I haven't checked the weather yet, but I know it is the perfect day to chat about adult Jewish literature. I'm Sheryl Stahl. Thanks for joining me here at Nice Jewish Books. I feel like I should start with a Monty Python type transition, like a gorilla bouncing around with a sign saying "And now for something completely different," Today, I am delighted to be speaking with Mickey Dubrow about the Magic Maker. Welcome Mickey.
Thank you for having me
So one of your characters, amusingly, thinks that this book is about a Ketchup Maker. It is. It is not. Would you tell me what it is actually about?
Well, yeah, it's, you could call the Magic Maker a Jewish urban fantasy. In 1917 the Rosenfeld family are living in a tenement apartment in New York City's Lower East Side. They invite a beggar to join them for the Passover Seder. The beggar is actually a Jewish magician, and he traps him in a time bubble. The family doesn't age, but they can't lead the apartment. 100 years later, another Jewish magician, our hero, Rabbi Meyer Poppers, discovers their existence and their dilemma and tries to rescue them.
So it's set in two time periods. In 1917 is the life inside this kind of time bubble, and then in 2017 so we have two totally separate casts of character. Inside the time bubble. We have the Rosenfelds, Baruch and Rebecca and their kids, Nathan, Jacob and Sadie, and they have no idea what's going on. Everything outside the window is gray. They're not hungry or thirsty. Everything ... when they move something, it kind of resets itself and appears back on the table where it had been. And they don't age, per se, but they do mature and change. So can you talk more about what life has been like for them in in this bubble?
Yeah, yeah. As you said, they are trapped, and they don't know why they've they've been set a task, but of course, they haven't been told what the task is, and they can't believe that this happened to them. They want to know if they died. They want to know if what could have possibly happened, but they do know they can't go forward, and that they're stuck in there, and they have to find ways to survive, you know, or to not go insane. And what eventually saves them? Well, they all find their own paths, but one thing that brings them together is prayer. By praying religiously every day, it binds the family, but also keeps their faith going to be able to deal with this dilemma that they're in.
Yeah, so the the rabbi who cursed them thought that it should be pretty obvious the way out, but it was not at all obvious to them, as is evidenced by their 100 years in this bubble. So meanwhile, in 2017 there the apartment building that they'd been living in, this tenement on the Lower East Side, had been turned into the Tenement Museum, which is a real place, and I've heard all kinds of wonderful things about it, although I haven't been there yet. And one of the workers, Esther Luna, is that right? So one of the workers, Esther Luna, left work one day, and, you know, turned around and she saw a little girl in the window, and the girl waved, and she kind of automatically waved back. And then she was like, wait, no one's supposed to be in there. Building is closed. So she speaks with the someone else at the museum. They check out the room. It's one that has not yet been renovated for the museum, and it is just covered in dust, no footprints, no sign of a little girl. So sort of an amazing leap that she takes to find this Jewish magic maker to help figure out who this girl is and what's going on.
Yeah, it's the idea that she's exhausted every other logical approach to it. So the only thing she's left with is. Uh, maybe there's something supernatural going on. I don't know what else to do. You know, she's obsessed with who was this girl, who are these people? And it, it just won't leave her alone. It changes her life. She has to quit working there because she feels haunted by that little girl, and she just has to know more so. So that's why she finally, in desperation, turns to Meyer, because he seems like someone who might have an answer,
And he actually wasn't the first one that she approached. There was another one that she approached in New York who refused her and wouldn't speak with her at all, and she found Meyer in Atlanta, and had to convince him to come to New York to check this out.
Yes, there's a and it's the idea that they are. I should back up a little bit. The thing about keshef macher, when I was trying to decide what to call these sort of Jewish wizards, for lack of a better term was, I was looking at different terms, and I came across the word Kesher macher, which is really just Hebrew for magician, but the literal translation is magic maker, it would, you know why the title? And I was like, What a great way to explain who these characters are, these rabbis who perform traditional Jewish magic. So they're all Keshef machers. And of course, if you're going to have that, they're going to have Keshef macher sects, that there would be groups of them that they had different beginnings. And the group that turns down Esther is from one called the Worms. And it's from Worms Germany. And I got that because there is a Hasidic sect from Worms Germany, and apparently there was a lot going on there before they came to America. So I thought it was fun to call them the Worms, kind of, you know, kind of making fun of them, and kind of also serious. And then the, I forget what I called Meyer's group [Sheryl says "Falk" I named him after my Falk. And the reason for Falk is, Falk is my grandfather's name, Falk Dubrovsky, so it was a tribute to him. But I like the idea that they were, you know, I didn't want it to be that they were at war with each other. It was more like family that didn't get along well.
And that was another kind of underlying theme, is that it is sort of a sad fact in Judaism that the different streams and sects don't always get along as well as we could or should. So the Worms were sort of the Haredi, ultra orthodox, and the Falk were more Reconstructionist/Renewal. You kind of purposely denied putting a label on them, but that was, that's what it seemed like. They were closest, most closely aligned to the
Christian equivalent would be all denominational, everyone left over. Come on in you know, you can be part of us. We have women, we have men, we have you know, everybody in between. Wear whatever hat you want to wear, which I had a lot of fun with. But, yeah, that was the idea that they were the two extremes, and even though they were kind of didn't like each other, they were still family. And I feel like that's the thing, is we, you know, I have Orthodox relatives. I'm very Reform, but they're still family. They're still, you know, I'm still related to them. I still love them. They still love me. We may not agree on how we're supposed to do things, but it's when we take that to the extreme that it becomes a problem,
and which it did in this circumstance, I'm trying to decide, I guess I should ask you if it's too spoilery to find out more about the about the curse.
No, I think it's okay.
Okay, so, and that was okay, so let me just ask it as a question then so we find out that the curse was placed by someone in the Worms group, and then sort of forgotten about. And then once it was remembered, it was buried because they were so embarrassed about having forgotten,
And I really wanted that to be, you know, it's sort of a big reveal, and I don't mind sharing it, because you still have to go through the adventure to get there. To me, that wasn't like something that an Orthodox or anybody would do. That's what someone in a position. Power does that. When someone's a leader, they're so busy thinking about certain things that someone always gets left out, that someone always gets forgotten and tragic things happen to them, but their focus is so much on other things that they they just forget the other thing that they were doing. And he, in his concern the keshef macher, who traps the Rosenfelds, is that he felt they were assimilating too much. And I know that this was something. It was an issue when Jews were first coming to America. During that time was, you know, there was a big the question of assimilation is still being argued today, and it was a very fierce argument. So it was reflected in the story that that was the problem, was that he saw them doing things he disagreed with, and really focused on the matzah. The the box of matzah was and it and I read a story about what Manishevitz went through that for a long time. The Orthodox did not want, you know, people to use that matzah, and they had to go through a lot of hoops to convince the Jewish community that it was okay to eat the matzah.
Yeah, that was really interesting. Yeah, the rabbi was infuriated about many aspects of the Seder, the fact that the youngest child was the girl, and he was outraged that she was allowed to ask the questions, you know, which made perfect sense to her and the family: she was youngest,
and things that we take for granted now would have been considered outrageous in 1917 to certain people, not to everyone.
Yeah, so want to talk about Esther. She was not Jewish, but she'd been working at the Tenement Museum, and even though she was really actively pursuing this and wanting to find out what happened, she was also totally freaked out and quit her job and wouldn't go back into the building. So she really had this tension of, you know, wanting to figure it out, wanting to do the right thing, but also not wanting to get too close to it.
Yes, I had a lot of fun with Esther. She was and I like the the part of the inspiration for Esther was, I was there was a guy. I don't remember his name, but he is a an authority on Christianity, and he's Muslim. And there was a lot of people were like, how can you, you know, should it only be Christians who study Christians? It's like, no. When you study religion, you just kind of pick the one you find interesting. It doesn't matter what your background is. So that's why I thought it'd be nice to have sort of an outsider who has that outside perspective on the family, but I did like that. She just was like, Yeah, I don't know what's going on in there, but I am not going back in there. That was me. I if I had seen that, I wouldn't have gone back to work the next day. I would have I would have quit.
I I have no idea what I would have done. So her, I don't remember it was boyfriend or husband, but her significant other was a cook, and they were in the barrio, a Hispanic area of New York, and served, he proclaimed the best chicken. And then one day, a few of these magicians from the Worms community came in and had the chicken, took, you know, picked it apart, maybe had a nibble, and said it was horrible. He should taste it. He said, No, we make the best chicken. No, it's horrible. He's like, Look, if you don't like it, I'll refund your money. Please just leave. No, we're not leaving until you taste it. So after they went back and forth for a long time. He finally tastes it. It tastes just like normal. But he very quickly becomes violently ill. So because they couldn't get Esther to stop this investigation, they started going after the people around her. And so he becomes invested in this. So he hadn't really, he wanted to support Esther, you know, his his beloved, but he really didn't quite believe it either. But he gets caught up, and he's very soon a believer, too.
Yeah, and I have to say that that whole section where he is sick and Meyer and Camilla are rushing around New York to get the ingredients to save him, was one of my favorite parts to write one because it's action packed. There's just stuff happening one after the other, and it's kind of comical, especially at the end, when he finally is cured in a really grotesque way. But all that for me, was a lot of fun to write and and I liked having him, Gus, Gus Ramos So protective of his wife that the reason why he was really angry and didn't trust Meyer was because, because he loved his wife. And I just thought that was a you know, showed him to be a good guy who gets caught up in something bigger than himself.
And one thing that Meyer had from the beginning was when he would say that he was this magic maker, a magician, that people would say, Well, prove it. And he said, No, I can only do something to help someone, you know, I can't just show off, you know, for the sake of showing off my abilities. But when he was running around trying to gather the ingredients for the antidote, he got to do some pretty awesome showing off that. He kind of zipped the taxi cab from one place to another, and parking spots magically appeared wherever they need them. I'm sure that's every New Yorker's and every commuter's dream.
I have to make a comment about that the shortening of the way as I was doing research into Jewish magic and superstition whenever possible. I mean, there was this whole tradition of Jewish magic that's out there, that's in folk tales, it's and books and such that, you know, there's all these supposedly parts of the Talmud that you can study, that you can do all this kind of stuff. Whenever I could. I tried to put it in the book, the time bubble I made up, but the other stuff, and when I say, you know, use the real things. In other words, something that someone believes somewhere. And in Jewish tradition, the shortening of the way was in there. So I had a great time using something that supposedly exists, that there are people who believe they can do that.
So where did you find that particular piece?
There's I found it online, and I can't remember who the source was, but the most information I get is from a book called Jewish magic and superstition, a study and folk religion by Joshua Trachtenberg. And he wrote that back in the 30s, and it's kind of become the book on Jewish magic.
Yeah, and I'm not familiar with that one. I do know the other one that you mentioned by Geoff Dennis.
Yes. And that one's, it may have been Geoff Dennis's. It may have been where I found it. Those were my two sources. I mean, that's what I loved, was that it, it existed. I mean, it's like, people believe this. And that was part of what inspired me to do the story, was I wanted to do a a paranormal detective type character. And I was like, Well, why not a Jewish one, you know, the one I can relate to. And I found, you know, other than Jewish folk tales, that there were all these books that said, Yeah, we believe this stuff exists. And I was like, Well, why is that not a book? Well, is that not a character? And even with Meyer Poppers, yeah, as I mentioned in the acknowledgments, there really was a Meyer Poppers. It was a Kabbalah scholar in the 16th century by that name. And that was the thing, was, when I was trying to decide his name, I started, you know, looking up, I thought, well, let's try to find someone who's real and sort of play with the name. And when I found out there was someone named Meyer Poppers. I was like, What a weird name. I gotta use that. And the idea is that this Meyer Poppers is a descendant, of course, of the original Meyer Poppers,
Who is a descendant... according, I don't know if this was something you made up or a tradition, a descendant of Moses, who is the original magician.
I made that up. It's like, okay,
Well, it's great. It made perfect sense.
the idea that all the Keshef machers are related, that you can't you have to have. The idea is that you first have to be a descendant of Moses. And then you have to have the training. But you, if you don't have the spark, if you don't have the thing inside you, you can't do the it's like, you know, you can't make the "ch" sound unless you're Jewish. It's just something that's passed down from generation to generation, that kind of thing. That's great.
Well, I was going to ask you about your research. So besides reading the reference books, what kind of research did you have to do for this book?
I did do a lot of research on the Tenement Museum, on families that had lived there. I read a lot of folks of Jewish folk tales. I and I'm kind of lazy and then I'll do a general research, but then as I'm writing, that's usually when I run into, oh, where's that? And I'll go look it up. And unfortunately, sometimes I don't remember where I got it later. It's just, you know, okay, now I can put it into the story and keep moving. So I just read a lot of different things of that sort, and and did a lot of research. And a big inspiration too, was going to the Tenement Museum. I went there year. I've been there twice, but the first time I went there, the educator was showing us around, and someone asked about ghost. This is, do you ever see any ghosts? You know? They said, Oh, this always comes up. Someone's always asking about ghosts, and they said, I've never seen one, but someone did see a ghost, you know, dressed in 19th century clothing. And immediately I thought, What a tragic place to die. Because, you know, the whole idea when you come to America is that that tenement, that cramped, three room apartment, is where you start. And you, you know, it's like, that's your first foothold into the new world, and you build from there. So the idea that you would die on the you know, it's as bad as dying on the way over. You died at the first step, and you never got any further. And I just thought that was a tragic that being a ghost in the Tenement Museum was a tragic thing. And then it just hit me so, well, what if there was a whole family stuck upstairs? And I just went from there.
You also have a lot of humor throughout the book, so some of it are just sort of sly little things, like choosing Worms for the that. But there's also a funny thing with Meyer and the matchmaker the shadchanit, Sylvia. So they met at a Seder, and there also happened to be a young, single, young woman there that he thought he had a chance with, and she told him, No, you have the wrong shoes. It would never have worked. But she was determined that she could find someone for him, even as quirky as his work and his lifestyle was, yeah,
I love humor. I've always worked it in I can't do a straight up humor novel, but I love having as much humor in there as possible. And and the other thing about that was that I read somewhere, well, I was reading an essay about by a mystery writer, and he was saying that every detective should have a flaw that we can as a way to relate to them. And I was like, Well, what flaw should Meyer have? And I thought, well, what, what would I be able to understand really well, and it's like doing badly with women. I was like, yeah, that's his problem. He just, he wants, you know, a wife, and he is just in the wrong job. Because, you know what Jewish woman, we're very practical people. What Jewish woman is going to marry a Keshef macher?, it's like, what kind of job security is that? What kind of how often do you get a job? What does it pay? What's the insurance?
How do you explain it to your parents?
Exactly. He's gonna have a lot of trouble. And that was the thing is, it said there's his flaw is that he just is not he's gonna bomb every time.
So, and it's also a story of friendship with him and Esther Luna and Gus and Gus's sister Camille, so we see him in more social situations also. And, you know, kind of becoming more himself and being comfortable around people a little bit more.
And I like that. He's He's a young man who's still learning his craft and still learning how to be with others. He's very earnest. He's a very nice guy and and he has to earn, I mean, all the friendships he has to base ... basically earned them. Though I did have, it was very important that I had his friend who had been a Falk, but then became a Worms, Beryl, and that, you know, because also that was a way to show just because you're orthodox doesn't mean you stop being friends with your reformed friends, and these two were still as close as ever, and hung out together and that and looked out for each other, so that, that was probably the most important friendship was, was Meyer and Beryl
and a totally off tangent. I always laugh when I see the name Beryl, because my brothers used to, when we were all kids used to tease me and call me Sheryl, Beryl, until I told them, you know, that's a semi precious stone, right? You're just telling me how beautiful and precious I am. So that that stopped it, yeah. Yeah. And Beryl realized that there were problems within the Worms group. But instead of abandoning it, as Meyer wanted, you know, to say, come back to Falk, he said, No, I need to stay there and help fix it, help heal it. So I thought that was really a beautiful moment, too.
Yes, one of my beta readers wanted to know why I didn't just do stories about those two going off and having adventures. And I was like, No, it's Meyer's story. Beryl is a good helper. Beryl is a good friend, but it's, it's not the two of them. It's, it's, is Meyer, though I love the part, well, here I'm bragging about myself, but I did like the part where they go to the comic book store, because all the comics that they get are paranormal, detective stories, characters, and so they're basically reading about themselves and sort of inspiration.
That's funny, because I guess I'm not nerdy enough to have caught that.
Dr. Strange, you know, the comic book character is, is a wizard and goes on adventures. Dr. Spector is very much similar in that he has this knowledge of the occult and he's hired to solve mysteries. So they're all kind of characters like that.
That's great. I just enjoyed it because a lot of people have such stereotypes about rabbis. You know that because they love Judaism so much that that's their only interest, you know, when they have as many other quirky interests as any other person. So I caught on to that aspect of it, and didn't quite pick out the about the characters.
There's a rabbi here in town who's a black belt in karate, and that's like part of his thing is that he's the the black belt rabbi.
Yeah, I could think of a whole list. I know a rabbi who played the bagpipes and who is well known for that. And, yeah, everyone has their own thing. So is there anything that that surprised you in your research?
I don't know. I guess I was surprised at No, there wasn't. I can't think of anything. I know I'm going to think of something when this podcast is over, and I'll go, No, I remember. But no, no, I can't think of anything that particularly
Is there anything that you'd like to bring up that I haven't thought to ask about?
No, I think. No, you've done a great job.
Thanks.
I will say, Well, no, I will bring I know that one of the central things is that you know what defines a Jew? And I know that that's a central theme in the story, and it's something that Meyer and his mentor discuss and and it's just that how that question, what is a Jew has probably been around as long as Judaism has existed, and that we can only answer that for ourselves and we can't define it for anyone else. And it reminded me, when I was in Sunday school, one of my teachers told our class that Jews had to define Judaism for themselves. They had to decide what they believe and me being pretty full of myself, I said, I believe I'm the type of Jew who doesn't have to go to Sunday school. And he told me I had the concept wrong.
I don't know ... it makes sense to me! I. Are there any other projects that you're working on that you would like to talk about?
Sure, I like this character so much that I am working on a second book with him, and one thing I'm learning as I work on it is how much, how many people don't know Bible stories, very basic Bible stories, because there's reference to Bible stories in this one and this and this book, Meyer is hired by a masked wrestler, and he finds out that the wrestler is the angel who wrestled Jacob. And a lot of people when I say that, go, Jacob, Angel. I don't know who you're talking about. Wow. And I've really been surprised at how little people know those basic Bible stories. So in a way, give me a chance. But the idea is that that angel lost on purpose that He was God sent him down there to bolster Jacob's self esteem by losing the match. And it works so well that for the next 5000 years, this angel has been wrestling people and losing on purpose to bolster their morale for various reasons. And in professional wrestling that's known as a heel. He's he's the bad guy, and he's tired of being a heel, and he wants to be a good guy, and he has hired Meyer to argue his case.
I love it. Can't can't wait to read it when it comes out.
Thank you.
So what is the best way for people to get in touch with you if they would like to
my website, Mickeydubrow.com, okay,
and Mickey is m, I, C, K, E, y, d, U, b, r, O, W, All right, great. And then my last question I always like to wrap up with, if you would like to do a call for action, either based on your book or not, for tikkun olam, for repairing the world, what would it be,
rather than an organization which is always good and always of your choice? Tikun Olam, I think, can be done in small gestures and ways that you can just do small things that helps other people, even it's something like if someone cuts you off and you don't honk at them, the way of forgiving others, the way of being kind to each other, I think, is there's so much anger and Tension in the world right now. I think every little gesture of kindness, it will help repair the world at this time,
that's beautiful. Thank you for that. Well. Mickey Dubrow, thank you so much for speaking with me about the Magic Maker.
Thank you for having me. This was a real pleasure.
if you are interested in any of the books we discuss today, you can find them at your favorite board and brick or online bookstore or at your local library. Thanks to Di Yan Kee for use of his Freilich which definitely makes me happy. This podcast is a project of the Association of Jewish libraries, and you can find more about it at www.jewishlibraries.org/nice Jewish books. I would like to thank AJL and my podcast mentor, Heidi Rabinowitz, Keep listening for the promo for her latest episode.
I am Deke Moulton, author of Don't want to be your monster. And Benji Zeb is a ravenous werewolf, and I would love to dedicate this episode to Temple Beth Tefillot in Olympia, Washington, which has given me such a warm sense of community and has really helped me write my books.
Hi, this is Emi Watanabe Cohen, author of The Lost Ryu and Golem Crafters. I'll be joining you soon on the Book of Life podcast. I'd like to dedicate my episode to my grandparents, Stan and Marion Cohen, who have been the cornerstone of my Jewish identity for my whole life.
The Book of Life is the sister podcast of Nice Jewish books. I'm your host, Heidi Rabinowitz and I podcast about Jewish kidlit. Join me to hear my creature double features, series about anti semitism and the supernatural. I'll be in conversation with Deke Moulton about Don't want to be your monster, and Benji Zeb is a ravenous werewolf, and Emmy Watanabe Cohen about the Lost Ryu and Golem Crafters At bookoflifepodcast.com you.
