Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, can you contain your excitement right now?
I really, I really can't because this is such a long overdue guest invitation to come on to the podcast. But before I introduce our guests, I want to ask kind of an existential question to the audience. Like when you look back in your life, and you think about that one person who when they speak, like the world stands still, and they have so much confidence, and they have so much panache, and so much real humanity and so much freakin brains. Can you see that person in your mind's eye that they you just stop and listen? Because that's who we brought on the podcast today. Mr. Woodrow Rosenbaum, who seemed kind of lore to us, wouldn't you say that Jon, like we kept seeing him on LinkedIn and the things he would say, would like just make us think at a different level. And then we got to meet Woodrow. And he's the nicest most evolved human being. He's such a great dad, and somebody that just really fights for this sector. And so it is a true pleasure and honor to bring our good friend Woodrow onto the podcast during AI week. And he is the chief data officer at Giving Tuesday. And that is a big almighty title. And to talk about using data to power, a more generous world requires somebody that's going to have a more evolved level of thinking. And so we're going to stretch you all today because there is not a week that goes by that somebody doesn't ask us what is going on with AI and fundraising. So we are going to dive in today. But first, let me give you just a little bit of background about Woodrow. He's the chief data officer for Giving Tuesday, and he has been absolutely instrumental in shaping the global generosity movement, leading these groundbreaking research and analysis reports of individual giving behaviors, he leads the Giving Tuesday Data Commons, which brings together a coalition of more than 100 collaborators through eight working groups, as well as eight data teams in 50 countries. And he just got back from Kenya. So that was very interesting. And they do that to really understand the drivers and impacts of generosity so we can inspire more giving in whatever that looks like. He is also a member of the generosity commission research task force. And he serves as the co chair for Global Impact candidate has board of directors and was recently named a fellow at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at a little known institution known as the Harvard Kennedy School. So Jon, are you feeling intimidated yet? He's so real and so human, he's going to be your best friend. So he is about to keynote, the fundraising AI summit that I hope everyone has signed up for it's happening next week. And it's free at fundraising.ai/summit. Woodrow, welcome to We Are For Good Podcast, can you tell we're a little excited, you're here.
It's quite the introduction. I gotta say I particularly appreciate panache. So might have to add that to the bio.
You do have panache and I didn't say that you are also the best dressed man in the entire sector. So please do yourself a favor, get on the show notes page, look at the screenshot or get on YouTube and watch this video because Woodrow's got a great suit on Woodrow. Hi, it's so good to have you here. We're so excited to talk about really what's evolving in AI as it relates to not just fundraising, but our interconnectedness our work. How is it impacting gratitude, generosity connection? And but before we go into that, you know, we got to start with understanding who you are and where you grew up, like, take us back, where did little Woodrow come from and how did he get this brain for understanding data and human science?
So my, my background is in commercial marketing, I guess that doesn't tell you where I grew up. I grew up in Toronto, I am living in Toronto again. After moving around Canada a little bit but a Toronto is home. And I've been back for about four years now. And I got into this work really kind of by accident, having worked in commercial marketing from the perspective of understanding how to move markets, but from the perspective of it's look, it's it's about behavior change and understanding what what motivates those changes and what effect that has and in that sense, this work isn't that different from from what I was doing before. It is, in many ways, a lot more interesting and challenging. But it stems from the same place.
I love that we were marketers disguised as fundraisers. So I feel like that's one of the ways that we just felt kinship and talking to you. But I just love this perch that you have at Giving Tuesday. I mean, honestly, trying to wrap my head around how you even pull the data, among these disparate systems across the entire world has got to be one of the heaviest lifts that I can imagine. But you get this really interesting seat. And I think you can really speak to just the state of giving in this moment, I'd love to hear about what are the dynamics at play in today's giving environment? What are you seeing? And what's the data showing?
You know, one thing I just want to comment on what I get I get asked that question a lot. And I think for a lot of folks in the sector, they think of this as a weather report.
And now to Woodrow.
Like what's the trend, and they imagine that they have about as much agency over the results in the sector as they do over the weather. And one of the things that is really important, I think, for fundraisers in particular and in this context, but just folks on the social sector to understand is that we actually have a lot more agency. And there are negative trends in in some aspects of the giving economy right now. But those are not inevitable. So what are we seeing we're seeing broadly, generosity is common, diverse and robust. We are not seeing that people are becoming less generous, in fact that generosity is a lot more prolific than, than we thought when we were only measuring one thing, which was donations to nonprofits. That said, the nonprofit economy, the fundraising economy is suffering right now. And we've seen the long term trend of fewer donors with a brief interruption in 2020. And the more recent trend of not only fewer donors, but less money. And we knew having having observed kind of what happened on a macro level, that the consolidation of giving it to fewer and fewer hands really was undermining the foundation of support for organizations that organizations with a broad base of support from grassroots donors are more resilient to economic shocks. And we were headed into this uncertain economy with substantial degradation of that foundation. And that risk turned out to be realized were at the end of last year and into this year, we saw that the high end that we were relying over relying on started to pull back, so big donors giving less and that that has resulted in not just fewer people, but also less less money for nonprofits through their fundraising. But within that, despite this fact, there's still an enormous amount of generosity. And this is why we think that there's some that there really is opportunity for us to reverse those trends.
Okay, I want to thank you, Woodrow, I want to thank you for saying that I want to thank you for being human about those insights. Because I have seen people within this community and other communities just spiral when those giving reports hit, and they take it inside themselves. And the fear takes over. We already got scarcity mindset we're all trying to battle. And you even couching it in that way is incredibly helpful, because what you're seeing is, is I think accurate, an accurate depiction of what we're seeing on our end, which is generosity is diversifying. And it's diversifying, mightily and creatively. And interestingly, I mean, when I look at philantro-capitalism, and I look at what corporations are doing, and I look at the way people are investing in B-Corps, or in social enterprises or, and investing in ways that are not just financial and I think that that is an exciting change for us, because it means that we can have a richer relationship with the people who care about our mission, because we're doing more than asking them just for money. We're asking for story. We're asking for connection. We're asking for peer fundraising, we're asking for lived experience and amplification. And so when the chief data officer does not focus primarily on the financial components, and still says there is immense opportunity, I hope all of you out there, take that and understand that it is an opportunity to seize and so I want to dive deeper into this data piece because we're seeing that personalization. And the way you can humanize and see somebody on the other end is becoming the great catalyst for not only building community but building movements in the COVID 19 pandemic had this just profound effect on charitable giving. And I would just love to get your take Woodrow on how did Giving Tuesday adapt to the changes that that the pandemic created? And what data can you share with us about the response from donors and awards during this really challenging time in our sector?
There's so much to learn from 2020, not just around Giving Tuesday, but just all year round, it was this really weird year and things broke, in some ways that were really challenging and difficult to navigate. But also, one of the things that broke was the negative trend and participation in nonprofit fundraising, we really need to take a stronger, more careful look at what happened there. Because, you know, all that diversification you You described does complicate things. And I know we'll we'll talk about kind of how to navigate that for organizations and for fundraisers. But the key thing I want fundraisers to understand is that that diversification does not increase competition or scarcity. It's really the opposite the data do not support that we are in a scarcity environment, or that there's competition between organizations between causes between mechanisms for giving these things tend to be generative. The best indicator somebody's going to get do anything for good is that they've taken some other action for good. So hopefully, what that does is inspire fundraisers to to push the envelope a little bit and to think about their this as an opportunity to engage more and more often in more ways rather than an idea that they're somehow that that's how siphoning off support that they could otherwise get. 2020 was interesting from a GivingTuesday perspective, because we had two giving Tuesday's never done that before. We put GivingTuesday Now together, after some very rapid but broad consultation globally in four and a half weeks. And when I say we I really mean all of our partners around the world, right, who activated and and you know, your question about how to GivingTuesday adapt well, Giving Tuesday's co-created by 100 million people. It's many, many organizations 10s of 1000s, at least in the US, hundreds and hundreds of communities now almost 100 Country movements around the world. They're the ones that activate GivingTuesday. And what we do is kind of observe what is the best practice what is emerging? What are the trends that are coming out of this, something really interesting that happened in respect to the discourse around Giving Tuesday in 2020. because prior to that, by far, the dominant theme in social media driven mostly by nonprofit organizations, was donation. That was the most common theme in the discourse. That really changed in 2020. And it was still driven largely by the same organizations. And I think a fear of sort of bothering people who might be worried about their economic situation actually paid off for nonprofits in a big way. And so the the dominant theme in the discourse leading up to Giving Tuesday was community. And it was very interesting to see that in, in relation to GivingTuesday. Now in May of that year, that remain true through Giving Tuesday, at the end of the year and the following year. And that, that just that discussion about belonging and collective action was highly inspiring. And far from being like, that didn't distract from donation that made the donation ask and engagement that much more powerful because it was connected to what actually mattered to people. And I should point out, it wasn't just Giving Tuesday. So that year was interesting, because after years of decline in the number of donors, we saw an increase in donor participation that year. And although part of that was Giving Tuesday, Giving Tuesday was the end remains the single biggest day for donor acquisition, but lots of things drove donor acquisition and participation that year. So in August, it was racial justice in the US driving participation and giving moments, whether it's Giving Tuesday or something else was really key to getting that broader engagement and acquisition.
I mean, when a data officer like yourself that throws belonging back at us, it's like we're in company here that we can just really value align with because we see that and just the anecdotal piece of launching a company in the middle of the pandemic, two people are searching for that. And it's really worked for those organizations that are leaning into that. And so this is, you know, it's AI week, we're obviously focused, we're aligned with what fundraising AI movement is happening in the sector to just get some common language and common ideas around this and talk about things. There is a lot of opportunity right now to leverage AI tools to really enhance personal and personalization. But we're countering that with creating true belonging and creating true relationships. Talk to us about that tension. And, you know, what are some ways that people can leverage AI without maybe using it in a wrong way?
Yeah, that's I mean, the promise has to do with that'd be this diversification that is not competitive or cannibalistic is great. But it does complicate your, your job, we've been talking for a long time about the need for the sector to just segment more, which ultimately comes down to the right message for the right person, it's about personalization. And AI holds the promise of being able to navigate that better, the AI is only going to be as good as the people who are deploying it. And whether it's that or, or a simple, you know, old school kind of classification and segmentation. If we just keep giving people the same old message, we're not going to we're not going to be successful we have so at the back end of this, yeah, we can use AI as a much more sophisticated way of identifying our different types of supporter. But we have to back this up with an understanding that we need to give people a genuine connection to our mission and more ways of getting involved. And that's not something AI can solve for you. But it can definitely leverage that.
Absolutely. And I think one of the things we've talked about in relation to AI so often is that AI has a very difficult time being human AI has a very difficult time showing empathy. And those are the connective tissue that we need to attract someone and I just kind of want to share a little story because I, I want to commend you for how you're approaching this. And I think it's a very heavy topic for the sector. And we were at the AFP conference back in April, in New Orleans, you were there several others were there and a group of people came together, Tim Sarrantonio, Nathan Chapelle, Woodrow, I feel like you were a big part of this. And several people in the sector said, whoa, whoa, we need to really stop and pause and look at the ethics of using AI responsibly. And we all sat in a room and we had a very heavy grassroots collective conversation where there were many voices in it. And people were coming at it from the tech industry and from data and from people in the sector, people like us who are trying to socialize it with media, and you had just such profound words, I go back to that oracle that I said at the beginning, like when Woodrow speaks, we listen, because I think you're helping bring the humanity in insights into the data. And I want to thank you for that. And I think what most people are wanting to know, is what are those measures that are in place to ensure that we're all using AI responsibly, that we're using this donor data in a way that propels our fundraising campaigns because I'm going to tell you, I'm the first to say, I believe in AI, I believe it's going to help us in many ways, and we use it in our in our business. But there's gotta be some controls on there to ensure integrity, and ethics. And I just would love to get your hot take on this for everyone out there who's asking this very same question.
Yeah, there are really two risks to manage here. And they're kind of in tension with each other I'd like one is the risk that we're going to do harm and and in fundraising, and the the use of donor data in ways that are responsible like that's, that's a component of this that is really critical, like not to be minimized. But we go beyond that to think about like the the deployment of charitable interventions. And the potential harm that can be done if this is if these tools are used, tools that are that are, by their nature opaque. That if they're if they're deployed without safeguards, and intentionality and thoughtfulness that there is there is real potential for harm. On the other hand, this is an example of is the nonprofit sector going to get left behind in another technical revolution and we need to navigate both those risks. We can't We can't ignore what is a really substantial shift in the technological landscape and 10 years from now be you know, as behind as we were on all other things. And this is moving faster than then then we've seen other advances, right. So so even more critical that we catch up. So, you know, I think fundraising AI folks have been really thoughtful about let's have some guidelines that we can agree to that that help us to ensure that that we're working in a way that does contemplate the harms that can be done and takes and and that we agree on certain practices. And recognizing that that needs to be a living document that we're, we have so much to learn about these tools right now that we can't assume we're going to get it right now. And we also can't take two years to figure it out. So we're going to do it as we go. And that's okay. That's that's the nature of this. The flip side, the other the other component of this that I think is really important is we need responsible experimentation laboratories. And that's what we're going to be launching. officially at Fundraising.AI is an environment that allows people to engineers, developers, researchers to access tools, to iterate and to figure out what works using real world issues to questions and challenges that nonprofits are facing around the world, using real data assets that are carefully curated so as to be responsible. I mean, yes, with the goal of learning useful stuff for the sector, but most most importantly, learning how to do this, where does it break? And in what ways in an environment that's not deployed in the field, but is open to interrogation? I think somewhat one of the ways of kind of sum up the answer to your question, Becky, is, we need to be thinking about responsible use guidelines in a way that is collective and collaborative, and not disconnected from the use and experimentation of those tools. But rather, seeing those two as two sides of a coin that inform one another on an ongoing basis.
And I love that you lifted just like the risk of not getting in and having these conversations, because you're absolutely right as two you know, nonprofit folks across from me today that sat in higher ed and health care, we felt the effects of being a decade behind in the systems and kind of the processes. And so if you're listening today, like pour into these conversations, gonna be a fly on the wall, just to get used to what the things are being talked about, because we can all start just leaning in and adding our voice. So I want to talk about data for a second and or data. Let's ask our Canadian friend, what's the correct term over here, but the most important thing is that we use it and I love that you went there of like, you know, instead of looking at just the trends, what is right what's happening within our own file, what's happening within our own organization. And so like, I mean, we're coming into year end season, I know our friends are starting to get trying to sync up their campaigns, they're trying to think about how to activate people. How would you encourage us to walk into this to make data informed, data driven decisions and all of our strategy, not just for year end, but moving forward? How do you advise the organizations you work with?
A couple of couple of thoughts come to mind, one is, question your assumptions, we see a lot of received wisdom in the sector, that it just not borne out by the data. And I was I was talking to a researcher recently. And we were talking about the fact that that a lot of fundraisers kind of they'll they'll read, they'll read a report or some data or findings or recommendations, and they'll believe that it's true. But they'll think that somehow they're the exception. And I think that that's part and that's, I get it, right, like we are all, you know, we have our unique shops and situations. But what that tells me is that organizations need to be experimenting more. We know that something like 82%, I think was the last figure we had. But the vast majority of organizations that participated in GivingTuesday said that they use that as an opportunity to try to try something new. So that's what I really encourage organizations to think about if you want to be data driven your own data is best. So look at what's coming out what we're talking about the recommendations that we're providing, and, and then run a test test more and experiment more, because that's how you're really going to turn that data into action.
Brilliant. And, Jon, I feel like you've said this so many times on the podcast, you know, don't get so hung up on these global reports that you're not looking at your own data, that you're not looking at your own engagement signals that you're not looking at several years of Giving Tuesday behavior and watching trends. And if this is new to you, I want to tell you, it's completely okay. That if it's new to you and you want to try it, I would I would recommend it. We'll drop this into the show notes. We interviewed Sam Baker on the podcast, who went through how to literally do A B testing on your data back and forth. We will put we will put together a little playlist for you. For anyone that wants to do this and experiment more. And Woodrow I'm gonna throw you a curveball, you don't know that this is coming. But we can't have the data officer like the Chief Data Officer of Giving Tuesday on without asking you to tell us about upcoming Giving Tuesday and I want you to give our audience I want you to tell me something they need to stop something they need to start, and something they need to continue this year. Let's make it super tactical or broad, whatever you want to do.
Okay? Stop, stop leaving people out. Think of your engagement as an opportunity for people to, to have agency to make good things happen not as some sort of unwelcome solicitation. So think about everybody. Don't over index on large donors, but also don't leave them out. Particularly for your Giving Tuesday engagement. People want to be part of the fun. So let them be part of the fun. I guess that was a start and a stop. Yeah, I mean, that inclusiveness is key, right. And we know that not everybody is being engaged as much by nonprofits part. Now I know nonprofits worry, they think well, but if I just keep asking people in the same way for money all the time, then they turned me off. Yeah, right. So start giving people more opportunities to be part of your mission.
So good. I mean, we just had Celeste Flores, who did a beautiful job talking about just like the momentum that's happened, the community that's around this, and got us jazzed. So we'll link that up in the show notes. If you're looking for your GivingTuesday playbook. We're really cheering you on to do that well this year. But Woodrow, I mean, we can't have you in the house and not just talk about the heartbeat of why we do what we do. We carve out space and all of our interviews, to just give you a moment to take take us back to a moment of philanthropy in your life that has really resonated with you and really, maybe touched you in some way. Will you take us back?
Something that that comes to mind is comes from my when I in my commercial career before I was working in the sector. I was I attended a fundraiser for Robin Hood Foundation in New York. And they did an a really remarkable job making something that is huge and flashy and flamboyant really hit home in terms of what what is the impact of the work that the organization is doing. They managed that balance so incredibly well. And one thing that I really remember was data driven, they they looked at the results of a program that they were running to help women, single moms reenter the workforce. And they found long story short that one of the key factors in that pilot program not being successful was that those women didn't own an alarm clock. And that meant that they were the day before their big interviews, were staying awake all night, and then having a commute early in the morning and not performing well. And that just getting them a $5 alarm clock made a huge difference among some other adjustments. But that that was a key aspect of ensuring the success of that program. And what was interesting to me was, first of all, how, how well researched and how they were really looking at the experience of the beneficiary in the program to tell them what was working what was not. And then secondly, just how that brings home. Here's this, this event that's raising 10s of millions of dollars from A list celebrities and big Wall Street guys. And what what do we learn, we learned that the difference between success and not for a lot of people is as thin as a $5 alarm clock.
I mean, this Woodrow could have come in here and talked about any of the multimillion dollar gifts, I know you, you just have such a periphery. And the fact that it comes down to $5 talks about one, why our work is so important, why it has to be accessible. Why it has to be human. I'm sorry, I have to throw another story on there. Jon, you won't know who this is. And that's not a dig at you. But there's a really famous ESPN writer, and sports writer named Rick Riley, who would have a column in the back of the magazine and and I remember this column one time reading it when I was a kid and he was like, Hey, I just found out that millions of kids are dying in Africa because they don't have a net, a malaria net around their bed. Hey, y'all, can you just send $10 to this place. So we can keep kids from dying and having these parents bury their children we're gonna call it Nothing But Net. Nothing But Nets, which is so $65 million later. $10 at a time. I mean, it reminds me a Manuela Testolini in A Perfect World Foundation, little by little a little becomes a lot. And so we could not have known that without data. We could not know about alarm clocks if we don't dig into the data. So Woodrow knew you're gonna come in here and blow our minds you always do like wrap all up with one good thing what would be one good thing you could give to the audience for today can be AI can be data it can be giving it can be you as a human being, what do you got?
My hope is we come together as a sector that that we see the current trends as a call to action. And we recognize that this is this is our moment, this is our moment to shift. It's not optional anymore. And that's scary, right? We can't over index on large donor stewardship. Uh oh, what does that mean? It means that we get to do something a lot more fun, a lot more true to our missions, a lot more inclusive. And that, that that's the key to success. We can launch that right now. And I think if we do, we're gonna have see not just a turnaround, but a much more resilient sector moving forward.
Okay, Woodrow point us to all the ways people can connect with you, we even talk about your incredible agency with intent. I mean, the work that she'll do through there, how can people find and follow.
Next time, next interview.
So I'm on LinkedIn. So that's how you can reach me directly and then GivingTuesday.org/data for all the things that we're doing and there's going to be lots lots of new material launches, we're reading, redesigning our whole interface with the world tight now. It's there's exciting things in store. But that's where you can find us.
Woodrow, come back. I mean,
Anytime!
Talk to us, sit in the perch as the Oracle, tell us what it is. Because there's just something about the data guy coming in and talking about humanity that gives me incredible hope, just really looking forward to what you and the team are going to bring in terms of insights from not only this fundraising summit, but also from Giving Tuesday this year. So for anyone who missed it at the very beginning, please go to fundraising.ai/Summit, please sign up. We are so honored to to support and sponsor this incredible Summit. Let's lean into this moment, the current is here. Let's lean into the current and let's be a part of making this one of the most vibrant sectors and times of our history. Thank you, Woodrow.
Thank you both so much.
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