Computer. Okay, so maybe I can just reflect back what I was hearing the result was really interesting. So I was hearing that when you were doing your counseling, that you would listen, and you would take on a lot of the emotion or a lot of the feelings. And then your advisor was kind of asking you, oh, what are you doing here, they were trying to, you know, sort of say, and so you had to learn how to listen, or empathize better. And I guess there was some things she was trying to explain to you. And you also I was also hearing you have some in terms of reflection, an odor of offering a reflection, is if you how you do that. So the nuances of how you do that, if you if somebody shares something, do you start with the first thing they said, and then, you know, reflect that back? Or what happens? If you start with the last thing they said, and then you kind of reflect that, what they said back? And so you're just sort of having some curiosity about what's the difference in sort of those approaches?
Yeah, it's definitely. Let's see, kind of hearing what I said reflected back to me, I guess, more comes to mind is that, like, I noticed when people tend to be very nervous about reflecting everything back, they tend to, say, take it chronologically from like, the first thing they heard up until the last thing, and they'll try to get it like verbatim repeating back. Whereas when some, I don't know if this could be stated as a general rule, but maybe like, when the other person is actually experiencing a lot of emotion, It'll kind of be the concluding statement that gets put forth first. And I don't know if that's anything that should be controlled, or, or, you know, enacted purposely or anything, it seems like something that naturally happens that's actually instrumental in helping the other person feel like that they're really being understood.
So in terms of the reflection, you've noticed, so people are sort of anxious in terms of reflecting, they try to go right from the beginning, hit all the points, but to maybe if there's more of a skill or something not sure is, is to reflect back to the last thing that they said was sort of the essence that maybe that they shared more of their felt experience at the end, and then you're sort of like reflecting that back?
Yeah. And I think just from being the, the, the, on the receiving end of empathy, that, that there's something that's immediately calming about that, that, you know, I just got, you know, if I share something that had emotional salience to me, I don't necessarily want to wait until to hear them reflect back, you know, kind of the more the minutiae before getting to that I kind of want to know, right away, do you get what I'm talking about? It might have to do with that physiological synchronization, that article that I sent you. Like, are you? Are you here with me like it not in just a cognitive sense, but in a real embodied, felt way?
So for yourself, when you get a reflection, you like to kind of the essence reflected back kind of the and that kind of shows that the person is really there with you. And it also creates that sense, the synchronous synchronicity that that article was covering. So yeah, I think that's what I'm getting.
Yeah, the article talked about oxytocin being, which I know you've spoken a little bit about being the underlying the neurochemical that's responsible for that physiological synchrony that happens. And so yet, you know, yet another thing that I don't know what we can control or have much, I think it kind of ruins it to try to exert too much control over something like that. But interesting, nonetheless, to know how empathy looks when it's at maybe its peak.
So you're just wanting to see what like the really peak empathy is like, what is it when you're doing it at its best?
Yeah, exactly. And just that in just knowing that oxytocin plays a role in that. So
so just knowing that oxytocin plays a role and maybe what what is the role or just kind of understanding that I think I was hearing To the maybe understanding it too much might be inhibitive of it does that second you feel elite here, kind of get that?
Nice. Okay. Yeah. So I think that's it actually, I think I feel heard.
Okay. Yeah, going into the nuances of how the reflection happens. And the essence of it, I think is like a hope would be a whole nother training module, you know, how to kind of how to go deeper in the listening. And so. So I think those are all great points that you're bringing up, you know, to, to kind of be explored to.
So, you're saying that going, going further into the nuances of the empathy circle, what works? What doesn't would require, like a whole separate training module? Kind of going at a deeper level?
Yeah, I mean, I had thought of it like a module to, to write to go into that, you know, you're talking about sometimes my memory is like, Oh, I can't remember. So I'll actually say the last person said, because it's, it's, it's kind of the most relevant, it's like, that's kind of the first thing I remember, if I reflect that back, then I can sort of work backwards to kind of cover the other. So that that's one thing, but sometimes it is I really get that sense that someone has shared. And then at the end, they're kind of sharing the felt experience of, of what they're saying, or they've kind of gotten through the sort of some details they're getting to the essence. And if I can just reflect back that, that core feeling then then they feel satisfied. Like, yeah, you just get the core feeling. And I'm pretty happy with that.
Yeah. So yeah, so I think what you're saying is that you're agreeing that yeah, like, oftentimes all? Well, I think you're actually building a little bit off of the conversation and saying that, if you do just say back what the person said last, often, that actually does the job of reflecting the whole thing, because the previous was just kind of like the details that built up to it. And, but sometimes you over repeat what was last said, just because it's what you can remember first.
And then also, I have a I do when I'm listening, is try to be present with the person. And I am looking, sensing trying to sense the felt experience. You know, it's like, what is the felt experience that I'm having? And even if they don't say it, I might take a stab at, you know, naming, like, they might be frustrated, they don't say they're frustrated. And then I'll, you know, try to sense into it. And, and then other times, it's just like, I don't know, I don't know what they're feeling. You know, it's just, I can't name it.
Yeah. So sometimes you just you make it a point to listen to the felt experience. And sometimes you'll kind of take a step, you'll kind of go out on a limb, we'll take a stab at it. Other times, it's less clear. Yeah.
Well, so that's, yeah, so that's like they're going into the nuances. I think a whole there's a whole module to be created out of the actual reflective listening, and how to do that, and, you know, all the that and try to get better at it. The, in terms of a typology, when, when, when I'm thinking about a typology, I'm thinking in terms of what is what is the sort of the understanding that people have out there in general of the categories of empathy? And then, in a bit, you know, I think that's what Batson was trying to do is create that those categories, so that you can, when somebody speaking, say, Oh, they're talking about this, you got a whole, under, you know, whole concept and understanding of what they're talking about. So I guess I was wondering, well, if we talk about creating a typology, are we talking about a typology of just what we think empathy is, or really a typology of kind of what's out there in terms of the different categories or types of empathy?
So you're sort of kind of reflecting on you know, after reflecting on the nuances and how that that would probably account for a separate module, you Turning the attention to the topology again and kind of wondering how to start going about that. Is it consolidating what's already out there? Like that's in topology? Or is it kind of coming up with one that makes the most sense? You know, to us or who to who you work on this with, based on the circle practice? Yeah.
Well, it's sort of taking batsman's typology has eight, you know, categories? And how does that relate to the empathy circle just to use the empathy circle as a model so that we can have something tangible? That can be referenced, you know, it's like, okay, this is yeah.
Yeah. So it's like taking those eight forms of empathy and seeing kind of how they map onto the empathy circle, like using that as a model.
Yeah, the phenomenon the phenomenon that happens in the empathy circle, like, you know, he somebody naming, you know, whatever his are, I don't have a topic. But how do they map on to something a moment that's happening in the empathy circle? So that there's something a tangible phenomenon to reference?
So yeah, so you're saying, I'm going to grab the book that has all listed but so you're saying like, how can we? Or how can one take all these different components of empathy that ate that bats and named and sort of map them on to the phenomenon that the phenomena that kind of manifest in an empathy circle, for instance,
and and what are the what are the top typologies? out there already? Like, it sounds like you were using Mark Davis's it sounds like that was something that was irrelevant, you know, a typology that is used in the psychology world, then there's bats, and then there's Goldman. And then there's Rogers, or some of the names that I can think of is probably, you know, other other typology. So in a sense, it's like, what are these typologies? And how do they sort of fit together? What is it sort of like different buckets that each one is a conceptual bucket that you can, they are, they're talking about this? And this is what's in there? So?
Yeah. So you're saying there's like, there's Rogers, there's Goleman, there's Batson? And it's sort of like, what what are these different topologies? Are they different, like buckets of how to where each moment of empathy might fit into? Or how do we think about these, I think, is what you're asking.
Yeah, so I guess I'm thinking, Where do we go? What's sort of the methodology here to sort of explore this? So yeah, yeah, I feel heard. Yeah.
Yeah. So kind of, you're just like, wondering, where do we go from from here? You know, like, how do we? Yeah, and then you said you better but I guess it makes me wonder, you know, what, um, is there any, like factor analysis that's been done? Like, almost like, you know, Has anyone taken all the studies and all the different topologies that are out there? And said, Well, here's one thing that they all have, you know, you know, if they all had these three things, for instance, like that sense is slightly more overwhelming than the others, because there's eight of them. And they're so the difference between each because I think it's because he's coming from a more academic place are so nuanced, and so they're so subtle, whereas the difference between like Goemans three types are, you know, it's there, they're a little bit more. Maybe something that someone that wasn't involved in the field of psychology at all, take and kind of embody a little, a little more easily.
So you're saying or I'm hearing there is that Bateson is, you know, being an academic, he's getting so nuanced, and that's going to be difficult for the average person to sort of grasp all those nuances. Whereas Goldman's is something that's more easily accessible for for probably the average person and also, is there any almost like a meta study? Not maybe not a meta study, but, but something that's gone through all these different definitions sort of pulled out the, the essence of each one?
Yeah. Yeah, sort of said like, okay, there's all this work that's been done, but all of them have something related. To empathic concern or warm, sir? Yeah. So, I don't know. So that's been a question that's been in my mind that I haven't. As we've been talking about this that I haven't gotten out yet, is there? Is there anyone that's like, done a statistical analysis to try to highlight what. But even if there was like, I don't know that that that still would just bring us to what most theorists think is true. Whereas I like you kind of think there's a lot to be learned from the actual phenomenon itself from like, actually experiencing it and trying to to work from that point. So I think I'm sharing that confusion of like, where to start and how to kind of go about thinking about it again. Yeah.
So the sort of statistical analysis is going to be more of an academic sort of an approach versus the more clinical or phenomenology phenomenology approach of the sort of something not so abstract, I guess, to accurate that my abstract, very abstract versus a more experiential or phenomenology approach.
Yeah. And it can be, it can be really helpful to, to engage in a matter of process where we're talking about our experience of empathy, because I think I started to what, as I started to say, when I was first starting talking, when I was first trying to empathize with patients and talking to people about it, I would say what I was trying to do and what was going on in my mind, and then, and then something so simple, like, Well, none of that was actually said, you know, but the patient doesn't know that, or it wasn't related to them, you know, was useful to me, it's like, Oh, you're right, there's a lot that a lot of work that I was doing, or that I felt I was doing that maybe didn't get translated. So sometimes there's simple corrections like that, that I think people make mistakes, because empathy can be I mean, by definition, I think it's an emotion, it can be an emotional experience. So you know, you may you might be doing, you might be a little bit like. It's not like you're trying to solve a logic problem, it's not that easy. Sometimes you can make certain mistakes, or have certain blind spots or be affected in certain ways that you're not aware of. So. Yeah, I guess that's all for now.
I think I'm hearing that you're wanting to tie it in with what was your actual experience when you were first doing counseling, in your listening to people? And what was your experience there? And trying to tie in? Or maybe saying, looking at empathy from starting from the experiential, like, not starting with such a broad, abstract understanding about let's go into the details of the experience, and then kind of work back from from that experience? And, and maybe that it might have felt like maybe when you're first learning, you're sort of struggling? And maybe having a more experiential explanation of what's happening, would have would have helped you sound Yeah, maybe you're in to help others to to kind of be able to deal with these challenges of learning.
Yeah, exactly. Because I think people have learned to engage in certain ways growing up, and, you know, their families in their peer groups in their culture, they learn certain patterns, like some people think they need to they think empathy is about solving other people's problems. And so that's, that's a problem. So but they could be thinking, they're being deeply empathic by trying to get down to the heart of the problem and seeing how they can fix it for the other person. But that's, that's not you know, that that actually brings you out of empathy. And so you could be making mistakes, your heart could be in the right place, but you're making these pretty big mistakes.
So it's like I guess in the counseling room, maybe looking at it from the counseling, the people are coming in, and they they're bringing all their experience in their families and all that, like how they, they dealt with things and they come into the counseling and they think, oh, I want to help. And I'm going to listen, or I'm going to start giving advice or telling people what to do and they don't realize how that inhibits that might inhibit empathy. So I think you're saying this to stop With the actual what is actually empathy? Where is what's actually working? And then kind of work back to address me what isn't? Yeah, see?
Yeah, a few last points come to mind with regard to that you could also err on the side of thinking empathy is about giving somebody space. And so that, you know, obviously, you err in that direction, you make a whole other kind of category of mistakes over there. But a useful thing that somebody that a later teacher told me or advise me with was, imagine when you're working with someone, like you're just hitting a beach ball back and forth, just lightly hitting a beach ball back and forth. And that stayed with me, I thought it was a really good way to counteract this feeling of over responsibility for other people that sometimes, you know, trainees can come in with. And I think that the empathy circle actually teaches that how to kind of just it how to empathize in in a way that's like volleying. The emotional content kind of back and forth, and just being present with it.
So within the counseling experience, is that people could be coming in, they're listening, they're giving advice, which you know, is going to sort of block the empathy. But there's another aspect that sort of blocks empathy is you're just there, you're just this open, empty vessel, pouring into something like that. And, and that's sort of there's something sort of missing in that, too. And you're also seeing that the empathy circles since its reciprocal, it kind of helps address that. That, that, that sort of problem.
Yeah, either one of those imbalances, whether it's, yeah. I think those are both forms of insecurity that are that are, that are imbalances, basically, that throw the whole empathy process off kilter. So I know, there was a larger point I was trying to make there. But I think that's it for now.
Okay. Well, I think your point was, is that instead of starting from sort of all the abstract statistical or whatever analysis and the academic, all the models, instead of starting at that sort of high level, you know, approach it start from the actual experience, describe the experience and sort of work out from there. And you're starting to describe some of the aspects of what's not empathy, or sort of blocking empathy. And so that that's kind of the I think, the overall things like, hey, let's start from the actual experience of empathy. And then we'll work back on sort of defining it from from that point of view.
Yeah. Right. Exactly. By kind of what gets in people's ways. And you because you're starting with actual good structure, you probably you might not see those struggles in the way that I'm describing them. Like, I don't know, maybe you do. I'm curious to hear but yeah, there's certain things that can get in the way even if someone wants to empathize, they they get blocked by whatever patterns they brought in.
Yes, you're really looking at all the different blocks to empathy like you know, what is the empathy the list, but then what are all the things that are blocking it? And I think you're wondering, Hey, Andrew, and maybe do you know, those blocks empathy? Or, or maybe you just don't know about him?
So yeah, so I feel very hurt. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah, I really liked that. to It sounds more sort of personally engaging. To start with what what we see is empathy, you know, the experience of it, and it's, it seems more engaging, more insightful, versus the abstract, which I always struggle with. Yeah, kind of, it gets very dry and sort of technical feeling.
Yeah. But you're saying it feels more engaging to start from experience like more lively. This a little bit more difficult to start with the maybe definitions that are already out there feels like a little bit dry.
Yeah. And I'm very aware of the the blocks because we see them all in the empathy circle, right. That's what the whole training is about is how do you address the the sort of the block to empathy, it's like, I know that feeling like, you know, my mother is a person who just talks and talks and doesn't care if you're listening or nothing, you can't get a word in edgewise. So I know that feeling of just the stuff comes and comes in comes, it's never ending. And then it is to say, Well, why don't you say anything, and I'll start saying something that becomes a trigger. To start talking, I'm very aware of just kind of being a receptacle to, you know, this, there's just like, nothing you can say, because they'll just totally dominate the space that so.
So you're saying you are very aware of the blocks to empathy, and they do come up in empathy circles, but that you maybe I don't know, you didn't say this, but that you've experienced that maybe most profoundly in certain kind of relationships, where it feels like you're blocked from empathizing because of how the other person is, like, actually using you and their time with you. And they're just kind of pouring it. Right. emotional and verbal content, you're
that that, you know, the thing is beach ball, or ping pong, or whatever metaphor you use is really it because it's actually that empathic relationship, right? It's, and that's why I've gotten really, you know, resonate with relational empathy, because of the the back and forth nature of it, versus just sort of being a, you know, punching bag or a vessel that people just pour everything into.
Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying that's why you kind of resonated with the beach ball metaphor, or maybe ping pong would be good, too, but because, and that ties into the idea of relational empathy, because it's almost like, yeah, and I think I might have missed the last thing you said, the,
what was the essence of it? Yeah. So. So yeah, the, I mean, there's so many blocks that empathy to there's, there's that, and I hear that a lot from that people come into the empathy circle. And it's like, I do all the emphasizing, you know, nobody listens to me. So it's a really common experience out there that people who are sensitive to listening, they just become this, they kind of get taken advantage of. And there's something healthy about being able to share where you are to be otherwise, you kind of start losing yourself. And it's, it's painful, there's something painful about it, too.
So that's, you're reflecting that, like, you get a lot of people coming to the empathy circles that have this experience of always seeming to always be the one that's empathizing with others. And so and it can be very painful to, you know, kind of have that repeated experience. And you can get to start to feel sort of taken advantage of,
yeah, so that is the empathy circle itself is the simplest process I found, for really addressing a lot of these problems, you know, it really, it addresses that problem. It's also when you've got multiple people there, another aspect of empathy is seeing two people in an empathic or in a dialogue and being the person outside, so that doesn't really get so talked about as the observer. Right? So that's sort of expanding the empathic relationship. So I don't know from I just find the empathy circle, just it just covers a lot of the blocks to me if people stay in it. Yeah.
Yeah. So you're saying, there's lots of blocks that come up, and that the empathy circle, the way it's structured, really, like addresses those or prevents those in the way that it's set up? And as long as people stay engaged in it, they'll see that it, it will address that. But behaviorally, there's, you know, out in the world, there's things that pop up that do block empathy.
Yes. So, kind of like thinking, Okay, so we're talking about empathy. What is the, the, the phenomenon itself, right? It's like, somehow there's something it's like, it's hard to even put the I mean, there's this term presence, like, Hey, I'm really present like I feel a sense of presence. You know, when you're listening, I don't feel like Oh, I gotta compete to kind of be heard or something. So that causes some relaxation. in me, and I'm sure I'm going to be heard to my satisfaction. So there's something about that. That space that is, I think kind of needs to be named somehow or, you know, it's almost like it's almost like the air that you can't see it. We're seeing everything through the air. But but it's you can't see it somehow, because it's just so ubiquitous or something or something. Something that I'm trying to address there that. Yeah.
Yeah, it's something that you're trying to address that you that cannot quite be pinned down in words, maybe. But it's a presence that you feel from the other person when you're being empathized with that elicits in you a sense of confidence that you're going to be heard and a sense of relaxation? And that's actually really, what I'm hearing from you. Is that so that's an important part of empathy.
Yeah. Yeah, well, it's sort of that empathic state, there's sort of a state that kind of relaxed it with the oxytocin, it's, you know, the oxytocin there synchronization, and with the synchronization. I mean, is, is, is sort of that relaxation that happens, you know, from the oxytocin getting released or so, yeah. Yeah, I gotta think about sense, or something I'm trying to, it seems like there's some vocabulary needed in that space, you know, there's, in that empathic space to make it really accessible to people are Oh, yeah. So,
so how to in so you're wondering, it sounds like like how to stay in words, or how to describe in words with certain vocabulary, that's that. thing that happens when someone's being present with someone else, and they, you know, maybe have a release of oxytocin that can feel more present with themselves than the other person?
Yeah, so trying to get to like a core, you know, a core simple definition of empathy. So for me, it's been the sensing into the experience of someone else. At its core, it's the sense it's sort of like a sensing in process, it's sort of a presence of sensing into somebody else's inner world, their world, there being maybe a sense of sensing into their being.
Trying to get a core definition of empathy, and you're starting with this idea of sensing into which it sounds like might be connected to that presence. Not exactly that, but it's about sensing into another person's core.
Yeah. And like Rogers is talking about sensing into their inner world. You know, that see, Isa is using the metaphor of that people have like an inner world and you're sensing your way into that inner world in that space. And he's using it as well in a sensitive way where you're not scaring them, you're, you're not sort of pushing them, you're being sensitive so that they feel comfortable. Okay, with with you being there.
You're comparing kind of what you're saying to what Rogers was saying about, like sensing into another person's internal world, but in a sensitive way, not in a way where you're pushing or doing anything that would suggest you're not a safe person. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's sort of the core. And then there's other aspects of, well, there's self empathy, and how do we relate that and I think the empathy circle again, is, is sort of a framework for holding self empathy. So as you're reflecting and listening to me, I am sensing into my experience, which I would say and sharing that with you, or my insight, or, and that is sort of a self empathy and just you empathizing with me creates a space for me to sense into, into more of myself.
Yeah. So you're saying the empathy circle actually can work as a framework for self empathy? Because in course of being actively listened to, it gives you the capacity to more deeply kind of empathize into yourself or Yeah,
and I had that experience when I was sick. at a cafe with someone who was just kind of learning the emphasis empathic listening and, and I was just listening to him listening, listening. And at the end, he said, I've never felt so deeply herders and creative in my life. So yeah, yeah.
Well, you are, you're about to kind of say more about it. But like, I was just going to reflect that back that like you had that experience sitting with someone at a cafe and you were doing this empathy circle with them. And after a few iterations, they just felt like, very surprised and kind of how hurt but also creative they felt as a result. Yeah, there's
something about when you can share the felt experience or what's going on in you and you're able to bring it out into the world. It kind of releases something, it's sort of has that that I think was the word you use the magnetic imagination, it was inside with some word that you had you were using last time, intuition, intuition. Yeah, there's something you're tapping into that felt intuition. And there's a sort of a creativity on it in that
you just say, like, as a result of being listened to or heard you, you're able to tap into or hear your own intuition and creativity in a way that you otherwise wouldn't be able to. Yeah,
yeah, I feel fully heard.
Yeah, I'm thinking about that as well, that brought me back to the last empathy circle that I did on Friday with you, Lou and Celine, and and that I think self empathy must play a role. I mean, I know it plays a role in all of this, but even in the framework that you're because I think, before we started talking, I was thinking about, I think about empathy and a little bit of a different way. But I see that in the empathy circles, and in the framework, you're talking about it. There's also there's an identity building component to, to just being tasked with sharing, going from listening to sharing one's own thoughts. Oh, listening, being open, and then kind of reorganizing one's own thoughts and one's own self around that continually. There's something really profound about that, I think.
So you're seeing a profound, something profound about the sharing the listings, the sort of the dynamic, that there's sort of a reorientation, sort of, with the sense of identity of who you are shifts, and that creates sort of a, it has a sort of a profound significance.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's rare enough to feel heard, to have the experience of feeling heard but but even more rare to go from attempting to deeply listen to someone and then and then being listened to and in quick succession. So the so yeah, I'm trying to think about how that might pertain to a typology of empathy, but I'm just I'm just kind of agreeing that self empathy has to have a place in that that that's has that has to be there to some extent.
So looking at a typology of empathy is there's these different aspects. There's a self empathy, the empathy, the identities, and how do all these sort of fit together into into a typology? You know, bringing in all those stuff? I didn't, yeah, who's different aspects.
And it occurs to me right now that the therapist or the empathizers past, there's no way that that doesn't that that doesn't play into their abilities to empathize. Because if I had a bunch of unresolved issues in my life, and I've came to an empathy circle, chances are that I would hear from several people that hit that would just manage to hit upon one of those things that was unresolved. And so what happens in that case? Well, it's going to be really hard for me to listen to them because I'm going to each time that they talk about that I'm going to have this whole emotional activation happening in my mind. And it's going to be hard for me to also probably speak because I'm gonna have to like, work my way out of that kind of state of upheaval, and kind of rebuild my sense of self through my own share. And I may or may not be successful in the process of doing. So if I, you know, I'm really kind of working through things to that extent so.
So what you bring to the table, so to speak, or to the circle, is going to affect the quality of what happens in the empathy circle, if there's something that you hear that's going to upset you or trigger you or affect you, or bring up all those old memories, that any so you're kind of just looking at what do people bring to it? And how how does that affect the quality of the of the empathy?
Yeah, and I'm thinking, if self empathy is about understanding the self, and like, and understanding what might not be, what might be a little bit distressed within oneself, and then working one's way out of that, if that's part of self empathy, which I think it is I'm not, then that would be hard if you had a lot of things that were not resolved, and you were trying to do this work. And I think that that would be a place where a lot of blocks would come in.
Yeah, so you have a lot of unresolved tensions things in your life, and then you try to come into an empathy circle, it's really going to affect sort of the, the quality of your presence or how you relate in the empathy circle.
Yeah, and one, one more thing, that one of the biggest things that's a block to empathy that theorists talk about blocking empathy is shame. And so if anyone says, you know, something that gets close to that shame, then it's, it really cuts off connection, like, by definition, shame, cuts off the connection between you and other people quicker than anything else. You know, I, the seeing I turned inward, like there's all these like beautiful definitions of shame, like it was part of, you know, my dissertation. So I remember looking at all these different, really beautiful metaphors for shame. But in every definition is it just cuts it completely obliterates the connection between yourself and another person. So like nothing else.
So we're kind of like looking at the different things that blocked that empathic connection. And one of them is his shame. And that's one that is pretty potent, I guess, for blocking that empathic connection.
Yeah, so I think that's all for now. Right now. I think I feel heard.
Okay. So yeah, we're getting a whole list of blocks to empathy here. So So I'm saying there's the the empathy is, is often I see it sort of defined in an individualistic, I brought that up for an individualistic terms like you are going to be emphasizing with someone, here's what you can do to emphasize with, with someone and have sort of that individual, it seems it's it's seen from one person's point of view, versus relational empathy from the relationship that's happening of, you know, the, the people talking or the observer. And so it does seem to me that that trend, at least, you know, as mentioned by Judith Jordan, dad talked about it, the relational empathy have focused on that. And so I do think there's a way to see that, that that's kind of important aspect.
Yeah. So you're saying there's another way to look at this, like we, Judas Jordan talks about relational empathy or mutual empathy. And there's, there's always like, in the empathy circle, there's, in addition to the two people, there's the observers, and so, like, bringing our attention away from the two individuals involved to kind of the group or the surround or the whole relation, the relational field. Seems like it would be important.
Yeah. And then with that seems a bit going against the grain, like, you know, it's like our culture is kind of like work. Let's define it in these these individualistic terms. And I've had huge discussions. And as I reach out to all these authors who wrote books, there was one author, he wrote a book, The Dark Side of empathy. And he laid out, you know, systematically all the dark sides of empathy. And we had two long, you know, recorded conversations about that then, and it was it was all things like what you'd start off with, like, you know, you just Listen to someone and you just take in take in take in. And he says, that's a problem, right? Listen, I you know, so because it's seeing it again from the individual is like, Oh, we got to stop empathy because you're just a receptacle to other people, you get sort of kind of over overwhelmed. And it's so it's a different view, if you see that, or if you see the relationship, and you see that, hey, there's actually instead of being too much empathy, there's not enough because it's not on boat, it's not the relationship, this not empathic was a lot, but
right, you're saying that, like, it's a little bit going against the grain to look at the whole relationship, but that it seems necessary, because there's books out there, like against empathy and the dark side of empathy that are, you know, maybe have definitions that are more commensurate with the kind of taking in of emotional data in a way that, you know, leaves a person a little bit like a receptacle? And yes, of course, that's not good. So it would make sense that people would be against that, but that's not to your mind what empathy is.
Yeah. And they always bring up I think we talked about that a little bit to the torture, right? Like, oh, the torture needs empathy. But again, that's not the relationship, right? It's like seeing it from the individual torture point of view, that they're just sensing into how they can create more pain. And it's not like about the relationship, hey, what's the level of empathy? I'd say? It's pretty low empathy, you know, for the person receiving the torture, you know, so.
Right. So you're, so that's a good example. So you're looking at, like, when people talk about the torture that has to have empathy for the victim? You know, well, from the tortures mind, yeah, they have to know what's going to be painful and traumatic. So some people might say, That's empathy. But that's because they're thinking about it more individualistically if they're looking at the whole thing, you know, maybe even asking the victim? Of course they wouldn't. They're not going to feel
heard. Yeah. Yeah, so there's something about empathy, and action, because they're all you got to take action. But in a sense, there's, there's something between action and empathy, in that, that any action that is taken has to be empathic would have to be mutually negotiated. Agreement empathically, negotiated agreements, for example, if I do conflict mediation, you know, first to hear what what, you know, what was the conflict? And you kind of explore that, with Why do you feel now about it? How do you feel about when the conflict happened? Why did you do what you did? And then when that sort of explored after a couple hours, you say, what do we do now? And the solution is negotiated together. So So that's like, a full empathic sort of relationship with that negotiated agreement of what we're going to do.
Yeah. So you're saying that a lot of people define empathy based on the action that's taken afterwards. And this is another way that definitions of empathy could fail, because you're saying that it's not just any action, any old action is actually kind of drawing upon the conflict resolution kind of framework, like it's got to be action that's mutually and empathically arrived at by both participants, it has to make sense within the context of that empathic connection.
Yeah, because there's always this is saying, like, Oh, you have to have this empathic action or empathic concern. But a lot of times the empathic concern, the so called, which I don't think it's a good turn. It's just I feel concerned for this person, you know, because I'm worried about them, and I'm trying to resolve my worry. So you do sort of actions that are not really what the person wants. I mean, you know, that it's just like, you're just trying to alleviate your own pain. So it says the complications of what is a real empathic action. Right? Yeah.
Right. So it's, you're talking about, I think, empathic concern and that that involves, like taking it empathic action. And if that feels very complicated, because it's that involves this whole other set of issues or questions around what makes an action empathic versus not
Yeah, you know, I feel heard Mmm hmm.
It's it's just, I'm finding, I think that that learning to be therapists is just a different context than creating a culture of empathy. But I do agree that any definition of empathy feels like it shouldn't be able to fit into both contexts. So, um, but it is I'm finding myself, I think it's valuable to have that definition. Be individualistic, because I'm drawing from my own experience, just training and also training others. There, there are definite deficits in an individual's capacity to, I don't know, maybe you could put it as rather than there's deficits in an individual's empathy, you could put it in their capacity to participate in relational empathy. That's another way of putting it. Yeah.
Yeah. So there could be in terms of definitions, there's the the they have a deficit in empathy would be one way of looking at the other is they have a deficit or a block to a relational empathy, which would be kind of a little bit different.
Yeah, but I like that. I like framing it in that second way. Mmm
hmm. Yeah.
I, because I, it's interesting, because I had, in my experience of thinking about this I, I was working. I was I, I struggled with this question, is it an empathic process between two people or empathic process between people? And what does the therapist then do? Or do they navigate it? Do they participate in it? Or do they facilitate it? And I finally came to the point where I said, well, the therapist is inherent has an inherently has responsibility for timekeeping, they inherently have kind of response, more responsibility for what goes on in the session. So I'm going to say that they actually facilitate the process. And although I never, like had an argument with anyone around that, it was all in my mind, it felt a little bit controversial in my mind, even because it feels weird to say that someone facilitates this process versus just participates in it. Yeah.
So you were trying to create an understanding of what the therapist role is in, in the in the in the counseling session? Are they just listening? Are they there to emphasize or you know, what, they're really their role. And you thought it's really just to do timekeeping and, and to sort of facilitate this, there's a process here that they're just facilitate the process.
Yeah. But they're sort of in charge of the process. They're in charge of kind of making sure that the process goes as well as it can for the patient themselves. So and then an empathy circle, they both people might be free to go into their own self empathy to the same degree, and to have a transformative, same level of transformative experience. But the therapist isn't quite that isn't doesn't really have that liberty, or or I guess that's a judgment I made that maybe they shouldn't have that liberty, they're getting, they're being paid for service, so that, therefore, they're trying to facilitate that experience for someone else. Mm hmm. So And right now, I'm kind of wondering about that.
Yes. You're kind of like wondering about, you know, what is the the therapists sort of role in that? If you're seeing a there's facilitating a process, maybe there's different facets of of empathy, and they're responsible for a certain aspect of it. So in facilitating that, that aspect of it?
Well, they're trying to facilitate the patient's self empathy. And yeah, like as the patient feels into their own experience and regains their balance, the therapist is also kind of feeling into their own experience and regaining their balance, but I think most of us would want to work with a therapist that is mostly balanced, not mostly out of balance or
Yeah, so the therapist role is to facilitate the the patient clients, self empathy, their own internal X colouration, and if it's good for the therapist to be grounded, balanced and not sort of out of balance in the process.
Yeah, I think some of that self empathy is is important on the therapists end. Because it's, it's a reciprocal process in a way it has to be. But yeah, but I think the therapists should remain on their feet as much as possible.
Good for the therapist to be grounded and on their feet and build the whole process and not be kind of lost in their own kind of world or emotions. Feelings. Yeah.
Yeah, I feel hurt. I mean, it's an idea that I'm trying to emphasize. Yeah.
Yeah. Always like how you say, I'm trying this idea. To say that, like, just let me try this idea out. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it comes to mind, since we're talking about client therapist, you know, Rogers and his work, it was I'd really look into that. And he does say that the, that for the therapist to sort of have that. I think he calls it congruence, but to be sort of authentic about what's going on for them, you know, it's like, oh, I'm, I'm really struggling here with stuff going on with myself, you know, and then continues listens to it. So they're open and transparent themselves? That that would that helps that. They're listening. And, and so the empathic relationship?
Yeah. So you're calling upon Rogers concept of congruence and saying that the therapist capacity to be authentic and say, what's really going on, even if they're really struggling, will help them to better listen thereafter. So that's really important.
Yeah, so to bring it into the, in a sense, we're in the empathy circle, we are covering the client therapist relationship to because as a listener, you're listening to the person who would in the client therapist relationship be the client. So you're, you're taking on that role. So it does vary, it does seem that the that client therapist fits into it into the framework of the empathy circle.
So you're saying like, the empathy circle does apply to the therapist, patient relationship, and that, um, especially, you know, if the, you know, you can think of the speaker as the patient, the active listener, as the therapist in any given turn?
Yeah, so I'm trying to bring it back into the empathy circle, you know, what we're discussing these. So we want that phenomenon, the empathy circle, how does that relate? So? Yeah. So, I mean, I have seen that is one sort of a drawback, again, I mentioned before of the therapeutic model, is that it's not like teaching the client necessarily mean sort of indirectly, how to listen themselves, and that they practice their listening and that they take that mindset out into the culture at large, it can happen just through experience, but it's not like an explicit intention of therapy, I think.
Yeah, so you're just pointing to that, that's one drawback you've seen is that there's no teaching of the act of listening to the patient during therapy, which is so yeah.
And, and I've mentioned it before about them, taking it to their family, or to whatever relationships, they have those skills that would help. It's more like, Hey, you're going to explore yourself, you're going to come up with some insights. You know, Rogers, I think says you see yourself differently. So I guess you see your identity, and then you go out into the world and from that new identity, you're, you know, taking action based on your new sense of self. So.
So rather, Rogers talks about that as a result of therapy. Patients might see themselves differently or have a new sense of self that they've been bringing out into the world.
Yeah, and that sense of action. That's everybody says, Oh, we got to have x, you got to have action, right? And it's like, there's no action and empathy. It's the shift in the who you think you are, is affecting the actions, all your actions in a sense, so there's, it has huge ripple effects in terms of the actions
right so The sense of feeling heard and seen has an impact on the person's, the the patient's actions thereafter has a ripple effect on? Yeah,
yeah. So that's that aspect of it I'm not quite sure where to go after that. So it's kind of seeing so that individualistic empathy versus a relational empathy. And I guess I would start with a definition, if it's, my own definition is the, the empathic relationship versus just empathy is a standalone thing that you do. So I think those are two different sort of starting points.
Yeah. So not knowing kind of where to go, you're simplifying things down to like, there's either the empathic relationship, or there's empathy that I think is that is the thing that you do that one does, I guess,
yeah. And so that's why I've really settled on the empathy circle, because it's a process for modeling, kind of a minimal viable process, you know, it's like, you can always be expanded on. But here's a minimal viable process that holds sort of that relational empathy. It's and there's, it kind of brings up like, hey, what's the, you know, empathy can just kind of happen naturally, or there can be sort of an agreement that we're going to, and there is sort of an agreement within the empathy circle.
So the empathy circle is a structure, but it also also an agreement by which empathy, like an empathic relationship kind of takes place. Yeah, yeah, I feel I've heard Yeah. Huh.
Well, zooming out to the empathic relationship, it strikes me that it's probably more natural for people to feel connected. Maybe that's why a lot of people go to the blocks of empathy, because I think there's a, I think that it's more natural to be connected with the people you're with. And yeah, so that's where my mind's at now,
to thinking about the blocks to empathy, because you naturally when you're with people, you want to have a sense of connection, kind of be with them. And so that's sort of a natural state. And then there's these blocks that come in.
Yeah. So I guess from that standpoint, like, I can see what you mean, like, when you say, sensing into somebody else's state, I think that's something that sort of naturally. I think I mean, I have a hunch that that's something that naturally happens, especially as you come to know someone just naturally, that I think people naturally do that. And I know, like, Yeah, I know, co Ed talked about empathy is like a very natural state. It's a very, it's like breathing. And so you know, there's others that have said that, you know, babies do a sort of emotional contagion type thing. So it does feel like that's where we start from left stuff to our own devices. If we have no other reason not to, I think we like are present with one another. We don't we maybe don't do the whole empathy process. But I think we have a good, we at least are at a start. In our natural state. Yeah.
So there's a natural state of empathy. We're sort of like biologically wired for this foundational state. And if there wasn't these blocks, it's kind of came up that you know, just be in that state. And as you develop deeper connections with people, they're sort of this deeper sense of, of empathy as well, as far as I think you're saying cohort cohort, also said, made it stays in natural state of being or human.
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I feel heard.
Yeah, that's my starting point, too. I think that's a good starting point. It's like, we're sort of like uncovering just the natural biological state, like you're saying, breathing. Like we just breathe. You can describe breathing, but it's just like this natural state that we're sort of biologically wired and we're sort of trying to take away the blocks to breathing like put the hand away, take the emphysema, the smoking, you know, whatever is kind of blocking getting out from under the water, you know, take the blocks away to empathy. Breathing.
Right? So your psyche expressing agreement saying, you know, it's almost like, if we go with the breathing metaphor, it's like, you know, yeah, we would, we would need to start taking those blocks away whatever blocks we had put out in front of us, we would need to slowly remove them in order to allow that to happen.
There is another metaphor, too though, as I see it as muscles, while we, we are born with those muscles, those empathy muscles or physical muscles, they can be trained and strengthened. So I see that as another starting point that they're not necessarily trained and strengthened. You know, as we grow up, it's usually they're kind of usually kind of pounded beat nah.
So there's another analogy that sort of brings us into other territory with empathy, which is muscles. And so we're all born with muscles, like empathy, but then oftentimes, build those upon those muscles to the fullest extent, but maybe we kind of beat we get beaten down or something or give no they're not, you know, I don't know, maybe worn down muscles. Yeah, they'll tap muscles. Yeah.
Yeah, so I like to metaphors, I think metaphor is is a good, I like playing with the metaphors. I'm glad we're getting into metaphors.
Yeah, metaphors are good. Good. It's good to use metaphors when trying to capture something like this.
Yeah. So we got the metaphor of natural like breathing and natural like muscles, and then things that are inhibiting that those natural biological states. And it does seem that we're sort of biologically wired for that empathic connection for just sort of general well being. To it's not like, Hey, you're just born this way. But it really helps to, to have this skill, this way of being so strengthened. And it's just more resilience for, you know, just dealing with problems in life, too.
Yeah, you're saying, well, it does feel like we're wired this way. And that it does, it's conducive to well being and resilience.
Yeah, which is a therapy that's like, hey, as all these people kind of messed up, but I can see the benefit of you know, you just go you have someplace to go where you can kind of be heard and understood. And you know, yeah,
yeah, maybe because it's not easy to get that sense of connection, you can see the utility of therapy, because at least there's one place you can go and sort of feel understood.
As well as therapy has been a space. I mean, I don't want to you know, is your field, I want to put it down. But there's, it's been a space, sort of a cultural space where empathy has been able to find a home and get a lot of research and exploration happening. These people have jobs, they it's kind of fits into the universities. So it's created a space for research and development kind of happen, it seems to me.
Yeah, it's also created space for work on empathy to be done to be designate have a certain group of people that are designated or that are committed to hearing others.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel heard.
Yeah, um, I like it's opening up a lot more space in my mind to think of empathy more as a, as not something that than an individual, not that I not that I really felt this way before, I still kind of share and piece it together. But it's not something that one individual makes happen with another individual. And in a sense, it is like, or maybe in a sense, it's become that maybe because of the society we're living in, it's like, no, I'm gonna focus on really listening now. And that's like this novel thing, you know, whereas, you know, if we're relaxed among friends and family, it's a state that, you know, you know, if I'm by like, when my closest family member is over there on the couch, I'm naturally empathizing with that person, like wondering, you know, if they're hungry or thirsty or something like that, you know, I naturally have that sense of feeling into their experience and actively listening to their response. So, it's not something I have to try to do all the time to listen, you know.
So that you're saying sort of individualistic view of empathy and the or the relational aspect, but also that you just sort of naturally, you don't say, Hey, I'm going to do this. It's like you just do it you Just are sensitive to what's happening with your family members or friends or?
Yeah, it was just sort of I mean, it's just, it's a little bit of a shift, I guess in thinking about it.
So I guess there's a sensing in I mean, I guess I can more be understanding of your definition of kind of sensing into it, because it does feel more of a sense, if you look at it that way. And from a scent, like from sensing into someone's state, I think imagination is like, it feels like a close step away from sensing imagination. And sensing feels very close to me, terms of how I experienced those two things. It's harder to get from like, anyway, I'll just start with that. Yeah,
yeah. So I'm hearing it from our discussion, you know, talking about the definition of sensing into starting to make more sense. And then you're the idea of imagination or intuition that you second see the relationship, but they're close. They're not far apart from kind of that. And so it makes more sense.
Yeah, you Yeah, it feels like those are in a type of empathy. Relational empathy, like those are all part of the same family like intuition, imagination and sense, sensory experience that feels very like that that feels like a relational type of empathy, something that naturally happens in the presence of people where you have a high level of oxytocin, maybe, like, close friends and family and things like that. Yeah.
Yeah. So you're saying the relationship of those, those the sensing the intuition, the inspiration, or that sense of those different words, that there's a relationship and it's making sense, and it's kind of relates to like, your just your experience dealing with family members and friends? And so it sounds like, Yes, I mean, at least you're having some understanding of where I'm, what we're, how I'm defining it, and having it's making you see how it sort of fits together and make sense.
Yeah, it's clicking in, it was weird how it started to click for me, your understanding of empathy, it started to click click, when I started to assume empathy as is. It's weird that I was coming from it from a place of, I guess, because sometimes you meet people that you don't know yet. And so you don't have that, you know, I don't think probably oxytocin comes comes into play until much later. And you're also not the task is not to empathize and be empathized with so. So it's kind of a different thing to start out with, when you're with someone you haven't met yet. You don't know their patterns, you don't know their the rhythms of interacting, it's just a whole new ballgame that and yet, you're kind of responsible for their experience to a certain extent. So it does feel like I'm starting even though you're saying it relates to the empathy circle, it feels like a different thing.
For Stanford, it's that you're, you have seen empathy in the, in the sense of getting together with someone who you don't know. And sort of, like in a client is a new client, you don't know them. You're, you're, you're, that's sort of like the starting point for empathy. And from that point, you're starting to sense into who they are. And that's a little bit different starting point. So from sort of empathic relationship, being there, yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. Empathic relationship, whether it be with someone you already know, or whether it be with someone that you're going to do some sort of a mutual empathy with, I think that even builds, like, you get the oxytocin type, calm feeling going, even in that short time, if it's supposed to be a mutual experience, it's, it's, it's just different. So,
so I sort of like how it sort of like that, who you are, and what your picture of the world is, when you come into it. If you see it, like, oh, I don't know who this person is, I'm going to listen to them, you know, empathize with them. Versus I'm coming into this relationship as a empathic relationship and we're going to try to create a more empathic relationship. So coming into the situation with those, you know, little different viewpoints can affect the other understanding of what's happening as well as is like how you act.
Yeah, I just this one last thing like, I don't know that. I don't know that it shouldn't be like that. I mean, I don't I that's an open question for me is like, should that be something that builds? It's something that builds in all relationships? So shouldn't that be the same for, you know, a patient therapist relationship? It's. But yeah, so I think that captures it for now, though.
So you're just I think I'm hearing is you're sitting with the question, should the it be, should we be coming into? Or should you come into a relationship with a client therapist was sort of this intention of creating a empathic relationship?
No, I think that's always good. I mean, I think that should always be the case. But I guess what I'm saying is, there's so much information you don't know at first. And so you know, even the first two sessions or three sessions are supposed to just be about collecting information. And so you always want to have an empathic relationship, but you don't know the meaning of, there's so many ways that people interpret things. And so expecting to also have an empathic relationship right? Out of the box, collect information, do all of a sudden, it's putting a lot of pressure on it. And, and sometimes, if we're defining empathy as an empathic relationship, that's, that requires sensing intuition and imagination, that it's something special that emerges over time, I think. So I that Yeah.
Yeah. So empathic relationship develops over time, you don't know who the person is, within the therapeutic context, it takes several sessions just to sort of get a sense of who the person is. And, and just to get sort of started with that. Yeah,
I feel hurting. Okay.
I'm coming to the time I've got it, somebody might be dropped in any moment. So I don't know for any sort of final debrief for insights or thoughts.
I think I shared mine, but what about? Yeah,
yeah, this is I like to what the starting from the experience and kind of working out like, Hey, what is really working with empathic understanding? And where are we coming from these? It feels a lot. Yeah. It just feels a lot warmer and more real than, like, all trying to understand what all of these theorists and academics have my head just, it's just like, Oh, God, I don't understand it. And that's what I like to be in sort of discussions. Like, I don't, you know, like, I kind of invite them to chat, right, so I can kind of hear them. It's a lot more enjoyable. And it's just so much more insight kind of comes out.
Yeah. Yeah, it was great. I think I do like starting from experience, I think you're right. And then kind of seeing, you know, who's what theorists have kind of said something similar? Yeah. Yeah. What makes sense going out from there?
Yeah, that's fine to do the empathic listening to practice with as it's like, oh, how do I listen better? Am I you know, so I can talk at some I was I enjoyed just talking about what was happening when you said, let's start with the you start at the last thing that was said and work back. And yes, all the nuances of how do you really, like sometimes I listen, it's just like, it's just such resonance, and the person just feels so heard. And other times I feel sort of, you know, kind of feeling a bit of a Yeah, not a confusion, but it kind of a stiffness or something in it.
Yeah, I know. Yeah. That's better. Yeah. I know. You're a guy. I always experienced it as very good. I think energy levels does play into it. So that's something to look at for me. But yeah, I think it's been a good experience. And we have I felt very hurt today. So yeah. Oh, likewise. Yeah. Well, have a good night. i Okay. Goes well, yeah. Thanks.
See you next week. We're good for next week then. Right? Sure. Yeah. To be continued. Bye.
