after Polly is found, a guy is going out to the outdoor toilet in the backyard of his nephew is lodging house. And when he comes out of the John, he sees lying against the fence on her back the body of a woman. And he Oh my god, right, alert to the police. And they come and this individual is Annie Chapman. She's 47 years old. She has her throat slashed twice, just like Polly den. Only it's escalated, she is her skirts are up, she's been gutted, her uterus and bladder are missing. They are nowhere to be found. Her stomach and a lump of flesh have been thrown over her left shoulder, her small intestine and another huge portion of her flesh has been thrown over her right shoulder. A bunch of her stuff is like kind of neatly arranged next to her. And she's got these two like V slits on her cheeks like and part of her ear has been cut off. So again, all the things that we've already seen and observed and felt from this. You don't have to be a criminologist to be like, the book, right? They start looking all over for clues and stuff. And one of the things they find Peter is a clean Leather Apron. Okay, so now I told you this media, everybody says oh my god, and everything means something. And the leather apron and immediately in the press and the gossip in the whatever, they start calling the killer, the leather and the leather apron. And this leather apron is clean. What was he trying to say with the clean out the Jewish population in White Chapel had several jobs including butchers and stuff where they would wear leather aprons. So this also starts to feed one of the first flames of anti semitism around the White Chapel murders which is this killer is probably one of those new Jews right that were still there butchers there. But then they were cutting Exactly. And as this is going on, and they're starting to like people are starting to like get even nastier than they already are to their Jewish neighbors. Everyone's like everybody, hang on, guys. We know this clean Leather Apron belongs to a guy who lives in this building, who hung out to dry because it's clean. And it blew off the line and landed in his yard. It's just a clean Leather Apron next to it dead body. Sorry, everybody doesn't actually mean anything. But this is already starting to accept that. Like, you know, there's a Jewish guy that everybody calls Leather Apron, because he wears his leather apron everywhere. And we have been talking about leather aprons, which means that must he's the they arrest him Peter. Yep, his name is John Pizer. He is arrested. He is in jail for a minute but the good news is even with murders and tons of anti semitism and all these things. Not only is he released he's not trying urged he is actually able to successfully sue one of the newspapers and get a little bit of retribution for the fact that you know can't just call me leather apron and you know so he he got a little bit of justice and all of a sudden a letter arrives at the Central News Agency and this letter was written even the envelope everything was written in red ink and it's known as the Dear Boss letter because it that's how it starts it's addressed to Dear Boss and what I'm going to do now is I'm going to pass this note over to my friend Peter and Peter is going to read us in his finest white chap Alaska accent the letter the Dear Dear Boss letter
it's what we want to do is offend everybody all right. Dear Boss, I keep on hearing the police have caught me now do
a Cockney Yeah He even writes in like he'll he writes in like a little tick Come on, dear boss. There we go.
I kept on hearing that police have caught me. But they won't fix me just yet. I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about being on the right track. A joke about leather apron gave me real fits. I'm on down and whores and I shan't quit ripping them till I do get buckled ran work the last job was I gave the lady no time to squeal how can they catch me now? I love my work and want to start again. You will soon hear me when my funny little games I save some of the proper red stuff in the ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with but it won't sit like glue and I can't use it. Red ink is fit enough I hope literally wrote hahaha literally wrote haha the next job I shall do I shall clip the ladies ears off and send the police officers just for jolly wouldn't you keep this letter back till I do a bit more work and then give it out straight my knife so nice and sharp. I want to get to work right away if I get a chance. Good luck. Yours Truly Jack the Ripper again literally wrote a
pretty good letter right and guess who's got a name Jackie rip so there are at least two bodies before we call this a Jack the Ripper killing there the Whitechapel murders until this letter arrives. It is skipped buki threatening. Scary you read it beautifully. You've got the job.
Or you haven't even prep that cold rain.
Um, and it was it stood out from any of the other kinds of potential letters because it talks about specifics the cutting the ears I'm gonna hold
we're gonna get to squeal like that stuff. Yeah,
and 24 hours later 1am On September 30 A man's pulling a horse drawn wagon down in narrow White Chapel Road and it's still dark and his horse sort of move like won't go okay, I'll do it again. Oh, good to get to get up. No. That's exactly what happened to the point where the Dude get off the wagons like what in and sees something on the ground. It is of course the body of a woman now this woman has had her throat slashed deeply twice down to the vertebrae. This is why she's in the canonical five. But that's it. She's still bleeding it like to the point where you can see what happened. It just happened right? Police are called We are now on it. Okay, we know something's fucked up. The police come there right away they see Yeah. Oh my gosh, she's gonna slash just like the other one. Oh, we're going to do and they start circling the neighborhood and going door to door and talking to witnesses. And then all of a sudden Didi 45 minutes later Peter. Another woman is found and she so much more than just her throat cut twice. Deep down to the vertebrae. Sure intestines are over her right shoulder. Her nose has been cut off her cheeks are slashed her left kidney is missing. She has been gutted and brutalized same same as the others her as they like fuck i fog and they start running around and trying to find evidence and talk to people who've seen it. And they find her apron covered and blood kind of thrown in the street and not far from it like on the wall above the apron. Is graffiti that says the Jews are the ones who won't be blamed for nothing? Oh, my English majors out there just got a migraine, because this is terrible grammar.
So double, triple negative with a macchiato twist.
Like the Jews are the ones who will not be blamed for nothing. So then you're like, Well, does that mean like the Jews? The ones who did it? Or do you mean like the Jews of the Jews? They didn't do it. Generally, though, graffiti that has the word Jews in it is not like leave the Jews alone. Hey, everybody, customarily, that's
not some graffiti to be positive. Yeah.
This is what happens next, Peter, the police are like fuck, because there's no knowing that these two things are connected. There's anti semitic graffiti on a wall. This is all over the place, and it's negative, bloody ape, and they don't know what to do. So they wash the graffiti off before anyone can take a picture of it, and try really hard to stop anyone from even talking about it. It's like not great investigating stuff. But they were truly worried about the people rioting because they didn't think. And they were really worried about the police or the public rioting against their Jewish neighbors. And they were in addition to stopping the murders. They were trying really hard to not let this powder keg explode. The victim Her name is Catherine Eddowes. So sad. She was 46 same as the others poor unhoused. Trump prostituting herself in Whitechapel to just get a bed for the night. She had been arrested for drunkenness earlier in the day and had sat in the drunk tank until she sobered up. They asked her what's your name? She said nothing. When they deemed her to be sober enough to leave, they just turn around into the street and she says bye, like thanks and they see her turn left. That was the last like, you know, persons are. One of the other witnesses said they saw her with a man not long before the murder a man who had a mustache but if you look at any picture of London in 1888, they all had mustache. Like it's like a guy who was wearing a t shirt and shoes. Elizabeth stride was killed at 1am Catherine Eddowes is killed at 1:45am The next day they get this letter I read another Central News Agency.
I did not prepare for this. I
know it's so good.
All right. I was not calling dear old boss when I gave you the tip. You'll hear about saucy Jackie's work tomorrow double event this time. Number one squealed a bit but couldn't finish a straight off. had time to get ears off for police. Thanks for keeping the last letter back till I got to work again. Jack the Ripper. This time he did not write ha ha
ha No. No laughter Oh. And this one is proud of what he's very proud. And it's so like, now this is one of the things this is where your Ripper ologists and yes, that's what they call themselves. The Ripper.
Five and the Ripper ologists. Now we have a show
now we got it. They they said the handwriting was similar. They say this is from the same guy. And this person must be the perpetrator because they know about the double event. They say the first woman was slashed but he couldn't get to her which was exactly I mean he's naming all of these things
before it's been put out anywhere. It's literally 24 hours, literally
24 hours. So it hasn't been printed yet. Right? Other Ripper ologists are like 24 hours girl is plenty of time shirts telephone just a mouthful, just talking about it totally sure. In fact, it is linked to the suspicion that a lot of people have that the true writer of these letters was a member of the press, they arrived at the Central News Agency. They're so dramatic, they're written in red, and they give this killer this incredible name. And then this must have been something to sort of keep interest and keep people reading and there hadn't been a murder in a minute and Bubba. So that as many reasons as you have to believe that this is the truth. There are really viable reasons to think that maybe that letter that you just read arrived October 1, this next final letter that you're going to read, arrive two weeks later on October 16. This letter includes, by the way, a bloody human kidney. It is received by the leader of the White Chapel Vigilance Committee, which is like a neighborhood watch. Right and it's a package with a kidney and the following note
from owl, Mr. Lusk sore. I sent you half the kidney. I took one from one woman para saved it for you to other piece I fried and ate it. It was very nice. I may send you the bloody knife that took it out if only wait a while longer. Signed. Catch me when you can. Mr. Lusk. This is why I will not eat steak and kidney pie and England You just never know or blood sausage come on
come on they determined this this kidney human this kidney done been preserved in spirits for a while. We don't know how long they couldn't necessarily say it came from her. Her kidney that type of but this was a human kidney it's a human kidney and things are now we are we are ankle deep in crazy trauma. The police are doubling and they're circling every block way quicker. Everyone's under suspicion. It's crazy.
And the fear what is happening now we're introducing cannibalism. Now we're introducing this is Hannibal Lecter stuff
exactly. I mean, when you talk about all the hallmarks of what we consider sort of modern serial killers, taunting the police cannibalism, sex workers, women, I mean, it truly did set the like, what we what we establish, are we at five yet their final victim? It is 10:45am on November 9, dude get ordered by his boss who is a landlord to go collect rent at 13 Miller's court, which like every place in my chapel is a shithole. Like it is though a private area, but it's like a wall was put up in an already too small house and the only door to like get into this unit was through the alleyway. And it's got a broken window, but it's
space. Sure. And they were always late with their rent any six and
this at this particular moment. Yeah, they're six weeks behind. So dude goes to the to the flat, doors locked knock, somebody comes there's a broken window with like a makeshift curtain over it and he lifts it up and he looks through this hole in the window and sees just from that vantage point, bad death blood. And he goes to his boss and is like, I don't know, how would you like me to proceed? And his boss is like, well, we let's go check that up. So they go the heat looks together through the window. And they're like, Yep, we got called please. I don't know what that that bad. Let's call it doesn't look good. The police come and Peter at this point, they don't go in right away. And it's so dumb. They were trying reaching for modern, investigative techniques. And they have bloodhounds and they were like Don't Quit fucking up these scenes by carrying away the dead people immediately and washing all the blood away. Like I think we kind of need this stuff to figure out what's going on. Just quit fucking touching everything. Just wait for bloodhounds. Wait for people to get there before you do anything. So they're waiting, waiting, waiting. And then finally like, get the fuck in there. What are you guys waiting for? And like, okay, fine, like, open the door finally, and they go in. Now, I don't particularly consume true crime, in part because every once in a while you get an image, like the image of the body of Mary Jane Kelly, that you just can never unsee I've described to you the brutalization in the murders of these women. And there are in existence, some autopsy sketches, and pictures of the area. But you there's no crime scene photos, when in the case of Mary Jane Kelly, there are two very clear crime scene photos that are so horrible that honestly, I'm not going to include it on my site, if you can find it in a second. But I just want to warn you like what I say with my daughter when she's consuming things that scare her. Protect your imagination, to be careful with yourself, because it's pretty bad.
I think people realize photography existed.
And it was new, but they got this. Yeah. So here is what they find inside. Now. First of all, the woman Mary Jane Kelly is different than the other victims in the sense that she is in a private house. She's the only one found indoors. That is part of the reason why her injuries are so much more extensive than anyone else's because the killer had time and privacy. She is 20 years younger than the previous victim. That's
what I wanted to do address. Yeah, she's late 40s.
She's kind of she's described as beautiful. She was a high end prostitute. She worked in really nice brothels for a while before she had come down to White Chapel. She has no face when I say you can't recognize her. It's not that you couldn't recognize her if you knew her. I mean, it's hard to recognize it's a human face. No lies, no nose, no lips, no ears just slashed beyond recognition. You can kind of see the scalp of like a head her throat slashed twice down, not just to the vertebrae, but there are cuts into the vertebrae to the point where the force was stronger than the others. Her heart is missing. her abdomen has been completely emptied and is over her shoulder some of its by her feet. both breasts have been cut off ones by her shoulder ones by her foot on the table next to her but the guy who came to get the rent saw was just a pile of flesh like all of the flesh that he had taken off her abdomen he had like put like a towel like a wet towel on the table next to her. You is undoubtedly the most gruesome thing that anyone there had ever seen. There were no reports and this is true with all the women of any screaming any fighting. Any one woman who lived directly above her said she thinks maybe she heard someone leave at 545. But other than that, there is next to nothing. A witness said they, they heard her singing in her room until after midnight. She was then out looking for clients as late as 2am. One person said that he saw her with a man with a mustache. And so there, again, the most brutal, the most horrible, and it is after that date, November 9, no more murders like this. No more letters. It's cold. Now people would know still letters, but nothing that remotely resembles the letters that make no sort of reference and sort of the historical record. And there's still murders. torsos found.
There's some murders that Yeah. In the beginning, they said were part of it. And then as they looked at it closer said, No, that's why you have the conical five.
That's exactly right. Because like one woman, for example, got her throat slashed, and by her boyfriend who turned up covered in blood a little bit. And then there's some torsos found and people like, Well, if the if the Ripper did appear to be getting increasingly brutal, and increasingly, whatever, it doesn't seem that far that that there would be heads and arms and legs eventually. But that's a leap, you know, and why did the letter stop and whatever. So it is after Mary Jane Kelly's murder, that there's just a poof of dust, and it's over. In 1892, they officially close the case unresolved. And we begin the 135 year trail that we are on now of speculation, assumption and conspiracy theories. So what I want to do now is take a little break refill up beverages and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about our favorite Sasebo suspects.
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Hello, everyone. My name is Brad.
And I'm Denise we are the host of worlds to crime podcast. Every Monday, we released an episode research by me about the most heinous criminals throughout history of across the globe.
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Before we continue in pursuit of Jack the Ripper, a huge thank you for the generous lube that you've applied to our algorithm. Right? I mean, we are breaking download records with every episode and we just couldn't do it without you and your likes and shares and reviews and telling your friends to
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What we're gonna do now is dig into the stuff that helped build the fame of the case. And what I want to try to do is I'm just gonna start with really loosely outlining the cops like the law enforcement investigation portion of it with just a little bit more highlight because I mentioned the beginning the Blitz and the reason why a lot of this stuff is gone. But they weren't as dumb. As they weren't Keystone Cops are made Keystone. And they were criticized at the time they had these real embarrassing like cartoons of like, look at these fucking like blindfolds on the cops and like the rippers behind them, and they were like, What the fuck do you want us to cut that to bloody women? We don't we don't even know who these women are for like two days?
Well, that was the thing too. It wasn't like people have licenses or you could go on a database data database and find what they do. But also, you talked about Scotland Yard and they were the pinnacle of police work.
That's right, you make a very good point, if any fucking police asked in place was going to figure it out. It was probably going to be Scotland Yard. And here's what they do. So from the beginning of the case, we have White Chapel police and London police because even though all these women were killed within about a mile of each other, technically were like lines are drawn. One of them was killed in London so they had already brought like officially London Police
and it's all a part of London. They're just different zones. Exactly. And
it's all To like departments just like this now, villages and department, sort of officials, so they're doing house to house searches. They did hundreds of interviews. They are lining up sailors with hookers just walking around being like, nope, nope, nope. Like they are doing what they can they're making arrests, even if it's just because you're a Jew with leather apron, but they're trying. And the, like I said at 92 They're like, No more murders. No more letters. Like we'll bring up this case whenever anybody thinks they've gotten some, but here we go. One of the lead investigators on the case was a guy named Frederick Eberlein. That's Johnny Depp in the From Hell movie. He was not an opium addict.
There's one thing don't do with Sherlock Holmes. never existed, actually.
But Sir Arthur Conan Doyle has a theory on this case, which is actually very interesting. You've got the White Chapel Vigilance Committee, which I mentioned before was the Mr. Lesko got the From Hell ladder, right with the kidney in it. And then you've got this guy named Thomas bond, who very fascinating. He is one of the first to really delve into like a psychological profile. And he's not trying to figure out who he is with evidence. They're like, what kind of person should we be looking for? And he was like, Well, they probably seem real normal, because they're able to blend in and like nobody seems to know, but they have these crazy manic murderous tendencies. Never knows. Like, that's crazy that you knew that. You know, now you're like, look, yeah, that was a river. Yeah, that's probably what it was. But here are the things that then and now are the most common presumptions about whoever this individual is. These seem to be the theories that would, you know, include a good subject one, this individual probably lived or worked in the area, because the streets and the alleys of white chaffle are narrow, unpredictable, winding dead ends, unless you really knew the place it'd be hard to quick hide. Get out of there without being seen. You had to know how to know where a quiet corner was to hide someone or
there's no GPS back then. No Thomas guide, reaching back on the time.
And even the idea of like a getaway carriage. You know, that's something people see, you know, that you're gonna notice.
So, when I saw a carriage go, right, it went a little faster.
And the guy said, See my moustache. Oh, yeah, do we? So the theory is that the individual lived or worked around there, too. Is that the this is funny that the person had anatomical knowledge, some surgical experience, right, right. Or that the individual absolutely did not have anatomical knowledge or surgical experience you the Ripper eyelid, just the torn because somebody like they took out a heart and a kidney. I don't exactly know, kidney. But then they're like, Yeah, but this wasn't like a heart kidney transplant. They're just getting it out. And if you got a person, you can probably find their heart if you just want to get it out.
Yes, but I think the thing was, is there was some precision in the cutting. It wasn't like the Jack the Ripper was about him taking the stuff out, not ripping it out. I wouldn't know what the kidney is.
Right? I know there's so many that I what we do know is this individual has very sharp tools. So that kind of okay, so maybe they don't have surgical knowledge but they have butchers or surgical instruments sure seems to be the idea. A man with the exception of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is the one who proposed a Jill the river. Yeah. Jill the river and he suggested that this would be a crazy midwife. Someone who was used to you know, because there's so much uteruses in this the uterus is missing the abdomen, the vagina has been torn. And you know, when we're all like,
it just doesn't mean there's just never a time that someone says they saw a woman. Women aren't any type of female serial killer the women are known to do something this brutal.
It really started to kind of but if you're a health fan, you'll know that I had talked about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in my Houdini episode, right? And he's kind of a dunce, actually. It turns out he was an opium and he believed a lot of crazy shit. So he didn't need a lot of evidence to believe stupid shit. And then the the final sort of assumption is that because the murders stopped abruptly, in November night, that the perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders the individual known as Jack the Ripper, either died, moved or was incarcerated or committed sometime after November. Because even then, even with the first Oh gee, right version of this kind of killing people were like, you don't just stop yeah, those are the assumptions. So given that general background on the investigation, how things went or You ready for my suspects? And now you know, and you've been digging in on this stuff too. So if I have omitted any suspects or if you know more than I'm bringing in girl jump in, well, here's
the disclaimer on that if I can do that it's not my show. It's your show, but your claim away. Here's a disclaimer that I would like to fuck is that there's a ton of suspects. Yeah, like you were just saying, like, there's so many people that followed their idea of what the trail was. So in looking things up, you're gonna find 3040 people, right? But then there tends to be one or two that's always in the same list. So that's what I'm that's what I'm intrigued to see what you found. diridon Yeah. How? How was your digging?
deep and thorough? I'd be surprised if you didn't get this guy right early on. Aaron. Kozminski. Yes. Okay, so Aaron Kozminski. He's a Polish Jew who hated women. Apparently he was misogynist. He had homicidal tendencies. He was committed by his family to an insane asylum after November 9 and eighth early in 1889. He had schizophrenia his family seemed to kind of think that he might have been Jack the Ripper. But then the reason it rises to the top and is often one of the first suspects mentioned is because retired police commissioner wrote a book because as we've said, Girl can sell a book if you put Jack the Ripper in it. And he says, I know who Jack the Ripper was, I know the individual but this individual it was a Jew who has now committed to an asylum. Should I say his name? I don't know. He taught literally rice and like I don't know if I should say his name. It would probably wouldn't do any good. If I said his name, everyone would just go crazy. So I won't say his name. But don't worry. He's been nomadic, committed. And he's and he's since gone. So don't worry about it. But then that book was in the possession of another police officer, another retired police officer from that unit who had written in pencil in the margin. So he reads his colleagues tell all book, and he writes in the margins, Aaron Kozminski like this is the fuck he's talking about. Right? So through this they were like here's yet another you know, connection to the director of the killing that you're like, Well, you know, I don't know that. Let me wrote his name down. And then the big one the most recent like Welcome to the Millennium Jack the Ripper in 2007. A writer named Russell Edwards buys a bloody Shawl in auction. Why would you pay money for a bloody shawl because it belonged to Catherine Eddowes
and you're saying bloody as it had blood on it and Bucha version of like look at that bloody show.
Well, it could have been both could net but this apparently this shawl this bloody shawl get this this is a story. This is at least a story that was No, no, this is this is what I know. So the bloody shawl was taken allegedly from the scene of the crime by one of the cops who gives it to his wife as like good news, baby. This is a bloody shawl from a dead hooker. I know how much you love the
look at that Christmas dance
ties are really gonna sparkle. She of course is like Euro Fagin psycho. She puts the shell in a box and puts it away. That's two weird things right there. That he brought it home and that she doesn't just throw it immediately into the
Gibbs to investigator wash it or throw it or whatever she
puts it bloody still in storage for 100 years. Were eventually a descendant of theirs finds the bloody Shawl in this magic goes on antique Road Show says I have a bloody shawl from Katherine. Okay, so 1395 Well, in 2007 Russell Edwards is like I don't know how much you paid for the shawl. That would be the shawl. He gets it to a biological DNA expert who is now putting all of our favorite CSI shit on this stuff. And he through according to Russell Edward book, because guess who wrote a book, he is able to determine through the DNA found on the shawl and the DNA of Aaron Kozminski is known descendents, that there is some blood related to the Kozminski on this shawl holy fuck blew it open in combination with what this police commissioner wrote down in his book he the murder stopped after he was committed. Bop Bop done deal. So many problems of course. One is why would Jack the Ripper has blood be on this shawl? Like it doesn't that it's covered in blood from a dead woman makes sense that it the killer's blood doesn't make any sense. Then people who understand DNA slightly more than authors and slightly more than historians were like oh, that's not how DNA like mitral kambriel DNA doesn't tell you to people are related. It tells you two people could not possibly be related because So many of us share mitochondrial DNA that it can only be used to disprove relation. So this immediately is coming out. And so but he was like, Yeah, but it's still probably him though, right? And the fact is people are like now maybe. Okay, so that's, that's where we leave it with Aaron because you want to believe it. You got two reasons to believe it. The next one here's listen this one Severin Clasico ski. sounds very much like giving Kozminski and Severin who doesn't like a good seven. This guy is so tricky. His name sounds so much like the previous suspect. And his alias was George Chapman, which is the last name of one of the victims Annie Chapman. It makes it all very confusing. This guy was considered a suspect because he moved to White Chapel just as the murders began. And he the murders stopped right after he left, right. He has a big ol moustache, which wanders on. And he did kill three of his wives and was executed for the murder of his wives in 1903. However, the reason I don't believe this guy is because he killed his wife with poison, right? Yes, yes. I'm like, Girl if you want to hold someone's kidney and throw their intestines over their left shoulder you don't you don't just start slipping a little arsenic in the in the teapot. I think that's now right.
And it was he killed why his wives Right? Like yeah, it was like more of an intimate like, totally
for a reason should kill a wife. Forbid she
spends too much money at the White Chapel.
She won't shut the fuck up. How about that? He This is an interesting one. Did you stumble upon Montague John drew a Yeah, so he is a dismissed disgraced school teacher who was quote unquote, sexually insane, which probably just means he likes it in the butt once in a while. But there you go. Easy. His family thought it was him. And he kills himself and is found in the team's days after Mary Kelly's murder. But once they time how long he had been in the water, they can see that it was possible that he killed her that night and jumped into the river that same night,
right. My issue with this guy with Montague, which I love the names.
Montague John drew great, great name
is why it doesn't fit the escalation of the killings and the writing of these letters. If you're going to put that all together. Why would you kill yourself? Yeah, like you haven't reached your Pinnacle yet? Yeah, but it doesn't fit right. Like why would you do that? We're writing all these letters, or at least three letters, taunting the police. This is your most horrific murder. You must be ridin high
oil and that's exactly why Peter This is why the more you research the more difficult because that assumption that would somewhat eliminate the idea that it was Montague John drew it requires those letters actually being from John Jack the Ripper, where if those letters from from Jack the Ripper were actually fabricated by the media and Jack the Ripper is a shy little squirrely weirdo, then it? We it's not we're not looking for a boastful person who's trying to advertise their crimes. So you have to presume that one unknown thing is true to confirm or deny any of the following suspects. It's why it's such another sort of similar similar one where he's he's considered largely because of an arrest for homosexuality is a guy named Dr. Francis tumbled tea. And as any vein American we have to bring this up because it's one of the few American suspects. He's a flamboyant American doctor, huge mustache and girl, I'm telling you, this most of this is bigger than most of the like, like, this is a huge mustache and he wears like, sort of military inspired. He's wears metals and like a feather and he is fabulously fan and he he's kind of a medicine man. Like he sells fake appointments and things. He is arrested in London for homosexuality right around the same time as the Whitechapel murders. He knows he's under suspicion and they've brought him in and he escapes to France, and then from France back to America. Then Then there were rumors there were stories that he had thrown a party where he showed off a room full of jars full of uteruses that he but that says, and that has been written down and repeated gazillion times. One of the things that our man here Phillip Sugden is so good about is he's like there is zero. Follow up on this story. Somebody said it 100 People repeated it. No one saw it. No one is willing to say they saw it. No one has any photographs of it. He has no documentation of this. There is no reasonable understanding of how I went there like ironing it. It all made up because it sounds cool. But
also if you're talking about somebody who's that noticeable walking around White Chapel. Yeah, it doesn't fit. The personality doesn't fit has nothing to do about being gay or straight. If you're walking around and you don't know the area one and two, if you're wearing those clothes and his mustache was that fantastical, it wouldn't just be Oh, we had a mustache. It would have been like, oh, he was wearing the Windsor John 43. You know, like it would have a name and a number.
Is it Magnum? P I had a floral shirt. Exactly. He was wearing
shorts, Tom Selleck. It was tough. I am now introducing himself because I suspect
he'd fit right in. He fit right in. And then there's this guy, Carl feagan bomb. Yeah, is an interesting guy. He was a German sailor docked in White Chapel during the murders, which explains why he wouldn't have been picked up and like a door to door search and like some of the, you know, investigations and bars and stuff because he could have just come into town killed her and gone right back to the boat. He was arrested for slitting women's throats in New York City. He said he hated women. And he was executed in America in 1896. So people draw lines and saying yeah, again, perfectly viable. My favorite suspect. So if you recall way back our very first of the canonical five poly. Our guy Robert Paul is walking down Buck's row, that long, narrow alleyway. And then Charles Krause is like, oh my gosh, there's a woman here and then they're like, We gotta go to work, right. So there is a documentary, one of my favorites put out by the Smithsonian Institution. And it's this Swedish historian, this Swedish journalist who is like Charles Krause is Jack the Ripper, the guy who found Polly's body because when they recreate White Chapel in 1888, and they talk about the interviews they had with Robert Paul, and with Charles cross, they're like, so he says, the guy was like, hey, there's a woman over here. And I went over there and there she was dead. But he would have seen and heard another man walking to work down that alleyway, if he had been also moving and walking before he found that body. He just appears next to her. But that's not an alleyway access way that he would have been coming down and entered bucks row from like another entrance. Like in piecing it together. He was like, What the fuck was Charles cross doing there? And she was freshly dead, remember? I mean, they felt her Her hands were cold, but everything else felt warm. And it was like a cold morning. So they couldn't tell like how long she'd been dead. Robert Paul's like, let's pick her up. And he and Charles Krause was like, no, no, no, there's lots of reasons why you wouldn't wanna pick up a debt. But if they do, but what we know now is that if they had, they would have seen immediately that her throat was slit, right? They would have noticed that right away. Then when they bring in Charles cross to question him, he gives a different name. He gives the name of Charles latchmere. And there's all and one of the most fun things about researching these suspects, and I hope you had this experience and you at home might find them even more, is you either don't believe any of them. Every suspect comes around. You're like No, no, no, no, can't be them can't be them. Or you find when you like, that's the fucking one and you get emotional and you get latched on and you get like, I fucking figured it out. And then you watch another one that you go nope, they're not someone that's I figured it out. But like this one I keep coming back to and every time I've revisited the story, and they mentioned just casually the Charles Krause founder. I'm like, Yeah, but did he he was also a Carmen a car man. He like delivered stuff around London. A lot of it severed animals to butchers. He was a car man specifically to butchers so he would have been covered in blood all the time wouldn't have seemed weird. He would have had access to all of these tools. Who knows? My biggest problem with why Charles crosses because we don't know why he would have stopped. He lives a bit past this. And it doesn't make a lot of sense why he would have stopped, but I will encourage you to watch the documentary in the link and see what you think. And then we can be conspiracy theory suspects Pete before I get into my conspiracy theory suspects Do you want to give me your your favorite?
My favorite your favorite one that I always believed was Jack the Ripper? Yeah. Is Prince Albert Victor. Yes, because there's so much in the investigations that apparently at the time started getting covered up because it was the royal family hiding the fact that they had this deviant guy who had syphilis, and they believe the syphilis made him mad, angry, mad, but also his mind went mad. So I've always I was one of the people that got On the royalty bandwagon that it was,
well, that is what's proposed in that from hell, the graphic novel and that from hell movie does draw that connection and people God damn, it is always more interesting. There's fucking royal involved. He was victorious grand song Queen Victoria's grand. The trickiest with Victor is in addition to all of this, like high royalty stuff, he was also described by virtually everyone as a moron. inbred, you know, hard, very simple. They always described them as very simple and very unmotivated. So this is what's so funny about the various theories about Prince Albert Victor that I love. One is exactly said that he got syphilis from a prostitute. It drove him mad enough to kill right and vengeful enough to want to go get the bitches that gave it to him. They realized fairly quickly in the research into this theory that he was not in England at the time. For the for the entirety. I literally wasn't in the country. He was gone. But then people hold on to the theory, because they still really love it. And God bless you. I love it, too. It's fucking great. Yeah. So they were like, All right, so he's printing, it doesn't mean he killed him himself. Even though that is what the civil, the whole thing of the syphilis was that it was mad enough to do it better. But like none of that. The Royal the royal world, while he was out of the country, realized one this affair has to be covered up because there was a child as a result of it. So it may have syphilis, whatever, but that there was an illegitimate heir. Now that brings the whole royal family into it. It is their business to get these LEDs. And so they knew the woman Her name was Annie crook. They were like Annie crooks, the one she's the prostitute that Prince Albert slept with. She's the one who had the baby. And we need to kill her. But we need we can't just go kill a prostitute. So we have to kill like five of them in really horrible ways that like throws them off the scent. All of this to suggest that if the royal family wanted to kill a prostitute and White Chapel, they would have to first of all kill a bunch of prostitutes so that it would seem weird, then, you know that they would be worried that people would think I mean, it's just it's so far fetched. Then they were like, they think then they were like, No, it wasn't that that these prostitutes were blackmailing the royal family. So they didn't kill five prostitutes just to cover up they killed these five prices, because these other guys know Right? And let me tell you, it would happen if any of these five prostitutes had gone with actual evidence to anyone who mattered and said, I know that Prince Albert is fucking one of my friends. Fuck nothing. Nothing would have happened. It was not a threat to the royal family, and even a baby there's not DNA testing. A prostitute had a baby and she said it was Prince Albert's This is not a threat to the royal family. This doesn't bother them. And like I said, you know, Prince Albert was a dunce. Here's the one if you really want to hold on to the royal family. And I can tell you, you do
I do. I believe they were involved somehow.
Okay, so here's here's maybe the more viable one ready. His name is Willie Clarkson. And he's Queen Victoria's wig maker. Okay, so he has a violent past he's known he stalked his ex fiance and like a violent manner. He bribes people and then he covers up his bribery with arson. He personally was hired to create the disguises for the cops because they started to go undercover, which I think is lyric Can you imagine how obvious a cop who was dressed by the Queen's wig maker would be undercover? Hello, fellow. Oh,
my God, your hair is amazing.
I grew up with my hand.
Mustache was like a dog glued to his lip. There in this amazing taffeta outfit with gorgeous silver buttons and
give me a one of your rotten shots of nasty booze. We're all so fun. I would like to purchase a lady for my sexual pleasure. But yeah, it really clicked but what they're suggesting is that Willie Clarkson in helping the cops build their disguises, knew about their investigation would have been keyed in on their plans who their suspects were and where they were after. So he would have been able to sort of cover his tracks. And of course, as a wig maker, he had a lot of sharp tools and knives.
Yeah, but then that doesn't help the initial first murder.
No, no that I mean there's little you know the holes. But here's you want it you want bigger holes. Let me give you let me give you the two other famous because it's so fun. And because there's like so many blurry edges. You can fit it around just about everyone. It's a dude you know who was alive at the time. These two are famous. They're not roil famous but they are famous enough to register one is named Walter Sickert. He is a famous painter. He was obsessed with Jack the Ripper, which I always find really funny. cuz, of course the only people who are obsessed with Jack the Ripper are deeply researching who the suspects are to try to figure out who they are. So I find it so funny that one of the first things that makes him suspicious is how much he was interested in search. It's like, look
in the mirror. He was eight years old when it all happened. And he
hated his mom and he painted work. That not just was of dead prostitutes. But after misses after the murder, big paintings of dead prostitutes, but he also named some of his work Jack, the rippers bedroom, stuff like that. And so people with very little imagination said he must be that Jack the Ripper? No, that's fine. Making money the the one that I have to mention, just because it's so dumb. And some guy wrote a book girl wrote a book about it. Is the that Lewis Carroll
Oh, yeah, this was one of mine. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. I'd like Alice in Wonderland through the looking glass.
Picture you've ever seen of Lewis Carroll. He looks like Little Miss Moffat and
he has no mustache. Thank you, Peter. I
didn't even think about that. Um, Lewis Carroll. Here's the this. This guy's theory on why it's so this girl. God bless him. One was that he? He had a diary. Okay. And he usually wrote in purple ink. But on the days, the White Chapel murders happened. He wrote in black ink. I mean, and he took a portion of loose I don't know if it was Alice in Wonderland or a letter or a diary of the time, but he took some writing of Lewis Carroll. And saw some elaborate anagram that said, I'm Jack the Ripper, and I love eating women's kidneys or something. And like, it's that's it. That is literally all the evidence he had to like, write to think about how Lewis Carroll was Jack the Ripper. And it was so good, because like some people came together afterwards. And we're like, buddy, took his book Introduction, and did an anagram that said, I'm Jack the Ripper. And I love eating. Like
Lewis Carroll is though, you know, he was always the creepy side of Lewis Carroll, which, yeah, is disturbing is that he was more into the younger children. Yes. So he wouldn't be going to White Chapel in hanging out with prostitutes, right? Because he was busy writing children's books.
Yeah, if there Yeah, we don't need to completely exonerate Lewis Carroll from anything sort of out of the lines of of normalcy, but you can't connect them to the murder of these women.
And that's the interesting thing about the suspects. They're always they're all people that there was something wrong with them in a way. So they were obviously on the outskirts. There's one one more that I Yeah, American, another American Grand Jury say this guy. HH Holmes. No. So this HH Holmes is the one that for American involvement. He was known to be a very dark person, he had built the occult and dark magic stuff. And so he had built a complete gas chamber and Dissection Room with trapdoors in the basement furnace in Chicago, where he was building a hotel. And although he was arrested and convicted, and he was sentenced to death, for some of the horrible murders he committed here in America, he was one of America's first serial killers. His grants his great grandson believes that he has found proof that his great grandfather, great great grandfather was Jack the Ripper because he has some information that was outlined in his involvements with the Whitechapel murders. And the biggest thing with this is it had to be somebody that they trusted. Well, I know he couldn't he could have been no, he couldn't have been that odd.
Saying yes, but we are talking about 40 year old drunk prostitutes who need six shillings to sleep upright that night. What they know is that they are going to take someone who needs someone like them, which means they're all going to be a little weird. They're all gonna be a little drunk. Their judgment is not very clear, especially like Catherine Eddowes, who was released from a drunk tank hours before and is just sobered up enough to be released. And what the consistent thing they have to do is bring their clients into the dark where no one can see them and hear them. So they are that is among the things that makes it so difficult is they're desperate and they're committing an illegal act in the dark with people that you would probably not go into a dark alley with unless your alternative was sleeping on a rock in the rain by yourself,
which I call Thursday Thursday.
Welcome to LA. I mean, I gotta tell you, Peter, thank you for suggesting this subject because it was I had a lot Deep. I had a lot of fun. I adore you. I adore you. And I'm so grateful that we got to help check the records.
And it's unsolved so we can keep helping it.
Thanks again to my friend Peter vote, and to you for hanging out with us. I'll be back in two weeks with stand up comedian and former Marine, James P. Connolly. We're helping doomsday baby the apocalypse, the end of the world Armageddon. And for something that hasn't happened yet. It's got an incredible history, you won't want to miss it. In the meantime, our theme song was composed and performed by cat Perkins, and a reminder that you can find my sources, links to the books, documentaries and articles I referenced in the summary of this episode, or by emailing us health podcast@gmail.com or messaging us on social media at Health podcast. This has been health history I'd like to fuck with Dawn Brodey I'm Dawn Brody, reminding you that history is a party and everybody's coming.
Hello, my name is Jack and I am the host of The Secret Police podcast. Do you have a problem with authority? Because I do and I'm on a mission to help us all build a healthy skepticism towards those in power. I do this by exploring how dictators enforce their rule. On secret police we explore the history and methods of the world's most brutal secret police forces. Currently, we are chronicling Russia's long relationship with secret police forces from Ivan the Terrible's over generici The Soviet secret police up to the modern day FSB. If you're into history, dark humor and hearing about the worst of what the human race has to offer. This is the show for you. Listen to episodes of secret police on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon music, Google podcasts pretty much anywhere you find podcasts. Agents dismissed
