Quiet Rebels Podcast Episode #128: Mitigating Mental Health Risks in Our Business with Shulamit Ber Levtov

11:19PM Aug 30, 2023

Speakers:

Mai-kee Tsang

Shulamit Ber Levtov

Keywords:

mental health

isolation

privilege

entrepreneurs

business

hearing

talk

mental

listen

love

folks

indicator

today

feel

lead

non violence

part

rebel

share

running

Hello, my wonderful Quiet Rebels! this episode today is one that I feel like we all should have heard right at the beginning of our businesses, because we are talking about integrating an intentional mental health plan into our businesses. Now I'm very excited about my special guest today who is Shulamit Ber Levtov. And she's here with me today to talk all about that. So Shulamit, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today.

Thanks, Mai-kee for inviting me, I'm really grateful.

Or just even like hearing your voice. It's just so calming. So lovely. So Shulamit, me, could you let us know? Because this is because mental health like I'm not sure if you've seen this in your own clients in your community, that in the past, I feel that mental health was more of a backburner thing, kind of like, oh, I can get to it. I can versus a front facing priority. So I'm curious, like, have you seen any shifts over the last couple of years in the industry of online business around the restructuring or priority when it comes to mental health?

Well, you've pushed a button, right? Because the first thing that happens, I noticed this kind of like surge of actually straight up anger in me around what I'm seeing happening? Because it's actually twofold, right? So there is something good about it. But the first thing that comes is the rebel in me that just grits its teeth and goes around, because there is so much more talk. But not much more actual practice. And why that bothers me is that it's very crazy making our gas lady to live in a culture where everybody's like, Oh, yes, let's talk. Oh, yes, mental health matters. Oh, yes. And then to be a person who's experiencing issues, challenges, and not be received in a way that's congruent with all the talk around it. I saw a meme last week, it's okay. You know, there's a lot of talk around, it's okay. To not be okay. That has been a meme that's been going around, and someone added a critical take on that. It's okay. And this is a this is a disability activist, it's okay. To be not okay. Unless you can't be productive. You can't conform to standards. You can't you can't you can't, right. So this all comes also back to privilege where the more access to privilege you have the more okay, it is to be not okay. And the less access to privilege you have, the less okay, it is. And so to come back to your question. The more access to privilege you have, the more it's okay to talk about mental health and to have mental health challenges and mental health problems. And the less access to privilege, the less okay, it is. And just like there's been like the corporatization of environmentalism, and of LGBTQ stuff, and breast cancer and all that stuff. body positivity in quotation marks, right? That has that has co opted something that's really important, I see a lot of CO opting happening at the corporate level at the media level around the mental health conversation. But on the flip side, sadly, with a pandemic over the past three years, that mental health in quotation marks, people's mental well being and the impact that the downside of things. For many folks that privilege that stopped insulating them from that. And so and so we see people now experiencing more impact on their mental well being at struggling more. And so there there is more openness at a personal level, for folks who are talking about their personal experience. And that I think is really important. Because having to front around your emotional challenges or your challenges around your mental well being is itself does have a negative impact on your mental well being right. And so the fact that there's like a little teeny add little window in which some folks can start to share their own experience is a very validating and healing thing for others to witness. Right so it's like a double edge. So trends And towards more openness around mental health, there are two sides to it.

Oh, wow. Okay, so I'm glad that this was the first question that asked, because clearly, there's a lot to unpack here. And what I'm hearing you say that the thing that, you know, gets the blood boiling and the the anger activated within you, is the performative aspect of having conversations around mental health where it's like, you only talk about it, you rarely do it. And that's a huge problem. Because, you know, outside of mental health, there are many things that people only talk about, but not actually do. And the active embodiment part of the practising part is where the real work is. Right? So I can absolutely relate to that frustration that you witnessed out there, as you're talking about about, are you actually doing it as always a question of integrity. And I love that you brought up the degree of privilege that we all have access to, in different different variations, really, kind of paint the picture for how much we feel like we can actually let out, and how much we can, quote unquote, get away with, as well as, is really important reality that we need to

face. And privilege itself. You know, there's the concept of social determinants of health. And those are the external factors in like, it has to do with your socio economic status, but also where you live in the world, your access to food, and housing, and all those kinds of things. Those are called the social determinants of health. And so they're understood as impacting people's physical health. But privilege is a social determinants of health, both physical and mental. Right. And so right away, the impact of systems of oppression on a person will mean that they're already at a deficit in that regard, right. And it also means that they're at a deficit with regards to access to support. So it becomes, you know, it's just important to acknowledge that these, that this is a very complex issue, right.

Yeah, very complex. And I'm curious to hear your take on for those of us who do have, quote, unquote, more privileged, because that's really relative, right? Like, what what's more more privileged in compared to like, compared to who? So I'm curious, for those of us who do have a certain amount of privilege wherever we deemed to be on a certain scale? What can we do with that? Aside from acknowledge it, because we can acknowledge it like how do we not? What I'm looking for, kind of like take advantage of it exploit do not mean like, what good can we do with our privilege is what I'm really trying to ask.

Well, I'm not an anti oppression educator. So this is just a lay answer, based on what I've learned from the anti oppression folks I've learned from, and it's to leverage our privilege, right. So and, and as you say, Privilege is relative, it's up to each person to identify what their own privileges are, and how they can leverage those. For me, for example, one of the ways I leverage my privilege is people are willing to listen to me. And because of that, you know, because I'm a white Westerner, I'm educated English is my first language. White White, I should say, white passing my centre, because I'm Jewish. So under some circumstances, I'm not considered white. But I do want to acknowledge that I have proximity to whiteness. And because of that people are willing to listen to me. And because I have a degree and I'm licenced, and blah, blah, blah. And so it's up to me to bring to the table the things that people would not otherwise hear. So for example, I watched a documentary last week called deconstructing Karen and I'll put the link, I'll give you the link so that you can share it with folks. And the way that the way it works in it's called Race to dinner, it was a documentary about the race to dinner movement. And these two women of colour, a South Asian woman and a black US American woman, host dinners with white women to talk about race. And what happens is, the two facilitators share about racialization and the impact of racialization and their experiences with it in the US. And the white women around the table, debate them deny, you know, like how dare you say I'm racist, you know, they get all hurt, and they're, you know, becomes what's called what has come to be known as white fragility. And then, the hosts of the dinner the white women who've invited these two facilitators for the race to dinner Event will reiterate what the facilitators have said. And the other white women at the table will listen to them, where they will call the facilitators. Oh, you're nuts. Oh, that's crazy. Oh, you're angry? Oh, you're exaggerating. And then when the white women say the exact same thing, that the two facilitators have said, the other white women won't say, Oh, you're crazy. Oh, you're exaggerating, Oh, that's too much, oh, you're just angry, they will listen and entertain the ideas. And that's an illustration of use of privilege, right. And that's kind of how I'm taking my responsibility to leverage my privilege by saying things that people that that because people are willing to listen to me that I that I have a responsibility to say stuff that people maybe don't want to hear, especially and in particular, in my case around mental well being mental health and mental illness. And that would be kind of one possible example of how folks could use their privilege, but I'm like, not the authority on this. So my invitation would be to be curious about Well, so what are my privileges? And how can I use them?

Considering that was a lay answer, like I really appreciated it as a woman of colour myself. So um, because that scenario that you just described about, when you're the one, when you're the less privileged one in the room, for example, then you're saying something, and it gets ignored, but when someone else who is more privileged than you says the exact same thing, why they are listened to is incredibly frustrating. But it's also better than not having that point come across at all to the people you're trying to reach. So I can appreciate the because like, I acknowledged, I do have privilege myself, I am a British citizen, for example, I English is also my first language, I am university educated, I have a Bachelors of Science degree in psychology, and etc, etc, you know, have access to the internet and all of those things, right. So I do, I do acknowledge my own privilege to and I feel that my role in in this acknowledging that privilege is also providing a platform for voices who, I'm not able to speak on these issues that I know that I can't, because it's not in my scope of practice, and being able to reach those who need to hear this. So this is, you know, a part of my role as well like that, that intersection between where my privilege is and also where my marginalisation is, and because again, we all have that to varying different degrees. And it's, it's a journey, it's a journey to navigate, for sure, but I appreciate your answer, and I can definitely relate to it as well. And please do link us to that blog post the deconstructing Karen and, and that documentary like I don't know if we have that here in the UK, but I will search for it and see what we can do. But yeah, and I realised towards the beginning, I jumped straight into the question, but, and even though your bio is going to be, you know, where this podcasts gonna be published, I would love to kind of backtrack for a moment and ask a bit more about how you got it, how you became the entrepreneurs therapist, because I've seen you around for a couple of years now. And we've only recently connected people that I've always known off, you know, but this is our first time I really deeply connecting. So I'm just curious, for those of those of my listeners who don't know yet, could you share a bit like backtrack a little bit about why you came to talk about this in the first place? How did you become an entrepreneur therapist?

Well, I started school, university in social work, but I got diverted and, and ended up doing some other things. And then became, in my 40s became injured in the work that I was doing at the time and had to do my own occupational rehab. And during the course of that diversion, where I did, I was employed. I also did things on the side, I became a yoga teacher, a certified yoga teacher, I became a certified trainer and nonviolent communication, I became a certified focusing teacher and guide. And so I was always working with a particularly women on their personal and spiritual growth. And when I became injured, and I had to do my own occupational rehab, it made sense to go back to my having done that on the side, all along the realm of like, mental wellbeing and personal growth, to go back to my roots and go back to school, get my Master's in counselling, and go into private practice. But as you probably know, from your bachelor's degree, they don't teach you anything about business. They teach you how to be a good like for me, I learned how to be a good clinician. We learned how to be good technicians we knew we learn our art, we learn our craft, we learn art clients, but we don't know anything about running a business. And the author of the E Myth says something, he has a phrase that I really like, we're technicians having an entrepreneurial seizure. Because we say, for example, the mechanic says, I, I don't I, I'm a great mechanic, I don't need a boss, I can just go out and repair cars on my own. And sure, he's a great mechanic, or she's a great mechanic. But they don't know about marketing, they don't know about running a business, all that stuff, right. And so that's why a lot of small businesses fail. And I knew that. So as soon as I left school for my craft, I jumped into business training, business coaching business programmes, and hanging out with other entrepreneurs. And I also eventually opened a group practice of my own. So solo, you know, being a solopreneur, or freelancer is one thing, but running a business with associates. And brick and mortar is another thing, it's another level of business stuff. And I experienced for myself, the emotional ups and downs and the enormous stress of running a business. And as a mental health professional, I had a particular lens on what I was going through, as a mental health professional also hanging out with entrepreneurs, I was the only one. And they would I was privileged in a privileged position, because folks would tell me things that they wouldn't other entrepreneurs that they wouldn't tell their fellows. Right, because they they know, they know, I'm a therapist, so they're more willing to share somewhat more vulnerable things. And I became aware of like, the depth of the impact on mental well being that entrepreneurs experience that solo practitioner, solo solopreneurs, self employed folks, business owners, right. And it became clear that there was a need for someone trained in mental health and mental well being, who also understood business, who was available to support entrepreneurs, with their mental well being, and with the ups and the emotional ups and downs of running a business. And that's how the entrepreneurs therapist was born.

As soon as you said, like, oh, when, when you got your training, you became, you know, they don't teach you about business, they only teach you about your craft. And I was like, Yep, there's a reason why it's taken so long. Because I actually trained from when I was 21 years old, and I'm, like, for anyone who actually doesn't know my age, I'm actually 29 Right now, and I'm turning 30 this year. So it's taken me a long time, because of the lack of business training. And which is, which is what all of these years have been, you know, learning what to do, what not to do, whilst maintaining the, the efficacy of my craft as well, because you know, I can't lose that in the name of learning how to run a business, because that's the whole point of running the business in the first place. So I'm really, I'm really glad that you've managed to found to find, like, a kind of intersection between the two, where the the two sides can coexist and really blend together. And I can see that the more that you're showing up, you are sharing, like how we can find our own integrative ways. And that's the whole point of our conversation today. So I'm super, super grateful that you are here with us to talk about this. So thank you so much for sharing your story. And now that we can get into the quote unquote, meat and potatoes of anyone who's vegan or vegetarian, like please insert your vegan slash vegetarian. Yes, the beans or the the tofu like, I love tofu myself. Anyhow, let's get into like that part of the conversation. So I know this can be a very broad question. So I'm very curious where it could go. What are the most common risk factors that you see in entrepreneurs? What are the kind of Yeah, what are the most common risk factors and mental health you see in entrepreneurs today?

Well, I, I will speak from my experience with in my life with my colleagues and with clients. So this is not, you know, gold standard research. The thing that people mentioned the most is isolation. And coming back to the social determinants of health, social isolation is a social determinants of health. It's that the research shows that, that it has an impact on everyone. It impacts entrepreneurs and self employed folks in a particular way. The nature of our isolation is unique. The first is that as entrepreneurs, we are few and far between, like online, we're everywhere. But if you look around yourself, if you look on your street, or in your neighbourhood, your area, the majority of folks have jobs. You can't you can't just Go to the nearest gathering place and easily find another entrepreneur or self employed person, although more so now since the pandemic, but regardless, and then if you're found fam non binary, or a woman or a trans person, these, you're even more isolated as an entrepreneur because it's hard to find your folks, right. So there are fewer, the the pool gets smaller, and our isolation becomes greater. Another aspect of our isolation is the fact that we are surrounded by if we're service providers, or we're running businesses, we're surrounded by people. But we're alone because we're the leader. So we have clients, we have a team, we have associates, we have maybe employees, but we are holding space for them. So there are people everywhere, but nobody's holding emotional space for us. So we're lonely amidst a crowd, you know? And so our isolation, you know, it's our, our, our kind of isolation is unique. And over, Oh, yes. And then we're often we're working very hard. We're also very busy. So even if we do have peers, it's hard to get together, it's hard to find time, right? Or make time. And so this has such an impact on folks. And without, because there's a lack of support available for us. Like access, there are barriers to access, because cash can be an issue. Entrepreneurial poverty is a thing, right? We're not all Jeff Bezos. And so you know, having disposable cash to hire a therapist, or even visit cash within the business to have a coach to have somebody who gets mental health and entrepreneurship like they were. Even if we wanted to address our isolation by getting seeking support the access, there are many barriers to access, right. So our isolation is, I would say extreme really, and, and difficult to address, even if we wanted to. And so that I would say is the biggest, it has the biggest impact. It's the factor that has the biggest impact on our mental health, outside of straight up cash flow. But you know, that's not a mental health issue. That's a business issue. But it is important to recognise that, you know, when you if you don't have enough cash in your business, you're going to be shitting you're going to be is it okay, if I swear? Yeah, hope it's okay. Yes, you're going to be you're going to be shitting, right, you're going to be freaking out. And that that also has an impact on your mental well being. But it's, it's not a mental health factor, like isolation is.

Okay, so when you started talking about this isolation, I suddenly became aware, and I suddenly became aware of how true this is. Because when you said, Oh, everyone around you has jobs. So over the weekend, like at the time of this recording, over the previous weekend, so me and my friends, we still have like sleepovers which sounds so it sounds like you know, somebody that you only during childhood, but now we are fully grown adults, and we still have sleepovers. And there was so many times during that time together, where they were talking about their experiences in corporate life and, and the kind of co workers that they had to deal with and the drag the dragging of their feet, that they have to get up for their nine to five or things like that, all the things that I cannot relate to, because I'm extremely grateful that I've designed this lifestyle for myself where I get to choose, most of the time, I get to choose who I associate with, I get to choose who I work with client Wise, who is in my orbit who is in my inner circle. And so I'm very grateful that I don't need to deal with people that don't have to, like of course, if I'm if I'm speaking with someone about a constructive way to fight criticism that's very different, versus someone who's just full on being a troll, you know, trying to just spreading hate for no reason. But like, I can escape their proximity from blocking you know, and I have very important safeguarding procedures, and cybersecurity measures in place to for my literal sense of safety in my body. But all that to say that I honestly couldn't relate to a lot of a lot of their conversations. So all I could do is just sit there and listen. And then when you said about what it's like to be a leader, how isolating that could be because I, I am a manifester, in terms of human design, and we naturally lead the way for things that haven't been done before. So that is a lot of questioning of what what everyone else is thinking or doing and kind of going the other way and that is very lonely. And so I found connecting with fellow manifestos who are in this kind of leadership position, like how do they feel about it and we all share the struggle of what it's like but like it We're going against what everyone else is already doing. And that is terrifying because, you know, I'm because I'm trained as a copywriter as well. So I'm going against my training because my training says only write the things that come up in the voice of customer data that's in, like, it needs to be informed by other people all the time. And being a manifester is actually the opposite of that. It's like no, you are informed by your, your creative urges. That's where your ideas are, and you're sorry, you're not informed by creative, your creative urges are things you need to inform others about, and therefore, basically leading the way blindly. And as you know, I really shouldn't say that that's, that's ableist language, okay, you're leading the way without an already drawn map. Right. So you're trusting the guidance of your inner compass. And that's not really something that we are taught to do, we're taught to follow more than we are to lead. And so basically, big revelation, big revelation that so isolation, and what I'm hearing from you is that the this sense of isolation amplifies depending on which kind of lived experiences or identities that you have, depending on which groups you are associated with, by nature, or associated with by choice. Your isolation can apply as a result of that.

As an entrepreneur in particular, yes. Right? Because I mean, let's say that you're a non binary person, and you're hanging, you've got your non binary community, but in that community, how many of them are entrepreneurs? Right? Yep.

And now it's making so much sense why, like, honestly, this okay, a shout out to Gabby waltz, because she's actually one of my best friends. And I met her during the time of a mastermind. And we were instant friends. And I knew that I wanted her to like be like a bridesmaid, or someone in that like, high ish position. On the day of my wedding, for example, versus friends who I've had for over a decade, like nearly two decades now. I'm like, Why do I feel so much closer to, you know, Gabby for some time? And I realised, it's because I don't feel that sense of isolation with her because she gets it. Right. And the kind of conversations you have a wildly different from those who are in my literal circle, like, quote, unquote, in real life, like, basically not on the internet. And I just find that really fascinating. Like, why do I feel a sense of closeness to people who are actually literally geographically further away from me? versus those who are geographically closer? Why do I feel that distance, and it's because of this isolation that you think of, and that you're speaking of being an entrepreneur is a very isolating way of being and it's only amplified by the pen, that the pandemic, amongst other things, so Wow. Like mind blown. So you shared about the risk factor. So how can we even get started? I noticed it's like a huge umbrella kind of question. And so again, I'm curious about what's going go, how can we even get started with integrating integrating mental health practices into our businesses to really kind of safeguard ourselves and have it to be very intentional versus something? That's all? I'll just deal with it? If it comes kind of backburner approach? What can we do to put it on the front burner?

Well, it's January, and in January, what are we doing? In general? What are entrepreneurs? What's the big theme around December, January, q1 for entrepreneurs? What's the big thing

is New Year's resolutions, goals.

That goals planning, right? Business Planning? Yeah. And so every business in theory has a plan. And the plan includes a financial plan, a marketing plan, a cash flow, forecast, all those things, right, we do this for our business. And I assert that that same model can serve us around our mental well being. So we can identify, there's a there's a, just like with business planning, there's the complex theory, and then there's the actual practice. So the complex theory is that you have this beautiful business plan and you do quarterly planning, and then you do monthly planning, and then you do weekly planning, and then you do your weekly check ins, you can make a mental health plan in that same way that is laid out that same way. So you can identify and then I'm going to talk about the simple way because if like as entrepreneurs, the last thing we need is another complex thing to implement. Right? So if so, if when I when I'm talking about this beautiful plan, and you're and you're listening to this and going I'm shutting this off, because I cannot handle one more complex thing. I'm going to explain the theory and then give you a simple version so that you know you have you can find your way forward hopefully with this. So the principle is that for your mental well being, you can understand what your key performance indicators are what your leg and lead indicators are. So a lead indicator is the thing, the tactic, the thing you do that leads to an outcome and the outcome is your leg indicator, it's the result, right? Tactics and results. So you should understand. And if you can, you can take some time to reflect about what are the things that have an effect on my mental well being those are the lead indicators, the external conditions, but also my what I do, for example, my like what we call in quotation marks self care, but it's so much more than manicures, it's really about like, for example, you're, in my opinion, a shining example of holistic self care, because your concerns for safety, and for good boundaries. That's true self care, right. And so in my opinion, that's an example of a lead indicator, you have structured your business in such a way that it protects your mental well being, that's a lead indicator, and you know, that if, for example, one of those things were to fail, then you would know, the lag indicator would be that your nervous system might be dysregulated. And you might have to take a couple months break. Right? So having knowledge of what are the things that I need to do for my own self care? And what are the external conditions that have an impact on me? And, and, and having them somewhere formal, so that you've reflected and understand what they are? Then you can look at? How do I want to feel this month? What do I need to do this month? To make sure or to increase the likelihood that I'm going to feel the way I want to feel, and and to understand what your lag indicators are, so that the symptoms of I'm not doing well, or I am doing well. So that then when you do your weekly review, you do just like with your business, you celebrate your wins, you look at what worked and what didn't work? And what are you going to do more of? And you because you already know, when you sit down and you can check your lag indicators. You can say, like, what are the symptoms in quotation marks, and you would have a checklist and you can just go, Yes, I'm sleeping well, yes, I'm able to concentrate, like you know that if things are going poorly for you, and everybody's different, right? Not everybody's sleep is affected. But if you know, for yourself that sleep is an issue, you're going to check in on your sleep on a regular basis. Right? And if it's not going well, then you check your lead indicators. Oh, well, there was a lot of stress in my business this week. So no wonder I'm not sleeping very well. Self Compassion, right? Not why am I not sleeping? Well, what's the matter with me, but rather, I'm not sleeping? Well, oh, and I know why. Because look at the lead indicators, I didn't have enough social interaction, enough support this week around the stress I was experiencing, I need to make sure to call my therapist or to get on the phone with my biz bestie. Right. So you, you as you review the past week, and set your quote unquote, goals for the coming week. And so it can be as complex as you want, or as simple as you want. The simplest way to is to put your mental well being on the table in every business conversation you have. So you can just say to your coach, hey, listen, the first five minutes of every conversation, I just want to do a quick mental wellbeing check in with you. And the coach doesn't have to be trained in any way. coaches know how to listen, all the coach has to do is listen for you while you do a quick run through. And they can reflect to you if you've said things that you then missed, you didn't hear yourself, say they just feed it back to you, or your biz bestie can do the same thing as well. You can just say, Hey, this is our goals accountability meeting, but I want to make it take the first five minutes to just check in on my mental well being and see where I'm at with that. Right. So I have a handout, which I will send give you you know, you can put that link in the chat.

Like if there's something that we can do to refer to this.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's it. I usually do a four hour workshop where we do this work together. And I've just given you like five minutes on the four hour workshop. So I just want to say if you're feeling overwhelmed hearing this No wonder because it's a lot. And so and that would be that would be that's my answer to your question about how do we put our mental health our mental well being into our businesses as entrepreneurs.

I love this because it's already templatized being something that we already do in our business, but just in a different context. So at the time of This recording is tax season, at least in the UK anyway. And so I've had I have a very clear bird's eye view of where my expenses are, where's my key income drivers and all of that. So I can plan ahead for, you know, my future expenses. Which tools and software's do I keep using? How much do I need for that. And what I'm hearing from you is having that same for sites for our mental health and actually documenting out the big expenses, that that come as a result of doing certain actions, taking notice that so that way, we have a more responsive way of looking at our mental health as opposed to a reactive one. Because when we don't plan, that's when we're reactive, and we do things in the moment. And if we don't keep track of that, then we're never going to know why is it that we feel drained all the time? Or what why do we feel like X? Like indicator, you know? So I love that. And thank you so much for offering a resource as well, and letting us know that there is a workshop. You know, should we want to take those further steps. So, let's so look, so okay, this is a lot to take in. But we now know that there is a way to get started. So thank you again, for just me, you made it easy, just by saying like, look, we already do this for a marketing plan for our financial plan. So why can't we do it for mental health?

What we can write? Yeah, plans are how we anticipate risk and mitigate it in our business. And it's the same I love that you use the word template, it's the same idea transferred from business to mental well being?

Yes. Okay, so we've already got the skills, we just need a different perspective that we are exactly skills to set off. Okay? All right. So I know that that this conversation can have a part two or Part Three, part four, moving forward, but as this is, this could be like a part one, we might have like a, you know, another one later on down the line. But for anybody who is just kind of listening to all of this for the first time, and they just need a grounding spot like an anchor, right now, what would be one sort of key takeaway or a nugget of wisdom, you'd love to leave our listeners today?

Two things. The first is mental health risks are inherent in entrepreneurship. They are inherent in the work that we do. So when you have struggles, emotional struggles, struggles with your mental health struggles with your well being, there's nothing wrong with you. It's the natural consequence of the work in which you are engaged.

Ah, that felt like a huge sigh of relief. I can't speak for anyone who's listening, of course, but I can imagine that they may feel something akin to that. Because, yes, we went into business probably for freedom reasons. So that we could do things on the schedule that we like. So we can have a degree of choice, a stronger degree of choice than if we were to have a day job or a night job, whatever kind of job outside of this. And yes, there are ups and downs. There are pros and cons to every decision that we ever make. And what I'm hearing you reflect back to us and said, This is a part of it. And that's okay. And we can work with that. You don't have to work against it. We don't have to kind of like shake our fist angrily at our humanity. You know that we're not robots, though we can't operate 24/7 365 There is a reason why the conversation. That's the reason why I bought this to the podcast today with you. Because we know it deep down, but we need to hear it a bit more. So she lent me your insights today are so valuable as I just want to say thank you so much for coming onto the podcast to speak about this today. And for anyone here I'm sure hasn't. For anyone who hasn't gotten to know yet. I'm sure there's a lot of them that will from now on. So I'd love for you to share where can we connect with you after this interview.

My website is entrepreneurs therapist dot click. That's the easy way to find me rather than having to worry about spelling, my name and all that stuff. You can also find me I'm the entrepreneurs therapist on Instagram and I love the thing I love the most about Instagram is the DMS. I love that we can connect with one another in this way. And so my door is wide open for folks to jump in the DMS and let me know what comes up for them having listened to this are questions that they might have things they want clarification about from what they heard today. Those are the I'm also on LinkedIn. So you're welcome to and there's a DM function on LinkedIn too. So I'm totally game for that I I'm an extrovert in the sense that I'm energised by speaking to people and So the doors open, I'd be happy to have a chat.

Yes. So be sure to drop all of those links or so to work out rebels I've got you don't need to worry about spelling. I'll take care of that though. We have the link, as well as the deconstructing Karen blog post the resource that you mentioned about helping us plan for our mental health moving forward. And I'll also ask you to like send me the link for your workshop. So for those who are interested in whether it's an evergreen thing, or whether it's something that we get on the waitlist for, I'll make sure that that's in the links, because I'd love for my quite rebels community to connect with you in that way. Should they want to take that next step with you. Thank you. Very welcome. All right. So as we start to wrap up, there are two final questions that I have for you. Are you ready? Number one is what makes you a quiet rebel.

Well, one of the things I this is revealing a little bit of my, my, my own insecurity from like childhood, really, I would look at the cool kids. And you could you could see who was the cool kids, you could tell by the way they looked right. And I still to this day, don't look like the cool kids. But inside, I'm so different from the folks who look like me. And that's part of like, I'm like a I'm like a, like a fifth column or something. I look like my looks conform. Right. But on the inside, I really don't. And so that's part of what makes me a quiet rebel. And the other thing I would say, makes me a quiet rebel is I espouse and practice to the best of my capacity, principled non violence. And it's a very strong and courageous stand as it's taught not to say that I'm strong and courageous per se. But in Kenya, non violence teaches that it's courageous, to be nonviolent, and that it's really going against the stream to be to espouse and embody principled non violence. And that is the quiet and rebellious when the quiet and the other side of the quiet and rebellious part of me.

Oh, I love that. I've never heard anyone speak about principled non violence before. So I definitely need to look that up and just look more into that because that just seems so resonant. And what I'm hearing from you as well is the nonconformist side as well not not for the sake of giving the middle finger for for what the status quo is, for example, but it's just because it just doesn't align and that's okay. You know, you can coexist with the who you deem as cool kids, but who knows, someone will look to you and see how you are and deem us cool. Get that you probably don't realise all of the session. You never know. I think you're pretty cool about

Thank you. All right. So

that's what makes your quiet rebel and my final question to you is, what is one weird fact or a fun story about you that no one else knows on the internet

i Well, many people know I love to sing. But what is not well known is that I really love old timey and bluegrass and barbershop and that I actually sang in a women's barbershop choir. I would do it again if I could find one now but I just I love Harmony. Harmony is like to be in the midst of a group of people singing parts. There's a thing that happens the harmonics if people are familiar with it, where there's there's like the sometimes we call it the angels where the angels come where the harmonies are just right. And there's like this glittery glimmery kind of like presence that just hovers above and around us you when harmonies come when it's just right. And I just love which is why I love old timey and barbershop and bluegrass because of the harmony I love singing harmony.

All that that beautiful picture that you just painted for us that the glittery. I wouldn't quite call it a shield but like you're you're basking in this glow, you're basking in the nursery presence. And I can I can visualise that not just a glittery part but the feeling that that arises as a result of that the literal harmony the harmonisation of happening between us people, let alone the voices. So that's a magical picture. And leave like if you do wind up joining another another would say barbershop barber shop. Yeah. If you if you do join another one, and if you record anything, please do let us know. Because I would love to, like, just listen, because I find that really fascinating if I had the voice for it, because I do actually eventually want to take thing singing lessons. But that's for a future goal. But anyhow. But I'm always fascinated whenever I see a group tonight as well. It's just a beautiful thing to witness. And so good to know that maybe someone will

allow me to twist your arm because all my life, I wanted to take voice lessons. And it was always something that I said was for a later time when I had money. And I discovered that it actually doesn't cost very much and it is transformative. I was I forget 50 something. Finally when I took voice lessons, and I wish I had done it in my youth. And so, you know, within your own context, let me friend in a friendly manner, twist your arm to consider maybe doing it sooner rather than later. Because it's transformative. It's a whole it's a whole spiritual personal growth journey above and beyond the simple singing.

Alright, I will take the twisted arm and like by the i Do you know jujitsu. So if someone did twist my arm in the back, actually, do you know how to get out of that? But I wouldn't know I'm on the floor. No, no, no, no non violence, non violence. I only do that for self defence if someone genuinely had the intention of attacking me, but because I knew that yours is friendly intention. I don't need to resort to that. But I appreciate that notch forward. And actually, I'm doing a body version of that in terms of because I'm learning different styles of dancing. And one of my one of my dance teacher said, If you couldn't speak, what would your body tell you? And I thought that was a beautiful expression. And I thought yeah, what does my body say? Does it scream? Doubt? Does it scream confidence, or exploration? Someone? Because I I'm very self critical. Like when I want an answer. Oh, I didn't do that. Right? Is that have been a mental health journey, actually. It's like, oh, how much does my negative self taught come into it? But a friend of mine who's watched me grow, she said to me, you have a very sensual way of dancing. So there doesn't need to be a distinctive movement between one and the next for you. So what I used to think was like Messi and blendy in my move, and she was like, no, no, you have a sensual way of dancing. And it's mesmerising to watch. And I was like, Oh, that's so nice. So we're on our respective journeys of access, different type of our voice. And so I really hope that you find the people that will, you know, be your next barbershop and I will let you know when you don't need to twist the arm anymore. Like, hey, I'm on a journey, but with the actual voiceworks. Anyhow, Shulamit, meet you had been a tremendous guest, thank you so, so much for being here with us today. For anyone again, who wants to connect with you. I'll make sure to pop all of the links that you've mentioned today, how to connect with you and the additional resources to so thank you so much. Thanks.