I am back until Wednesday. Yeah, we had a good trip. And I'll be leaving again on Wednesday for the farm. How are you?
I'm really good. I'm just I just really good, just like all morning I was like, Really, this is really happening? And I actually I've tried to get Valerie engaged, who was also part of the team. And, and she's in England somewhere living on the land. And, because of whatever the season is right now, and the work that she has to do, she kept putting me off. And so she has, and I didn't want to like just write her I wanted to tell her it's been a few years since we've seen it. We were together when Jim passed away. In the Bay area that was a while ago already. So but yeah, I'll just we'll just have to share it with her afterwards, you're going to be recording the whole call?
Yes, I'm going to record. And I have a very loose outline of things that we'll do. And I'll basically the recording will be a part of your archive. And I'll send a copy of it to everyone afterwards. That's how it's going to be used. And yeah, it's gonna be really, really easy. That's the goal. I have some structure, but you know, it's really for you two. So, yeah, I hope you really enjoy it and well.
So, so your host hostess, and your you'll give everybody that Hello and welcome and kind of set context and introduce
Yes, I will. And I'll after Joanna and I introduce ourselves, I'll just ask the two of you to introduce yourselves just for the sake of the conversation and just talk just addressing your relationship to Survival then we'll transition into you two getting the opportunity to reconnect Okay, Joanna good.
I've never used this system that's why I kind of logged in early to make sure to show everyone
I've never recorded on here so hello hello, okay, great. Everyone's here. Welcome. Can you hear me okay, good.
Definitely can't hear Seth looks like you seeking Seth, can you hear us? We're not hearing you
do you hear us Seth you hear us, okay. Let's see. If you click on settings. The first tab says Audio and then it will tell you where the sound is coming from and going out from okay,
it may be because he noticed he was wearing headphones. This might be something to do with those settings.
Probably. How are you? Joanna?
I'm alright. I also got a little bit of a scratchy throat.
Okay. Is it a cold? Or also allergies?
Um, I don't know if it's from like the AC because of the heat wave or a cold. Yeah.
I understand. Hi Seth
Okay. You hear me now?
Yes, I can hear you perfect.
Okay. Well, I don't know what I did. Oh, Oh,
yes, I thank you all so much for coming. My name is Michelle Wells. For those of you I have not met, well Seth, you're the only one I haven't met yet. I'm just going to give a brief introduction. And then I'd like us to begin. And I'll just give also an overview of what I'd like to discuss with you all today. And I'm, of course, ready to give your feedback. So I'll start off by just introducing myself and how I came to this work. In the email that I sent already, I shared that I found out about Survival in 2012. And I was really interested in the fact that the some of the actors had experience with incarceration, because I was really interested to and using theater in that way. And from there, I got introduced to individuals who had been a part of the production in California, Mark Smith, and also was introduced to Joanna and really wanted to continue to think about how to write about workshop 71, for archival purposes, so that it can be remembered, and so that the lessons learned from the work that was done, will be passed on to future generations of theatre practitioners and scholars. So that's me. And then, before I ask Joanna, to introduce herself, I just want to tell you what I'd like to do today. So after we introduce ourselves, I wanted to give the two of you, Seth and Mark the opportunity to talk to each other. And just, you know, what have you been up to in the last 45 years kind of thing. And Joanna, and I will just listen, and, you know, maybe mute ourselves and give you time to talk. And then after that, I'd like to do a bit of reflection, basically asking you, what do you remember from your work together? And asking some questions about its impact. And then for the last part, I wanted to talk about the future. And I the question I wrote down, what do you think is the role of Survival today? And what do you want people to remember about the work that you did? So that's kind of the flow of how it will go today? And if that's all right, with everyone, then oh, sorry. Also, I'm recording. I don't know, Seth, if you were here when I talked about that. But I've been working with Mark who has an archive of materials from the 1977 production. And I would like for this recording to be a part of that archive of remembering Survival. And I will also send a copy of it to everyone after today, if you want to also look at it yourselves. Okay, so with that, Joanna, would you would you like to introduce yourself?
Sure. Well, Michele and Seth I feel like I already know you quite a bit. But Hi, Mark, it's really nice to see your face. I've heard a lot about you from Michele. I reached out I got an I was connected with Michele when I was like starting in the early stages of researching about this play. And I heard that she was had been doing research about it, too. And then I was very excited to see the photos, some of the photos that you still had. And I think it's amazing that you kept that archive for so long. And took care of it. So and then yeah. And then I was trying to kind of get ahold of anyone I could who was involved and I connected with somebody who connected me. I think I actually just Googled you, Seth. And then I found I kind of somehow found through the church I think I found managed to connect with. So that's how I connected with Seth. So we've been in conversation this summer. So yeah.
Wonderful. Thank you. Mark, would you for the recording. Tell us your connection to Survival?
Yes, I'd love to first of all, I just want to say hello, Seth. I'm so emotional, I'm so happy to see you. So I met Seth before he arrived In the United States, in 1976, I heard of the play Survival through a dear friend who was the head of the theater arts department at the junior college I was going to, Jim Bertholf. And Jim had just come back from South Africa, soon after the Soweto uprisings. 1976. And he was visiting John Higgins, his friend who he went to college with and studied theatre with. And somehow they ended up seeing the production of Workshop '71 the play Survival that Seth and Themba and Fana, and so Selelo were in. And when he returned to the United States, I was the first one to meet him upon his arrival home from the airport. And the first thing he said to me is, do you want to help me produce and bring over this play called Survival from South Africa? And trusting Jim the way that I did, as a mentor I immediately said yes. And then I started asking questions. And it took us a year to bring everybody over. And there was a lot of anticipation that they would never make it out of South Africa. I'm sure Seth has more of those stories. And and then I met you and the rest of the crew with also with Peter who came as a fifth. There were four of you in the play. And I'll never forget the day you arrived at the airport. And there's actually a little short film about that. You thought when the lights came on, you were all being arrested if I remember, you didn't think you're gonna really make it here that the South African government would not allow this play to be seen elsewhere. And Jim, found a way through the college to bring you over as students. And that took a lot of finagling that took a lot of work. And I think we met with Yvonne Braithwaite Berk, and other politicians to help make that happen. And then, and David Fanning, who was running the video arts department, at the sister college came and did this documentary. And David, I don't know if you noticed that, but went on to start Frontline for PBS years later. And he was also from South Africa. And I, about three years ago, maybe if I remember Michele, I had a dream about you all. And I woke and I needed to find you, I needed to know where you were. And in that journey, I was like, well, we didn't have the internet back in those days. But now we do. So I started looking, and I couldn't find you. But I found Robert who had started Workshop '71. Right. And he was in Zimbabwe, and I found an email, he was still alive. I don't know if he still is. Good. And I sent him an email asking if he had heard of you, had any contact? And he said, No, not really. And then it got quiet. And then one day, I got an email that was copying him. And it was from Michele, who was doing her research. And from then, we've developed this incredible relationship that has led us to this very day that's put this giant smile on my face to be here with you.
Thank you so much, Mark. And Seth, we'd like to hear from you and your relationship to Survial
We were doing a play. We've been in South Africa. We've done it in Cape Town. And we're doing it in Johannesburg. And that's when these two American were well one of them was in South Africa and was living in South Africa, John Higgins. But John Higgins and James Bertholf came backstage and started talking to us about how excited they are seeing their play and they're very keen in bringing to the United States. And we said, oh, yeah, that's good. That's good. I mean, we didn't take it seriously. You know, we've had a number of offers. You know, I think one was from Edinburgh Festival, but we're not sure yet. So that was the thing. I mean, we sort of tried to, you know, we didn't expect anything from that. But a couple of weeks, maybe a month later, Rob McLaren, who was the director said, no, these guys are really interested in bringing this to United States. They played United States. And now the problem was, too, for us to get passports, you know, to get out of South Africa, which was very, very difficult. If you're a black person, it was almost impossible. You have to have all the right papers in South Africa. Well, you know, your passport, your passport, your passport, your passbook, which is your identification. And then it has to say what kind of work we're doing in order for you to get a passport. And one of the things that was not allowed, then, as a job description, you couldn't say that you're an actor, you know, so we do not recognize a separate person that you concider yourself as an actor. So we're to do some maneuvering with a first University. And then we eventually signed I don't remember what is signed in as as I still have my passport, passbook, I can look it up. But it was suddenly something else went to register something to work with for the university in order to get that fixed the passbook and then I remember even going then, to go to register because you still have to go and register. You know that you're working with the for the, for the university bets University. The passbook office is very incredulous, they didn't think, you know, because most of us were not from Johannesburg, per se. We're from Alexandria, I think the two of us were actually from Soweto, so they were fell under Johanesberg has been reduced to restriction. But we failed under sentence it was totally different. And so when we went to register, the passbook, the white lady, they said, no, no, no, no, no, these two I can take these two, these two they cannot they have to go back to Alexandria. She says, oh, no, but the rest of the need them. They said no, no, no, just go downstairs and pick another two blacks and come up with it was a lot of blacks downstairs looking for jobs. So let's just go downstairs and pick up another two blacks, you know, and then I can fix the papers for them. But these two I can't. So we have to go through all that you know when to talk to the university, and then to make sure that we're called special, you know, whatever job it was, but it was definitely not acting. And eventually that was sorted out and took about maybe six weeks or so. And then we had to get the passport and it took us a while to get the passport. But eventually we did get the passport and we still didn't believe that we're able to you know, get all that feet and we're going to the US but eventually we did. And then we left and then we arrived in Los Angeles Mark and everybody was there waiting for us. Very exciting. And it was a wonderful project, a wonderful experience, you know, giving a tour. Although it was a little tough. I think one nightstands they tend to be a little too much. I think we're doing San Diego to Seattle. It was that it reminded me of South Africa because I used to work under the Gibson ??county electrical ?? production, we used to tour the townships. So after a while it gets to you, you know, but I mean, we're, we're enjoying ourselves. We thought, you know, we're doing the message. And it was very encouraging for us and especially the response that we're getting from the people. And so we'll continue working and it was it was worthwhile. It was worthwhile. And especially when they started banning the play in South Africa. You know, that's when we thought maybe we're we are having an impact, because we didn't expect ban the play in South Africa while we're here. And it has been performed in South Africa before, you know, and we've had some skirmishes with the police here and there in South Africa, but for them to take the drastic step of banning, it was it was incredible. made, it made us aware that we're having an impact. So I'll stop at that. I don't know if you want me to continue.
Okay, well, no, thank you, that's actually really great transition, because now I want to stop talking for a bit, and give you two the opportunity to discuss whatever is on your mind. And when you feel like you're ready to transition, then I can come back in and lead us to the next phase, but maybe talk about what you've been doing the last 45 years, or whatever else is on your mind.
So Mark, I've been in theater, most of the time, I think until maybe 86 or 87. And our for different theater companies I worked with ACT, in what you call San Francisco, did a number of plays. In Berkeley, I was doing most of most of them. It was strange, though, most of the auditioning was done here in New York City. But mostly it was a place outside of New York City. You know, I'd be working in Chicago and working in Seattle, working in San Francisco all over the place. And we have some wonderful companies you know, I worked with ?? stepping on deep solar Jacob Zulu, the execs, Island legacy blockbuster, ?? and work with Berkeley. Chicago. There's another theater that we did. It's not like some forgotten the name of or did most of the touring in outside of the metro outside of New York City. And went to work in London. Also, Australia, Perth festival there twice different theatre companies. And also, we went to I remember i think it was James who arranged that we went to Cuba. You know, I remember that, you know, it was very eye opening experience for us to go to Cuba. And, you know, we had to go through Canada, it was I think that time, we're not allowed to go to Cuba straight from United States. So we had to go through Canada. And we also didn't want to post about traveling with South African what you call passport. They didn't allow South African passports in Cuba. So we had to get some special grants for us to travel to Cuba. So it was an experience, for us do go to Cuba. And so most of the time, I've been doing theater with different companies. And then I think that around 80s, mid 80s 1990s started getting a little tired of touring, you know, it was it was too much touring. And when I got a chance to come here, the church was the church and theater to come and record a theatre company here. I really, really jumped into that. Because I also performed here in 83. I did a play here for about six months called ??Poppy, long, gentle poppin?? it was also a South African play. And it was received very well. And we did a lot of touring with it went to Edinburgh festival and went to West End London for up to six months and also went to Australia. Perth festival. So when the opportunity came to come and work here with a theatre company here with the church, and as part of the theater now I originally jumped into it, because I had worked here as a theatre person, I'd seen how much they ??charge?? in the theater. I was joined together, it was an incredible situation, our university, the church that used theaters as they did here. And that was also remember, I think it was in 82 when we're performing here, we did a play, we're still doing the play ??poppin, on Ghana?? and it was Christmas Eve, one of the production and one of the performances we're doing. And they also had Christmas Eve service. So they were going to combine the children. So what they did is, they started the service, you know, short little thing, prayers, and then some few songs, and then the play starts, you know, and then at the end of the play, the service continues. So after that was, you make some ??claims?? you know, technically, I had never seen anything like that. But it was part of the process here, you know, combining the church and the theater making it one. So that's what I've been doing. So how about you, Mark?
Oh goodness Seth, you know, I do want to touch on a few things. I just, I think, you know, what we did this tour. I turned 21 with you all, we were on tour when I turned 21. I think we're in San Francisco, we may have been at ACT, because we performed there, on Geary Street. And thing that was, for me that was so incredible was aside from the fact that the five of you and myself were in this cab-over-camper truck with a U-haul trailer with all the sets and lights in it. And like you said, we did these one night stands, and but it was after the performance when we would sit with the audience and turn on the house lights. And the questions went forth. And we were educating people you were educating people about the atrocities in South Africa. And I learned so much from that as a young man that it affected the rest of my life to this very day. And I, I know, there was some very challenging moments that we had on that tour. Um, one of them was the accident where the whole truck turned upside down the trailer. And somehow we all survived that we only missed one show on the tour. So that I know that there was concern that the new driver, the new young man, I think his name was Buddy who was driving and we were coming out of Portland. And we have this terrible accident, I think because of a low tire. And you all were concerned that he maybe was on a suicide mission to kill us all. It was, you know, quite impressionable, this this time. I remember the performance, I think it was in Berkeley, also where I may have been the only white person in the theater and the lights went out during the play. And the guy who was responsible for the light system went for a coffee and we were there alone, and the audience was screaming. Soleilo was on the stage, Mark, the lights are out. And I'm like, yes. I know, I see that. I'm in charge of them and there's no power. We had these incredible experiences, I think for all of us. But the one that I've been really curious about and I've wanted to ask you about is the decisions that you made to leave your homeland and not go back. And And how was that? How difficult was that for you at that time? To make such a decision? That's that's a question I have for you.
Fana and I were the last to decide not to go back I think Selilo and Themba they immediately jumped onto that. And we're very cautious about that. It's kind of stayed that way In South Africa got freed, they were the first to to jump back to go back to South Africa. So me and Fana stayed, but with me, and finally the last, the two who wanted we're not sure. We're not sure what we wanted to do. But I think what urged us to not decide to stay here was the banning of the play in South Africa. I think that sort of influenced our decision, especially me and Fana to stay here, because I didn't, we didn't think it would be safe for us to go back to South Africa. And that made it easy for us to just decide to stay here. It was, it was tough, you know, you leaving your country, leaving your families, leaving your friends, and everything is tough to decision. And we it took us a while to adjust to to know, to adjust to the fact that we're saying I'm not going back to South Africa, to adjust to the fact that you're not going to be hearing your own languages. Again, Zulu ??suit your class?? or whatever it is, you know, as often your used to, it is. And then you start settling in here. And you start seeing, you know, speaking the language, yes. Starting getting accustomed to the way things are here. And remember, we're discussing that it stopped getting scary. When do you stop dreaming in English, not in Zulu. But that's when you realize, oh, my goodness, yeah. I'm gone now. And I've all the fears, that you have all the nightmares in your dreams, but they used to have, they're slowly dissipate, they slowly fade away, you know, because you are now in a new land, you are now facing other realities. And that took a lot of adjustment to it. I mean, the passbook for us, was a nightmare, especially for me. And so we got to keep having these nightmares. Dreaming about your passbook, dreaming about being stopped by the police, you know, so and when that's stop, you know, it was a blessing. But also it was disappointing the fact that now you're also losing your language. You know, before then there was no Internet, now there is internet. I mean, you can talk to people that can listen to your radio, Zulu, if you feel like listening in, but then you're totally cut off. Because you suddenly realize when you're talking to somebody, you're searching for a word in Zulu, which I haven't used in about six or six months or a year, and it's gone. You know, because that's what happens when you don't use the language it disappears. Slowly. I mean, not all of it. But your words, you know, that are not used, you know, this will fade away. But yeah, we did finally to settle in, settle in. We're much more comfortable. Nice.
Yeah. You know, I'm having all these memories flash back to me, because I ran the show, and I have all these light cues of different things that I remember about. There's, there's one scene where you're the waiter in the restaurant, and you're like, oh, man, you can't eat, you know, and for me, it was like impossible to really relate to that notion of a apartheid. The other memories I have are being in the truck. Because you all sing acapella. That's a big part of the play, is your singing, and your native dance and being in the truck, and sometimes it'd be rocking because you guys would all be moving and singing at the same time. And yeah, I mean, it's just I'm feeling that all flooding back in the performance and all of our journeying. And returning, you know, there was, Valerie, if you remember who helped produce, of course. And she, I believe is in England, what happened was after the play closed, and we stopped. And you guys made the decision to move on, which I think is also an interesting story, maybe we can come back to, of why those decisions were made. But Valerie went to international community group called Interaction in London. And they had a theater in the West end, and it was called the Almost Free Theatre. And one day, I got a call from her. And she said, there's, there's a job opening for a technical director for the theater. I can't promise you the job, but if you come for the interview, so I didn't know if I would get the job. And I took my 10 Speed bicycle, which I have written across the country on the year before I met you thinking, well, if I don't get a job, I'll just ride around Europe. But I didn't get the job. And so I worked in a theater there, right in the West End on Piccadilly, on Rupert Street. And we produced a number of plays that were all original plays. And it was a wonderful group, because we all got to decide on what plays to produce. And then we were all involved in the production of those. And from there, we did a, we did the Silver Jubilee, whatever, 25 year anniversary, maybe. And we did a production, a series on that. And then we did a series with a Jewish community group in London. And it was very curious for me doing these plays, because I'm Jewish, my best friend who I met at that time in London was Manfred, he's German. And you had the German and the Jew questioning about this season. And another woman who was part of our team, Tina McHugh, and Irish woman. We all worked together on a play called The Irish Hebrew lesson. And in doing that, I started to question my background. And Tina had worked on a kibbutz in Israel. And I thought, well, that's interesting. And so she hooked me up. And I went to Israel, and worked on a kibbutz, traveled in Israel. And the play The Irish Hebrew Lesson was invited to I think, Jerusalem's 30 year anniversary of its founding as part of Israel. And so I helped set up the play and run it there, and then again, in Tel Aviv.
From there, I came back to the States, I wasn't quite sure what to do with myself and I got involved in a group that was doing working with some of the first technologies that lead to these technologies that we could sit and talk like this, the first outcome was, but we were a marketing and communications firm. And we were testing some of this technology. for business purposes. It wasn't called the internet yet. wasn't called email, but we had the ability to send messages. And then Manfred, came from Germany. He was publishing travel book series, and I helped him with the graphic design on that. We did books on San Francisco, it was a very interesting book series. As a matter of fact, he's coming to visit next month. And he told me when I was telling him the story of the archive that's been put together, that his travel book series is being explored for the importance that it had at the time. And I ended up going and working with him and living in Germany and staying for five years between 1980 and 1090 so I had the same experience of losing my language. And I learned Spanish and German at the same time. And I realized when I could laugh at jokes in another language and dream in another language. Yeah, so I understand that I do. And yeah, since then I've had a number of, of journeys, we were producing film and television for, for German TV. That's how I ended up over there. Manfred had created a series that was very unique. And it was probably one of the first long format music videos that we did to the music of Miles Davis Sketches of Spain album. And we went to Sevilla, and I fell in love there and stayed there. And I thought I was going to end my life there. But as things turned out, my brother tested positive for HIV. And I came back to the United States. And Jim had been trying to introduce me to a young family of three sisters. And we didn't meet for five years. He told me about them in 1980. And right before I left for Europe, I met them in 1985. And when I came back in 1990 91, I'd landed on one of the sisters sofa as a friend. And her name is Deborah. And she and I, and her sister and my brother founded a business together. And then Deborah, and I had two daughters, Zoe, and Sofia, who are now 21 and 25, Deborah is sitting right there. We eventually got married. And because of COVID, two years ago, we shut our business down. And we moved into a geodesic dome up in Oregon. And that geodesic dome was built by an old friend who I also met through Jim. So as you can imagine, Jim has been a very important mentor and friend throughout our lives who has woven us all together. And he came to our wedding and passed away soon thereafter, from his third bout of cancer, yeah. So he had terrible cancer before he went to South Africa, and had just recovered. So he fought cancer throughout his life. That was the last journey in his gathering that we had in Northern California for him, when Valerie and I got to see each other and spend time together. And then I'm not sure what year it was. But John Higgins also passed away. And it was from Australia, his family. And I had a little bit of contact with him because he was still in the Bay Area. Forever, a theater producer and a voice coach. So yeah, so that's kind of my story. I'm here now in this beautiful place, called Sisters, Oregon, I live in the woods. And I've been writing a lot of story about what you all encouraged me back when I was in my early 20s was to do what you think was necessary in this world. And you guys made some hardy decisions, to do what you thought was necessary. And I really respect that. Again, I'm just very grateful to be here speaking with you. Reconnecting. So thank you, Michelle and Joanna.
Thank you. Yeah, I'm sad to hear but Jim, and also John Higgins. I mean, I remember googling him once, John Higgins. So he had a wonderful photos too. He had a lot of collections of photos on his website on a Facebook website. But I never connected with him. So I didn't realize that Jim was suffering from cancer. So that's, that's really sad. For both of them to have passed away.
Yeah, you know, Jim, Jim's the kind of guy that the first bout of cancer when they told him he was going to not make it. And the credit cards started in the 70s. And he went and got every credit card that he could because they weren't connected by computers like they are now. And he traveled around the world, thinking that he would pass away and he wouldn't owe anybody money. And so he had to find his way out of that hole. And curiously enough to the way Jim was,
was that Jim
yeah
That's really bizarre because that's what John Higgins did in South Africa too. That's what really scandal. He went and collected cards all over South Africa was everything then she was not, you know, internalize, you know everything. haphazard. So yeah. Yeah, they were looking for him, but he was gone by then. So they can see the same thing in South Africa.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Jim, Jim, financed this whole production of the South African theater Project that he did that on his credit cards. Yeah. Because he believed in you all so much, and the work that you've done, that you would put together. And Jim, really believed in you
Definitely when it came to South Africa, I mean, we knew, you know, he, he was going to let this be his cause for us to come over here. So yeah, he did believe in Survival, he did.
Yeah. And so and Fana is in New York as well now?
Yes. He is in New York most of the time, yes. Yeah.
Did I hear your Yes. I'd love any connection to you. Did I hear that Themba passed away? Is Themba no longer with us?
Yes. Yes. Yeah. He did. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It's still I don't know what we don't know what happened. You know. He wanted to be a detective who joined the detective, police force in post apartheid. And so there are a lot of stories about what happened. Nobody is shocked. And nobody seemed to know exactly what happened. How he got shot. It was not clear whether it was in the line of duty or what happened. It just we nobody knew exactly what happened. And so yeah, it was it was it was a sad thing for us to loose Themba he was a character, you know, what a very strong personality. But he was a nice, you know, it fitted well in the Survival what you call team. So...
Yeah, I remember Themba. And I don't know if it was his nature, or this character for the play. But I do remember him carrying most of the anger of the five of you of where you had come from. Yeah. And I did see I actually, Manfred in 1995 we we produced a film in the Bay Area called Cyber City San Francisco to talk about what was going on with all the technology there. And I somehow saw an ad for a play that Selilo was producing. And so I did get to meet him in 1995. Now, is he back in South Africa as well? Is that what I understand? And not not doing very well with his health
He is back in South Africa? I think he's but actually years ago to visit here. Even then I had the sense that he was he was pretty old. Because I think you must be 18 years older, us living and so if I'm 75 he is 86 or something not sure. So yeah, he's definitely quite old, yeah.
Yeah. Sorry about that. I do remember he was the elder of the group. And then the youngest was Peter and as a standin and Peter went back right away if I recall. He went back to South Africa. And have you heard from him?
Yes, he came here He came back here in the 80s. That's when we did the play ??poppin??. I think the wife was playing the lead ""puppet on Ghana??. So it was produced by the music theater group here. And that's when I joined them doing that play ??poppin on Ghana??. And there are two actor actors from South Africa. It was ??surfing cleaner??, and ??moms are men.?? Nonetheless, Peter's, Peter Sepuma's, wife. So they came together. Yeah, that's when I saw him, then, you know, and he wasn't doing much acting or he didn't equity didn't allow him for some strange reason to, to be performing. But they allowed the wife ??South Korea?? to do the play. So we worked with them for a while. And that's a play that we did here at church. And that we did also in London. But Peter has been involved in TV, I think, you know, on and off in South Africa. So he has made a name for himself. And he decides to go, he tries to do Survival when he went back, and unbeknownst to us, because we didn't give him permission to do that. But the police came and stopped the play anyway. So there was no point in arguing with him. So Peter is in South Africa.
You know, I do have a question for you, because it feels unresolved to me. When we stopped the production, when we stopped the tour in 1977, what I heard, or what I understood, was that the, I believe it was the black actors, actors, equity union or something, started to create an uneasiness and started to divide you as actors, as black men from South Africa, and us as producers as white people from California. And that somehow, a wedge created an uneasiness. And Jim, from what I remember, asked you all, what do you want to do? It's up to you, whatever you want to do. I'd love to hear if you recall, what what happened what what is your memory of why we stopped the tour?
I've think basically, we were not aware of what the setup was going to be in as far as the company here in the US was going to be the way they Jim and John had approached it they were creating a company and all the funds were going into that company and then gonna grow from there. But they had to pay some debt and everything. And really it was stressful in one of them, things that contributed to the stress is the fact that we were doing the one night tours No, it was very after a while, it got very uncomfortable. Especially when you don't have the privacy because you're heading to people's homes. You're going to when you finish I mean we're not going to hotels, you know we're going to you know whatever the audience was there for us in order to bring stay with me. And it didn't it didn't feel like it was well organized in that sense. And the fact also that there was a lot of let's do the play, irrespective of where we're doing it. I mean, if you're doing it in a gymnasium, it's not exactly it's funny, like, we're, we're not doing here anymore. We're just doing the message. You know, I think for us, theater was the main thing, we still wanted to be seen as theater people, we still wanted to be seen performing in the right space, right lights, and everything. And slowly, it was, that was being chipped away, because we've been led to perform wherever the space is available. And so all those little things. And the equity came back later, you know, because one of the person who was ??execs in kaios,?? South African was here, you know, they felt that we were not getting what we're supposed to get as actors. For sure, when we wanted to come under equity, they denied us, which is, which is why they've been angered, maybe Jim made it for us to come through, but they didn't want us to come through as they said, they could get other black actors, and so on Jim, gone bypassed them and went to the congresswoman and he got us the h1 visas. You know, there was that little anger from when the union, you know, that that had been done. And so eventually, it came, you know, with Zakes and other people saying, No, this should not be happening, this should not be happening. And it slowly began to erode the trust among the actors and James Bertholf, you know, and because of all these little things, you know, where we're performing a one night stand, where we're sleeping, the traveling, having the fact that the whole thing was like, a project. All the manuals, we were creating a company, I mean, it was a whole elaborate thing that we didn't feel that was explained to us, when we left South Africa, we didn't know what it was, we thought we're just going to get employed. And, you know, good getting paid, we didn't know that we're going to be forming a company, per se. funds coming in. We'll be going to this company, until pays us back that. And then eventually, we know we were gonna get whatever it is that we're supposed to get. So those are the things that really made it difficult for most of the members. To to stay with James Bertholf actually want them to connect you out, remember? Sure.
No, please. I was just gonna say it's sounds familiar to me, when you have some really important message that he wants to get across using theatre, but also, you need to make sure that you have what you need to sustain a lifestyle and have the professional things that come with that come with doing the work. And oftentimes, when you're doing work that people feel is really urgent and important. Sometimes the organization of that work isn't is set compromised, because they want to do it so urgently. So that's what I'm hearing you describe that they believe the message was important and wanted to help but it wasn't happening in a way that was sustainable for the long run, which I think happens often in theater at least from my experience
Yes, I'm gonna, I mean it's not it's not a unique expression. It happens everywhere. You know, I remember will be going to, somebody will say okay, want to come and sing a song we were a group of South African and just us thrown in a place, mindset, mess, everything, you know, not, don't worry about me, I just want to hear your voice. But that's not the point of the whole thing has to be professional. And you get that a lot, you know, people say no, don't worry about that, you know, it's what you have to say, no, that's not the point. You know, yeah, we can get it a lot, you know, during the struggle, you know, people wanted to compromise and, and do whatever it is that we're trying to do, irrespective of how, you know, how bad it looks up bad. The sound was. But yeah, there's a lot of that happening in this event.
So, Michelle, in Joanna, what what's on your mind after this journey we've you on?
Yeah Joanna actually, I want to let you reflect. If you have questions that you want to ask or anything on your mind. Go ahead.
I mean, it's really nice to hear you both talk. I've spoken I've spoken more with Seth. So I know that side, but then there's new stuff coming out in the conversation. I guess well, right now, I'm actually I'm in a kind of summer school about the Black Arts Movement, and the Black Power movement. And I'm realizing like so many of the people there, they talk about Woody King, who I know as part of putting the show on Survival on the East Coast. And it's clear that at that time, there was like, such a strong growing awareness of South Africa, in the US and about the anti apartheid movement. And I've always been like something I'm always curious about this show, is like and it we've spoken a little bit about this Seth already, but like, how it like how those different kind of politics that was happening here and the anti apartheid movement that was coming through the arts to the US how it was like, how much connection there was, and how much dissonance there was, and like, for either of you, I guess so. Yeah. So um, I'm sorry it's a little bit of a kind of more philosophical question, but it's something I have been thinking about a lot.
I'll just say that it feels to be when I think about the 80s in the work that we did, by presenting Survival and all the crazy places that we played from all the types of theaters, to gymnasiums that, you know, soon thereafter, we had Paul Simon bringing Ladysmith Black Mombazo with the Graceland tour. We had the divestitures of the UC campuses. It felt like, we made an impression. It felt important, it felt worthy. It was hard, but it felt like it was the right thing that we did the right thing. So that's kind of what, what I might share from that.
Yeah, definitely questions and answer to the performances, among those, to me were very important. And those too were very pertinent in a way that people didn't know much about South Africa. You know, people were totally clueless about what was happening in South Africa. And when we started telling our stories, and people wouldn't believe, you know, what is happening. And it was, that, to me, was the most satisfying part of the project. It's talking to the audience, you know, and especially when you started seeing when you go to some interviews on radios and stuff, you know, and, and these bizarre, you know, white South Africans coming on radio, saying it's all a lie, you know, you know, everybody's suffering in South Africa. It's not only not only black people, then you started to see you know that actually they, they were afraid that the truth is coming out, you know, you know, small, but it's there, it's coming out. And that was the most satisfying thing to me and talking especially to the young audiences, especially during that time, when the divesting was the really important issue, and especially of course were talking to the campuses. And that was very, very satisfying.
I want to follow up on Joanna's question. When I first saw the video that Mark shared with me, I watched it with a group of other researchers. And we were thinking about, we were wondering if your impression of the differences between South Africa and the US in terms of how black people are treated, if we were wondering if that changed over time, because in the video, it seemed as if there was a contrast between South Africa's oppressive towards black people with apartheid. And then maybe this is the US was kind of like, freedom. And you can go in the same places as white people, etc. But of course, when we were watching it, we were thinking how different really was the US as you got to be more in society? Did you see that there were similarities between how black people were treated here? Versus there? Or do you still think that there South Africa in the US were completely different with no say no comparable circumstances for black people?
Yeah, so we always got that. That impression, when we're talking to the members were black men, black audiences, you know, that they almost always wanted to correct us that things are not that different. And we almost always resisted that, too. Because inside South Africa, it was clear cut. There was nothing. There are no gray lines. You know, it was a bus is for white, period, there's nothing you don't go in there. You don't you know, it's for whites. Busses for black the train is for whites, trains for white, black. So everything was distinct was clear. And it was legal. It's not a question, somebody's going to kick you out of the bus. No, they're just gonna call the police and you're gonna get arrested. And as a charge, it's there in the books, you know. So, that to me was the clear, what you call were no gray areas. Now, you can slowly you know, do this or do that, you know, as long as you know, people agree, you know, if, for instance, I want to call a restaurant owner allows me to go and eat in a white area. Any member can just call the police and get get me arrested. You know, so, those are the clear distinctions, you know, everywhere. You know, this is where blacks are staying. This is where whites are staying. This is where Indians are staying. This is where coloreds you know, so everything was clear, distinct, you know, there are no gray areas, and here are definitely there were some problems or they are not comparible with what South Africa was going to do, then, you know, now I can say what South Africa is going through now is comparible in terms of race and other stuff is comparible what is happening in the United States, you know. Now the blacks are not dealing with with the laws per se. You know, there's a lot of racism, a lot of this lot of that, you know, but the legal part of it is gone. You're just dealing with individuals or with a society with the community killed by blacks about Indians. Now it's like that. But before then it has absolutely no. You are as a black going to school when you passbook the taxis. You know, where you live, you know, how you were not even as a black person not allowed to marry somebody outside your village, if I was in Alexandria, and I met somebody from another black township, that was not allowed, you know, restrict movements for blacks, you know, you couldn't just move, this is where the problems are got me and Salilo, when you try to register to work, you know, when the white person says, no, these blacks are not, are not in this area from this area, just go downstairs and pick up two blacks and bring them up here. That was the reality, that our movement was so restricted, you know, you couldn't really move among the blacks, you know, from one area to another black area. So, that was always what we tried to explain, you know, when people tried to sort of make it look like, it's the same, you know, definitely the same, but it was not, then I can see now it is, you know, because the laws in South Africa changed. But you can still deal with racism can deal with all the other stuff that normal society deal with.
I might add that the the place Survival, the, the way you told the stories, the way they were sung, the way they were danced, they were they were just communicated, were so potent, to describe, to share with the audience, what you had to live through. And I saw it almost every night, and I was always shocked, and just so disturbed that human humans could do that to other humans. And yeah, it's we know what's still going on here. Racism is, is a deep trauma that humanity is working through.
I remember that scene that we used to learn about the restaurant. Because in the 70s, for some strange reason, the black Americans were coming in against the powers US power, you know, who are coming to South Africa. Were no longer classified as black, they were classified as honorary white. Literally, that's what they were classified as honorary white. So it means that they can go to any restaurant, you know, as long as they produce, you know, US passport is an honorary white, you know. And it also happened to the Japanese. They also give you that status, honorary white. You know, so that you will see me and Salilo in that scene, what about those blacks? I said, no, no, those are honorary white. That was the reality of the situation in South Africa.
I have another question. And then I'll stop talking. Since we're talking about the script. I think in the play, towards the end, you all have your real names in the script. And I had a question about the strike the hunger strike. And at the end of the hunger strike, or in the middle, I suppose one of the actors gives in and eats food. And then the character of Slaksa intervenes, I think you were playing Edward Ncozy, and he says, he is needed. And he says, In the end, he says, Give him your strength, and he too, will be heroic. And I was just wondering, what is this? What do you think this means in terms of the script, and it's importance to the thinking about ending apartheid in that time?
No, it was, it was. You could sense the beginning of being radical in South Africa, that people are no longer tolerant of people who are not agreeing with the main structure, you know, liberation is going to be in our and it was slowly, you know, coming up in South Africa, you know, and I mean, the strikes, the student strikes, you know, things like that became so much part of the struggle, that if we deviated from that, you know, you you're a collaborator, you know, so that was one of the things that not diversity even then, you know, that this is a long struggle. It's not a thing that could end in three, four or five months. So if you start saying, Let's burn the schools, let's do that, you know, that doesn't help you, you know, but it became dangerous to say that it became dangerous, you know, to oppose that, you know. So that was one of the things that we're trying to show that you have to talk to people, you have to give them strength, or to make them see, you know, the end result, you know, what is going to happen. You cannot just bully them, you know, and expect that they're going, they're going to conform to whatever you say, if they don't believe it. That was part of the thing that we're trying to show with that, that scene.
I remember, I think, maybe there's a closing scene came soon thereafter. And I have the song in my head, right. We go for, we will get the good things we go for... And you exited through the audience, which was really powerful. Yeah. Seth I've never had an experience like this that I've had with you all. It was so potent.
Yeah, it was it. It was an experience for everybody. It was definitely an experience. When theater does that, you know, I really do believe when even in South Africa, you know, that to me when we performed it in South Africa. You know, that's when I felt, you know, theater was moving forward, was doing something great. You know, because I had never experienced the visceral reaction that we got from even the whites, you know, we were totally and people gasp I mean, the last line people just people hated it, or loved it, or they just are shocked, you know, that last line in the play, you know, they just couldn't get over it. Even here in New York. So, yeah, you will love it when theater does that, for when you accomplish that much.
You know, something else that we haven't really talked to, that is unusual about this play is that you all created it together through your life's experiences.
Yeah, it was kind of strange because I don't know. We got a grant, you know, from the theater in Cape Town, the theatre, Space Theatre, and there they wanted us to do a play. And they gave us believe it or not $600 600 Rand, yes, $600 dollars, then it was equal, you know, to come with a play you know, you know, budget everything and then travel 1000 miles to come and present it Cape Town, you know. So, that's what we did you know, the [log disruption in transimission] long process, you know, actually took us about maybe three, four months, you know, to get a play. For sometimes you know, during the improvisation. improvisations are very tricky. You know, they can take you wherever you you know, improvisation is taking into. Sometimes, we ended up doing different plays, that was totally not what we intended. But improvisation does that too. And I remember we did a play an improvisation, it was about prisons. And the director said this was so good, but it was totally different from what we're trying to do, you know, and eventually said, well, we can make this play stand alone by itself. And we'll call it Small Boy, you know, so that's what we did. So it was a play about a 45 minute play. [loose connection with Seth]
I had a feeling it was gonna happen.
Okay. I wanted I didn't want to cut him off. I wanted him, to let him finish. If he comes back, then we can come wrap up.
Sorry, my internet is acting up.
Okay. Maybe we should wrap up then. Sorry to cut you off Seth. I just have one more questions to ask. And then, if others have another question, we can go around. And then close out. I found an interview Seth, where the interviewor her name was ??her last name Pendlebury?? She asked. She said that there was an issue in Sketch the way or somebody wrote that white audiences are irrelevant to black theatre. And she said, What do you think? And then Ntinga, answer first, and then you gave a really interesting answer. And he said maybe Sketch was talking this point, that theatre won't change the social system we have. And I was wondering, do you still think that theatre doesn't have a role in changing social systems? Or has your opinion changed since this interview? Oh, did he freeze? Oh, maybe it's not there. Okay, can you hear me Seth?
You're running in and out?
Well, should end?
Okay, what was the question that was asked in Sketch? I could hear in bits and pieces?
Okay. It was. The question was, they said that white audiences are irrelevant to black theatre. And she asked you what do you think? And then in Ntinga, responded first, and then afterwards, you responded, and you said, maybe Sketch was talking this point, that theatre won't change the social system we have. And then you said, otherwise I don't see why they say withe audiences are irrelevant. Unless it's because they mean that people don't want to see things the way they are. And I was curious, if you if you think, how do you feel now about the relationship between theater and changing social systems?
I think it's still relevant. I mean, you still have to engage, you know, I mean, well, the difficulty really, is to get the audience to come in and see what you're doing. And that alone convincing them to change and it's very difficult even then in South Africa. You ended up preaching preaching to the converted. Limited in that way. You know, people are just going to avoid that, you know, if you're lucky enough to get them, then yeah, you're gonna be relevant And you're able to open their minds, you know, and see what is happening. But, yeah, it's, it's a difficult situation really you cannot write an audience off, you know, they can write you off. But the thing is that they can write you off simply say that, you know, but you have to keep trying, keep doing what you're doing, and try to convince people to see the relevance of what you're doing, to see the impact it has on you and your family and your community. It's part of the job, you know, you cannot abdicate from that.
Joanna, Mark will have your last words.
Yeah, no, I'm just happy to have been here for this conversation. I've got plenty to think about. So don't have any more questions.
I'm gonna say thank you, again, to you, Joanna to Michelle. Michelle, it's been three years that we've been connected now wondering if this day would happen. Seth, just I extend a huge hug to you. Please, when you see Fana, say hello from me, you've now have my email through the connection here for this event. Again, I thank you for the bold step you've made all the way across the Atlantic as young men, thank you again.
And Seth do you want to have the last word before we say goodbye?
Mark, thank you very much, you were a wonderful team member to have to work with. And it was great. driving around, it was a joy, you know, to see the hard work you were doing. Putting the stage together, doing all the lights, you know, you were a one man crew it was incredible. But I totally enjoyed working with you. And Joanna, thank you, for inviting me to this, reaching out and contacting me, and I'm to apologize to everyone. I'm very slow at responding, its my nature. It doesn't mean much. But I eventually had to respond. But I think I don't know it's one of my character flaws. Especially to you, Michelle. I'm sorry. I am also very, very pleased with what we're doing Michelle. It's very exciting. And its a wonderful job that you're doing. And I hope you have more success in doing that. And again thanks, everybody. And then if anybody needs to reach out again, I'm here. All right.
Thanks so much. Bye, everyone. I'll send the recording around. Okay. Bye bye.
