Queering Disabilities: Understanding Disability, the Forgotten Margin

12:51PM May 10, 2024

Speakers:

Desa Daniel

Keywords:

disability

identity

counselors

counseling

people

oppressions

experience

work

community

marginalized identities

chronic illnesses

talk

important

coping

ableism

resilience

question

students

black

based

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Hi, everyone, my name is Daisuke Daniel, and I'm super excited to have you here on the thoughtful counselor podcast. And today we are talking with my dear friend Dr. Tweaking Hunter, I'm super excited to have them. They do excellent work in the profession. But they've taught me a lot about disabilities. And I'm really excited to have that conversation with them. And then just all the other amazing work that they're currently doing in the profession and at their new location and their new job. So we're just going to kick it off right away. Y'all know me, I like to keep it super informal, but kind of fun. We do have some questions, but really, we're just having a good conversation about the work they're doing and kind of what's next for them. So yeah, Dr. Hunter, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Absolutely. But first, I'd like to thank you for having me on your podcast. As Dr. Daniel said, I'm Dr. Tamika Hunter, I, my pronouns are she and her. And I'm really excited to be on the podcast today just to share a little bit about myself and my work, the work that I do. First, I think it's important to understand how I identify. So I identify as black, a black queer woman with a lifelong physical disability. And certainly, those identities and the intersections of them have influenced the trajectory that I'm on both professionally and personally. So my work centers around multiple marginalized populations. But looking at those populations from a strengths based perspective, I study resilience, and before anybody thinks it, I'm going to acknowledge that resilience has some legitimate critiques, we know that opportunity structures are unequal Therefore, many of us have to be more resilient than others. Right? And that is not ideal at all, to say the least. But the reason why I I focus on resilience is because although it's related to coping, it is different coping is how you adapt to a stressor, right? Well, resilience is thought to have stress buffering potential. And so what that means is you're not adapting to a stressor, you are buffering against the negative impact of the stressor. And because that is in some a lot of the research. That potential is noted. That's why I look at look at multiple marginalized populations from a resilience and, and other strength based constructs perspective. So that's just a little bit about kind of the work that I do.

Awesome. So I love that you just jump straight in. And I'm just going to kind of ask some follow up questions. So we kind of get a good foundation of the work you're doing and how that really ties into your identity. But then also, it sounds like through your identity, you've really been filling the gap and literature and research and conversations. So that folks like me really know what's happened happening in the disability community, but really the difference between coping and resilience and so you said coping adapts to stressors.

Was that right? Yes. So the if you're coping with something, you've already been negatively impacted right? By the stressor, so you're adapting to what has happened since you were impacted by the stressor. But it is believed that resilience allows for you to have to buffer against the negative impact to start with. So that is the reason why I look at my work through a resilience and strength based lens, for example, in my article queering disability, we talk about a, let's say, a queer, black man, for example, I'm part of part of what can help to buffer against a queer disabled black men, for example, what part of what helps can help to buffer against ableism is say the family talks about experiences related to racism, right? So we we externalize that experience and put it in the framework where deserves to be, which is it's a societal systemic issue. It's not an issue with the individual ableism is the same way, right? And all the other isms and phobias, right, and so having that familial high inflammation, shared experience, can help to buffer against the the ableism, which is a form of resilience to be able to buffer against those, those isms. So that's, that's just an example. Hopefully, that makes it clear. Because of your coping, you've already been affected. And so how are you going to change in response to what something that's already impacted you, negatively. So that's the difference. The other thing is about, you know, my work. The other reason why I work from a strengths based perspective is because I have a critique of the field of counseling. And it's an unpopular opinion, but I stand on it. And that is that we talk a lot about disparities in counseling, and counselor education. But if you continue to set up the majority to minoritized group comparison, it is truly a deficit model that you're coming from coming at these communities with. And for me, there's a need to recognize that, yes, there are disparities, because there are systemic oppressions, and intersecting oppressions that are present, but there's also strengthen those communities. And I think there, it becomes like a fine line is that we continue to just publish talk about disparities. It's almost like disparity points me. And it's like, where do we switch from like, informing people to being kind of purveyors of the deficit model, by routinely focusing on deficits, that's not all our communities are about? Right? There's much more to us, if you would take an interest in that. There are lots of strengths and lots of contributions and lots of things that we can harness from, you know, our research to better support clients, the who are multiple marginalized, including people with chronic illnesses and disabilities. So I feel very strongly as you probably can hear, that we I think we focus too much on disparities. I mean, don't get me wrong, that gives us some really important information. But I think that there needs to be more balanced in the literature, more balanced in practice, and just more balance, and recognizing that there are strengths. Just like there may be, you know, things that can be improved.

Yeah, that's, like, you just gave us so much information I like have goosebumps. So I'm gonna start with our first question and kind of like, lead us into this deeper conversation. So, okay, it's kind of kind of join us a little bit. So my first question for you is, how should we define and understand disability?

Well, first, it really depends a lot on context. But I'll back up and say how I define disability is that it is an element of diversity. So I don't, I mean, think about the fact that disability can occur at any point in life. So it's across the lifespan. It cuts across racial identity, ethnic identity, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, gender, expansiveness, all of the any identity that you can come up with disability touches it. And so for me, disability is natural. Disability is another element of diversity. Unfortunately, a lot of times I think that disability is an afterthought. It's thought of at all, it's what I call the Forgotten margin, when we talk about diversity. So that's how I define it. But when I mentioned earlier about context, what I mean is, if you are if you're defining disability under the ADEA, so a major impairment that limits one of the major life activities like reading, working, driving those things, learning. That's one definition, but it will be very different if you're talking about pursuing disability payments under To the Social Security Administration. So it's related definition, but it's a little different. So I think we define it by context. But if you're asking me to mica, what how do I define it? I see it as an element of diversity.

Yeah, it makes me think of, I had the pleasure of going to your presentation in October at aces with yourself and Dr. McCulloh, and I've thought about this ever since then, is in your presentation, you talked about being temporarily temporarily able bodied. And that has really stuck to me. And and then now you said, disabilities as the Forgotten margin. And I think, especially for folks like me, who do a lot of identity work and and really talk about, like, what is it like to hold multiple marginalized identities? I am just as bad as most of the other scholars I know is that we don't often talk about ableism when we talk about those identities. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm just like, go

ahead. Yeah. No, no, good. No, I'm

just like, you're educating us. And so I'm taking notes. Oh, that was it? Oh, yeah.

Go free for free? Yes. I really just I really, because of that, because I, I noticed that, you know, all the time. And the just the absence or the afterthought, or the Oh, yeah, that kind of thing. That is, I'm sure. Part of what prompted me to pursue, pursue this space, both in my clinical work, as well as my research, scholarship and other activities. I just see that there is such an absence and need for this knowledge.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I'm gonna lean in, and I'm going to call I'm going to call myself and others in and ask, why is it important for mental health professionals to know about disabilities if they do not work with that population?

So I would, I would say that, first of all, how would you know that you don't work with disability? Or population? Right? That would be my first question. Because unlike what people think there are many more chronic illnesses, invisible disabilities, chronic health conditions, that impact people then say, you know, what, I think what people think about when they think about disabilities, they're thinking about a physical or sensory disability, like mine, but there are many, many more people who have chronic illnesses that you do not see, but do impact them functionally, and can be disabling. Especially with the advent of COVID, long COVID People are having conditions and being having things that impact the way they live every day. And in some cases, in many cases, it's disabling. So for those people who say they don't work with people with disabilities, it might be that you're not creating a brave space for them to come to you or to talk about the disability or condition. Furthermore, though, I add a caveat to that. Um, you know, one time I was looking, looking for an individual therapist, and, you know, so I was doing like consultation, and this is pre COVID. And I did an in person role and with my chair and whatever. And, you know, probably two questions. And she was like, Well, I, I see you have a disability, I'm sure that's part of why, you know, what your presenting concerns are, why you're here. And I was like, Okay, so one, you're exhibiting a bias. Unfortunately, disability does not absolve you from all the other, you know, financial concerns or relational affection or concerns that happened in just life. And so I actually wasn't there related to my disability, I've had my disability my entire life and that is not really and I'm cool with it. So it's not that wasn't a part of what my presenting concern but what I want to what I want counselors to know is two things. Yes, you should broach the subject of disability I'm actually going to write I'm in the process of writing a manuscript around broaching disability, with Dr. nombre de vines. And, you know, yes, broach the subject but would avoid this is a term that I came up Because I couldn't, I was like, I have to figure out a way to to conceptualize this. Avoid the assumption of salience. So ask about disability like you do other elements of person's identity. However, don't assume that the disability is the presenting concern, it definitely just indicates a bias on your part. Like the therapist said to me, I'm sure that's a part of the reason you're here, which would say that she thinks of my disability as something negative. Needless to say, I did not see that therapist after that meeting. So it's really so it's really important to broach the topic, don't just mention it one time, if the person has that identity, ask them if that's part of their presenting concern, rather than to assume that is, and then, you know, incorporate that into your, into your sessions, if that is indeed, part of what they want to talk about. But definitely ask the question. Don't assume that that's what's most salient to the person. So I think that's, that's really important for mental health professionals to know as well as you may not you may not know that you're working with a person with a chronic illness or disability because you don't ask the question. In any of your initial paperwork or in your sessions.

Yeah, absolutely. So one thing that kind of came to mind as you're talking is kind of like going back a little bit to your critique of counseling and disparities in the first thing that came to mind, and I'm not sure if you've heard this term, and it's kind of come out over the last few years is trauma porn. Yeah. And it's like, right, like this idea of like, I have to lay myself bare, and like, give you all my trauma for you to be interested for you to publish my article for you to write like, it's, yeah, I think especially in black communities. It's like it pulls us out of celebrating any type of black joy. Why? Because you don't want to see your black joy. You only want to see our black trauma.

Right? It's much the same as Yeah, yeah. And

I've seen that a lot, right, like around I do work on mental health disparities and teaching students to understand them in a way that helps them like, cut the system and like, work on policy reform so we can get rid of the disparity idea.

Yeah. From a systemic levels.

Yeah, especially because as you're saying, right, like, here's, here's a licensed therapist, regularly sees clients and who's sighted that right like assumptions of salience and, and folks who have any type of marginalized identity can understand that when someone's like, Oh, I understand you because you're black, or I latched on to you, because that day, and you're just like, No,

no. Yes. I just want to lay like, you say, No, No, try again. So yeah.

Yeah, it's such. I needed it's, it, it feels like it fits, because we talk so much about building report. And it's almost like people latch on to the this, like what they physically see, without knowing you well enough. Right to Know if that is actually a source of report. And so I also wonder, like, what are your thoughts around? How do we do a better job of that? Like, how do we do a better job with our students of saying, like, building rapport shouldn't be so surface level maybe?

Well, well, I really think that what what it boils down to me is that just teaching them to be culturally humble and culturally curious, right? So it's not that it's not a bad thing to notice and acknowledge that I have a disability. Right. But the added I'm sure that's why you are here. That is where the problem comes in. So you get curious and your, as a part of your initial documentation, you're asking, you know about sexual and gender identity, you're asking about chronic illness and disability, then it's in a larger context of you gathering information that will be supportive, hopefully, to me in my sessions, right. So it's okay to ask the question, but actually ask a question. Rather than assume that that is an issue because it really reveals more about the clinician, and the lack of cultural humility and competence than it does about the client. And again, the session is about the client. Right? So I think it's about getting curious. It's about asking the client Question rather than assuming, based on presentation. Um, and I say this for myself too, with my four marginalized identities again, you know, a black queer woman with a lifelong physical disability very obvious disability, I use a power chair. Um, you know, before I got my doctorate and worked in counselor education, I was Director of Accessibility Services. And so I had a student come in, you know, to get accommodations and services set up through my office, and the student was, or is a black person with a physical disability. And what I realized is, I was like, wait a minute, the issue here is that I have to stop myself from over identifying, right, and assuming that I know what this person's experiences are, because we share three identities same, you know, it's still a problem for me doing that, too. So right, I checked myself as well, you know, I need to not over identify, don't assume that my experiences are these this person's experiences, simply because we share many of the same marginalized identities. It because you, you miss out on the opportunity for that person to help you learn who they are. And that's a really important part of building rapport. So, you know, I realized that that was happening. And I had to go back and like, you know, correct it and acknowledge that that was what I was doing. So I don't want to be on here acting haughty and like, I don't make mistakes, I want to be real clear, I make mistakes every day. So I want to share that, just from my own experiences of a mistake I had made.

Yeah, I love that you talked about that so much, because I often talk to my especially my white students regularly, that even though you think you've have a shared identity, does not actually mean you understand someone's lived experiences. Exactly. And I tell them, like the I do even more cultural check ins with my black college students than I do with anyone else, because I want them to know that I'm open and willing to listen to their experience and their story, and that I'm not assuming that they have the same pathway as I do, or, or whatever that may be. And it's interesting, because I think it makes me kind of come back to what things you said earlier around, like coping versus resilience is, I think we're too quick to want to do the right thing that we then almost like throw out everything else, or like, Hey, I know you because you're me. And that's actually where, like, we lack broaching. And that's where I just feel like a lot of like, cultural eruption. haps happens. Yeah. And in that assumption, like, Oh, we don't have to talk about the basics, or we don't have to get on the same page, because I already know who you are. Yeah. And that's really where right as marginalized therapists or counselors can really further make mistakes. And I've been just as guilty as that of not creating a struggle a foundation with your clients or with your students, or whoever that may be, because you're already ready to jump in to the work, right, without building any trust in that work.

Right. And we know, right, regardless of your theoretical orientation, or modalities, it's the therapeutic alliance that really waffled so does that, right? We know that therapeutic alliance is really what makes counseling work. So we can't skip those steps of building rapport. And it just all brings us back to cultural humility and curiosity. So we have to get curious about the client beyond what we're seeing in front of us. Or in addition to I should say, what we're seeing in front of us and let them tell their story. Right. I think that's really important. Yeah,

absolutely. And in something that you said a little bit ago, that just highlights all this for me is he really said, like, it really reveals more about the clinician than the client. And really thinking about like, it's not a skill to assume. Well,

it's not that we say what does it mean when we assume? Right? So it's definitely not a skill. Many people are skilled at assuming but that does not make it a necessary skill and counseling or even a wanted one. Yes, yes, absolutely. I

totally agree on that. And So you touched a little bit on lung COVID. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna take our listeners way back to January 2020. And I know nothing about rehabilitation counseling at all. I was like, oh, that's just another profession or another field that's not mine. And I'd like to say I've come a long way in four years. So I think growth growth has happened. But I, I saw your article, I read your article covering disabilities exploring the resilience of sexual and gender minority persons living with disabilities. And that's really what set off this idea of this podcast is like, hey, let's have this conversation. I'm learning about this. But also, I think our I think counselor Ed has done. I don't like 15% better at incorporating this in a different way, especially incorporating disabilities. But I really wanted to reach out to you to really talk about this. And the first thing that, like stood out to you in your article is you talk about double marginalized identities. And I was really curious, like, what are queering disabilities?

So I'm claiming disability is like a play on words for the article, because it covered a population of people who a community I belong to, right, I'm EMIC, to this research. People who have disabilities, and who also have a sexual expansive identity, a queer identity, right, and maybe even some, some other type of Marga, marginalized identities such as race, right. And so it's, first of all, you know, bringing to awareness, the play on words is really bringing to awareness that people with disabilities have sexuality are sexual beings, that's number one. And also, we have them and we're not all heterosexual right, either. So it was kind of my way to kind of get your attention in with regard to that. But really, this work and all my other publications and work centers, people who have two or more marginalized identities, and the intersections of those and I think that we've gotten into this, this space of misunderstanding what intersectionality truly means. Um, so it's not just a collection of identities, right? Where these marginalized identities intersect, it's not additive, as people think it's not multiplicative, it creates a intersection that cannot be parsed out, it creates a new set of experiences where you don't know if, you know, for example, a black person who has a physical disability, you don't know if what is happening, is related to the oppression that's happening is related to the disability or is ableism, or if it's racism, or both. So it creates a new set of experiences that you cannot parse out. So it's not just about listing your identities, it's about having the experience of having intersecting identities, therefore, having interlocking oppressions happening at the same time.

Yeah, and it, it kind of what stands out to me, as you're talking, as I told you, this kind of off audio was that I teach group counseling here at CU Denver. And one of my students asked me if I thought, everyone has identity, or like, everyone has an experience with their identity. And I just like get goosebumps whenever I talk about this, because what I'm a firm believer that while folks may not have a full awareness of what identity is like in this academic model that we always talked about, we actively make decisions and choices. And like, how we move through our day is heavily based on our multiple identities, right? And so when we think about intersectionality, it's just too simple to say yes, like, oh, as a black woman, I did x, right, without any context of like, where I live, like where I work, my experiences are all based on this like full person identity. Like they're not playing off each other. It's like I don't identify as a woman and one second and then as black and the other. It's like I have these experiences are heavily formed and heavily influenced by my whole holistic identity.

Right and by one another. Yeah. And especially

just right, like the power of identity development of realizing that, right? Like, that's what we see in just like everyday conversations of people look back on their past experiences. And they're like, Aha, like this happened because I was a black woman, or this was because I am a black woman with a disability, not like, yes, this just happened. Because I have a disability. Yeah, it's fully formed by who you are, and how you show up, whether you're aware of it or not. And that's like, exactly, it comes back to like that systematic influence, like we're so deeply influenced by these systems of oppression. That yeah, we don't even if we're not academically aware that they exist. They exist regardless.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You were talking about like, as a black woman, is not just where you live, even your where you live can be influenced by the fact that you are a black woman, right? We all know about redlining and all the different things that happen in gerrymandering, and how how all these different things can happen based on those identities. Although they might deny that to the end, all of these things impact how we engage and how people engage with us.

Yeah, and I love that you said that so much, right? So something else I told my students last night was that, like, I had one experience, just one experience. Well, before I was even in academia, I think I was like, maybe an undergrad where I was flying. And it was just like a situation. Just to like, get through the airport. It was just a situation. And I'm like, now I always fly with my passport and with TSA. And it's like, that one moment of just having folks like having TSA agent asked me all these questions was enough for me to change. Yeah, how I moved through the worlds for the rest of my life, right. And that was like, Well, before I even knew about identity, and so making sure that, like, while you're talking to intersectionality, and you're talking about while you're talking about intersectionality, and you're really talking about queering disabilities, like it's so critical for us not to simplify it. Yeah, because it feels easy for us, like we really need to lean in to the complexity of these conversations and have these identities so we give the folks experiencing them, like the full humility and cultural awareness that they deserve.

Absolutely. 100% Couldn't have said it better. So

as a kind of follow up, and we're already talking about this, I feel like I already know your answer. But I kind of said earlier that I realized I knew very little about rehabilitation counseling. And I was just wondering for you, like, why is it important for clinical mental health counselors to know about this article?

Um, I think it's important for for counselors and clinicians to know about disability as a whole, right? It because one, you know, going back to one of your previous questions, why is it important for people to know about disabilities when they don't work with people with disabilities? Well, one you would not know, whether you are or not, because you're not asking the right question, right? Or you're not asking a question at all. For us, you're making an assumption of salience, which is off putting, and can cause a rupture. But also that, you know, it like people with disabilities and chronic illnesses are 20% of the the United States. Well, the world's population actually, it's, it's even higher, when you look at the world, and 20% and the United States. So we're everywhere for one. And so if you haven't worked with someone with a disability, you will, and you need to treat this competency around disability. Just like you do all the other competencies that ethically we are to engage with, um, and the disability counseling competencies are a thing people need to know about those. Because, you know, again, disability and chronic illness occurs across the lifespan. And you know, this little ingroup language you refer to earlier, tab temporarily able bodied we say that we talk about you all able bodied people when you're not around. And we've caught we say tabs if we're really able bodied because we recognize that, you know, even with aging, you're if you're fortunate enough to age, you're going to have some functional changes, right that can be disabling. So it's just really important because it cuts across all identities, all socioeconomic statuses, and can occur at any time. During the lifespans, but it's it's under, it's an underserved population. And there's something interesting that happens around disability that I don't experience around my other identities is, you know, people acknowledge they need to better understand race, they acknowledge that they better need to understand trans identities they acknowledge, most people do acknowledge that they need to understand sexual identity in the field. But I feel like disability is something that people think they can just Intuit rather than, rather than it is an entire field that you need to understand rehabilitation is an entire field that you need to understand the mental health impact of that is the difference. If it's lifelong, it differs if the disability is acquired a difference if it's from a traumatic event, you know, traumatic brain injury, for example. So it's a broad spectrum, and there's a lot to know, but I just feel like people think they're just supposed to intuit or just be nice to us, which is, I wanted to get into that, but like that you need it's a set of skills that people need the clinicians need.

Yeah, yes. Yes. I, I just laughed my whole life away. Um, yeah, as you're talking, I was just thinking, like your, your naming all of these multiple types of disability and like, how they may come in and out of our lives at different points. And, like, whether to ourselves or like, to people we love, and I just couldn't stop thinking about how historically, we have painted disability as a mental health condition. And I'm just very stuck on this idea of

it feels too much. Like folks are afraid to talk about disabilities, because they're, like, worried they're gonna get it. I don't know if that makes sense. Like, like, it's almost like people are afraid to talk about these things. Right. Like, it's, it's the same stigma of mental health, but it feels just so much. It just feels deeply ingrained in our socialization. Yeah, don't look or like, don't stare, or like says exactly, like, won't talk about it.

Right. And that continues, even though we're counselors, right. So so that fear carries over, you know, when I just remember, I remember going through the airport, when I was younger, going through the airport, was a little girl, probably about four years old. And she was like, Mama, how can she have that and her mom does drugs her arm and like, pulls the little girl away. And she like, whispers to her like, and you know, what is that telling that little girl that people with disabilities are to be you should be afraid of don't talk about it, there's some shame around it. And, you know, I was able to like, kind of catch up to the little girl and I was like, This is my wheelchair because I just could not let that stand. And I was close enough to get there. So I was like, you know, this is my wheelchair and helps me get around. She was like, oh, okay, how she's like, you use that all the time. I said, Yeah, most of the time when I'm in a crowd, I need this. And she said, that's cool. So it was a whole, like it changed her whole demeanor around this ability. And so I would encourage, you know, even in our day to day lives, forget about the profession, like, think about how you're engaging with people with disabilities, or what do you know about the people with disabilities? And also think examine whether you think that people with disabilities are people that need to just be served all the time, or whether you think about us as people who have something to contribute? Right? So that kind of shifts it's a paradigm shift right when you think about it that way, so yeah, please do not pull your children away answer their questions that being weird. By the way, we created disability community created a hashtag abled are weird, you should check it out. It's really funny. It's like firsthand accounts of weird things that that people without disabilities do, thinking that they're helpful. We also call those thing goodwill goggles where you like, hidden like hurt us, or yourself, trying to play or trying to consider yourself helping us. The problem comes in is when you don't wish Fact, fact that we say when we say we don't need help. But anyway, yeah, I think it's really important to examine how we navigate and whether we actually know and engage on a deeper level with people with disabilities. And those actions come from, yeah, as

you're talking to. So I was thinking so much about, just and this is very much. I told my friend the other day, I was like, oh, maybe I'm a masochist. Because I've been reading a lot about white women and like, how white women come to be. And when you're saying, like April's are weird, I also thought or like, as someone who identifies as black as well, like how white niceness or like, nice racism also comes into that mix of like, I'm, I'm doing my community a service by helping you. Yeah. And it's right, like, it brings me back right to this double marginal marginalization of identities of, it's almost like, like, when we talked about the stolen pandemic, of how do you manage COVID and racism, when it's all happening in your community at the same time? Wow. So for like, for communities experiencing disability, like how do you manage, just trying to like get through your day, while also like, having all of these varying levels of like, microaggressions? Or like, like, the ableism of folks thinking that I think you said it best, like, oh, I can't help myself, or like, I'm not equipped to do this. When you like, just met me three seconds ago, of like, just all of these on you. Yeah, yeah.

So it's, you know, you know, is double marginalization quadruple, in my case, you know, um, you how you cope with it, you know, I definitely cope with it better now than I did as a young person, and it was really trying, but I think you have to find your people, you have to find your community, right. oppressions don't have as much power as they do in isolation. So when you understand that it's a shared experience, you externalize that out, then you can find support, you can build community. So it was really important for me to to, to build community around disability, being community with other people with disabilities, other queer people with disabilities, other, you know, people that share my identities that look at disability from a disability justice lens, not from a pity lens, piss on pity, Gradebook, and also just my sheer attitude, because somebody does nothing for anyone, but you so you can feel better about yourself. So, um, I think that's really important. Reading is really important. The first hand accounts are how other people have navigated it, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, there are other people in the world that have some of your same experiences. So it is okay and recommended, right to be resilient, and learn from them. You don't have to go through every trauma yourself. Um, so that that, to me is really important. And also just doing things that I find enjoyable. I'm a big foodie. So I like you know, trying restaurants. When I was a little girl, I used to want to be a chef when I was around about eight or nine, then I got pragmatic. And I was like, yeah, now that's not gonna work. So, um, but you know, so I, you know, do those things that I enjoy, I like travel and fashion and things like that. And so you do the things that bring you joy as well. So it's not all about suffering, hopefully not, you know, in your life. And so find the things that that give you joy, even if they don't make sense to other people that it doesn't have to, right. So I think those are some of the ways that I cope with all of that. Yeah, absolutely.

And so kind of leading into my next question, and something you've talked about already is, you said that 20% of the world's population is experiencing some disability or some type of disability. And that was really powerful to be because recently, and we've talked a little bit about long COVID The who is saying that about 29% of the world population will have long cope long COVID symptoms as of the end of January 2024. So just kind of cutting those numbers together. And just like we're looking at, right, like the numbers aren't perfect, but if if we just put them together, we're saying almost 50% of the world population will either have some type type of long COVID symptoms and or some type of other disability? And in that like those one, I mean, I wish humans are better, because I mean, long COVID is completely different podcast for us. But, yeah, so when we're thinking about just those numbers, it's like, how do we prepare our students to meet the needs of this community?

And so that goes back to what I was saying is that, that's why I think it's important for people to have an understanding of the disability related counseling competencies, right. And you know, what the 20 24k crap standards and not all programs, okay, crap, but just what those standards my program is. So that's the context I'm speaking from. There was a goal of infusing more disability, knowledge, skills, and everything throughout the curriculum, I will add, they've done a better job, when you say it that way. They've done a better job of infusing that throughout the curriculum rather than as a side or an add on. But you know, as rehab counselors, we are mental health counselors, I'm a licensed professional counselor. I'm a nationally certified counselor. And I'm also a certified rehab counselor. And I think it's there's there's some confusion about that we are mental health counselors that have a specialization in chronic illness and disability. Just like other people have specialties and school counseling, you know, it's some for some reason, I think that some people don't really view us as mental health counselors, but we are mental health counselors. And it just depends on what setting you practice and how that's handled. But that is a part of our professional identity. And given the numbers you just talked about, it's really important to not just say, Oh, the rehab counselors will handle that. Right. And just relegate it to us, although we have the specialized knowledge, and certainly we should be consulted. And you can find support with us. Everybody needs this knowledge just based on the numbers we just talked about. And they are a reality. It's not inflated, really at all.

Yeah, I love so much that you really highlight the distinction of rehabilitation counselors. I'm grateful to say that I never thought that like I've always thought that you were clinical mental counselors with just like the specialization, right?

You're way ahead of the rest of them. Yeah.

Because I think the same thing right about school counselors, especially, it's like most school counselors are trained like clinical mental health counselors, they just specialize in schools that are setting right. Yeah, exactly. And I'm, I'm like, I love that you did such an eloquent job of calling on clinical mental health counselors. In like, this is not just the work of specialization, like, if you have a quiet ever man whose work? Yeah, like, if you have a client who's experiencing addiction, I can't be like, I'm sorry, I don't do addiction, like,

yeah, that's not right. You wouldn't do that. Or imagine you're like, Oh, well, if you somebody, you'd be in violation of ethical code. They're like, Oh, I will, I can't see that black person. Exactly. Exactly. You know. So it's the same thing. But that's why I say it's the Forgotten margin, because people don't think about it as the same thing, but it's the same thing. ableism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia. All of them are held together by power, privilege and oppression. It's all held together by the same thing.

Yeah. Yeah, that was just, it's just so powerful to really think about how we create all of these deviations in our work. Yeah, and in that process, we almost are like giving ourselves permission to not learn more. When is the last thing that we should be doing? Like we should be reaching out when you read it? We should be leaning in not like, Oh, this feels hard right away. Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

I'm gonna say something that's gonna piss the school counselors off on this listening to this podcast, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Cuz you just made me think about it when you said that right? Running away like the term special needs. That for me, and many of us in the disability community if you want to know more about it, Google hashtag say the word, hashtag say the word but it's written by people with disabilities and chronic illnesses. Special Needs is othering. And so that hashtag is not just about the words special needs. by all the weird euphemisms people come up with to say, to avoid saying disability, which also again illuminates that they think disability is a bad thing rather than a natural variation in the human presentation and condition. Special Needs is othering. Because if you say someone has special needs, then it kind of says, oh, I need a certain amount of expertise to engage with them, it lets people off Cook, right. And so if I need my I, we all need shelter, food, belonging, that sort of thing. So if my house if I roll into my house with zero step entrance, and you roll into or you walk into your house at steps, we both need shelter is not a special need. We all need education, love, belonging all of those things. So it's not a special need. And again, I feel like special needs is a othering term that kind of can allow people to step back instead of leaning in to learning about this community. So again, if you want to hear from actual people who have disabilities and chronic illnesses, Google hashtag say the word. Don't ask me, because I will not change my perspective on that. Um, I mean, I'm sorry, but not really. But um, yeah. So it's just one of those things. That's kind of like picadillo for me, I don't. Yeah, I don't like it.

No, it's right. I think it's incredibly powerful. It's like, more and more we talk about the, it's critical for us to listen to communities with these experiences, like listen to the people who are actually experiencing the experience like don't like,

not what makes you comfortable than someone who doesn't have that experience. If you're really, really comfortable, without engaging with the person with those identities, you are probably doing harm.

I mean, he said what he said,

I say what I said.

Okay, so as we're wrapping up the one of the questions, I love to ask everyone, it's always really geared towards right, like, the next generation of students. So what is one thing you think is important for students who are listening right now to know? Oh, that's a really good question,

what's an important thing for students is that you're gonna make mistakes. And it's going to be okay, make them anyway, that's typically how we learn. I really think that perfectionism and comparison are thieves of joy, and learning, they stifle us. If you're feeling too safe in a learning environment, which really every experience is an opportunity to learn, then you're probably not allowing yourself to grow and develop as much as you possibly can. So I think it's like, letting go of the needs to be perfect. And grasping the needs to be curious and humble. And I think that will help them to go quite far.

Yeah, that was so powerful. So as we wrap up, I like every time I talk to someone, I'm like, we're gonna have to do like five more of these because I have all of these questions. But I don't want to steal all of your time. Where can we find you next? Like, what are you doing next? How can we connect with you? How can we just keep up on all the awesome work you have going on? Um,

thank you for asking that question. So you can find me on LinkedIn, I'm Timika Hunter, on LinkedIn, connect with me, I love to connect with folks. And I'm also at Palo Alto University. And so you can also connect with me there to meet the hunter.

Awesome. So I like to always just go back in cover some just nuggets of excellence. I'm gonna start calling them. So there's a couple of things you said that just stood out to me. So the first one is, you said disabilities as the Forgotten margin. And then you said it that it often reveals more about the clinician than the client. So really realizing that you talked about assumptions of salience in then just a little bit ago, you said, up, oppressions do not have as much power in isolation.

And I've been thinking a lot about that as much power as they do when you're in isolation. So when you think it's just you, when you think it's just you and you're the one experiencing it, and there's something wrong with you, rather than something being wrong. With the entire system, that's where there's a problem. So find communities. So you can externalize that. Recognize that you have to share this experience with lots of people. And we are, you know, oppressed people are brilliant and adaptable. We have to be to live in a world that was not designed for us. And so find those people who don't have to be a martyr alone. Find your community.

Yeah, yeah, it does you for the help. Yes. Thank you so much for the clarification, because I've been hearing this theme a lot. There's been a lot of conversation on Twitter and Instagram, other places about around you can't you don't heal trauma in isolation.

Right. Same thoughts same.

So we've been thinking about a lot. Okay. So the other thing is, you just gave us a ton of resources and hashtags to check. So one is hashtag say the word. And then the other one was hashtag April's are weird. And I'm excited to look at that one today. So that Yes, probably what I'll be doing instead of what I should be doing, which is my actual job, but it's almost the weekend. So we're just going to lean into it. It's fine. This man, yeah. Yes. Thank you so much, Dr. Hunter. This was such just a wonderful experience for me. But also, I'm so excited for people to hear about your work in in really start to lean into being uncomfortable in disability space, so that we Yes, just serve this community better. But also, yes, thank you, like, just bring them in, right? Like we need to do a better job about bringing folks into the fold rather than this expectation that they're covered in other areas, because we don't all have the knowledge that we should.

Exactly 100%. And you know, anytime I get the opportunity to connect with you, I'm happy. So thank you for having me on the show. Absolutely.

So please, please, please look at the show notes. There'll be information and links to Dr. Hunter's LinkedIn, as well as information about her profile at Palo Alto University. I am so excited to have you. I hope that you are having a wonderful day, night or morning wherever you're listening to this and we will see you in our next episode. Thank you for listening to the thoughtful counselor podcast. Have a great day y'all. Bye.

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept, Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto you.edu forward slash concept. As always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe