Today, you will hear the views and ideas of our pozcast guests. We're eager to showcase their expertise and provide a platform for their views, but they may not always reflect or align with the views of the Positive Effect, or the Map Center for Urban Health Solutions.
Welcome to pozcast we are created by and for people living with HIV. On each episode, we explore what it means to be poz. We challenge the status quo, and we share stories that matter to us. I'm James Watson, and I'm HIV positive. If you're living with HIV, listen up.
I don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about me in the broadest sense of that sentence. And so I've never accepted anyone stigma around being HIV positive, I refuse it. I was a human being doing a human act. And everyone who's had sex has done that has had unprotected sex. I think that's a possible statement to make. And so I was human. And thats it, and I'm not apologizing for it, and I don't accept your stigma.
We have a great show for you. This is pozcast.
Well hello everyone. Welcome to pozcast. It's been a while. I took a little bit of a break from production had a little downtime. But I'm very happy to be back with you now. It was kind of a long and dreary no vacation Canadian winter for me, unfortunately, I hope you fared better. But finally, hey, it's spring, officially, thank goodness. You might of course be listening to this episode in another season. If that's the case, I need you to pretend for me to imagine that right now it's the first flush of spring that all those feely spring feelings wash over you. Longer days renewed energy, new life with a dash of hope, and inspiration.
And what better way to ring in the spring (and here's my clunky segue folks) but with a fresh new pozcast and exciting new guest with an inspirational message. In fact, our guest today has been brilliantly described by the Huffington Post as Canada's gay Oprah and I'm speaking of course, of the lovely and talented Mr. Shaun Proulx.
What a nice intro.
Shaun hosts the Shaun.
Sorry, keep going. Im Loving it.
Okay, good. Okay, so Shaun hosts the Shaun Proulx show, a weekly talk show heard across North America on Sirius XM Canada talks. And it's now in its 11th season. And he's spoken with everyone from the likes of Oprah to Lady Gaga, to Betty White. And he's also the publisher of the gayguidenetwork.com, Canada's first digital queer magazine, founded in 2002. He's an actor and a writer who's written for all the major national newspapers. He's a motivational speaker, a life coach, and an HIV activist. And on top of all this, he has a new gig, writing and producing and hosting the new realize podcast that explores the strength and adaptability and determination of people living with episodic disabilities. Shawn, welcome.
Now am I on now? I thought, Well, what a nice intro. And I came and he had more to say.
You're a busy guy, you have a lot going on.
I was thinking myself, I can't believe you guys scored the name pozcast. I can't believe that wasn't taken as brilliant. I know.
There is another pozcast, but it's some business thing.
Oh they don't know.
They don't know.
That's like when you see these companies, you're driving down like the Gardiner or whatever where the industrial stuff is. And you see like a company called fag.
Straight world where they use names. There's a company called PNP.
Yes, it's true. It's true. So I went down many rabbit hole, a Shaun Proulx rabbit hole, I have to sit here. You've got a lot of stuff out there. Like there's a lot about you. Which I guess is a pro and a con in many ways. But I wanted to start our conversation at a key decision point in your life. If I could you had a very successful career prior to this one in finance, and you realize it wasn't for you. So you reinvented yourself as a creative entrepreneur as you describe. You gave up everything to follow your dreams and your authentic self. And I think, you know, everyone longs for this kind of approach to their lives, but very few of us make that leap. So what was the tipping point for you? I'm curious, why were you ready to make that shift?
It was around y2k. And so there was something in the air there was change in the air and even though a lot of the predictions of what what the first day of 2000 would be like with remember, the ATMs were all going to be down and there was a problem with a decimal point and everything was going to go to hell in a handbasket. All of that was sort of bubbling even though none of that stuff happened. And I was looking at my life. And I was making a lot of money as making six figures. I had bought a house in Leslieville I was addicted to shopping. I came home everyday with something I'd go up to to Bretton's. If you remember Bretton's in the Yorkville area, and buy something every day or Harry Rosen, I'd come home with a bag. And I realized I was trying to get some kind of high every day, to supplement the fact that I didn't really, I was good at what I was doing. It was very exciting. I was flying around the country flying to the US all the time, there was a bit of of glamour to that. But if anyone who is listening, has a job where they're traveling a lot. They know that there's no glamour to it at all. And I remember going to the airport to go to say Montreal or something like that, where I'd be gone for three days. And as the car pulled up towards the airport, and I could see the planes, I literally sank down in my seat, I didn't do it consciously, I literally sank down in my seat, I did not want to get on that plane. And it was also a world of acquire and accumulate not just in terms of financial assets and stuff like that. But the people in the office were always jostling for position in terms of look at my new watch, I just bought this new boat, I just had to just took a plane to my Muskoka cottage, that kind of thing. And it turned me off. I just realized that it was a very sort of shallow world. And I wanted out of it. And I was never good at numbers, I failed grade 10 math, I should have had no business being in finance telling people what the numbers meant.
So but I what I was really good at was was theatre and words and writing and English and presentation, I was the the honorable judges, teachers and fellow students child, giving you winning all the speaking awards and stuff like that. And I hadn't touched any of those passions the whole time I was in finance that was for about an eight year period. And I thought to myself, if I could do this, with what I'm really bad at numbers, what would I achieve if I worked with what I'm really good at what I love doing. And then I thought I'd worked really hard in finance. And I thought to myself, if I work this hard for myself, what would happen? And so I just made the decision that I was going to try and everybody told me not to people were freaking out. My mother was freaking out that as my job. But when you what I discovered is when you make the decision, life starts to show you indicators that you have made the right decision. I had I was at a client's wedding in Fredericton. And they had it in an art gallery. And I was looking at the art and there was a guest book and I went to sign the guest book. And my writing is a little hieroglyphic kind of writing. And I was signing it and a woman came up to me and she was urgent and she grabbed my arm. She's like, look at your handwriting. What are you doing? You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. You're creative. You should be doing creative things. And she blurted all that out. I had, I had lots of experiences like that I found a little thing in the store that said, What would you do if you knew you could not fail, and it's still in, it's in my bathroom. To this day, lots of stuff like that, like life kept giving me hints that I was doing the right thing. And indeed, I auditioned for this play at Buddies in Bad Times. And while I was leaving finance, and I got a call on the very first day of being freed of my finance career at 9am, saying I got in the part, and it was a lead in the play. And it turned out to be very successful play. But I felt that was life. You are doing the right thing. It's 9am On your first day and your new career. And here's the part that you just auditioned for for you. Right. Wow. That's a long answer to a short question.
Very interesting. I mean, and scary. I imagine it's a it's a fearful move. And I suppose you had some buffer financial buffer to...
No. No, when I left finance, I was I was a bit of a trickster, and I left with a payment plan of six months of my salary, but I was like 29 or 30 when I did that, and so I was still unwisely spending as though I would always be making that amount of money. So I was putting in a new deck in my backyard of my home I was building in a pond and and all this kind of stuff as well. I should have been squirrely at away buying clothes going out.
Right?
And so I soon found myself to be like completely broke. I decided to sell my house obviously, and started anew and I don't regret any of it.
That's amazing.
It was scary, but you sort of handle one thing at a time you do the first what's in front of you, now it's time to sell my house. That's not so bad. I walked away with a profit. And so that kept me going for a little while.
That's excellent. You know, in an interview that I read that you gave to Jade Elektra for paws Planet magazine, you said that you make your living being yourself now. And what a joyful statement I thought and as a person living with HIV, it really resonated with me. So what impact has HIV had on you making a living and being yourself?
Well, to the degree that I've made money off of writing about my experiences as an HIV positive person, or writing about the HIV epidemic, I made a documentary with, with my friend Ryan Lapidus, who co-produced it, called Decades, it was about fashion care's 20th anniversary. So making money out of that I've worked with pharma companies, on projects and stuff like that. So that obvious way, it's affected my career. There's a terrible joke that went around, when AIDS conferences started springing up all around the world, and people who are HIV positive, we're flying to, you know, Amsterdam, or all these great places, and somebody said to me, get AIDS see the world.
And, and but the joke is about harnessing the making lemons out of lemonade out of lemons. And so to the degree that that's true, I've done that.
Right. And what about being yourself like, you know, striving to be yourself is a challenge at the best of times for many of us, you know, and as a person living with HIV, it can be extremely complex with stigma, navigating disclosure and health priorities. And what role did that play? What does HIV play on just being yourself?
I don't give a flying fuck when anyone thinks about me, in the broadest sense of that sentence. And so I've never accepted anyone stigma around HIV being HIV positive, I refuse it. I was a human being doing a human act, and everyone who's had sex has done that has had unprotected sex.
I think that's a possible statement to make. And so I was human. And that's it and I'm not apologizing for it, and I don't accept your stigma. I can't stand the word dirty, I can't stand the word clean, I can't stand when people say I tested clean, or I'm no longer smoking pot, I'm clean again, you weren't dirty in the first place. And so I don't accept any of that kind of stuff. And I don't know how to be anything but who I am. I just did my my thing. And I, I, when I first started writing, I had a little mantra in my head. And it was like, What would Madonna do? And and and all that was was reminding me to speak, even though it'd be controversial about the things that sing in the in the gayborhood, about the things that sing as a gay man, about bear backing and about the crystal meth epidemic about all these things that we were talking about, honestly. And so I was reporting on all that sort of stuff. And I think that that may be relevant, and made people pick up the papers that I was writing for extra and read my oversight of the gigabit network, because they knew that there was truth being told. So that's the degree to which I've, I've sort of managed the authenticity piece of the puzzle.
Well, that's great. I, you know, when I was doing some research on you, I, I mean, you're not afraid of an opinion. And I like that. It's refreshing.
There's a show called, oh, gosh, it's on Netflix. And it's about on daily love on the spectrum. And it's about autistic people dating for the first time. And there's a scene where one of the guys sits down, and he says to the girl across the table from him, I don't like this. I don't like that. I don't like this. I don't want that. I like this. I like that right off the bat. And it's so refreshing. I think to myself, why aren't we all like that guy who says who they are? And who says what he likes and doesn't like, especially with dating? Like, don't wait until you're like, you know, 10 years into find out you don't want kids?
Yeah, yeah, you run some speed dating things, don't you?
I do.
Yeah. Is that a recommendation for speed dating, perhaps? Get it all that label?
Yeah, that's exactly what it is sort of is about as sit down with across the we live in the Grindr world and the sex hookup site world. And so this is a chance for guys to come in and do something really unusual, which is meet face to face and look each other in the eye and have a conversation for five minutes. And that's the time I think you want to sit down and say this is who I am. This is what i want, this is what I'm looking for and this is what I don't like, and see if there's a click.
That's amazing. Do you go to things do you I mean, do you?
I host them.
Do you host them this is very exciting.
I don't know whether I want a partner.
No?
So I, you know, a couple times I've hosted them and there been a couple of guys that I thought were hot and I thought I wish I was sort of speed dating you right now.
Right.
As the host that's not right. That's incorrect. That's inappropriate.
Right. Fair enough. Just leaping topics here...but is it safe to say that, well, what kind of role does HIV play in your life right now?
We lost guys our age, you and I, I'm 56 this year, I'm not sure how old you are. But we're peers in a sense. We lost a generation of people, men, especially who would be our mentors, our elders, the people that we would mimic and imitate and get cues off of, if you took away, say, the grandmothers of a generation, you'd have a huge impact on the girls of that generation. And I think that we lost the mentors and the father figures and the examples, you and I and men like us, people like us. And so we've had to make our way as gay people on our own, we've had to sort of figure it all out with nobody, I have three people in my life who are in their 70s and 80s right now. That's it. That I'm lucky to have because they didn't acquire HIV and pass of AIDS. So I think in terms of HIV, I see myself as 56 this year, as someone who can use his platforms to provide an example of how to manage it. How to Live well, as I said, I don't accept stigma, so how to how to do that, how to not have to how to have it be something that is an experience in your life, but doesn't define you and isn't your identity.
Right.
So I think that I can use the experience to just show others that it's not the end of the world. You see guys these days coming back with an HIV positive test and they are freaking out like it is a death sentence. And for most people, it is not anymore, yet the stigma remains and the thinking from the 1980s remains, the Ronald Reagan era remains in terms of of the wake, that HIV has left behind, we're still in that thinking that HIV is a terrible thing. And really, it's a stigma that you've got to manage. And if you can think to yourself, I don't accept all this stuff and truly mean it and not accept it, that you're well on your way. And I like to put that out there.
Absolutely. That's a great message I now you intentionally disclosed very publicly on CBC Radio in 2013. And at that time, were you concerned about the stigma and everything that comes with it? Or were you ready?
Well, that was an interesting experience, because I had never told anybody after I got my result, I told a couple of close friends. I told my sexual partners. And that was it. I had never told my mother, I had never told my brothers, close family, friends and people that were important in my life. So when I knew I was going to go on CBC and disclose, I had to tell everybody, because I didn't want them to hear it on the radio or hear about it me going on the radio and doing this. And that was nerve wracking, especially with my mother, I wasn't sure how she would react to it didn't want her to freak out or worry about it. And so that was part of the experience. And then in and of itself the day of when I was sitting in the studio with Matt Galloway, bearing in mind that I been doing radio already and very comfortable in that zone. I wanted to bolt I didn't want to do it. I was afraid of it. I was nervous. I literally thought for a split second, just get up and go. And I almost did. And when if you heard it, my voice is shaking when I'm about to say it and then I set it and the relief that washed over me and the weight that was lifted from my shoulders. Because I didn't I didn't not ever tell anyone because I was ashamed of it. Or I didn't want people to think something of me. But my career was on the rise. I was I was writing for extra writing for The Globe and Mail. I was on proud FM at the time and things were really rocking and rolling for me. And I just didn't want to be the HIV radio host positive radio host with the HIV positive right or the HIV positive. I didn't want HIV positive all the way in to my identity because I didn't want it myself for my identity. I didn't want it to be a big piece of who I am so but it was it was met for the most part with great appreciationvfrom people with some haters. You know, you got to be careful with that stuff. It's a slippery slope.
Yeah. So, I mean, would you have? Do you have any advice for others thinking about disclosing?
Well, it's kind of like coming out of the closet a second time, right? As when you come out as queer. It's personal. The timing is is your timing, to decide.
The people that you tell in the order that you tell them, and how you tell them is yours to decide. I think the one thing that I did wisely with my mother to couch the information she was about to receive was I began with the words about 10 years ago. So that in her mind I, cuz I said, I've got something I want to talk to you about. I don't want you to worry. But listen to me about 10 years ago, and so her mind couldn't go okay. Well, if it happened 10 years ago, it's not that bad, because he's here right now would be a red hot minute.
So think about the person you're talking to. And the best way to frame it don't just blurt it out.
Hey, guess what? I've acquired HIV woooo?
Interesting also, is that when you tested positive for the first time, I get the feeling that fear kept you away from testing for a long time. And I..
Oh, it did.
Yeah, you describe it as a vicious cycle of daily denial, lying to yourself fear, rage and trauma. What was surprising when you tested?
Well, so the just a bit of background, my dad died when I was 17. And about two weeks later, I hooked up with two guys, twice my age partners in this small town that I lived in where I thought I was the only gay in the village. And we had unprotected sex. I foolishly told myself that if they were looking healthy, and weren't using protection, it was because they must be negative. And a lot of guys put the onus on the other people for stuff. I didn't know what a condom looked like. And I didn't have the tools to ask for a condom. I didn't know how to do that. And so with the trauma of my dad dying, it's still processing through me. And then the morning after realization of what I had done, and the risk I had put myself in, I began this vicious cycle of being terrified of being HIV positive. And I was so scared that I developed mononucleosis that winter it but I thought I was dying of AIDS. Until I found out that it was mono. I went through life. As a young man, when I moved to the city, every Thursday, I would look in the proud Live section of extra to see who had died. And if I'd slept with any of them, and I just went through this whole for 20 years spiral of never getting tested because I was so terrified. There were no drugs back then it was still a death sentence. And my doctor would ask me all the time, do you want to get tested today? No, I would say Nope, he would roll his eyes. This went on for two decades and I just thought if I get sick, then I'll get tested and that's that's that's when I'll get tested. But every single time I had a marker on my hand, every single time there was a blemish I would study that thing to see if it was changing see was becoming ks Carpo sarcoma, which was prevalent back then for guys. And watching friends die like flies all around me the whole time. It was very scary. Yeah. And I don't think I'm alone in that fear. I think a lot of us had that I just didn't was not brave enough to go and find out what happened until I got sick.
Right.
I did get sick. And so I was like, Okay, this is it. You must be HIV positive. And so to fast forward the story. Indeed I was. And I felt so peaceful about it.
And why is that?
The thing that had scared me for two decades, the monster that had been chasing me around that I had been fleeing for from for two decades, finally caught me and I looked at looked at it the eye and it wasn't scary. Now blessedly, we had arrived at a point of having meds and so it didn't have to be scary. But that's true of anything that you're afraid of in life when you look at it the eye, it's not as scary anymore.
And so I felt such deep peace by doctor who had been telling me for two decades to get tested that and saw my fear had booked off two hours to be with me because he thought I was gonna be a hot glue gun mess. And I was just like accepting of it. And I felt deep peace about it. And and I still do.
So what would you say to people having that experience who are reluctant are afraid to get tested?
Don't do what I did. We're blessed to live in a world right now, where HIV is no longer a death sentence, it is a chronic manageable condition. And you are lucky, you're going to take one pill a day, probably with little to no side effects. And we live in an age of miracles. And don't let the fact that this is something that is contracted through sex or through intravenous drug injection shame you or don't self stigmatize into thinking that this is if because if you went and got tested for some heart problems you were having, you wouldn't beat yourself up over that if you went and found out you had diabetes, you wouldn't beat yourself up over that. Don't beat yourself up, over possibly finding out that you're HIV positive, go and get tested. Don't live in fear the way I had to, for my own making my own volition. For two decades. Don't do that to yourself. We live in a time of miracles. And we've done a piss poor job of promoting that we live in a time of miracles. We got that one a day pill that came along. And we reached the point of undetectability. And it was something we had fought for for decades, people died for it, people fundraise their asses off for it into incredible things trying to raise money for it. And then we reach that miracle point. And it's almost like as a collective consciousness, we didn't believe we deserved the miracle. So we didn't talk about it. We should have promoted the hell out of that. Instead, we call each other Truvada whores. We tore each other down those who were first x able to first access Truvada were called whores because it meant that they could bareback, again with very little risk. And so we tore each other down, as opposed to celebrating this incredible thing that had happened in our society. And so I think that's, that's kind of part of the problem. And even to this day, gay people don't know what gay guys don't know what undetectable, is, which is shocking to me. We didn't do the best job with that either.
Yeah, infuriates me for sure. It's like we really can eat our own in many ways you know.
We do we do. There's a lot of self loathing. And that's from being told you're wrong, and you're dirty. And you're less than, as we are raised. And we're still raising kids like that, in this society. Look at all the messaging coming out of the right wing parties that we have out there right now. You know,
Well we're here to turn that around Shaun, we're here to turn that around.
Turn it around James.
Yeah. So you know, in all your work, you bring a certain inspirational philosophy and a lot of it where you speak of personal empowerment and life wisdom and, and speaking of the universe and life force, if you don't mind me asking, how would you describe your spirituality and what role to play in your everyday life?
I'm not a religious person. But I do believe in energy. I do believe in a universe, I believe in a bigger power. And I believe that we're all energy, we're all vibrational, and vibration matches vibration of science has proven that and when you are putting out ideas and thoughts into the world that are who you really are, which is someone who is positive and loving, and seeks joy, you get back things that match that, and your life shows you that already. If you don't believe me, you can look at the things that you complain about, that you are always worried about, that never seem to work out for you. And you got to think about the thoughts. You're thinking you're complaining about it, you're worrying about it. rich person never complains about their money situation, and they remain rich. So a healthy person. And you know, I've had some health struggles of late, but for the most part, HIV has never touched me. I know, that's because I just feel positive about my health and always have. And so a healthy person isn't thinking unhealthy thoughts. And so I just believe that the one thing you can control in your life is your thoughts. And I choose to focus all day, every day, as much as I possibly can on things that make me feel good. And good things come to my life as a result. I'm not perfect in that at all. I can bitch like anyone else, complain and worry about anything like anyone else, but at least know to, course correct. When I'm going too far into that line of thinking
Right.
I've done it. I've mentioned some health problems recently. I've been I've had to do that with those problems, and they're very few people that I complain to about those problems. I don't give it much airtime. And even right now I don't feel like talking about it because it's like, I don't want to shine a light on it.
Yeah. Fair enough. So what what um, I mean, do you have self care routines that work for you that you might want to pass on to others?
I meditate five out of seven days, a week for 15 minutes, and is the difference if I don't, the days are the days I don't meditate those are completely different days, if you can just sit quietly and be for a period of time, and whether that's a guided meditation, or just you just breathing in and out, that settles your vibration down, that changes your your brain's wiring, that does so many wonderful things to you. And that's when I get solutions to problems. That's when I get inspirations for my work. It may not come in the moment of meditation, but soon after, I'm like, oh, that's how I'll put it or even just like, oh, that's what I'll say to that bitch. And that email that I gotta write back. This is my winning email that I'm sending back to. It keeps me more grounded, I can be you know, if I'm not, I can get a little bit wound up easily. I'm just that kind of person. I care about things. And something like meditation just keeps me chill. And so I would highly, highly recommend it that start with five minutes. Just sit quietly for five minutes, it'll change your life. The other thing I would recommend is write down five things every day, or a few things every day that you're grateful for I do it after I meditate. Because it to my point earlier about thinking positive thoughts about your life and what you're seeing in your life. That's hard for people to do if they're in the habit of seeing negative world around them. But if you can just focus for for five minutes write down, I appreciate my dog, I appreciate this sunny day, I appreciate that work is going well. I appreciate that I get to see my friend tonight. I appreciate that. It's a long weekend this weekend. If you just write that down and do that on a daily basis, you contour your thinking just a little bit. And that starts to change your point of attraction as to what's what you're experiencing in your life you can start to because then you got to find five things every day. So the guy holds the door open for you at the mall. I appreciate that guy was polite to me today. Do you know what I mean? And you start seeing things around you that that you appreciate. And that's the high vibe sort of that you want to put out?
Well, sage advice I have to say. So I always end pozcast with five this or that question. So I'm hoping you'll play along with me of play Ally Love a game. Alright. So the first one and no wishy washy, I want directly
This or that meaning what?
Like well, I'll show you like loved or respected.
Do I want to be?
Yeah. Loved or respected?
Loved
Sort by price or by rating?
Price.
Be embarrassed or be afraid?
Embarrassed.
Watch a play or a drag show?
Oh, sorry, Queens, if it's a good play, I'm choosing to play.
Visual learner or verbal learner?
Oh, visual.
Visual.
Very visual yeah.
Fabulous.So before we close, you...
done already?
Well, we can keep going...
I can talk about myself forever.
I want to talk about the realized podcast. Yes, so. So can you tell us a little bit about it and what we can expect from this new podcast?
So the first thing you want to know is that realize advocates for people with episodic disabilities and people are used to thinking of disabled disabilities as a static fixed thing. You have name, name, a problem. You're in a wheelchair, you're in a wheelchair that's never going to change. Episodic disabilities come and go in people's lives. So we're thinking about things like arthritis, we're thinking about things like HIV, we're thinking about things like multiple sclerosis, long COVID. We're thinking about things like mental health conditions. So if you think of depression, you're not depressed all the time. It could come and go in your life anxiety comes and goes in your life. And we don't have a world around us that sways and bends for people with episodic disabilities. workplace accommodations are rare for people with episodic disabilities. And so this podcast shines a light on disabilities that are episodic stories of people who are moving through them and having success with them. And ideas for places like workplaces or like people listening who have family members or friends with episodic disabilities on how to help make their lives better and easier. And so I'm really excited about it because we've had some amazing people step forward. The first episode episode deals with suicide ideation and depression that is untreatable. And we have an incredible guest who is generous and shares her story about relentless suicide ideation. And she considers herself to be a catch in terms of being an an employee, but she can't get work. Second episode, we're dealing with the lonely loneliness epidemic. Because when you're lonely, I found out for a period of, say, 10 days, that can trigger long term depression or long term anxiety in you. And we live in a in a on a planet that is desperately lonely right now. So this affects everybody. And so I'm just really excited. I appreciate the opportunity so much. I believe in the work realize does, I was on the board for four years. It's an incredible organization.
Great organization.
Yeah. And not a lot of people know it. So I'm hoping this podcast will shine a light on realized as well.
That's fantastic. And so do you have like you're writing it and producing it, not just the host? So do you have a team or is it just you?
It's kind of just me, but we of course, have a team? We have an editor, obviously. But I'm writing and it's giving me kind of carte blanche.
Okay. So you're researching it and doing the research, and all of that. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Shaun, for being
so nice to see you. And thank you for such great questions. Sorry, I cried earlier.
No, no, no cry away. Please.
Take care.
Okay, see you later. Thank you, James.
That's it for us this month. Thanks for tuning in. We hope you'll join us next time on pozcast. And if you have any comments or questions or ideas for new episodes, send me an email at pozcast4U@gmail.com. That's the number 4 and the letter U. Pozcast is produced by the Positive Effect, which is brought to you by REACH Nexus at the Map Center for Urban Health Solutions. The Positive Effect is a facts based lived experience movement powered by people living with HIV, and can be visited online at positiveeffect.org. Technical production is provided by David Grein, the acme podcasting company in Toronto.
