Radical Massage Therapist Podcast - Matt F1 240917

12:48AM Dec 2, 2024

Speakers:

Krista Dicks

Keywords:

soft tissue injury

chiropractic adjustments

massage therapists

adhesion release

injury treatment

conservative care

opioid epidemic

client education

treatment plans

niche specialization

continuous learning

service vs. solutions

pain management

professional growth

client communication

Krista, hello, radical massage therapist, and welcome to another episode of the radical massage therapist podcast. I'm your host. Krista, registered massage therapist and clinic owner in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Lucky for you. I am not the radical massage therapist, but you are. You want to learn more about the benefits of a massage career, such as freedom, flexibility, financial success and fun inside and outside your career. I hope these episodes will inspire you to create a really awesome life around a sustainable massage career. My guest today is Dr Matt Maggio. He is a soft tissue injury treatment specialist with 14 years of experience. He's also the program coordinator for adhesion release methods, where he teaches manual therapists a new injury treatment system that eliminates the frustrations of inconsistent results, all while enabling them to work 50% less. I really enjoyed my conversation with Matt, and I hope you enjoyed this episode. Hi Matt. Thanks so much for being on the podcast today.

Thanks for having me.

I'm really excited to have you here. As I've already said in your bio, you're a chiropractor. You're a licensed chiropractor, but you have never adjusted. Nope,

never, never adjusted. Not. I mean, I adjusted to get through school, but I graduated in 2011 and I've never done an adjustment in practice ever, across the board, you know, back in school, I got about halfway through school and I, you know, I was used to be like, rah, rah, chiropractic. I'm like, This is great. I was like, the head of the adjusting club. And then we were in some class, and the teacher was saying all this crazy stuff about subluxations and this. And I was like. I was like, well, doesn't the muscles and the ligaments hold the bone in place? Why don't we fix that in the first place, instead of like, continuing to put the bone back in place? And they looked at me like my head was going to explode, and said, I didn't believe in the true powers of chiropractic. I was already halfway through school, spent $100,000 went back to my room. I was like, What am I going to do? Then I got into soft tissue work and realized this is the way to go. Took every soft tissue course you can imagine, did what I need to do to pass my boards, get my doctorate. Um, but I'm all in on soft tissue. I'm actually not really liked by the chiropractors either, because I I think it's a good, like acute pain thing. But as far as fixing problems really not getting to the root cause, which is why I kind of like populate more with massage therapists and other soft tissue providers, because I just feel like it's more important than the other things. Yeah,

like you're, you know, you introduce yourself as, like, a soft tissue injury like treatment specialist. So, you know, like the title is, is brand new, and it's like not identifying as you know a chiropractor or and you also encourage massage therapists who do take your programs and learn your techniques. They the you encourage them to not identify as massage therapists. And this is classic me as well, by the way, to just like go all over the place. There should be a formula, but I apologize.

Um, yeah, it's, it's all about perceptions of reality and how people look at things. You know, I actually have a degree in psychology. I read a lot of books on, like, human nature and influence and things like that. And people like, really get typecasted, you know, like, when I say I'm a Chiro, if I say I'm a chiropractor, like, oh, some people like, that's awesome. Other people like, Oh, don't touch me. That's crazy. Or, if, like, you're a messiah, like, Oh, I'm a size or Bucha, like, Oh, I got this big knot back here. You know, you want to rub it, and it's really degrading. I always say they're talking about elevator pitches. And, like, being definitive of what you do. It's, it creates what's called an intrigue frame, where I'm, like, I'm a soft tissue injury treatment specialist, they're like, Oh, what's that? And then I'm able to go in deeper about what's going on and what I do, and it really just continues that conversation. Instead of them just being like, Oh, I already get what you do, they're like, what's that? And they want more. And you can continue to build that intrigue with that potential client or patient.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you sort of answered the question there in the introduction, but my curiosity was also like, if you if you wanted to focus more on the soft tissue, um, why didn't you decide to sort of navigate away from like, staying in school as a chiropractor and become a massage therapist or a physiotherapist or or other Yeah, So

one thing was just money put in. In time, I'd already put 100 grand in. I was halfway done. And one thing too, that was nice for me was I, I guess I could command a little more respect from potential clients by having the doctorate in front of my name. I'm not big on that. I'm like, just because you go to school doesn't mean that you're like, smart, but some clients look at that and it's big. And also it just allowed me to order imaging if I wanted to as well, if I wanted to look like an MRI and stuff like that, and just allowed me to kind of stand out a little bit. I always people reach out to me all the time, especially massage therapists. Are like, I'm thinking about going to Cairo school. What do you think? And I always push them away from it, and I say, do this instead. Like, in hindsight, I shouldn't have done it, but I'm here where I am now. Now one thing about me is I went to school in upstate New York, and we had an amazing anatomy program with like, 20 cadavers and all sorts of stuff. So I got a lot out of that side. But at the same time, it's like, people still take me more seriously sometimes, just because I have the doctorate. But like, I hate when people are like, Well, I'm a doctor. I know better than you. It's like, No, you don't, it's just at the end of the day, it's about results. But the doctor and I was like, I'm already here. I might as well finish and get it through. And I had a cringe, you know, there's a lot of cringe stuff going through where they, especially we got into, like, what's called, like, subluxation theory classes and things like that, where they're, like, talking about the all this crazy stuff. And I share a lot of that in my my materials and what I do. But there's just some wacky stuff out there. There's wacky stuff in every profession, but I feel like it's even more sometimes in the chiropractic side of things. Oh, I

appreciate your your honesty there, and it does make sense having that designation. It does open doors for you. It also allows you to, I mean, we're in we're in Canada, I'm sure it's very similar in the States. It allows you, like you said, to order imaging, but also it benefits the client, for for for benefits as well. So, like, if they're covered by insurance, you know, having that, that designation makes a difference for them, sometimes in their in their like, medical system, it just, again, gives you, like you said, that sort of credibility. There's a lot of really talented body workers, and I'm sure, like you see them as well, but they just because of the designation, they're only, they can only go so far, like, if they don't have that designation, like, if they're just a reflexologist, or even here, like, osteopathy is not, like, fully regulated, so there's still those, like, closed doors. So I can completely relate to the like, you just going going for it, but then making it your own at the end of the day as well. Yeah,

a little tangent on that too. And I talk about this a lot is, I've been guilty of it too. And I call a lot of us, like, technique junkies, and, you know, always looking for the new thing. And what I realized it was like, at the end of the day, the client doesn't really care about what you do or how you do it. They care that you can do it. And a lot of us, like, hide it in our ego, of like, well, I have all these trainings, and I'm a level four master, whatever, and I have all these letters. I'm like, can you get results? Because at the end of the day, results rule, period. And so many people get stuck in that where they're just spinning their tires in the mud, and they're like, Oh, well, I see it all the time. They're like, Oh, I'm taking this seminar, and now I'm this type. Now I'm going to just treat the Fauci or I'm a cupping person, or I'm this and I'm like, Be your own brand. Be your own identity. Be the person that actually goes in there and gets that reputation in your area. I always talk about there's two types of providers. There's a service provider and there's a solutions provider. And I want to treat train more people to become solutions providers, people that are solving problems and getting in there and fixing it. Doesn't matter what your background is. It matters that you can get that result.

Yeah, I love that. It's really it's the same, it's the same principle. They don't care what the letters are behind your name, as long as you are getting those results to them, they want to know that you can fix the problem like the they don't care that all of all the tools that you, that you have, they just wanted you to get to that, that source. I want you to share, like a personal, personal story, every kind of hero's journey or your purpose. Um, you know, where you've really focused your your energy into massage therapists. Um, your your purpose has really come from a personal journey. Are you? Are you willing to share a little bit about that story?

Yeah, I'm always open sharing it. I feel like, you know, one thing they always say is, like, I don't know who said it. I think was like, Brene Brown or someone. It's like, Don't show your wounds, but show your scars. And that's a big thing of like, going from there. But you know, for me, I hurt myself really bad in college playing football. I blew up my back. I went to the doctors. They said I needed surgery, and that was it, and I wasn't going to ever be able to play again. I didn't want to accept that, so I rehabbed, got soft tissue worked on, chiropractic worked on and I thought that was good, so I went to school because of that, and then came out of school, you know, like 2014 2020 13, 2014 in my own practice. And my dad, who was always a really high end athlete, he was a professional referee for basketball, just kind of like, beat his body up a lot. And it started off with, like, a simple knee injury came into my office. I was still fresh. I didn't really know what I was doing and how to figure it out. I was still trying to piece it all together, you know, I'd done a bunch of techniques, but didn't know. Wasn't really able to help him. And then he got into the traditional medical model, which started with, like, one knee surgery, then two, then a knee replacement and a hip replacement, and then three back surgeries. And then that time, he was 57 he was on pain pills. He had to use a walker. He couldn't even talk right, like he just lost all his dignity. And then back in, Coming up on eight years in 2016 I got a call from my uncle, I lived in Florida, that my dad had been found unresponsive and he was brain dead. He passed out on the back porch. They think he messed up his medication. And when he fell, it was a cold night. He fell. He bit through his tongue and was just laying their face down. No one, no one found him till six hours later. As the day proceeded on, he coated eight times because he didn't have any of his, you know, advanced care done. I had to fly up there and pull him off of life support, because no one else in my family wanted to do that. And I remember sitting there, and after he died, I, you know, I held his hand as he died and watched him tick down. It was just me and him, and I went for a walk around the hospital. And I'm like, why does this keep happening? Why did this have to happen, you know? And I was like, there's so many things to blame. You know, so many people. We blame the pharmaceutical companies. We blame the doctors. But I'm like, there's a lot involved in here. And a lot of it, I think, is just the conservative care model. I feel like conservative care people are the first line of what needs to be done. But I just made a post about this this week, and I shared it on my LinkedIn. I was like, we spend so much time in conservative care, like, PTs, massage therapists, Cairo's arguing with each other about, like, what's the best treatment and who's the best and it's like, at the end of the day, we're all trying to help naturally. Like, I'm cool with anyone trying different types of treatment, but if you're on like, your 100th visit with the Cairo or the PT, I got a problem with that. But if you're trying something naturally, that's fine. And the end of the day, the people that are winning are the pharmaceutical industries, the big hospitals, the surgeons, because they're making all the money, and then they're laughing at us, and they don't take us serious. So I was like, how are we going to clean this up? And I was like, I know chiropractic is not going to get it. I'm not a huge fan of physical therapy. I think it can help in the right stance. But I think the first line of defense is quality hands on soft tissue work. You got to get in there and break it down. I always say we're kind of, like, the injury is, like a bad house, and we got to tear it down. We're the tear down people, and we have to get more of that. And I was like, who's the best equipped for that? The best equipped for that are massage therapists. They have the best hands. And then so I started, like, working with massage therapists and learning more and like, I opened up like a whole Pandora's box of, like, limiting beliefs and things in the industry, in the space and everything like that. I mean, I wrote an article for a very prominent magazine that talked about why I think massage therapists are the key to the opioid epidemic, and I was very honored to be able to do it. But the amount of editorial things that got cut out, where I was like, saying the truth about what's going on and how you shouldn't take a back seat to other providers. They're like, well, we don't want to stir the feathers. We don't want to do that. And the thing I think that hit people the most was when I talked about COVID, and I said, Why are chiropractors and physical therapists allowed to stay open? But massage therapists were automatically deemed as non essential, and they went with it, and they they did that. And I'm like, nothing would insult me or hurt me more than someone to tell me that I'm not essential, that I can't help and I'm like, that's gotta change. And it's an uphill battle, and a lot of it is more just fighting the stigmas of what's out there and what people think they can do or can't do. There's just so many limiting beliefs across the board. But from that tragedy, it motivated me, but it also just helped me. You know, it almost took like a cynical view for me, where I started looking at the patients and the clients and what they were doing, and I was like, they're to blame in some ways too, because everyone always thinks there's this magic fix, this magic pill, this magic surgery you're gonna get and take and it's gonna be fixed all of a sudden. Then when it doesn't happen, they're there. I'm like, you gotta take responsibility, but I just want people to know what we do and how we do it. And it really just starts with, like, being specific, and that's what the introduction talked about. Like, this is what I do, and it's really helped me gear that i i would say i ruffle a lot of feathers in all professions, even traditional massage. Like, I'm just not, like, a huge fan of it. It's fine if you want to do it, but at the end of the day, I'm like, let's, let's do something that's going to, like, produce results. And if you want to do the other stuff, that's totally fine. But really, just decide what you want to do, quit trying to be everything. You know, that's the problem I see, is everyone wants to be a little bit of everything. I'm like, pick one thing and just be the best at that. Yeah,

amazing. Okay, so a lot to cover there, and I've got note notes on all of it, like all of it was exactly what I want to talk about. Yes, I agree that massage therapists as a whole, have limiting we have limiting beliefs. We don't want to step on anybody's toes. We're just grateful to be here and just do our thing. So I definitely want to, you know, get get more into that. Fortunately, in Canada and Ontario, specifically, we were considered essential as registered massage therapists. Thankfully, amazing at what with what we do. We were alone in a room with a complete stranger, you know, proper protection and all of that, but it was amazing that we were able to go back to work. I'm really grateful that we could. We had two months off, like the rest of the world, and then we were able to get back in there. And I understand that wasn't the case. For for all massage therapists so, so fortunately, in Canada, that in Ontario, that was, that was true for us limiting beliefs, yes, definitely. And then I love that you are navigate like are drawn to massage therapists for our hands on skills. But then there's still more what we I love that your technique and your trainings, just take what we have and then just like, here's, here's, what else you can do. Do you want to give us a little bit more? What I do love as in your intro, you know, you're really the technique that you have. You're trying to really get us to work less. And I say that with positivity, we don't need to strain, yeah, just trying to work less, as in, can you elaborate on that a little bit

more? Yeah. So a big thing that I talk about, a couple like paradigm shifts that happen for me. One definitely is like, don't sell to the time, sell to the result. So one thing I always say is, I'm like, if you can fix a problem in 30 minutes that might take someone two hours, you're actually four times more valuable. And what I've seen in the marketplace, in the real world, is that people that tend to have, like, excess money are to pay for things and, like, quality things, they actually don't have a lot of time. And then people that don't have a lot of time tend to not have a lot of money, so they're focusing on, like, how much can you get done for me in an hour, hour and a half, where I'm like, the best example I can give on this is, like, say, you have a really bad tooth that needs it just hurts, it's throbbing, it needs to be fixed. I think there's three options that you can do, and this is how I break it down in, like, the massage space. One option is what I call like brushing and flossing, super important. I think that's like the relaxation side of things, which is super important. You need to brush and floss. Then the middle of the road I call more like the recovery, little more high end stuff. That's like going to the hygienist and getting, like, a deep clean, very important as well. And then the last one is actually the dentist that drills the tooth. And I always say, say, you go to get your tooth drilled, and the dentist books out an hour for the drilling, but they do it in 20 minutes. You're not going to say, Hey, Doc, you know, my tooth feels great, but we booked out a whole hour, so I'm gonna need you to get back in there and drill around for a little bit and see what else you can find. You're just happy that your tooth is fixed. And what I want to treat, what I want to train is more people to be the dentist, where they get paid for the results. They get paid for fixing the problem quickly. And the other thing too is like this idea of like, you don't need more tools in your tool belt. You need to sharpen the ones you already have. And you said the word technique. And a lot of people say technique. And a big thing that I've been trying to get away from is saying more technique based and more system based, because I think technique teaches you where to treat, but it doesn't teach you what to treat and how to treat it. So I always say I want to teach people a system, and that system starts with like figuring out what the problem is, thinking critically, asking the right questions, then developing the treatment plan and using the best tool to get them there, but also recognizing the other components of the injury presentation. You know, a lot of times we think it's like just the soft tissue, but hey, there could be underlying problems to the bone, the cartilage, the disc. They could have metabolic issues. There could be a lot of things. So it's like really being more of that solution driven type of provider is what I'm really just trying to train and get them out of the idea of, like, selling your time for money, because that's just not going to be able to happen. It's not it's not physically sustainable, like there's only so much that you can do. But I'm like, what we really teach is, like, how to cut your treatment times by 50% but still make the same income or double that you should get paid if you're doing it better and faster. So that's what I really try to focus on.

Yeah, I definitely, definitely agree with that. And then it like, when it comes to, sorry, there was just, like, so much good information coming up.

I just, I can, I can talk all day. So I love it. I try, I try to slow down, but, you know, just cut me off if I'm talking. No, no,

not at all. So I will need to educate myself on re like, reusing the word system your the system that you teach. Can you elaborate a little bit more on what that that looks like?

Yeah. So the goal is, the goal of the system is really so you have no holes in what you do. It starts with like, knowing what questions to ask, knowing what type of functional tests to do, knowing which palpations to do, and then we have results driven treatment. So what we what we teach in what's called adhesion release methods, it's, it was actually developed by a few of us over the years on my best friend, Dr stepie, and he's the one that really got it going. And then we came together, and we worked together on that. We went to school together in there as well. And we've really, I've been able to help bring the massage therapist into the world. He was training more doctors. I was training more massage therapists, so we kind of came together on that. So I'm the program coordinator behind that that really helps people implement the system and do it right. But it all comes down to the idea is we're, we're experts at finding and fixing adhesion also known as. Scar tissue, which really reduces overall flexibility, causes weakness and a lot of dysfunctions. And then the other issue that we end up seeing is that when scar tissue and adhesion forms, it actually creates a lot of what's called nerve entrapments. And nerve entrapments are a really big deal, because when nerves get stuck to muscles, it creates a whole vast array of problems. What's out there in a lot of the literature is a lot of people think that the nerve entrapment is actually a trigger point, and it's actually something very different. And they treat the nerve entrapment like they treat a trigger point, and they put pressure on it, and they do that, but in order to break down the adhesion or the nerve entrapment, you need proper depth, proper tension. So a lot of people look at our stuff online, they're like, oh, that's myofascial release, or that's a r t, or you're just doing that. Like one someone told me the other day that they were gonna sue me because I was ripping off this technique. And I'm like, no one has anything patented, like, just get out of here, you know. But at the end of the day, it's really gets down to finding where the problem is and fixing, I say there's three steps to fixing a problem. First is you got to restore the range of motion. When range of motion is limited, you have to fix that. Then you need to balance the strength and then increase the strength. So us as soft tissue providers, we're so important, but we're not really looking for it. We're really kind of treating it in a different way. We know it's there, but we don't actually have the right tools to treat that, and that's what we teach, is more that fine tuning and feel. And that's why I like working with massage therapists better, because they're, they're they're almost there, and then we just show them a little bit more of like, oh, that's how you can really feel it. And that's how we've really, kind of, like, grown this program.

That's awesome. And as part of your program, do you also help educate so massage therapist on how they can educate their clients. Because if I'm a traditional massage therapist and I'm doing 60 minute treatments, and then all of a sudden I'm like, Hey, I'm going to cut your appointment down to 30 minutes, because I think I can get you results in that 30 minutes, do you kind of help navigate what that conversation looks like with your with your client, and how we can start to educate clients. This isn't the the first time it's come up, at least on the podcast as well that, like, Why? Why do we need 60 minutes when we can get results in, like, 15 sometimes, and then we're just kind of filling, filling time. So yeah, what does that look like for you in the in the program to help massage therapists? So, yeah,

it's really interesting. You asked that, and it's actually the thing that I specialize in the most, just with my background and like in psychology and human nature and talking to people, everyone thinks it's all about the treatment, and the treatment is super important. I say it's a it's the foundation of where you need to go. It's like 50% of it, but the rest is like client education and communication, like letting explain that. So half of the program is really just explaining to the client, like, hey, we were doing this before. Here's what we're gonna do now. And I think another thing that a lot of especially massage therapists, struggle with is that scarcity mindset, where they think that the current clients they have are the only clients that they will ever get. And that's like, hey, there's a lot of people out there that want access to your treatments, but they don't have an hour, they don't have an hour and a half, but they can find 15 or 20 minutes. And if you're producing results, that's really big too. I'm big on just educating the client throughout the journey, in the beginning, how you differentiate yourself, like the soft tissue specialist, and then, like, what we do, how we do it, and like, we're big on, like, just always explaining that we teach this, this thing I call win the room. It's this idea that I came up with. Every single visit, you have to continue to show the client that they're doing good. They're making results. It's like, I show them, I talk about what they have. I do test to show them they're improving. I say treatments working. I explain what I'm doing. My treatment room is very clinical. It's very like, bright lights, you know, no no linens, nothing like that. A lot is just treat on there. And it really the whole time. I'm like, you feel that, you feel that tension, that's that nerve entrapment. And then I show them that it's working, and then I wrap it up. I'm like, Hey, Krista, so today, what we did was we treated this area in your neck, it's gonna feel pretty good today, probably gonna be a little sore over the next couple days. I need you to do this, this and this, if you have any problems, reach out to me and go from there, you know. And then what happens is, we, as providers, we're only spending a little bit of time with the client in between, and then they go and live life in between. And then another thing I see is a weakness, especially with massage therapists where I don't have it as much as like, just being the true leader for the client, like telling them they came to you because you have a skill set, and being very definitive of what you do, and not being like, Oh, well, you know, you really shouldn't run, you know, because you got that. It's like, Hey, you have this problem. Here's what we're going to do. Oh, you don't want to do that. That's okay. I'm not going to treat you like you're gonna I'm gonna be the leader in this situation. And that's where a lot of people struggle, because they want to be friends with their clients. And it's like, it's, I don't I don't need to be friends with my clients. My clients like me, but I'm not, like, trying to hang out with them outside. They came to me for a reason, because they want me to help.

Yeah, I think that that's really. Really important as well. And I mean, essentially, it's just emphasizing like a treatment, treatment plan, which is essential for rebooking clients and for educating them, and then for helping them take responsibility for their own own self care. And I think you're right that there is a huge scarcity mindset, scarcity mindset in the profession of massage therapists, and we do touch on that a lot on in this podcast. And it's, it's just a constant, you know, just something that we're always just trying to share with the the listeners that that there's, there's more there's more clients, there's an abundance of clients. You don't have to hold on to this particular client. And it's also okay, once you change your your system to that you're going to lose clients, because there's going to be somebody that's going to want that 60 minute session and is not going to be able to move forward with you. If this is the the route that you want to go,

yeah, for sure, and it's just being comfortable with, and that's, like I said, is like, just pick a lane and stay in there, because there's, there's plenty of opportunity in each one. But what I found is that, like, people pay more to get out of chronic pain, um, especially neck and low back pain. And it's, it's a huge industry, and they're not, you know. And another thing too, is, I think massage therapists get stuck in what I call the commodity trap, where they really compare themselves to, like other people in the area. They're like, Oh, well, so and so is doing that. So I'm going to charge like, $5 more. I'm like, it's not really. It's like, I always tell people, when you give the price, it should almost be like, oh, like, okay, they're going to take it more serious, because I found in my history, the clients that pay me the most money, they're the most invested, and they see it all the way through. And a big thing that I teach is getting the client to pay for all of their treatments up front, because it gets a commitment across the board. And that's a big thing at first. It's not like, Oh, if you buy the treatments, you get like, a discount or a free No, it's like, this is just the price. Because I learned this from personal trainers. When you go to, you go to the gym, and they're like, you're gonna commit. And it's the same thing, and it helps you as the provider, be able to, like, not feel like you have to try to, like, hit it out of the park every time, you can really get right with that dosage and that treatment. And they're just invested in there as well. And it's just better for everyone involved,

yeah, for sure. Um, definitely not something unfortunately, that we can't, we can't do like the the prepaid in in Ontario. But I understand the value of that. I understand the personal training model, and I understand how that can work as part like, like you said, the commitment, the accountability, and just and then have, like you said, having that runway so that you're not trying to get everything done in that one session. You've touched on it a few times, and so I think we can just run right there. Essentially you're mentioning like, stay in stay in your lane. But I think what you're referring to is the niche when it caught like, to form massage therapist, to actually pick a an area that they want to really focus on and really make that how they market to clients, the clients that they see, so that they can say no to everybody else and focus on on one particular group. This is probably a limiting belief that you see with massage therapists as well, that they hesitate to niche down. But can you explain what the benefits would be if you decided to really focus on one, one particular area. Yeah,

great question. And, you know, I, you know, some people accuse me of like, they're like, oh well, you talk about money and making good money. And I'm like, hey, at the end of the day, if you're doing good work, you deserve to deserve I talked to so many massage therapists that work like three different jobs, and they're like, barely getting by. And I'm like, and then they're always like, I always see, it's sad. I see these posts all the time I'm on LinkedIn. They're like, now they're doing a new job. And they're like, oh, it just didn't work out for me. And I'm like, Well, that's because, and they blame everything else. I'm like, you just didn't have anything of value, and that you can find value. But the thing I learned was that specialists get paid 10 times more than a generalist, and when you're a specialist, you can really narrow down your focus. So I really try to get people to really niche out. I'm like, Hey, be the shoulder impingement person in your area. Be the carpal tunnel syndrome person, be the headache person, that's that's a stretch, you know, I always get them to take baby steps. I'm like, well, at least be like the neck and shoulder. Person, be the low back and hip. I learned this from the orthopedic model. It's like, when you hurt your shoulder and you go to the doctor, you're to see a specialist. You're seeing the person that just does the shoulder all day long. That's all they do, all they know, and they're able to say no to those other things. When you're trying to know everything, the body's really complicated. There's a lot of things going on. So if like, you're trying to be, I would say a jack of all trades, master of none you don't. You're just surface level of everything. You can dabble in that, but you're not really sure where to go, where it's like, Hey, I just see neck and shoulder in my clinic, and that's it. So I'm dialed in there, but it also just, I've had so many clients that have come in and reached out, and they're like, Well, I saw that you only do neck and shoulder in your clinic, and I want to see that it just puts you at a different you. Higher level, and this kind of helps with some of that like, level of like, being taken seriously as a provider. You know, massage therapists are already kind of put down on the rung, which I don't agree with, but that's just how they're always behind the Cairo and the PT. But I'm like, when you can pitch yourself as that specialist that helps bring you up that next level, I've been amazed with how many people that have gone through my programs and they reach out and they're like, man, so many people like, call me Dr, so and so, just the way I carry myself and I do that, I'm like, yeah, it's just about that, and it's just about perceived perception of like that. You can fix the problem, and it just never it just clears your brain out. For so many you know that it's so complicated, I could just spend all day, just in the shoulder, and never really get it all. It's like really narrowing it down just helps you focus better, and just gets you the type of clients you want to

work with. Yeah, I think that that's really important. It is. It's a challenging piece for massage therapists to wrap their head around to to really focus on one thing, but I think it can definitely benefit them, especially just how you talk to people, about about what you do, you don't have to worry about, about all of that. You also touched on it a little bit earlier, how you feel, how the massage therapists are really play a bigger role in helping with the epidemic, the opioid epidemic. And can you elaborate on that? Yeah,

so the way I look at an injury in the most basic standpoint is this idea of like, load versus capacity. Load is what they can take. Capacity is what loads what they do. Capacity is what they can take. And when an injury happens, load exceeds capacity. So I tend to like to play more in the like chronic injury space with not a lot of trauma, like not someone that got, like a horrible car accident, but maybe someone that, like got neck pain over the years that kind of built up. So basically, over time, what happens is that adhesion forms in the muscle from bad postures, everything like that gets inside the muscles, then eventually gets stuck to the nerves, then puts more pressure on the disc, in the joint, in the cartilage. And then when that starts to get bad and ruptures, and that people get the really bad pain, and then they end up making an appointment going to their doctor, and they're like, Oh, you got an MRI. Okay, hey, look, your MRI shows you got this disc degeneration. You got degenerative disc disease. Let's go in there and fix that. Where I'm looking at that as like, that's the effect. It's not the cause. I read this really good book. I always forget what it's called. I think it's called, like, back to normal. It was written by an orthopedic surgeon who did all these back surgeries, and he started to realize that the disc in the pathology wasn't the actual pain generator. It was a soft tissue. It was their lifestyle and everything like that. So my thing is, like, if we can get in there and clean up the soft tissue, we can slow it down. I always say, think of the degeneration as their thumb and it's stuck inside a car door. The car door is all of that adhesion. If we don't remove this, we can never give this a chance to heal up. So people get these surgeries. It's almost like they pull their hand out and then they jam the door right back down. You got codes called failed back surgery, failed this, failed that. So it's like, even if someone's had surgery, we can slow it down by treating the tissue, getting them functioning better. It's just, I think there's such a bigger role in the soft tissue work, but it doesn't make as much money. So at the end of the day, I mean, it's different in Canada, because you guys have to be more specific about what you do and what's covered in the US. It's like the wild, wild west here, and the surgeons are always going to go after a procedure that pays them 50, $100,000 and they're never going to, like, go to these lower level things that actually help. And the problem here, it doesn't get taken as seriously, because there's a lot of Whack, whack a dudes that are talking about, you know, like, energy healing and doing like that stuff's fine, but you got to go in there and make a physical change in the tissue. So it's just kind of like, woo, woo here a lot. And I think it's really separating yourself from the rest of the people out there and standing out in a different way and just getting this care to people earlier. It's safer, it's effective. There's no side effects to it. And I always say worst case scenario for the client, I clean up all your tissue. You get functioning better, you move better. You go to have the surgery, you're going to do better regardless. But sometimes we can prevent it. Other times we can just keep it so it doesn't have to be everyone wants to jump into surgery because they don't actually have to physically do anything. But we wonder why we have an opioid epidemic across the board, right

for pain management and just to function in daily life, yeah, yeah, when you're offering that solution with soft tissue release. So yeah.

And I think a big thing, it goes back to, like, the best example someone gave to me. It was someone that I was listening to and he talked, he gave the example of like, say, you have anxiety and you want to be able to relax. One of the things you can do is you can do meditation. You can slow down. You can practice it. It's really hard to do. It takes time, it's frustrating, but if you do it, it's safe and it can work. Or you could just pop a Xanax and you could feel good right away. Now, Xanax is a ten billion industry. And meditation is that because it doesn't require a lot of effort and sacrifice on the client. So the big thing that I try to teach people is like, Don't lay all it out to your client. Be like, Oh, I gotta see you for like 30 visits, and that it's like, just do little pieces at a time. Like, I'm gonna have you come in for about 20 minutes a week, twice a week, and we're gonna go in there and do it. And then it just is less effort for them to get in there and get it fixed, and then they're going to be more likely to you kind of got to give them what they want so you can give them what they need. And that's where a lot of people struggle, because they try to, like, tell everything about the treatment, instead of just being like, we're going to do this and fix this as quick as possible and make it safer. Yeah,

perfect. You described your clinic, like your clinic space as being very clinical. I'm just curious, what does your what does your day look like like? What, what does the day in the life of matt look like? Yeah,

so it changed a lot, probably over the last like, year or so, um, now that I've been teaching and, like, training more. Um, but before I was just, like, in the clinic, I just, I like to work in like spurts. So I always try to, I always try to be available when people are available, um, as opposed to, like, having their traditional, like, nine to five. So for me, the first couple hours of the day, you know, I really struggled with my health. A couple years ago, I was about 80 pounds heavier than where I was. I was depressed after my dad died, and just wasn't taking care of myself. And I actually couldn't practice for about nine months. So I realized, like, my health has to be my number one priority. So my first you know, I get up about 5am every day, and my first couple hours is just getting my body right, movement, eating right, moving right, and things like that. And then I just work in chunks, about four days a week. I only really see clients for about 12 to 14 hours a week, but I can see three an hour. So I basically work like a 12 to two and like a 430 to 630 Monday through Thursday, and then I have the rest of the time off for that that time is spent training, it's it's spent doing other things, and my treatments are really focused. So in a typical 20 minute treatment, you come in, we talk about what's going on, we do some tests, we do some measurements. I probably only do about five or six minutes of direct treatment during that then we wrap up what's going on, and then we're done, and I do my note, and I'm in and out. And really, in an hour, I'm really only doing 15 to 20 minutes of actual work, but it's really focused, really dialed in on big, on body mechanics and things like that. And when I find areas, I'm only treating them that need to be treated, as opposed to like doing everything. So I always teach people, I say, when you do our system at the end of the day, you should be mentally tired. You shouldn't be physically tired. Because if you're physically tired, you're just, you're just going hard the whole time. So I've just really found a good mix of, like, being able to just treat the patients that I want to treat, and be in and out and not be feel like I have to be here for hours on end.

Yeah, do you practice as an as an individual, or now, because you're, you know, expanding your brand, and you're teaching more and like, are you? Do you work within a space where the same system is being used in your in your practice? Yeah, so

it's pretty interesting. So I used to have a huge practice with about four other providers that worked underneath me. Huge staff was other doctors and things like that, and just was a lot overhead and all that kind of stuff. And then I started about three or four years ago where I would bring on a massage intern, like fresh out of school, and then they would actually be my assistant for a while, and then teach them how to do it and do the treatment and things like that. So when I came on to work with Dr stepping in, adhesion, release methods. One thing that we found is hard is so many providers that come to us, they're solo providers, and when we're showing them, like, oh, we have all this staff and all this system, they're like, oh, that won't work for me. So I'm a big like, show me person. So I decided when I came here that I was going to show them that you can run this system all by yourself. So I run the whole system all by myself, and it's really helped me create some empathy for other providers, because I'm in it too. Like, you know, one thing I hate about a lot of trainings out there or systems is a lot of the providers aren't in it anymore. They just teach all the time. They don't know, like, what the day to day stuff is. So it's like, I show them the struggles. I do it all myself, and I can get it all done in about 20 hours a week and still have time for everything else. So it, there are some frustrations with it, because, you know, I've always had other staff. But it also helps me really just understand when I'm talking to someone in one of our programs and they're like, Hey, how do I do this by myself? It's like, here we can do it as well, and it really helps. So I've been up to that challenge, and it's been, it's been good, um, but at the same time, like, there's, there's, there's issues with it as well. But physically, I'm holding up really good. That's

great. I love that you're staying involved and and still teaching. I think. That that's really important, and I feel that I have more respect for the instructors when I'm learning from somebody who's also in the trenches. I'm a clinic owner as well, and I I feel that it's valuable, like, sure, I want to reduce my hours eventually, but I feel it's valuable for me to be in the space, to work alongside my colleagues, I can always add more hours if I need to. I can see the the space every day. So I kind of know if things are amiss, I'm available. I and, you know, I just, I feel like it's just really important. So I'm glad, glad to hear that you're still involved that way, and I feel like it brings a lot more respect to the trainings. If the individual is not is is daily, practicing it, so you're also tweaking it along the way as well, if things need to be adapted, yeah.

And what's also good is, when people do come in to do some training, they're able to shadow one of us and they come in so they can actually see it in action. You know, on in theory, anyone can say their technique does this or their system, but it's like, you can see it from start to finish. And then it really helps you understand that, like you can do that as well. It's really empowering for the other provider, because they're like, Oh, okay. Because before, I was always like, Well, you're a doctor that that won't work for me. And then it's like, okay, well, this can work. I trained five massage therapists individually, and I was like, well, it works for them now. And then they train people. It works for them. So it's like, what more do you want to see? What you're really just saying is that I'm like, maybe you're just a cynical person, and you don't want to think that it can ever work. So I there's no hope for you. But there are people that can do it. And I used to get so frustrated when I'd be at these seminars and these people teaching had, hadn't practiced in 20 years. I'm like, You don't understand what the real world is anymore. Like, you gotta there's more to it than just the treatment you we touched on it earlier, like marketing, communication, selling. It's a whole different game out there, and you got to be fresh with it and hit all aspects of that, that process, as well,

running with, with that, and with, you know, your trainings. And then, can you elaborate on why you feel continuous education or continuous learning is like essential for growth, and I love your points about I mean, I'll let you share, and I'll jump in there if I need to. But can you, can you elaborate on that? Yeah,

so someone said to me, you know, at the end of the day, the one thing that no one can ever take from you is your knowledge. The government can't take it from you. You're a divorce. Can't take it from you. You have your knowledge, and the number one thing you can invest in is yourself. Um, there's a great person I learned from his name is Alex hermosi, and he basically talked about this idea called, like, ignorance tax. And the idea behind that is, like, if you're not say you want to make $100,000 a year, but you're only making 40 every year, you're paying $60,000 in ignorance tax. So what I've learned, really, is to buy other people's mistakes in other people's time, and people think like mentorship or programs is just about learning a certain thing. And it's not. It's like, I do an individual podcast where I just kind of like rant about stuff. And one thing that I talked about the other day was like, you can't, you can't let other people dictate to you what you do or how you train. It's like, at the end of the day, everyone thinks they just need to train more and more and more and get more and more under their belt, and it just it's not going to get you there. So it's like, really, I use criteria when I'm looking if I want to take a course or I want to learn, first one is, I'm like, is it going to get me better results? And then the next one is, is it going to help me do it faster? Because at the end of the day, all that really can increase that top line is, can you do it better and you can do it faster? If it does it better, that's great. If it can do it better and faster. That's how you should invest. And most people don't look at those type of trainings as like, investments. They think it's a cost, and they are. They're like, people reach all the time, like, oh, I want to take one of your courses. Like, what's the cheapest one you have? And I'm like, we don't have a cheap one. And they're like, Well, why is that? I'm like, because there's no such thing as a cheap solution. Like, what do you what do you think you're going to get out of that from taking a mandatory course? So it's like, really finding the course that's going to help you. But really, it's not even the course. It's like learning from someone who's where you want to be. And my thing is, I don't take advice from anyone that's below me that hasn't gotten where I want to be. I only take advice from people that have done it, and they can show it in their real world and in the world of the internet. Everyone portrays themselves as like this expert in this guru and stuff like that. I'm like, Well, do you have a real office? Do you have a real staff? Do you have a real thing that you built? If not, I'm not going to listen to you. And so everyone just takes those courses based off, like, wanting to have more tools in their belt. But it's like, is it really helping you? Is flying to a course and taking that going to help you increase your top top dollar? Increase? How? You get results or cut your treatment times in half. If not, then don't do it. But most people just take courses, just to take them and say that they did. But it's important to continue learning, but eventually you have to stop learning and then actually apply what you learned. And they call it like, um, you know, mental stimulation, where you're just always learning, learning, learning, but you never act. And it's like, pick something. I don't care what you do, but pick something, dedicate yourself to that and just get so good that nobody can ignore you.

Yeah, that's wonderful. I completely agree. Like sometimes these mandatory courses like that we not, not that we have, we have to continue our education. That's mandatory in our profession. I love the way that they've adapted it as far as for what's required of massage therapists in Ontario, we have a much more broad like, we're allowed to come at it from whatever angle we want and justify it for our practice and for our personal growth and development. But prior to that, yeah, we had to take, like, say, so many credits every couple years. So you're just like, you're like, Oh my God. Like, I'm at the end of I've got six months to learn, like, 30 credits. So you're just, like, picking, you're just like, Oh, this one's close, and I'll take that one and whatever. And you're just kind of throwing money at these instructors as well, and so they're happy to take your money. But did you really learn anything, as you say, with the criteria that you're looking at? Did you apply it when you got back and or, like, like, what? What did you actually get out of it? So I love them that you you really emphasize the better result, better results and faster. Correct?

Yeah, yeah, because I Yeah, do it better. First learn to do it better, and then do it faster, because that's what, you know, speed. Speed kills anything else. I always say, nothing beats free and cheap more than fast. And people will pay more to get it fixed quicker and fix it better. But most people, they look at it very emotionally. They're like, Oh, well, you know, I want to be able to say that I offer all these things. I'm like, nobody cares. I'm like, a client that has horrible neck pain. If I can treat them in 15 minutes and they feel better, they're just grateful that they feel better. And it's we don't haggle over the price. We don't they're just like, This is great. You helped me, because we're solving that problem. And when you're solving a problem, you're not stuck in that service trap where the client tells you what to do, how to treat you know, you everyone has those clients are like, Oh, I saw this guy on Instagram, and he said, it's got to be this, and I do this. And I'm like, okay, like, I don't know what to tell you, but it's like you came to me because I'm an expert in a certain thing, and that's what I do and you touched upon it earlier. It's like the real key to growth is being able to say no to all the other stuff, because those opportunities are are going to keep you from doing that. So it's like, it was hard for me at first, like, if I get a knee or a foot problem, like I'd want to take treat it, because I know how to treat it, but I'm like, No, I can. I'm like, Oh, I'm turning down business. But I'm like, there's so many people that have chronic neck and shoulder pain, they just don't know that I exist Sure.

And I'm sure you're also doing your professional due diligence, and although you might not specialize in the the knee or whatever you you have those connections where either then referring out. So it's a win win. You're, you know, building that rapport. You're, you know, your reputation is intact, all of that. So, so, yeah, I think that that's really important as well for just to remind practitioners that you might be saying no to them, but you're still offering them, you know, but here you can go see so and so and this they can help you so you're not leaving them high and dry.

Yeah, that's a big thing that I teach with, more like entrepreneurial type of, like, massage therapists that want to own a clinic. I'm like, hey, get three or four underneath you and have then you can cover all areas of the body. And that's where they're like, Oh, I never realized that. I'm like, as the owner, you're like, in charge of everything but feed those other people. And like, yeah, I got a neck person on staff. I got a shoulder person. Have that, and that's how you can really, like, expand and blow it up. But people don't tend to think entrepreneurial. They're just like, Oh, we got four people under the roof, but they're all kind of competing with each other. So it's like, let's not have them compete. And we can all just, we can take out that whole market and have all aspects of that as well. Yeah,

that's a great aspect of it as well. You used the word in that just at the end of the other conversation, you were using the word service. And I know that you you have strong opinions about what part of why massage therapists are not are not leveling up and on par with like physios and chiropractics, is because we're still so connected to that word, like in the service industry. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah,

I think sometimes when you don't have as much confidence in what you do, you have to try to make it up in other different aspects of that, and one is just being nice and really kind of taking what the client tells you to do. And it's hard, because at first, when you're first starting out like you're struggling, you want to make money, you want to help people, and you don't want to get that. Label as like, oh, that person's a jerk, but those people, there's really good book. I'm a big book reader, but one book I read, it's called Pitch Anything. It's by a guy named Oren claff, and he basically talked about, in any dynamic, there's these, like, social frames, and someone has to be the alpha and someone has to be the beta, like someone has to be in charge, and someone doesn't. And a lot of times, at first I didn't know what to happen. And I get stuck where you get caught in what I call a beta trap, where they tell you what they're going to pay, tell you when they're going to come in, tell you what to treat. And I would just kind of take it, and it would just frustrate me, because I'd see them on my schedule, and I'd be like, Oh man, I got to deal with so and so they're a pain in the butt. And that one person would put me in a bad mood. For everyone else, that is good. So what I realized is kind of call those people back out on their own nonsense. So one thing I always say is, like, someone would say to me, Oh, I think I had one patient. She's like, well, it's, I read this article, and it's got to be my multifidus deep in the you know, this, whatever. And I was like, Oh, interesting. I go, um, where'd you go to medical school? And they're like, Oh, I didn't I'm an accountant. I was like, Oh, I didn't know you guys had advanced training in anatomy and accounting school. She's like, No, we don't. I was like, oh, okay, so let's check it. And then it just kind of like, diffuses that without like, I can. I'm kind of being a jerk, but I'm not being a jerk. I let them know, like, Hey, you're here to see me because I'm going to fix it. We're not going to have you come in and dictate what's going to go and how we do that. And that and that happens with younger providers as well, but also happens with providers have been around for a while, and they have these entangling relationships where they're just like, at the beckoning call of the client, like they got your cell phone number, they got your they can communicate with you, and then they just get used to that. And then when you do change, it's hard, but sometimes you got to kind of cut the cord on some of those people as well. Yeah,

I love that. And like, yes, you could call your clients out in some more subtle ways as well, but I love that response to the accountant. And sometimes it's just because they're so used to being in charge in their daily life that they just walk into the room like that. But as you said, when you can put them at ease, like I'm the professional here, you can relax, turn your brain off, let me find out what's going on, and then then we can treat it more appropriately. And and I do feel like massage therapists do come at it from from the other, the other perspective of like, just really taking we listen to the client. But then sometimes I think we do take them into account too much as to what they think it is. And I think in the medical profession in general, there is, is this push for the patient to advocate for themselves, which is great, especially if you're trying to fight something like the opioid epidemic, and they want to find more natural solutions. But when we're taking a back seat to like what they what we feel they should, should, what's best for them, that's, you know, we're allowed to voice our opinions, and I think that we do hesitate to do that more often than than we need to.

Yeah, big thing that I always say is that we have to be our job as providers. Really simple. We have to be an advocate for the patient's future health. Our clients future health, despite where they are now, the biggest thing, the biggest battle I have in communication, is explaining to a client that the only thing worse than where this is is where it's going, and that we have a window of opportunity to help fix this. And it just puts people at ease, and it's really just connecting with them. And one of the best things that I've ever done when I take a history on the very last question, I always dial in and I just ask them straight up. I say, How is this problem affecting your quality of life? And I just listen, and I let them tell me what they've been going through, what they've been experiencing. And it'd be amazed that I've had people cry. I've had people like get upset of what they've been through, and that's the medical system is. It's different between Canada and the US, but at the end of the day, people just aren't getting the care that they need. They're not getting the attention. The providers are burnt out, and the people that are suffering the most are the patients, because they're not getting the care that they need. And then people that are good providers, they don't even stick around anymore because they just don't want to put up with it anymore. And I'm just really trying to empower people as the provider to do take care of yourself first, so that you can help everyone else out. And that's been my biggest message across the board is like there's so many people that need you, they just don't know that you exist, and they're crying themselves to sleep every night because you can't get out of your own way and you're stuck in the stigma or trying to be like everybody else out there. My favorite meme of all time is, like, it's all these, these little girls are dressed up as like ballerinas at a party, but there's one girl with like a Batman outfit on, and it's like, in a group of ballerinas be Batman. And that's what I want people to do, is like, stand out and be different than everyone else, and that comes from just solving problems and getting to the root cause and being that expert in your area. Yeah,

excellent, Matt. How can massage therapists and listeners and body work or anybody that would like to learn your your system? How can they find out? More about about what you do and what you offer. Yeah.

So we have a couple of things available. One thing that we do, we're very active on YouTube. We also post a lot on Instagram. I'm also big on LinkedIn. We share a lot of content between me and Dr Stepien as well. You can look us up under adhesion release methods. Also, we do have a free five day we call it like a sciatica feel and touch type of thing where you can really get the idea of, like, how we get into the most common problem that causes, like, sciatica issues. We show you testing clinical signs, palpation treatment to really get you starting to think more critically about being that problem solver, and go through there. And then, if you like that, you know, we have training programs. We have some available online, we do in person, trainings, we do all sorts of stuff. We really want people to get a better idea of what we do and how we can help, but it's really helping. We're really for those people that have decided that they want to stay in that lane of like, specifically treating injuries and like solving problems, then we're definitely for you. We're not the ones that like add an extra tool to your tool belt. We're like, if you want to totally transform how you work, how you treat and really just get better outcomes for your clients and patients, but also make a really good living too, because if you're putting your body on the line, you deserve to be taken care of at the highest level as well. That's

great. Do you do? You travel to teach as well? So

I do more one on one in my clinic. Myself in Raleigh. I'm in Raleigh, North Carolina, but Dr Stepien, we have provider, we have we do trainings in New Jersey, in his clinic, and then we also do them in St Louis as well, in Dr Lytle clinic as well. We actually just had an event over the past weekend called our accelerator course. We've actually only been doing live trainings for about seven or eight months now. We put a lot of time into building the online program. We actually get a lot of people internationally, um, especially like Australia and like Europe as well. So we wanted to build the online program really good for people that couldn't travel, but then also be able to do that as well. But yeah, the in person trainings are great. It's you get to work with other providers that are excited to be there. They're not just taking the course to go through the motions and stuff like that. And we cap it at 12 people per course, so you really get a lot of one on one attention and stuff like that as well.

Good. Well, it's nice to know that it is accessible online as well, and that it is a technique that that does translate, and you could learn everything online super effectively as well. So that's really good to know for the audience. It also just exemplifies you know, your your your business mindset as well, that you're you know, you have, you have, you have these skills, but you're also looking to share them in a more broad sense, and it's just an increased revenue stream for you as well, which I do also love to talk about as as a healthcare practitioner, that we it's okay to have those multiple streams of income, amazing. So we'll put all of the links. I think we're going to have quite a few book links as well. Thank you so much for those recommendations. And maybe I'll find that meme somewhere as well and post that on our Instagram. So is there anything else you'd love to include to wrap up and something that we didn't cover? I loved how how much information was here in such an energetic format. Yeah,

I just wanted to thank you for having me on. Um, I don't this is actually one of the first, like, interviews that I've done. I tend to do more one on one with my myself, where I just kind of talk into the microphone and people send me in questions, and I'm getting better as I'm getting older, as not being so like, you know, like, just do this and do that. I'm understanding that. But at the end of the day, your limiting beliefs are just keeping you from getting the life and the business that you want, and like continuing to blame circumstances and time and money and other things is just holding you back from the life that you want to get, and stop comparing yourself to other people around you, compare yourself to who you are today versus who you were yesterday, and just get a little bit better each time. On the inner part of my arm, here I have, I have this tattoo, and it says, win the day. And I learned this, this concept that, like, all you got to do is win one day at a time and do the things that are going to move you in the right direction. And the best part about what we do is we can really help people and change their lives and help them get out of pain and just stay the hell away from pain pills, injections and surgeries, which have ruined people in my life and everyone else out there as well. So I really feel that us as soft tissue providers just need to step up more, because we have a duty and obligation to help people, and that starts by changing your mindset and doing learning how to think differently, treat differently, and be that different person, but being okay with that because you're going to stand out from everyone else out there. And I appreciate all the work that you put out. I love your content and the stuff that you're sharing as well. And I really enjoy talking to Canadian Massa service. You guys have great trainings. You're very well. Informed. You know, it's it's not like that here in the US sometimes. So I do connect with a lot of Canadian providers, and they really, you guys have really strong convictions and a good heart and where you want to be. And I appreciate the time and having me on here too.

Oh, it's my pleasure. I really appreciate you reaching out. And I also enjoy speaking to practitioners in the States, because the business mindset is a little bit is different, and I like to be kind of like shaken up a little bit about that, and challenged. And I just love the enthusiasm and the end just the outside of the box thinking. So I really appreciate that, that perspective as well.

Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, I appreciate all that, too. So you