riverside_copy_of jenn slade _ apr 3, 2025 001_radical_massage the

8:01PM Apr 12, 2025

Speakers:

Krista Dicks

Keywords:

massage therapy

Structural Integration

human dissection

manual therapy

movement education

anatomy trains

fascia

chronic pain

medical school

bodywork

career flexibility

financial success

client relationships

physical medicine

therapeutic exercise

Hello, radical massage therapist, and welcome to another episode of the radical massage therapist podcast. I'm your host, Krista, registered massage therapist and clinic owner in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Lucky for you. I am not the radical massage therapist, but you are. You want to learn more about the benefits of a massage career, such as freedom, flexibility, financial success and fun, of course, inside and outside of your career. I hope these episodes will inspire you to create a really awesome life around a sustainable massage career. My guest today is Jen Slade. Jen is a manual therapist and movement educator based in northeastern North Carolina. She is a certified Structural Integration practitioner through anatomy, trains a licensed massage therapist and a certified yoga teacher. Jen holds a Master's Degree in Applied exercise science with a concentration in human movement, as well as an undergraduate degree in pre medical biochemistry. In addition to her hands on practice, she works as a laboratory teaching assistant in a human dissection lab, bringing a unique and deeply informed perspective to her work with the body. Jen is passionate about helping people move and feel better in their bodies by addressing facial health, movement patterns and structural balance. I hope you enjoy this episode with Jen Slade.

Hi, Jen, welcome to the radical massage therapist podcast.

Hi, thank you for having me.

I'm very excited to have you here. I know sometimes timing just doesn't work out. I've asked, you know in the past, and sometimes it's just not the right timing for guests, they've got busy lives, sometimes the nerves can get to them as well. So I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today.

Absolutely I'm so excited to be here and so grateful that you reached out really excited. Well,

I mean, I know that you were a little bit nervous, like I said, I get nervous before every episode as well, that I literally hope that people cancel, and I had to, like, go eat crackers before, because, like, my stomach was, like, churning. So no matter how many times I get to talk to a guest, I'm just always really excited myself to chat with such incredible practitioners and just to learn their story. And I know that yours is really inspiring as well. So your don't have to be you don't have to be nervous at all. I will take on that nervous responsibility for you. So we'll break things in just a little bit. One of the things about the podcast is that I try to share the benefits of having a massage therapy career, and we'll get into it this about about you, but I like to share the the benefits of like, the freedom that we have in the career, the flexibility, some financial success, and the fun, if you could pick one of those that's really working for you right now. Which, which one would you choose?

Oh, that's a great question. So I think what brought me to massage was honestly a wanting, wanting to understand the body. Because I've always had a long term goal of going into medical school, which I think we'll get into down the road, but I got into this because I wanted to have a career where I could be getting clinical hours and experience working with people and learning about the body while I put myself through the necessary schooling to get to the point where I could apply to med school. So I kind of found this in a different from a different path, but I now am finding the freedom that comes from my career now, like the flexibility, especially being completely self employed has given me the opportunity to travel extensively all over the world for fun, but also teaching opportunities, the ability to travel to assist and Teach in different places, and just to do the things that I love, you know, to be able to adjust my schedule as needed, to be able to do the things that bring me joy, which is, like, I just finished training for and running two marathons over the course of seven months. And like, even just having the freedom to say, Okay, I'm gonna go into work a little bit later during this time, so I can have that time to, like, get my training, and in the morning, that kind of stuff is really, really amazing, like being able to move my schedule around as needed. And so maybe the freedom is probably the biggest out of all of those. But there's been everything that you mentioned. What were the other ones you

said, so there's like, there's flexibility, yeah, there's financial success, and then there's, there can be fun from our career as well.

So much fun, like most of my best friends and the most important people in my life at this point have all started out as clients or colleagues, and sometimes both. And it's. Pretty amazing.

That's exciting. Yeah, well, thanks for for that and for, yeah, I love just hearing like, what is resonating with people. I think freedom is a really big one for me that I'm I'm learning for myself and really making that a core value as I look at the future of my own practice and what I want to do with my time, so definitely I can relate. We're gonna jump all over the place because you mentioned your marathons. I am training for my first half marathon this May. So yeah, any any tips as someone who's completed two full marathons?

Oh my gosh, there's so many things I could say. We could do a whole podcast, just a podcast, okay, but gosh, I think the biggest tips are, like, recovery and getting your fueling down properly were massive game changers for me. I mean, I could get into, like, the biomechanics and the working on your running posture and gait and like, there's so many things I could say, but the biggest game changers for me in terms of getting into more distance running were just like, understanding my body in terms of what I needed, like, when I needed to feel myself like eating a lot more carbs than I ever had in my life, which has been Pretty amazing. Love bread and yeah, just like, really prioritizing recovery, which is not something I've always been great at, but really, like, even if you don't really feel like you need it, spending the time to, like, do some foam rolling or some stretching and getting regular body work as well, especially massage was really a game changer for me, just in terms of muscle recovery and being able to feel good in my training. Yeah,

amazing. That's, that's the main goal for me, is that I do. I might not like and enjoy it, enjoy it, but I certainly don't want to be, I don't want to be injured. Yeah, I want to, I want to be present, and I do, you know, like, I don't want it to be a painful experience just to run that race. So I appreciate, yeah, the recovery and the and the fuel, the fuels. I'm not at my at my long, long runs yet, so that's going to be the next test for me. And the recovery is pretty good. I've got my my body work all lined up for until the training is completed. So I'm excited. Yeah, for that, yeah, I know. So you mentioned that you're self employed, and that's, you know, definitely a path that massage therapists and body workers can take. What was that? Right out of the gate for you, you became self employed.

Not quite so I when I got out of massage cool as far as my Structural Integration career goes, yes, I've only, only ever worked for myself, but with SI, it's kind of hard to work for somebody else, because there's only so many of us. But when I started out in body work, it was in massage, and I worked in a like a few different spas and like Wellness Centers for the first two years or so of my practice, and then kind of got pushed into starting a private practice. So I was I mentioned that I got into massage because I wanted something to help me get away from bartending so I could, like put myself through undergrad to get all my pre medical school prereqs out of the way. And so I had gone back to school to work on that degree around the same time as getting out of massage people. And so the first few years I was at community college, knocking out pre reqs, and I could afford to pay for community college while working for a clinic. And then I transferred over to the university, and I hit this spot of like, Oh, if I want to be able to pay out of pocket for my entire undergrad degree, I can't do that at a 50% commission working in the spa or a Wellness Center. And so, yeah, I started, I started my own practice at that point because I just out of necessity, I needed to be able to make more money to put myself through school. And I did, and that, yeah, has been almost seven years of working in private practice now, and after about a year into that, I moved into a slightly larger space and brought a few renters on into the space. So I do have a small clinic, and, yeah, I've been in that space for a while now, and it's awesome.

Yeah, that's that is really awesome to go, you know, from solo practitioner, and then to reckon, well, to recognize, like, the the benefit of like, having more financial freedom, just by you becoming, you know, your own, your own practice, and then getting the benefit as well of having a more, like an integrated clinic, where you have more practitioners there. So that's I love, like, that organic journey as well. That's really awesome for you. Yeah, and so you mentioned, like, one of your. Um, like your passions right now is Structural Integration. So that was the SI reference there. I immediately went to see your iliac joint. No, that's okay. So, um, so yeah, so for the Structural Integration, and you started in massage therapy. I mean, there's so many directions that that we could go. But let's just dive into how you became more passionate about Structural Integration and what that transition looked like for you from massage therapy after practicing for so long. Yeah,

that's like, okay, so it's been, where do I want to start with this? Okay, so I was drawn to Structural Integration, because I pretty quickly in my massage practice, like I said, I've always kind of come from this, like knowing I wanted to use this to help me get to medical school, and so I pretty quickly specialized in therapeutic body work. And so I did, like, the medical massage certification and a bunch of different like, more therapeutic certifications, and I hit a point in my practice where I was really specialized. I was working with people with chronic pain or acute pain, but I felt like I was like, hitting a wall, like I felt like I just had this practice where all I was doing was like, maintaining people's pain, but I was never like, really helping them move through and beyond it a whole lot, and I got really frustrated. And at the same time, I was noticing all these like patterns in people's bodies. I was noticing that that person walked with a limp, or that person's rib cage seemed a little twisted, or their pelvis felt different from side to side. I was noticing all these different structural things, and I had this feeling that, like these things had to tie into their chronic pain patterns, and I just couldn't figure out what to do about it. And so that's really what brought me to that curiosity of looking outside of the massage world and looking at what else was out there that could help me figure that stuff out. And then I found the Anatomy Trains work, and ended up going through Structural Integration school, I think I started in 2021 and graduated in 2022 through Anatomy Trains. And so, yeah, I've been practicing for a few years now, and at this point I'm completely retired from massage I don't offer massage therapy in my practice anymore. I do Structural Integration work, and then I do what I call manual therapy, which is kind of a blend of massage and then also more like therapeutic corrective exercise I tie in, which I take from my master's degree in Exercise Science and over a decade of teaching movement work. And so, yeah, I kind of like blend either, like, with my manual therapy work. I work more with, like acute pain patterns. That's more like the fix it work. And then Structural Integration is more like looking a little bit more holistically at bodies overall, how to improve movement and reduce pain from a different lens? Yeah, I think that is the whole, the whole question. I don't think I answered.

Well, that's okay. We can come back to a different version of that. That question. Sure, that's great. So have you, have you heard Structural Integration referred to as Rolfing before? Okay,

so Rolfing is a type of Structural Integration. Not all Structural Integration is Rolfing. So the that's an important thing to clear up, because I think, okay, it's been so interesting coming from a massage background into Si. Because I think a lot of people just assume that SI is just a part of, like, it's a type of massage, and it's not. It's its own thing entirely. It is totally not massaged, but it is largely hands on, not entirely so kind of like, like, if we can, like, explain what Structural Integration is, it makes it a little easier to understand. And so the founder of Structural Integration was a woman named Ida Rolf. She was a bio physicist, I believe, and she founded this thing called Structural Integration. And then her followers, over time, started calling it Rolfing, because of her name. So then the big Structural Integration schools that teach through the Rolf lineage, now, those practitioners who graduate from those programs identify as Rolfers. So that's where Rolfing came from, and because it was the original form of Structural Integration, or the original lineage, that's what the most common name is now. But there are other Structural Integration practitioners all over the world from different schools. Anatomy Trains was my school, so I'm an anatomy trained Structural Integration practitioner. But there are tons of other schools out there too. Rolfing is just the like, kind of most famous one.

Yeah, good to know, because like it, I feel like, at least here in Ontario, I see the world word Rolfing more associated. Associated with it. And so when I was kind of looking, you know, doing my little research, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I need to, like, mention, mention this, just either for clarification, so people do understand if there is a difference or what they're looking for when it comes to schooling, and how if clients have questions and they can explain those differences. You earlier mentioned, like, had that frustration when people are just coming to you to relieve pain, and, you know, kind of get them out of that pain cycle briefly, and then it just kind of like you see you the next time, and they're just kind of stuck in that cycle. And you could see these, like, compensatory, like patterns, but you didn't know what to do with it. I think a lot of us as practitioners can get in that loop and, like, also, I'm curious, is so you said it's not a lot of hands on, but some hands on. Is this a good technology? Hands on, largely, okay, yeah. Like, so would you say it's also a good one for practitioners and massage therapists if they were looking to, like, alleviate some of that, like, like, the body work that's involved with our profession to give themselves a longer career span.

Yeah, so Si, a lot of people who come into si have a massage background that brought them there. There's also a lot of people that come from like, a physiotherapy background or movement background. So that's like a very common thing to see people coming from massage into Si, like myself, but um, in terms of session time. So a lot of the work is hands on, but not everything. And so on one hand, if we're looking at career longevity, um, if you're looking like for something where you get to use your brain a little bit more and then not use your hands. I'm using my hands a lot still. Yeah, I can't say it's been I will say it's been easier on my body than massage, because it's not like I'm just once the session time starts and I'm hands on for 60 minutes or 90 minutes, or whatever that session time is with SI, we take a lot of pauses. And so every practitioner is different, but for me, I like to do assessment, and then I do a little bit of work, and then I'll have my client get back up off the table and move around, and then we reassess for change. And also, sometimes we're doing work with the client on the table. Sometimes the client is seated on a Structural Integration bench. Sometimes I do work with them as they're moving around, as they're standing. So it's also not just like this, you know, like hands on for 6090, minutes, whatever that is like, there's these pauses and breaks. It's a lot more intellectual, like, I cannot do nearly as many sessions these days as I once did when I was doing massage, I have to think really hard, just looking at bodies and thinking, Okay, if this is going on here, what could that mean elsewhere in the body, and being able to recognize patterns and shapes and saying, Okay, if the tissue looks compressed here, then what's that mean in terms of, like, I'm looking at the low back, maybe like, then what's that mean in the rib cage in the front? Or, you know, how does this this area seem like maybe it relates to this person's complaint or pain patterns? I'm constantly kind of running what I see through the lens of biomechanics and force transmission, and is looking at a body and thinking like, how can all of these parts can contribute to the whole so it's like, I think it's so fun. It's like, 3d puzzle solving, sure. So for somebody who's kind of at that point where, like, you were craving a little bit more, like mental stimulation, if you're like, one of those people who loves to be nerdy to begin with, then it could be a really, really amazing life changing next step, for sure.

Yeah. And then intellectual component, I think, is really important as we, you know, get longer in our career, we might start to and I fully take responsibility, and feel like massage therapists need to take responsibility that if you're getting bored in your career, like that's on you, and you need to change the way that you're practicing to be more stimulated. Because a lot of practitioners just sort of feel like, I this, this might be the, the only way that I can practice. And then they either leave the profession because they physically can't do it, or mentally they are getting exhausted just from that repetitive sort of what we see every day. So yeah, this is a really, really encouraging type of practice to transition into. If you're looking for more that mental stimulation, you're also, I love that you admit like it is still exhausting because at the end of the day, like you used your brain to the max to fit together like a 3d puzzle. So yeah, I certainly appreciate that. The the and the schooling as well. Okay, for one part I want to ask is like when you were in massage school, and then now you're in Structural Integration. And when you're massage school, do you go, like, do you look back and go, like, they really, they really didn't. They, like, didn't do us any favors by not, like, teaching us any of this, even, even a little bit like we do learn, like, you know, different patterns and how, like, certain things usually show up, like, in the body. And if this is tight, then typically, this is tight and, you know, like, low back pain doesn't always come from the low back like we do understand that. But do you kind of look back and go, dang, like, massage therapy school really, like, dropped the ball on on this, and it's okay, because a lot, a lot of them, they can't be everything, but, but do you feel like you look back and you go, if I'd just known, like, just a little piece of this, I could have helped more more people get further or No, yeah,

that's a really cool question. So I think first, massage therapy education in the US is not quite the same as it is up in Canada where you are, which is part of why I absolutely love getting to connect with RMTS, because you guys have it seems like a bit more of a robust foundational education than many massage programs here in the states do. Honestly, when I went to massage school, I was in my early 20s, maybe mid 20s, I it was all new to me, like, and so I felt over my head, you know, not like in an unmanageable way, but I had to work, I had to study. And it really was, it was what I could handle at that time. So I did think it was sufficient, and I did go to a good program, and I did feel prepared when I got out of school to do massage, but then it was more like over time, like learning bodies, learning patterns. Once you've done hundreds of massages and worked on hundreds of bodies, and you start to kind of get a feel for what tissue feels like, and you start to understand anatomy more. That's where I hit the point where I was like, Okay, I'm ready for more. Like, yeah, yeah. So I felt really good about my my foundational education and massage and yeah. And there are so many directions you can go, even staying within just like at not just but just as a massage therapist, versus doing some other type of training or certification that takes you out of the massage world, they're still within massage so much that you could do that's so like, there's so many different amazing ways that you can help people. The body is so cool.

Yeah, it really is. And I and that's the bottom line, yes, when you were in massage school, did it prepare you, you know, for what you needed to know to treat, you know, the public safely. That's, that's the main priority, for sure. And yeah, like, our programming does differ, but at the end of the day, like it's still overwhelming for, you know, Canadians who are taking the program as well, because we've, you know, we've never tackled that much anatomy, and essentially they call it like first year med school here, just because of how much we do. We do learn with regards to this Structural Integration programming, I mean that in itself is a big commitment. And I don't say that to scare people, but it is a big commitment if you're interested in learning about it, can you explain what what it looks like?

Yeah, so my my Structural Integration Program, I completed over the course of about 10 months, and it's like for massage school. I was living somewhere where a massage school is like, right down the road with SI school. It's not like there are a lot of SI schools around. So it's like, either you get lucky and you live close to one, or you have to travel extensively. And so for me, I live in southeastern North Carolina, and I spent 10 months commuting between here and mean, and so it was about an 18 hour drive each way, and I went up there five times total, at once in the longest the last stretch, I stayed up there for six weeks, which was really hard, just like running a practice and having a life and having dogs and like managing that with traveling so much for 10 months, I definitely took out loans to get myself through that, which highly recommend. It's a commitment, but it's so so worth it and changed my life. But So yeah, over 10 months, I went up to Maine five times, and had, like, we had to write some case studies and do some clinical work over the winter time, when we weren't, like up at class as well. So and people traveling from all over the world to do these trainings too. So I can't really complain about my 18 hour drive each way, like my parents live in New Jersey. So I was able to drop my dogs off with them and stop there, you know, for a night each way. So it worked out. But I think people. Massage therapists that I mentor, that I've spoken with, have been a little intimidated by how extensive, like, it's a lot of money, it's a lot of time, not just time commuting and being up there, but also time away from your practice. You know, if you're coming from massage background or physiotherapy background, or wherever you're coming from, it's a lot of time where you're just not working. And that is one thing with our career of like, for most of us, if you're not working, you're not making money, if you're not physically there. And so that was really challenging, but the pros outweighed the cons, and I am really so grateful I did it, and financially, it was a very uncomfortable time of my life. But yeah, worth

it. Yeah, good. And I'm glad, yeah, to hear you say, like, it was worth it. And, you know, you, seems like you worked out all of the details, but, like, beforehand, and you did, you did make it work. And it's been, it's been rewarding for you. And I think, like, I, like, we talked about at the beginning, the freedom of the career is so wonderful. Hey. Like, I don't have to ask a boss if I can take six weeks off to travel and learn a new course and do that like, five different times in 10 months. But when we're not working, we're not getting paid. So yeah, like, I appreciate you saying you took out a loan. Like, you do what you got to do to when you're really interested in something. And you know, if we just think back to, like, the schooling that we went through for massage therapy, like, what a commitment it was financially the time, the relationships that were sacrificed, all of it, like, but at the end, like, it is worth it. So, yeah, I appreciate you. You saying that is there a identify more financial benefit to doing Structural Integration, like, is that something that you feel confident that you can charge more, or does? Does that change?

That's a good question. So yes and no. On one hand, when you're a specialist in something, or you have a higher training, I feel like it makes sense to charge a little bit more. But I also feel like the community I live in, I feel like I kind of hit a ceiling where there's there's a amount, where I feel like, realistically, what can people afford? What are people going to pay? Especially when I look at the types of people I really enjoy working with, and so on one hand, this is probably my own, like, money block thing where, like, I know I'm, like, way over two to raise my rates, and I have been for a while. So yes, I tend to charge a little more than what I think any massage therapist in my community, community charges. And like I said, I should raise my rates soon. But on the flip side, I'm not, like with massage, I actually made a lot more money. And I hate to say that, but like I I feel like the more educated I get, the less money, because I get so focused on what I do. And so I'm so much more present in my sessions now that, oh my gosh, I couldn't put another like, quality session on in a day, because I would just be brain dead by the point. And so right now, like, I'm generally, like, four sessions a day is kind of where I cut it occasionally. I'll do five. But with massage, gosh, I would, I remember having days I'd see eight people. Like, there were days, especially when I was an undergrad, and just like, paying my way through that, like, gosh, there were times I'd be at the office at, like, 7am do a few massages, go to class, come back, like, go straight back to work. There were times I didn't leave the office till after nine o'clock at night, even 10 o'clock a few times like I would have these crazy, long days and I was getting tipped. And that's another thing with SI. Some practitioners accept tips. I don't not accept tips, but I don't. It's not assumed, it's not expected. So most people do not tip me now, and for me, that feels a little bit cleaner in terms of trying to align with more of a healthcare model than like a spa relaxation kind of model, like coming from the massage background. And again, I know it's different in the US and even state by state, it's different in the US. Each state regulates massage differently, but and SI is not quite on a state level, but so, yeah, so to be perfectly honest, I make less money now, but I am, like, infinitely more fulfilled. I am madly in love with what I do. There's never a day that I'm like, have to go to work, like, I genuinely like, like, lay there in bed at night and read my like, books about si stuff, like it's it's like become my life, which have a tendency to intellectualize living daylights out of the things I'm passionate about, but I'm so much more fulfilled these days, like my cup is so full, and that's been a hard part of. Trend. It's not, it's not been a smooth transition coming from massage to SI. It's I thought it would be super easy. I was like, I have this really established massage practice. I was super I was so busy, I was full. I was booked out six, eight weeks, like I had all of that making great money. And then I thought that I could easily just transition that into Si, and people would just be interested in this new thing and that I was offering. And many people were but also many, many, many people fell off. And so now I found myself in this boat of like, okay, now I need to, like, market this thing and tell people what, what this thing that I now do is, and why it's different from massage, and why you should trust me and try it, and then dealing with imposter syndrome, of like, Yeah, but I'm so new. And there are these girlfriends who have been in this work for decades, and they know all these things. And who am I? Like, who I've been doing this for a year? Or, you know, now, now it's been several years, but, and I travel quite a lot for mentorship and continuing education and my own teaching opportunities as well. But like I do seek out mentorship in this work extensively, and that's not something I did in the massage world quite as much. But yeah, so the transition from like a massage to SI, I would, I would, I would, can't say it's been easy, but I would say, like, it's so so worth it, like, what it's done for me as a person, like, it's changed my life, um, and given me so much. So, yeah, yeah, it was a little tangeny. But I love the question.

I love the tangents. So yeah, I appreciate you saying like it wasn't easy, because sometimes we might just think that the clients we have with the way that we're practicing now might Jill, they're just gonna follow us and and I think that a lot of massage therapists, you know, I speak from personal experience, we really struggle with sort of re educating our clients when we want to change how we practice. It's a very it can be very scary, because in we go from what the expectations are of the client, and that's our fault for setting them up for a 60 minute treatment with hands on for 60 minutes. None of this like get up off the table. Let me see how you're how you're moving. Now they want that hands on for 60 minutes, and that, again, that's that's on us. There's a lot of wonderful practitioners that I have spoken to on this podcast as well, who are breaking out of that, that model, and they've wonderful stories to share about how they did that. So it is wonderful to hear yours as well. So it's not easy, but then, you know, just helping to re educate, understanding that some of them are gonna fall off, you're gonna have wonderful massage therapists to refer them to. But if you're looking to fulfill like, as you said, you're trying to fill your own cup. As a practitioner, you you've gotta, like, what is it like, burn the boats, or just like, you know, like, cut the cord. You gotta, like, go cold turkey, like, all of the cliches, just to, you know, be happy with the way that that you are practicing, as well, forgetting about those client expectations. So, yeah, thank you for sharing that. It's not, not easy, but and then also maybe, like you mentioned, like with the mentorship, massage therapy, just seemed to be like, oh, like, I finished school. I'm working here. Oh, I've got clients. Wonderful. It was just like, boom, boom, boom. You just had, like, a full schedule, and just were able to maintain and do the wonderful work that you do as a massage therapist. But I think that the mentorship component, it gets really important when you do start to create more of a like a niche, and now you're looking to the structural integrators that have been in the profession for longer than you to learn. Okay, but so how did you then get the clients. How do you market? How do you share? What? How do you talk about it be like to the general public now? So that is a really encouraging, anything you wanted to add to my little rant, there I had,

like, so many little things. I was like this and this and this, and I know I'm like, it all just went out of my head, like there was something you said about, like, even training myself out of the massage headspace, of like, needing to be hands on as much as possible in session time. It's been so freeing, but also so challenging to like, let go of that old massage programming. Of like, like, it is okay if our session, if sometimes the session is only like, maybe like, ends up being 20 minutes of hands on time, and it's a 90 minute session. That's okay, you know? And for me and what I do now, where, like so much of the way that I practice si and like I mentioned earlier, like I have a master's degree in exercise science with a concentration in human movement and therapeutic exercise, so I. A lot of therapeutic exercise work in I tie a lot of anatomy education. And, like, I very much, have gone down the anatomy like rabbit hole pretty hard. So I like, I tie a bunch of education into my sessions, and I send people home with, like, exercises or homework, things to try and so it's like, coming out of that massage programming of, like, the whole time that they're here needs to be hands on. It's like, that was actually, again, another thing that I've really had to do a lot of, like brain work around, like, it's okay, you know, like they're still, like, they're they're still, my sessions are still valid, valuable and worthwhile and worth my clients time. And I'm not taking advantage by talking and them only getting, you know, not that full session worth of hands on time, because it's not just a hands on therapy, um, which has been, yeah, just the transition across the board. It's been really interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Was there anything else when you when you kind of dove to do, like, with two feet into Structural Integration? Was there anything else that you were kind of that was kind of pulling you in another, another direction? I mean, we can talk about med school, but, but was there any other type of practice that was kind of pulling

you? No, it was really just like, I hit the like, okay, so I just kind of like, I say, I just flow with things. Like, I always like, finish a big thing, and then I just kind of wait for the next thing to make itself known, which is nuts, but, and I'm kind of at the point now where I'm like, has this just been me procrastinating applying to med school for like, a decade, like, because it really was, like, undergrad was like, the big thing, get the prereqs. And then after undergrad, I finished my bachelor's, and then that's when I went to si school, and then I got out of SI school, and I went into grad school, and then I got out of grad school, and I immediately started training for a marathon the same week that I graduated from grad school. And now I'm done with the two marathons, and, like, totally gonna run more, but giving myself like my body needs a break, like I'm losing toenails. And so now I'm like, in this, like, little lull again, and I'm like, oh gosh, what's coming next? And I'm pretty sure it's, like, the med school thing, but yeah, so I can talk about that. I'd be happy to talk about dissection work a little bit, and that's a big thing.

So hold that thought for a second, because I can completely relate to having one thing and then going into the next, because I finished my BA in university in the same month I started massage school. So yes, I completely I get it, and I do appreciate you saying that, like you finish one and then you just kind of wait for the next. And yes, it's so start with, go with the dissection. We'll, we'll hold people out for the the med school stuff.

It all kind of ties back anyway. So, so I did my first dissection when I was in SI school. It was not a required part of SI school, but it was like kind of a recommended thing that you could do. And so si school started in September, and then we had Maine, so we had the winter off from being up in in the classroom. And it happened to be that that January, there was a lab that Anatomy Trains was hosting out in Colorado and Boulder, and I had tried to sign up for this lab four years in a row, and then four years in a row something had happened. This was, like, leading up to si school, something happened, like, one time we had a massive hurricane that hit where I lived, and like, everybody had to evacuate, and the whole city was like, shut down for like, a few weeks or more than that. And I was like, okay, not making the money to do this, this lab now and then another time I had a family emergency and had to spend a bunch of time in the Northeast, and then that, then COVID hit, and so, like, it had been several years of like, wanting to do a dissection, but I wanted to do it because I was terrified, because I would get these, like, I would just have these random moments where I'd be, like, doing a massage, or, like, just doing something, and I'd have this realization of, like, something I'm gonna go to med school and I'm gonna have to, like, dissect a human. And I would just get this, like, crippling anxiety. And I just, the way that I handle that stuff is like, let's just do it. Like, let's, let's just go for it. And so that's why I first was intrigued about doing dissection, actually, ironically, that was like before I even knew what Structural Integration was. But so I had been looking at these labs, and then happened to end up in SI school, and had a few friends who were in my training who were also going to go out to Colorado and do this lab that January. So I was like, Yeah, I'm going. And I was terrified. Like I was, I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna react. Like, I just know I need to be here, like, I just feel called to this for some reason, and I need to just, I need to trust it. And from the morning of day one in the lab, I was just. So in my element, like, so in love with the work and just so I felt so connected to what I was doing. And I am such a like, an esthetic learner and a tactile person. So like to see, but also to touch and to feel. And like to have that understanding of, like, actually, what is happening underneath my like, my hands when I'm working on a body. Like to know, like, actually, like understanding fiber direction, understanding like, layers in the body and the way the tissue is organized, and understanding how Fauci works, and understanding the connection of scar tissue, like through a whole system. And just to see the body in that way, changed everything for me. And from like, really, that first day in the lab, I was like, this, I want to teach this. Like, I want to be in this lab in a more, like, not just as a student. And so I asked my teacher Tom Myers of Anatomy Trains. I was like, What do I do to get in this lab? And he said, just keep showing up. And so I did every chance I could get. I just kept going out to Colorado, spending a lot of money and a lot of time, and every time I went, I just learned so much more. And I would come like, bring it home to my practice, and it would just like, change everything in terms of how I looked at the body, how I worked with the body, like my clients, but also my own body, and so deeply, like, just significant. And so eventually I was approached about getting to assist in the lab. And so now I get to lead tables. I get to lead groups of about, like, eight to 10 or so students through a full human dissection. So we get our own cadaver, and I get to lead these groups through and there's other cadavers at other tables and other instructors, and it's been the coolest, one of the most amazing honors of my professional career. To this day, it's just been amazing. And I'm so just in love with that work and but it all started because I was like, I know this is something I'm going to have to do someday in med school, and now it's turned into this thing that is a huge piece of who I am and what I do, and it's made like my understanding of the body. It's just really skyrocketed that, and that's been incredibly valuable in my career. And we get students all over, from all over the world, who come out to these labs. I've had students from almost every continent. And it's not just structural integrators. We get a lot of massage therapists. We get physios, physical therapists who get personal trainers like movement background, Yoga people, Pilates. Seen acupuncturists, and then I've seen people from like, more like Western, more traditional forms of medicine. I've had nurses. We've seen pas and doctors so really like and so many people who practice work that I've never even heard of. So it's just, even just learning about what's out there and how many modalities there are that I had never even been exposed to before. Highly, highly recommend, if for anybody who's a body worker who's curious about giving a lab a try, like a lot of people, come and they do one, and they're like, cool. I've done one. I'm good, like I saw it, like I got there's so much to get out of it. Even just one.

Highly recommend it. Yeah, it's really cool. So someone is listening that is also feeling a little bit nervous about working with a cadaver and like doing a dissection lab, what advice would you give them

if it's something that matters to you, like, if it's really something you feel called for, trust it. I don't think I remember prepping for my first lab, I thought, like, I need to know the name of everything, and I'm if I don't know, you know, all of the muscles and all of the, you know, the organs and all of the bones by name. Like, what's the point? And I'm not, like, I think I felt maybe some imposter syndrome going into it. And even I've had students in the lab say to me, like, I shouldn't even be here, you know, like, I don't know anything, compared to everybody else here. And I think, like, there is so much like, so much beyond, and so much that goes beyond, like, what the names of things are like, can you feel it? Can you see it? Like, even if you can, it's worth it. Like, if you're drawn to it, trust it. I think is the advice of just, there's so much, there's so much to gain. And worst case scenario, you get there and you walk in on the first day and you decide, maybe this isn't for me, or you're out a little bit of, like, money. But then it's you tried, and that's what not. Yes, we all you know, you never know if you don't try. So yeah, and I imagine there's

different ways that, like you said, you said, you can participate. So wherever that comfort is for you, whether it is just stepping foot in the room and like observing from a distance, maybe then you get more comfortable. You don't have to be Yeah, right, right in there, but, but there's different ways that you can participate. There are

plenty of people who don't pick a scalpel up. The whole time, and they just deserve and then also, there's a lot of really good resources online too, if somebody wanted to, kind of, like, ease their way in. So prepping for my first dissection, I watched a lot of YouTube videos from Gil Headley. He's a big name in the dissection space. He is a Rolfer. He also has, like, workshop, or, like, a lot of videos online that he he's published that are open to the public. And so I studied a lot of his dissection work online. And then Anatomy Trains offers some amazing dissection live streams. And so that's something that you would like pay to join. And they're usually, like, a Saturday, Sunday, usually, like two hours each day. And those were really helpful. And I continue to tune into those often. And it's just a way to kind of like, ease into what things are going to look like, what the terminology like, what the whole flow of the experience is going to be like. But like, from your like, you know, safely from home, you know, that's a really good way to, like, kind of test the waters, too, if you're kind of on the fence, but not quite sure, for sure.

I also love that you, you know, you admitted that when you were getting ready for, you know, your first lab. I think we've all been there when we're about to start a new course, like, or we're going to learn something new. Why do we all feel like we're all new in the room, and yet we always feel like, oh, I don't know anything. I'm going to sound stupid, but we're all we've none of us have done it before, like, why do we all get like that?

Yes, and even if you are next to somebody who has more experience, or more, like, formal education, or whatever it is, like, cool, lean into that. Like, maybe like, well, first of all, that person was, you know, where you are now, at one point, I think back all the time to like me six months ago, me a year ago, like me a few years ago, like, there's so much learning that is always taking place. And like, why do we compare ourselves to other people? It's just it's so pointless. But that's a whole nother conversation. I know

it's a whole other episode along with the whole running episode. Yeah, I get it. I get it. I feel like this is going to also really prep you for med school. How do you feel? Yes.

Yes, yeah. And that was again, like, why I was first drawn to dissection was because I was like, well, someday down the road, I'll have to do this. And yeah, now it's something that I really feel first. It'll probably look good on a transcript, like applying or on an application, applying to medical school. You know, I have this experience in this lab. But just like, my understanding of the body is so much more, even like the things that we don't really study coming from massage background, you know, like nerves and blood vessels, obviously, fascia is, like, a big piece of my work in Structural Integration. Maybe I didn't mention that, but we specialize in working with fascia, like, so it's Fauci first, kind of like, muscles aren't like the first, like, the primary focus in Structural Integration, we, in my school in Anatomy Trains, we talk about, like, zip codes of muscles. Like, we're in the QL territory. We're not necessarily, like, trying to only influence QL, you know, we're working Fauci in that area. So like that, like like to be able to study fascia. There's so many pieces of things that I've gathered from dissection work that I know will make me a better physician down the road and just a better practitioner, no matter where I go and what I do and where I'm at. But yeah, it all started. All of this started because of the med school thing. And I guess what I wasn't expecting was to fall like, madly in love with what I do now to the point where, like, the med school thing is still very much on the like. It's very much like what I plan to do. But what I plan to do with it is much, much different now than what it was when I first went to massage school. At that point, I thought I wanted to, actually. Thought I wanted to go into, like OB, GYN and like work with, like pregnancy and delivering babies. And then I thought I wanted to do, like, integrative, like internal medicine care. I always wanted to take an integrative, like, more holistic approach. But, like, I thought I wanted to, like, kind of practice more, like naturopath only, like, with a degree that I could do a little bit more with in the US. And now I'm like, I want nothing to do with babies. I mean, I love working with, like, pregnant women in my practice, because there's a lot structurally that shifts during pregnancy and afterwards. That's a super cool population to work with. But like now I'm like, so honed in on, like, Fauci informed medicine, physical medicine, like I literally want to just do what I do now with a bigger scope and, like, more knowledge behind me. And more opportunities to continue learning and growing. And I also see now that we're, no matter where I go, teaching is going to have to be a piece of that puzzle and that journey. So, yeah, so the the plan is still the goal is still the same. It's just transformed a lot, yeah,

and there's a reason why it's taken, you know, it's taken you on this journey to get to this point. So it is, it is really interesting, yeah, to hear about for sure. Yeah, and with your experience now and how it's changed, how you do want to practice as a physician, would you be able to kind of look at Western medicine, or like the role of physicians now, and maybe what they're misunderstanding about body work in general. I mean, it could be a broad question, but can you see what they're missing or what they're getting wrong about body work in general? Yeah,

oh gosh, that is a broad question. But okay, so I'll say that most people I see in my practice now, many, maybe not most, many, maybe most. I'm not sure I'd have to think about that many, many of them are also under care of a physician. So I tend to get people in my practice who they've tried the other things, like they tried massage, they tried chiropractic, they tried working with a physical therapist. Often they've seen their doctor for this, this issue that maybe they had a course of injections, they tried some medication. Like they've generally, who I work with are the population who have, like, gone through all of that, and then they find me. And so I do get to see a lot of okay, how is this condition being regarded or treated? From a traditional medical model and from the physiotherapy, physical therapy model, and so focusing more on, like, the medical side of things, it's very interesting. Like, I'm obviously, like, I'm not a physician. Like, I don't want to, like, step on toes, or, like, undermine the knowledge and expertise of somebody who has so much more education and experience than I do at this point in my life and career. But, um, very often I will say, I see people come in who have been told one thing, and I humbly disagree with the thing they've been told and can very often help that person find relief that was not being achieved working with a physician or even a traditional physical therapist, right? And obviously, like that is not always the case. Like sometimes I have people that I can't help, or sometimes they do end up going to a different practitioner, different provider, a different physician, whoever it is, and then they do get relief. And I also am very quick to not quick. I'm very honest with people if I think, Hey, I think you should go get an MRI, or I think you do need to maybe try running a course of steroids, or try getting the injection, whatever, whatever that looks like, I'll be super honest with people with that. But I do see a lot of the gaps as well, and and a lot of it comes back to Asha and just understanding the body as a whole, right? So like, you look at like, say, you go to an orthopedist, and you go to your like, shoulder specialist, your hip specialist, as a structural integrator. Like, I could never see a shoulder, just for a shoulder, without being able to look systemically at the whole body. And so it's very interesting, because I think that, like modern medicine, at least here in the US, it's so compartmentalized, but the body is anything but compartmentalized, in the sense of like, Everything relies on everything. It truly is all interconnected. And so Fauci is like that big unifier. It's like, what brings things together and connects things, and we look at a lot of chronic pain patterns and a lot of injuries, and we look at scar tissue and fossil restriction, and understanding that piece better, I think, will revolutionize the whole field of Physical Medicine. And that's something I plan to do and hope to be able to achieve in my life. So that's like, really, like, a big thing that, yeah, that moves me.

Yeah, amazing. I think that

answered that question. There's so many directions I could go with that.

Yeah, definitely. I agree that, you know, modern medicine and a physician like that, it is compartmentalized, and I understand why it sometimes has to be. I get that. But also having a physician that is more open to referring, not in replace of, but in addition to, you know, making sure that they do understand the benefits of body work in addition to what they can provide, is really important. I think the attitudes here do vary. Um, but yeah, we're not trying to replace anything, but we are definitely an add on,

a very important add on. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot absolutely, yeah, we can offer

anything else that you would like to to cover about our conversation. It's

really, really amazing to get to talk about what I do in a format where I know people who are in the body work field are gonna gonna listen, and that's just really, that's really cool to me, because I really, I loved getting to mentor massage therapists. I have quite a few people who will mentor under me, and it's just like a really cool thing, getting to to talk to an audience that maybe, maybe there's somebody out there who will, who will hear this, and who feels kind of a little stuck, or wanting to do something a little different, or take a different approach. And I am just really grateful for the opportunity to be here to talk about that a little bit. So thank you for that. Yeah, really appreciate it.

I'm very grateful that you know you took the, took the initiative to be like, You know what I'm I'm doing it because I know you were nervous, and then you're so scary. Oh, I'm going to, I'm going to do it. I'm gonna say yes, I'm gonna book it. And that's really exciting. I know that your train, like you, you yourself, decided to transition from massage to Structural Integration. I'm curious and pleased if someone is listening, then they know how it is. At least in Ontario, I feel that as a massage therapist, we can still we can be like you use Structural Integration under our scope of massage therapy. So on that aspect, it really does benefit us to because it still can be, it can still be billed as, read as registered massage therapy. I think that that is an easier transition, if I'm thinking about it for your practice, and also, you know, if people are are struggling with the financial aspect of it, like I believe, it would still be covered, because it's done by an RMT. So if there's someone out there that knows differently, then please let me know you decided to retire from massage and focus on Structural Integration. But if anybody is listening that's like, Well, I'm not really ready to let go of my license, but this technique sounds really amazing. I think they can can be, you know, you can do one and still be the other, I suppose. Yeah.

So like to, so again, going back to, like, Structural Integration is not just another type of massage therapy. It's not something that would that a massage therapist would just go do some trainings and then call themselves the Structural Integration practitioner. That's like, a little bit of an issue we see sometimes in the field that people will go do, like, an Anatomy Trains course, or, like, it doesn't like any course. And then I have personally seen people, even in my community, who say they practice, si that are not structural integrators, sure. So I think that, like, there's an important distinction there. But also, there are so many continuing education workshops out there that are taught by structural integrators that are totally open to massage therapists. So like some of our continuing education workshops, especially, maybe some of our more advanced stuff is not open to massage therapists, but a lot of it is. And so there are so many opportunities out there to, kind of like, get your your feet in that water, and kind of like, see if this is something that resonates. And like, I have a mentee, a couple mentees here who are massage therapists, who are in the community here, where I live, who we we work together, and they go to practice what we what we do, or what they learn from me. And so they are taking a structural integration approach to their massage practice. And they're not structural integrators, you know. So there's so much, it's all information and it's all about, I think it's really important to practice with integrity and like, not call yourself something that you're not, but also, like, like, you're allowed to go study and learn and apply things and try new things. And I think if somebody was interested in, like, trying to explore Structural Integration, like, if you're like, I'm not quite sure if I'm ready for this, or if I want this, finding some workshops like, I know coming from an Anatomy Trains background, we have to take before we go through the whole program. There's a course they offer called anatomy, trains and structure and function. It's like a two day workshop, I think. And they offer them all over in the US and Canada and elsewhere, as well outside of outside of this part of the world and so like that would be an amazing place to start if you just want. Have to, kind of like feel into it, and you would, you could still get so much out of that type of workshop, even if you weren't planning on going through the whole Si, like certification program. So yeah, so there's still, there's so much, there's so much out there that you can learn and apply. And yeah, absolutely it doesn't. You can absolutely, kind of like dabble, and there's so many amazing books and resources and podcasts and just teachers out there to learn from. And, yeah, that's one thing that is also so cool about coming from a massage background, is you have so much freedom to be able to explore and follow your passions and see what's interesting to you. And it just, I feel like one door just opens a million new doors. There's always so many things to learn, which is really cool. Yeah, it

really is. Well, is that a good place to wrap up? Then today? Jen, yeah, sure. Okay. Yeah, amazing. Well, thanks again for taking the time. And this was a really wonderful conversation. I know that it will resonate with a lot of the listeners. How can people, if they do want to learn more, maybe directly from you, or if they want some more information, I mean, I will put show notes, but if they want to reach out to you directly, how can they do that? Yeah,

so I am super old school and don't have a website, which is, I'm have, I have someone building me one right now, actually, but I'm on Instagram at it's at three waves bodywork. So three spelled out, three waves bodywork, and the best way to contact me is via email, which would be three waves wellness@gmail.com and eventually, I'll have a website soon. So people listening to this in the future, if you do a little Google search, maybe you can find me. But yeah, I'm based out of Wilmington, North Carolina at the moment. I also work with people on Zoom. So if you're a massage therapist and you want to connect in more of a formal setting, like a consultation or like a, like a mentorship session, we can do zoom too. And yeah, that's where I that's where I'm at, or, yeah, that's, that's generally where you'd find me if you want to reach out. And I'd love to connect. I love getting to connect, especially with massage therapists who are interested in pursuing this path, because it's something I feel really passionate about, and I'd love to talk about it. So yeah, thank you so much. Krista, this has been a really cool opportunity, and I appreciate the opportunity to push myself out of my own comfort zone and do something like this. So this is, this is really cool. Thank you so much. You