Unpacking Canada’s cruel history: lessons from a Pulitzer-winning podcast | Global Journalism Seminar with investigative journalist Connie Walker
RReuters InstituteOct 25, 2023 at 11:30 am52min
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00:13Speaker 1
Welcome to the Global journalism seminars. This is the briefing from the First Nations of Canada to the Amazonian tribes of Brazil. From the Khoisan of South Africa to the sodomy of Norway, Finland and Russia. Indigenous stories span the globe, yet a clear pattern emerges. In journalistic treatment of them. oversight and stereotypes. When we surveyed our journalists fellows 69% described reporting on Indigenous Affairs in their regions as very poor and in a pool representing 15 countries. The stereotypes were depressingly prevalent. 44% have identified suggestions of criminality and reporting on indigenous nations 38% pinpointed in situations of substance or alcohol misuse and 19% highlighted hence our low work ethic. In this seminar, we'll meet Saskatchewan Cree journalist Connie Walker, producer and host of stolen surviving St. Michael's her Pulitzer and Peabody award winning podcast tells the story of how she investigated the sexual abuse her own father sustained at a residential school in Canada will ask how Indigenous Affairs reporting has improved and what challenges remain. That's the briefing. Let's begin.
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01:38Mitali Mukherjee
Hello, and welcome to everyone who's joining from all across the world for the conversation. You've heard some of what we're going to discuss so I'm not going to go into a long preamble only to say we are absolutely delighted to have the very, very brilliant Connie Walker join us today. And for more reasons than one which is that you're up at atm which I admire and respect. Connie, thank you very much for making time for our chat. You know so much of what we're going to discuss is I hope going to unpack itself over the course of the next hour. But for those who are probably walking into this, and I'm assuming there will be some people who would like a bit more context of what we're discussing. Tell us a little bit about this podcast in the sense of what the school residential system was, and why you chose to tell the story.
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02:28Speaker 2
Sure. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. And I'm not a morning person but I did not mind at all getting up this morning to join you. So I'm thrilled that you are all making space for these conversations. I think that everything in the video really echoes my own experience in journalism in terms of the coverage of indigenous people in Canada and the US. I grew up in my on my reserve from from a small reserve in Saskatchewan called the Oakland A's First Nation. And although I have residential school survivors on both sides of my family, you know, really it really was not something that was ever talked about. It's not something that we learned about in schools, but in fact, residential schools were open for over 100 years in Canada, and there were over 100 residential schools across the country. And the goal quite simply was assimilation. The government wanted to assimilate indigenous children. So it was a deliberate policy to separate them from their parents and their families and their communities. And at the beginning, it was mandatory attendance that First Nations children standard four, five and six years old, were forced to leave, often forcibly removed with the help of the RCMP and sent to these residential schools that were funded by the government and often run by the church at the most of the residential school churches in Canada were run by the Catholic Church. And, and, and they were not allowed for many, including my father who attended in the 1960s. Many, you know, English wasn't their first language they didn't know any English at all when they arrived, but they were forbidden from speaking their language they were subjected to physical abuse. And what we've learned since the last residential school closed in 1997, was that there were horrific rates of sexual abuse as well. rampant in the schools and and the intergenerational effects of those residential schools, I think has been seen in Indigenous issues and communities for decades. But really, it's been only in recent years that we've been learning more about and connecting the dots and so when, when I had this opportunity when I learned this story about my father's abuse at a residential school. I just want I wanted to do what I could to shine a spotlight on it. Mostly I will say like, at the beginning for my life for personal reasons, because it was such a difficult and painful thing to learn about his abuse by a priest at the residential school that he attended. That made me want to know more. I will say before
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05:21Mitali Mukherjee
we go any further in this conversation and I you know, I think that's something you mark out at the start of every episode of your podcast. Some of what we're going to discuss over the next hour could be quite upsetting for someone who's listening in we are going to discuss issues of sexual abuse. We're going to discuss issues of discrimination. If you feel uncomfortable at any point, anyone who's watching or listening, please do whatever seems kindest for yourself at this point. You know, Connie, I know that your reaction after the Peabody and the Pulitzer was sort of you were quite shocked and surprised. But aside from those very richly deserved rewards, there was so much good that people had to say about this podcast, you know, you got the Dupont Columbia Award, Best podcast by The New Yorker, the Atlantic, Esquire. Did you have a sense while you were beginning to work on this project, that it would build itself up into the phenomenon that it grew to be
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06:16Speaker 2
No, in fact, I think that for a really long time, actually, at the beginning of our reporting, I wasn't even sure that it was a story. You know, I think that because I was so close to it, because this is such a personal story. I really like all of my own editorial instincts, I feel like were overshadowed by my by my personal feelings about what I was learning so so this all started really after reading a Facebook post, by my brother how and it was in the weeks after the appeal, I'll remember that there was a discovery of what's believed to be the unmarked graves of children at a residential school in British Columbia at the Kamloops Indian residential school. And that discovery made national and international news but what was so significant about it was that it seemed like it was one of the first times that for survivors they felt safe enough to come forward and start speaking about their experiences because many of them had tried, you know, speaking out about what they experienced a residential school and seeking accountability and before in and they were often not believed to see how they were, you know, there there was, I think so much hostility towards survivors for so many years but after Kamloops, they started coming forward and and that is when my brother showed the story of my father and how when my father was in the RCMP and then I can 70s in Saskatchewan, he pulled over a vehicle and realized that it was the priest who had abused him when he was a child at residential school. And I had not heard that story. And my father told my brother that he you know, he beat up this priest on the side of the road that night, and that he expected to get into trouble and but nothing ever happened. And he never told him who the priest was, or anything else about him. And it just became this kind of story that that, you know, some people in my family knew, but I had never heard it, but when I learned that it really kind of like helped me understand things about my dad, because like many survivors, you know, I think that that, you know, he went through obviously, like horrific abuse at that school, but that that that abuse plagued him for many years, even after he left and I, I, I have done reporting on residential schools, but I, you know, at the start of this story, I didn't even know which school my dad went to or for how long or anything about his experience there. And so at the very beginning, I think that for me, it was really just like, you know, a personal quest to the daughter trying to make sense of, of her father in and I really relied on my team to help like, kind of, you know, I shaped the editorial I remember coming back and I was like, from my gross reporting triplet these interviews with my some of my relatives because my father passed away so I was interviewing his brothers and sisters who also all went to St. Michael's residential school. And I was like, I'm really interested in this you know, two hour interview with my auntie Margaret, but are you guys like this and all interesting to you. And like I had really it was hard to have a sense of whether or not it was even a story honestly.
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09:45Mitali Mukherjee
I can assure you it was well I mean, interesting is one word but many many other emotions when one is listening to it, um, you know, you will also sort of recognized for your work by the Assembly of First Nations and I found such a beautiful quote when they were applauding your work saying, storytelling is medicine for us as First Nations people and Connie has dedicated many years to telling us stories in a good way. And that's the thing you've been doing investigative work around indigenous people for a long time now, was it a natural draw for you as growing up? Did you see this, as you know, almost like, this was the path you were meant to take as a journalist and these these are the stories that you were meant to tell.
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10:30Speaker 2
You know, I would say that like, yes or no, like, honestly, like, I think that I had thought about journalism. And the first time I thought about being a journalist, I think those in high school and it was, it was when a young First Nations woman who grew up like unreserve, not far from where I grew up, was killed in in Regina, Saskatchewan. And there were two white men who were on trial for her death. And I remember like, I wasn't a kid who paid attention to the news, but I remember the headlines around Pamela George, because the the news paper articles called her a quote unquote prostitutes and didn't say much else about her life, and I you know, so much of the coverage was focused on on the two white men who were charged and they were, you know, I knew so much they were university students. They came from middle class families. One of their dads was a professor. One of them was a basketball star. The other was a hockey standout and Pamela and the way that she was talked about in the media it was so dehumanizing. And I didn't have like the words to understand it, or I am sure I wasn't processing it in the moment, but I knew what what I felt. I knew that what they were saying about Pamela, they could say about me, they could say about my mom, they could say about my sisters, my Auntie's, and that this was an indication of how we reviewed and that was the first time I thought about, like, what it would mean to be a journalist and if there were any journalists, indigenous journalists in newsrooms, but then I also remember feeling like when it was time to apply for university and there was a Journalism School at the University of Regina. I felt like that wasn't a place for me. I felt like that. That's not an option for some, like, I just didn't feel like that was an option for me. And so I didn't apply and it really was like a few years later, that I got connected with, like an indigenous communications program and the college that I was going to the kind of started my career in journalism, and that year, I became an intern at CDC. And I never I never looked back. And then throughout my early career at CDC, because I was at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for 20 years. You know, I definitely was always interested in telling stories. From our communities. But I also remember early on kind of shying away from it because I felt like I would be pigeonholed and that the people who focused on our stories were, were not considered like real journalists like we you know, we were considered advocates or, you know, more than more than journalists and, and then the other truth is that like, for so many of my years, at CBC in so many of my early years in journalism, there really was very little opportunity. I think there was this widespread belief that our stories weren't important, and that Canadians didn't care about them. And, you know, I put stories and I remember, you know, my, one of my senior producers like, just kind of stopping me and saying, This isn't another poor Indian story is it like you know, I think those kinds of attitudes prevailed in journalism for a really long time. And so it wasn't until I much later like when I had then years of experience and honestly like more ability to show and prove why this was important and then to, like, have the proof be in in the impact, you know, like, that was when things started changing once we can move to digital media, and we could actually show like, Hey, this is how many times a story was clicked on about an indigenous issue, and this is how many times it was shared on social media, and this is how many downloads we've gotten for this podcasts. Then it was like, oh, there, oh, there is an interest. There is an audience there is an interest and, and that was, you know, my experience at least and I suspect that that's not unique. What was
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14:41Mitali Mukherjee
what would you say you found the most discomforting in the newsroom as a journalist of indigenous heritage, Connie, because I'm sure there are people watching from very different parts of the world but very similar experiences, as you said, What did you find the most discomforting in the newsroom and then to have journeyed from there to actually setting up CBC Aboriginal? That that's, that's a difficult path to have traversed, I'm sure.
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15:08Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I mean, I think that I think that, like the racism that exists in society is is like exists in newsrooms, right, like, and I think that so much of it is at least around in my experience was around this like, like the loads of stereotypes and these, that that was something that that those attitudes were held by editors were held by senior producers in newsrooms, people who assignment editors, people who get to decide something like I remember when I first started CBC Aboriginal It was after this documentary series that we did called eight fire, which was meant to be like this, you know, one of the biggest projects I've ever worked on that was focused on indigenous issues and was very much supposed to be, you know, a conversation around reconciliation, following the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Canada. And it was the first time I think that you know, for indigenous people that we saw ourselves on, on primetime television, in ways that were not, you know, completely terrible news stories that were told The integral part of our entire series and really made sense for somebody, you know, local to be doing that. So another indigenous person who also has that lived experience that she was bringing to those interviews. And I think I worry that that's that's not like clearly not a sustainable thing for for for journalists and, and, you know, I think that like all investigative journalism you know, it's it's often the most expensive thing. It's often the thing that that you know, is difficult for smaller organizations or freelance or smaller teams to do, but it's vital in terms of journalism. And I think like this decline I think in podcasting is something that I'm adding to my concerns around the future of journalism and just the what that's going to mean if it continues to shrink, and if we're not able to find ways to sustain it, support it. Yep.
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17:25Mitali Mukherjee
And there's also the issue of protection and it comes in two ways. So let me deal with them separately. Perhaps the first is maybe easier, which is external. You know, there was one interview where the person and I don't want to reveal too much for people who haven't heard it. The person says, when they heard the school was burning, it went quiet, and then one person started clapping and then everyone started clapping. What were the dangers or challenges that you had to navigate having put this piece out out in the world where you're dealing with representatives of the church, you talk about religion, you're talking about the ravages of colonization? Did you have to really kind of put up a lot of walls to protect yourself from external hate or aggression?
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18:14Speaker 2
I think I mean, like, No, I would say like, I mean, I feel like are like I think that I have been somehow and I should think about why this is like, like, knock on wood. I've been able to really somehow escape a lot of what other indigenous journalists have faced and I think like, I see I see some of the like, terrible racism that that people have experienced through social media, once their stories are out and the kinds of emails they get, and it's it's horrifying. I feel like maybe it's because of podcasting. Maybe it's because of the kind of nature of the story that we do. It's like, I luckily haven't experienced very, very much about it. It's been a very warm, I think reception from our audience, online and on social media. I think for me, the biggest the biggest concern and worry was that I was telling such a personal story and so many of the people in the story at least at the beginning, like it starts out very much the podcast is my journey to learn about my Dad's experience at this residential school and, and in order to learn about that I interview my aunts and uncles who siblings you know, all of them who went to St. Michael's around six years of age, not speaking any English. And I think I was just really concerned about my family, my family's reaction, how they were going to receive the podcast, and that was the biggest I think stress for me because I wanted to obviously I didn't want it to be a painful thing. Like I think that one of the things that the podcast has become for me is actually been this kind of waste through to healing in a way like I think, you know, I been lucky enough to spend time at the Dart center for trauma journalism at Columbia University. I was an actor fellow a few years ago. And I remember like learning about the impacts of of trauma and learning about PTSD, specifically, and how to try to be more trauma informed in our reporting, but also how to try to practice self care when taking on these stories. And one of the things that was surprising about that, that education for me, it was kind of revelatory, honestly. I'll admit was that like, that telling your story in a way where you're treated with respect and that you have agency and that you're given the space to do so in a meaningful way, can be a healing thing for people who have experienced trauma. And that's what I feel like this podcast has been for me personally, you know, I obviously had so much support from my team, that I was the you know, managing editor of, of stolen I'm now the executive producer. And so I think that this this has been like a really positive experience. And I wanted for me personally, and I wanted to try to have it be similar for all of the survivors that we talked to putting those in my family.
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21:42Mitali Mukherjee
That was actually the second part of my question, which was sort of protecting yourself and protecting those who were speaking to pick, you know, you said at one point in the podcast and you address it as well saying, my own trauma was coming bubbling to the top and through so many of the conversations you can hear, you can hear the tears and you hear the weeping when people are speaking how, for someone who's even attempting to do a conversation which can be so heavy with trauma, what would you say are on good and kind and empathetic steps to take as a journalist.
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22:17Speaker 2
I think time is really honestly the biggest one like don't have an expectation that people are going to, you know, open up immediately, and you'll get what you need. And you can leave like I think that all of these all of those interviews were like, very long interviews. I think one thing that we were deliberate about as a team was was not asking for specifics about any kind of abuse or trauma, or if people were feeling like they were not comfortable talking about something we never pushed. We never asked directly about about some of that. I think also trying to like, you know, there there in those interviews, in particular about childhood trauma and about childhood abuse, like I think that we were talking and kind of bringing people back to those moments and bringing people back to maybe things that they had tried to forget or try not to think about for a really long time. And so I think that that we always tried to leave people in the present, you know, like always try to bring things back to now and and enjoy into something that I think maybe was a reminder of the resilience that they've had that that you know, they have have left that behind and are now in this other in this other place and I think always you know, continuing to check in on people like it's something that we prioritized following those interviews and then one thing that that like I said, like I think that, you know, I used to feel really, really badly, honestly about, you know, doing an interview where someone's most painful experiences were brought up because I felt like talking about it was harmful or was only going to cause them harm that being reminded of that was was like only a bad thing and a terrible thing because you can see when people are talking about it, you can see the pain on their faces up geared in their voices. Like if you're in the moment with them, like you, you know you can really begin to understand how difficult those experiences still are, even if they happened years or decades before. And the the thing that that I would say or think to myself was that you know, I'm trying to be as careful and sensitive as I can be. And that this is for a greater grid like this is so important for people to know or understand the truth about what happened in residential schools or if it was a case of of a missing or murdered indigenous woman or girl like you know that that the families was so important for them to help raise awareness about their loved one who was missing, or who's whose motor was on Sol and that there was this public interest in this story and that therefore it was worth it. And then again, through the dark center and through some of my own education around trauma informed journalism, I realized that it can be a helpful thing like if you are if you are somebody who is an empathetic listener, and you're giving space for someone to share their story in a way that they are feeling respected, and that that is not inherently a bad thing that can actually be a helpful and feeling thing. And I think that that is something that has been like now that I know that I feel that I feel like I've I've seen that consistently you know and and that was something that that I kind of witnessed, I think through through the missing and murdered finding classes that were we followed a family who had was looking for their sister closer magnets over several months, and I remember wanting to be so protective of them when the podcast came out and like you know, really limit the chatter on social media because this was their real life and this is something that they had gone through as children. And then I remember being so surprised when they engage with every tweet in every Facebook post and and thanked people for listening and, and that they were feeling this empowerment of having shared their story in a way that they felt good about. And that to me, honestly was just such a lesson and really inspiring. Yeah.
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27:06Mitali Mukherjee
In some but it's sort of echoed in what happened here at the Institute Connie ADIA former fellow project Brennan who I think is joined this conversation. Hi there, appreciate it. You're there. She has worked on a project around indigenous representation in Australia and I remember her sharing with me that I think what she found so powerful was speaking to people from indigenous communities from other parts of the world and really hearing so much of it echoed back to her. I am conscious this roomful of journalists with questions for you. So I'll ask you one more and then you know, move to them. You ask your survivors about it and I want to ask you what it means. to you as a reporter when you ask them about accountability and justice. Is that something you carry on your shoulders when you begin a project like this, that your work should lead towards accountability and justice and what does that look like to you?
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28:02Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I think that initially, it wasn't like with this story about my dad, like I heard the story of of him being abused at residential school. And it made me want to learn more about his experience and better understand, you know, how that shaped his life after he left the school and how that shaped the daddy was to me, but I remember thinking about it, like, if we were gonna do it as a story, like not being sure like, what the shape of that story is, you know, and feeling like it might be. Again, like, not interesting to people, you know, like this was, you know, I was I was concerned about that. And then one of our producers, Anya Schultz, she said, why don't we try to find the priests like, Whatever happened to that priest? Was he like, Was he ever held accountable? Was he ever charged? Where did he go after he left St. Michael's like, you know, how easy would it be to find him like, Matt, what honestly was like, maybe it's, it seems like that was an obvious thing. But at the time, I remember being like, oh my gosh, this eureka moment. Yes, absolutely. Like, like, you know, so much of the narrative and the discourse around residential schools up until that point, at least in my life had been around healing from trauma and like, how do we reconcile and what is reconciliation? And, and none of it was really focused on justice or accountability. And that is something that like having now gone through the whole podcast and then you know, you know, we we start out looking for this one priests to abuse my dad, but very early on, like we hear the names of other priests to or alleged alleged abusers. And then we decided to expand the scope of our investigation and not just look for my dad's abuser, but to try to understand how much abuse was happening at the school because what we were hearing from survivors was like, shocking, almost even as somebody who's reported on residential schools before, and what we were able to uncover is something I just had never expected in terms of the scale of the abuse like over 200 allegations. over decades of sexual abuse of children. And I think that that became the motivation and as we were doing it, I was like, This is so hard, like, the stories of survivors is so difficult, like understanding connecting the dots of my own family in terms of like, you know, how the abuse was passed through generations because the children who were abused at residential schools went home, and some of them perpetuated that abuse over and over again in families and communities and feeling the weight of that was so devastating but always like, I felt like having that quest for accountability, having that quest for wanting to understand the truth having having that motivation was was such like I needed it in the end, like it was so important for me personally to be able to get through that and then it's a thing that I'm left with him like how can it be now it's like 2022 When the podcast came out, like the last week of school quote in 1997, St. Michael's clothing 97 And it took that long for us to to take on the story. I just have so much regret that I didn't do it sooner. But I wasn't able to like, you know, look into this earlier that And now and now like that we should be doing this for every school. Like every single school there were over 100 across Canada. How many were in the United States. This this system of residential schools was replicated in countries and other countries. Around the World. Like, how like these investigations should be happening now because the window for accountability is shrinking. It's like for survivors, like my father's brother, my uncle George. We interviewed him for the podcast and he passed away before it came out like every every week, a month a year we're losing survivors and we're also the people you know, who perpetrated abuse against these children are also you know, aging and dying and although this week actually a priest and oblate priests to work in indigenous communities in Canada, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to two years in prison and I can't remember his exact age, but I believe he's in his 80s as well. So I think you know, this work is urgent and it should be continuing.
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32:30Mitali Mukherjee
Indeed. Let me switch across now to our room. Where all our fellow journalists are waiting with questions. I want to start with this one because I think you know, it's something we haven't raised before, but there's no name against it. The question about local reporters and the fact checking process, perhaps we could start with, you know, whoever's penciled in that question. I don't have a name there.
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32:57Mitali Mukherjee
Mr. Is that your question?
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32:59Speaker 3
Yeah. Thank you very much. My name is Omar Zamri from Burkina Faso. I would like to know without any local reporters did you work with on that project? And how many of them were indigenous people? And how did you manage to change all the information given? Because this was related to church? And we know that accessing to church data is sometimes very complicated. How did you manage to to get the accuracy of this problem that you fought?
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33:33Speaker 2
Yeah, that was a great, great questions. I mean, we had we had the one reporter who was local to Saskatchewan, Betty and Adam. And he is indigenous. She's gonna ask from from northern Saskatchewan, but also her own family has experience with residential schools. Her mom was a residential school survivor, and has been dealing with the legacies of residential schools and reporting on them for years, but he actually has a beautiful film called Birth of a family, which is about her family being reunited because they were all part of the 60 Scoop. So they were apprehended by child welfare authorities and adopted out into white families as part of this program. Anyway, anyway, so birth of my family is an amazing film that Betty and did as well as her work on her podcast. But you know, I think that it's absolutely like, it's so difficult. I think you're right to be able to report on on historical sexual assaults for one because especially when they are crimes against children like they are not reported often to police and as far as we were able to tell there was like, even though we were we uncovered what we did in the end, there were as far as we were able to tell never any police investigations into the sexual abuse of children at St. Michael's very, very, like very, very few police investigations in general, most of them have probably happened in the last, you know, five to 10 years actually, in terms of abuse at residential schools. And the other thing is that you know, because I think this these schools were funded by the federal government, but operated by the churches, but the Oblates, the Catholic order of priests who ran St. Michael's kept very, very detailed records, so their attendance records going back, you know, to the late 1800s Like some of the earliest students and you know, details about who was at the school and how long they were there exactly how many nights they were at the school, per month because they were that was their accounting. That's what that's how they then received their their money from the federal government. They had to submit these reports. So there's so much meticulous record keeping in terms of the archives, the Oblates have around how they ran St. Michael's, but none of it says anything about abuse, the only kind of inkling we got about, about what was happening at the school to the children there was, you know, looking in a priests folder that that had been turned over to these archives. We asked for the personnel records for the for the priests, and we were told that they're going to be sealed until 50 years after the priests staff. But we were able to look at some personal folders and then one of them I found negatives for this priests too. We had heard abused children. And there were there was a photo of boys that dressing in a locker room like in this pile of negatives, but none of that was like none of the abuse was was in the archives. And so we were hearing these stories from survivors of their abuse and we know what has been revealed to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. How widespread physical and sexual abuse was at the school, but we wanted to be able to name these alleged abusers we wanted to name as many as possible we wanted to like, you know, just just shine the biggest spotlight we could, but for legal reasons, journalistic reasons. You know, we had to make sure that we could could be comfortable with the legal risk that that is associated with naming people who have not been convicted of crimes because there was never any police investigation. And, and, and so what happened was that in the podcast, we kind of detailed as we outlined the whole the whole process, but what we were able to do was access lawsuits. So survivors started coming forward in the kind of 90s and early 2000s. With with their experiences in residential schools and suing the Canadian government and the churches for the abuse they experience and it was there were so many lawsuits that it eventually led to the residential school settlement. And we were able to access some of those those lawsuits and and that's how we were able to report what we did, which is you know, naming like any of the like, the priests and non tui name in our podcast, you know, had not just one allegation of abuse like for so many of them, it was it was multiple allegations at different schools because they sometimes looked around. And it was also like sometimes the abuses that occurred over a long period of time, but I know I hear you in terms of like the difficulty in doing this kind of reporting.
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38:32Mitali Mukherjee
The next question is from Shelby from Singapore. I think you've answered part of it, but shall we go ahead?
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38:38Speaker 4
Yeah, it's actually a follow up to your question about my podcast. I was just wondering, well, focus is very good tool, and a very powerful one, especially if you want to protect your interviewees. Are there certain points in when you're doing the interview that you feel very handicap such that perhaps with visuals, you could have told the stories even better?
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39:02Speaker 2
I worked in TV for a really long time so I I have experienced doing television interviews, and I have found the so level of intimacy you can have with a microphone alone is really incredible, honestly, like, I think that you know, you try to make people feel comfortable in front of the camera, and certainly there are many, many skilled people who were able to do it, but you know, if you've set it up a light or if you're worried about a shot, if you have a camera there like especially I found in indigenous communities like that can be a very difficult thing to kind of overcome is like, feeling like you're, you know, the cameras there or the cameras on me, and I felt it too. You know, it's kind of this imposing thing. But, but with audio that's one of the things I love about the format is that there is this intimacy because you're hearing someone's voice like it's in their in your ears like they're actually it's like in you're taking them in most like you know in your house, you're like, you know, you're doing all of these these really intimate things and it feels like this kind of this level of intensity that I have been so drawn to, I think in audio, and also just the portability and the accessibility like I think it's it's, I mean, we were talking about how expensive investigative work is in general but in terms of podcasting you know, it's I have a microphone I have a recorder I usually Oh, yeah. Like this is this is the recorder that I take and I has a mic attached to a little habit here because I was tracking downstairs. But but it's really an accessible medium. You know, you get a digital recorder, you have a microphone. There are so many programs now that make it easier to like record your own podcast and and I love I love podcasting. Not to say I wouldn't love to do more documentary work I mean, who knows what's gonna happen but
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41:09Mitali Mukherjee
yeah, you don't know where to find it send Peabody takes you. The next question is from Christina. Christina, you have to say I'm not sure which one you prefer to ask. But the floor is yours. Okay, here here you will choose.
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41:30Speaker 5
One of the questions I had was in reporting these stories, especially ones about your own family. How did you balance the making sure that you communicated the impact of trauma, especially the generational impact of trauma, and making sure that you weren't adding to sort of these stereotypes and negative stories that you've talked about wanting to counter in terms of Indigenous stories. So you have just curious how you balanced the real impact of trauma in these communities and in your own family, and making sure that you weren't sort of adding to negative perceptions or stereotypes.
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42:09Speaker 2
i That's a good question. I think that it's it's difficult to obviously but I think again, the the kind of nature of the story we were doing in terms of how in depth it was but also how like, how fulsome like, we were able to like include in terms of like the community and family, so that it's it's like not just telling story about like the sexual, like the sexual abuse of children. It's like, you know, when you're immersed in a podcast, you know, you're traveling with me and we're with my my aunties, who went to the residential school, but we're sitting outside and we're having coffee and the kids are playing in the background and we're laughing along through the tears like, it's not it's not one dimensional. I feel like it's you're able to kind of present the complexities and all the different shades of gray like it's not this black and white thing. And I also think that that like, because this was a personal story for me. And I was able to include some of my own experiences with the intergenerational trauma, that, that, that that was something that I heard from people was was impactful. You know that this is like, I'm the journalist. I'm the person that have you. Like some people have been listening to all of the seasons of my podcasts at CDC and now a gimlet and Spotify. And so, you know, for me, it was important to to share my own experiences with childhood sexual abuse. Because it was part of telling the bigger story of how the how this continues to impact families and communities. And I think I felt comfortable doing that because, again, of the, the agency that I had in the telling of this story that I knew that this was not something that was, you know, sensationalized in any way that this was something that we were taking care of, in terms of reporting on and we were trying to be as sensitive as we possibly could. But those are like those are. Think things that you're able to, like I recognize the privilege that we had and in being able to, to take some of those measures and to think about things and we have so much time and space and to have really thoughtful and meaningful conversations with our team about how we were going to undertake that and what we were going to try to put in place to ensure that that we were being responsible and sensitive and careful and that's not that's a luxury that even now I'm you know, I think has changed for me even
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45:03Mitali Mukherjee
I think some of the other questions have been answered. So I'm gonna go to Maxine who has a question about how the collaboration work with the podcast, producers, Maxine. Hi.
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45:15Speaker 6
Thank you for your podcast. I think I listened to it all in about a day and a half. It's amazing. So I'm interested in how looking the camera worked with love whether they were there from the beginning and on such a personal story, what impact they had and just how that all happened.
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45:32Speaker 2
Yeah, I was I was already working with gimlet I had joined gimlet in 2019 After I left CBC. And the first season I did with gimlet of stolen was a podcast called The search for Jermaine. And so we were looking for the next season when I heard the story about my father and decided that I wanted to take it on. And at the time, the managing director of gimlet was a was a journalist called Lydia wholegrain. And it was my first time having another person of color as an editorial leader. In, in, in my work and that was honestly a game changer because I have felt like I've often been in positions where I have to, like prove to people like why something is the story, and why it's important and why like the average American or average Canadian is going to care about something and I think like Lydia got it immediately, and was one of our biggest champions and supporters throughout the process and was also just in terms of like providing editorial, guidance and leadership just so available and it was really an incredible experience. I was really sad when when Lydia left the company, but I would say that like Yeah, it really like the entire experience was incredible. I come from like TVC public media, where I feel like we're all used to like, doing as much as we can more with less and and, you know, the budgets feel like they're shrinking every year. And it's getting harder and harder and harder to do this work. And I think I just happen to join gimlet at a time where I don't I still don't really even understand it, but like, there was just so much support. It was like what do you need to help tell your story, which was such a wild thing for me? Yeah, so I feel like I'm so honestly just so grateful to have been able to experience that and the other part of it, I think, is that we were able to like have that editorial support from senior leadership in the company. But we were also it was the first time I had worked with two other indigenous journalists on a podcast like I've never worked with another indigenous producer on any of my podcasts are in any of my stories at the CBC like that. So I think having you know, Betty and Chantal and I, like we're all have different experiences. We're all bringing our full selves to the story, and I think that just made it that much richer. And relevant.
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48:29Mitali Mukherjee
I think it's a great tee up for a final question, which has come online. And I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. It's IOD Allah to Kiva who has a question saying thanks for being so real Connie. Have you ever experienced getting tired of being a journalist? or tired? Yes, tired, or getting old on the job or kind of stuff? And what do you think should be a better option? If you had to tell these stories, Kenny, would you choose it or would you still choose to do it this way?
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49:01Speaker 2
I think I mean, absolutely. I think I think yeah, I had been tired many times. I think I think that for so long. Like I really just felt like I was hanging on by my fingernails. I was, you know, I felt like I was, you know, not feeling that fulfilled and the kinds of stories I was doing and not really sure what I wanted to do. And once I think things started changing in terms of being able to tell more stories that I really cared about and tell more stories that I was really passionate about. That's when things started changing for me. And since then, like I think I just kept kept, like, adapting I was like, Oh, we're gonna I was TV news reporter and then now I'll be working this documentary unit to work on a fire and then following that we should start this digital unit. And so then then we did that and then it was like, Oh, the network wants more of this reporting. So then I was a network reporter for a while but then I became really interested in like, I feel like I just always have been lucky to like, have other opportunities present themselves and be willing to say yes, and be willing to honestly like, like fail, like some of my early forays into hosting live radio are painful, very painful. And same with like reporting on TV. And same with broadcasting. I mean, it's I think that that so much of it is really just trying to be willing to say to say yes to the next thing, and I definitely feel like I mean, I have this feeling now where I'm like, they're letting me do it. I've just got to keep doing it for as long as I can. Like, you know, I kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop or feeling like this could go away at any minute. I don't actually think that that I have that instinct still. So I'm like I've got to do it for as long as I can. And I feel like there are more stories that I could tell and that there are more stories that should be should be told. And that to me I think is a personal a personal mission because I you know, because I care about my family. And I care about my community and I care about it. And I'm speaking of like my family back home in Saskatchewan, and this is I feel like my way of like helping or wanting to try to help.
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51:23Mitali Mukherjee
Funny it's been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for taking time out. One final question because there's so many coming in, which is what is the best way to reach out to you? I think there's a lot of people who would like to hear more from you. How should they deserve?
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51:37Speaker 2
Yeah, I am. I'm on social media way too much. I should see my screen time. And I have two phones so and like it's even it's very bad, but I'm very I'm very active on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. And those are generally honestly probably better ways to reach me than email because my email is so overwhelming. I find it difficult to keep up. And I just don't like email.
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52:03Mitali Mukherjee
You prefer to sell I can't believe that.
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52:06Speaker 2
I just I think I like to I like how quick it is and you can just respond with like a couple of words whereas email you have to be like Hello, thank you for like there's just I noticed this is terrible. It's like it just feels like so much work sometimes even respond to a single email. I have. I have issues.
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52:24Mitali Mukherjee
Don't thank you very much, Connie. It really has been such a pleasure speaking with you. So much of what you say.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you very much for having me.
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52:39Mitali Mukherjee
Yeah, we'll let you go. Now and for everyone who joined in as well. We'll be back next Wednesday. So see you then. Bye bye. Bye. Take care.
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