50 Years of Imagining Radical Feminist Futures: A Conversation with Angela Davis and Adrienne Maree Brown

12:30AM Nov 18, 2020

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Hey y'all.

Welcome to the UC Davis women's resources and Research Center 50th anniversary panel. We're super excited to be kicking off the celebration of our 50th anniversary with this amazing event with these phenomenal folks. I knew pretty early on in the planning process for this event that we wanted to have some type of intergenerational conversation. I know for myself, as I've moved through activist spaces as I've raised my daughters. I've noticed that there can sometimes be this generational divide within our community. And I've noticed the wisdom that I've been able to gain from engaging with my two little black girls that I'm raising. And so, I could think of no one better than Angela Davis and Adrian Marie brown to be in conversation with some of our own students and staff members today at UC Davis. Before we introduce the panelists I do just want to take a moment to acknowledge the land that we are virtually gathered on UC Davis is situated on the land that has for thousands of years, been the home to the penguin tribe. Today there are three federally recognized tribes, kachel d band of Winton Indians of the colusa Indian community, cuttle d who went to nation, and your God he went to nation, the pad when people have remained committed to the stewardship of this land over many centuries. It has been cherished and protected as elders have instructed the young through generations. We are honored and grateful to be here today on their traditional lands virtually. I invite you all also to familiarize familiarize yourselves with the original stewards of the land that you sit on. So for those who don't know many of you don't know because we've got about 3000 of you here in the zoom and countless more on the Facebook. I am Cecily Nelson alforque, I use shear they pronouns and I serve as the director at the women's resources and Research Center here at UC Davis, I'm going to toss it over to our moderator in a second who will introduce our panelists. I do just want to do a little housekeeping. Before we get started so if you have any questions for the panel please use the q&a box we will be monitoring the chat but as you all can see with a lot of us on here, moves pretty quickly. So please put your questions there, we won't get to every question but we'll do our best to try to address, ones that come up a lot. And also if you are on the Facebook, we do have folks who are monitoring the Facebook comments and we'll be copying your questions over so feel free to engage that way as well. We also would like to invite you as we kind of move into our introductions to introduce yourselves if you feel comfortable in the chat. Share your names your pronouns if you're comfortable your you know shout out your organization. Because really, this is about, you know, building upon our collective wisdom today we have two phenomenal scholar activist badass women who I really admire. But the point of today is also to recognize how we all have that within us. So we invite you to share your wisdom to share, you know, shout out the work that you're doing because I guarantee we've got some amazing organizers in this space. So I'm going to go ahead and introduce our moderator who will be connecting you all with our panelists. We have Vanessa siguiendo. She is a first generation college graduate, mommy scholar and proud Daughter of immigrant parents in her final year of doctoral studies study in the PhD in education program with a language, literacy and culture emphasis here at the University of California Davis. As a mother of two little humans. Me too. She is devoted to creating educational systems that not only empower student parents and caregivers, but also transform educational spaces as family sites. She has a for 2019 dissertation fellow and focusing her doctoral research on historicizing not the next cultures and higher education. Vanessa go ahead and take it away.

Thank you so much, Leslie for getting this started, or what I know will be an exciting and profound conversation this evening. Our staff has been counting down the days until we had this conversation with our panelists and so we're really thrilled that all of you have been able and decided to join us on our different platforms on zoom on YouTube or on Facebook. We're really excited to have everyone with us today. I'm also honored to have the privilege of introducing our panelists who represent a wide array of experiences and approaches to what brings us together, radical feminist futures. I'm thrilled to first introduce Adrian Marie Brown. Adrian Marie Brown is the author of pleasure activism, the politics of feeling good, and within strategy she can change, changing world, and the CO editor of Octavia abroad science fiction from social justice movements. She's a co host of the how to survive the end of the world and a fabulous parables podcast, Adrian is rooted in Detroit. Our second panelist is none other than the professor Angela Davis. did her activism and scholarship, over the last decades, Professor Davis has been deeply involved in a nation's quest for social justice. In recent years, a persistent theme of her work has been the range of social problems associated with incarceration. She draws upon her own experiences in the early 70s as a person who spent 18 months in jail and on trial, After being placed in the FBI 10 most wanted list. Like many other educators Professor Davis is especially concerned with the general tendency to devote more resources and attention to the prison system than to educational institutions. She now urges her audiences to think seriously about the future possibility of a world without prisons and to help forge a 21st century abolitionist movement and Professor Davis I'm not sure if you recall, but 14 years ago you Gracie CD was and how to talk about creating real change, and the role of radical feminism within that work. It is no coincidence that the Women's Resource Center Research Center hosted you then and is doing so now, and we're so excited to have Adrian and other panelists join the conversation. Indeed, as noted by Professor Davis then was speaking about her personal upbringing in Birmingham, Alabama, and I quote, legal forms of segregation weren't this established because of presidents legislators, or judges one day had epiphany is about the in justices and immoralities of racial segregation. It was because ordinary people. Again, ordinary people became collectively aware of themselves as potential agents of social change as holding within their collective hands, the power to create a new world. Professors talk continues to be relevant to this day, that should not be a surprise to anyone of us here today, particularly as she reminded us that, quote, it is not enough to imagine a different future, you must act. Our next few panelists help us ground us in thinking about what it means to create just a central futures. briza created creator and lifelong teacher learner. She serves as a program coordinator at the woman's resource Research Center. Bree was born and raised in the Bay Area and is passionate about creating spaces and connections where people can learn heal and grow together to create new futures toward our collective liberation, Alia is a fourth year Gender Studies major and a community organizer at the Women's Resource and Research Center, she's also an actor, director, and musician and enjoys collaborating with her friends and colleagues on meaningful artistic projects that has highlighted social justice. She is planning on studying acting professionally after she finishes her undergraduate study. Michelle is a fourth year gender, sexuality and women's studies and political science double major, and currently serves as the administrative coordinator at the Women's Resource and Research Center. There are going to reason for normal California, Michelle is passionate about supporting and empowering marginalized communities in order to foster more equitable and liberatory spaces. With your permission, proposer Davis Adrian, I would like to begin a conversation today with having Bree Alia Michelle offer us your perspective. I'm Sabrina if you can go ahead and get started we're really excited to hear and to begin this conversation. Yeah, thank

you for NASA. I'm really so grateful to be in this space with you all today and I'm really looking forward to exploring and diving deeper into a lot of these topics and questions about how we create a radical new future. When I think of my own journey of learning about social justice and understanding how capitalism and imperialism, is the root of all other isms like racism classism ableism etc. that knowledge didn't come from academia, academia may have been the place where I met and connected with new people who introduced me to a lot of these topics, but it didn't come from higher education itself. And it really makes me think of the quote from assata Shakur that says, No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them. When we think of movements and frameworks like abolition transformative justice, and other anti capitalistic radical organizing it didn't come from academia. It came from working class communities, many of whom are black indigenous disabled queer and trans and other people who experience, the most harm and violence from our society. I feel like a lot of people don't include academia when thinking about institutions that need to be dismantled, which is harmful because academia was also created through genocide and slave labor. I saw this post on Instagram recently by showing you what iPad that says things you can't decolonize, and it listed things like voting academia. The police capitalism, etc. And I feel that post is so important because it addresses a really important concept that has been central to my own learning. But I think also has been central to look to the learning of a lot of other people. And that is understanding not only the potential of, but the necessity of creating radical anti capitalist futures right like not co opted watered down concepts like we're seeing a lot of recently, which add shift which advocates for change within the system through things like voting elections politicians view form, etc. For myself, social media has been a great place to learn the basics of topics like abolition transformative justice healing justice etc, which I think is so great and we're thinking about having this like intergenerational conversation and dialogue about how we create movements through generations right because a lot of the basics that I have learned has been through social media. And then I think it's important to then dive deeper into those topics through books and conversations with other people, something that I'm still working on is the important piece of getting involved with local organizing efforts within your own community. And that doesn't necessarily mean nonprofit organizations who are doing, you know charity or volunteer work. I mean, oftentimes the unofficial organizations or collectives of people who are really doing the work. And in thinking about our intergenerational conversations and thinking a lot about how books like emergent strategy, have been so important in my own understanding of community and healing, our prisons obsolete. Freedom is a constant struggle Ferguson Palestine and the foundations of a movement have helped me understand the prison industrial complex, and the role imperialism has played in creating worldwide violence, and how that's all interconnected. And I think that's a really great example of intergenerational activism right is thinking about how this knowledge and these movements are connected to multiple generations and us actively creating a new future toward our collective liberation.

Thank you so much for that green I really do appreciate you really highlighting about the connectivity between sort of the work that we do across generations. So I really appreciate that so very much. Next second half but Michelle go ahead and into sort of really introduce yourself in the conversation.

Yeah Hello

everyone I'm Michelle. I'm Jess just similar to Bri my activism journey has taken me in many different places, but I think, ultimately, it has really been rooted and greatly shaped by my family, and especially my mother and the other women in my life. I think they have been people that have been constantly and actively engaging in community building and creating interdependent communities that we need for abolition to be possible, but oftentimes that's deep and engaging in these ideas without even realizing it, and knowing that this is really what they're doing that they are doing the activist work that is needed. So when I entered academia and started my education at Davis. I, it really opened my eyes to see and to learn about how I had already experienced and seen these ideas and like a feminist theory. In practice, throughout my life and in my communities. Um, so, as a low income and first generation person. It's academia has definitely been interesting to think about and interesting. Um, as it relates to my understanding of activism, because I think as Bri has also briefly touched upon that. I think for me, when I think of activism I think about it, outside of academia and outside of these institutions and really existing in my communities, and being something that's constant and has evolved and will continue to evolve and is in my communities already and in my family already. Um, so, as a gender, sexuality and Women's Studies major. I have definitely also appreciated the works of Angela Davis and Adrian Marie Brown, to really sort of give me the words and the language that I have already known about and that I have already experienced, but now just really seen get as part of this grant of this bigger movement. So I'm really excited to be here and I'm definitely excited to just engage in this conversation and learn more from everyone here.

Thank you so much for that Michelle and I agree you know I see that. Jacqueline said Nikolas I agree with DVD, I hit it right on the point that both Professor Davis's work and Asia marine.

Vanessa I think your video froze for a little bit, but you're back now.

Thank you so much everyone, so I was just saying, let me just jump right forward I appreciate that, if we can go ahead and audio just go ahead and join in on the conversation that'd be wonderful. Yeah, thank you. Vanessa

for introducing me and Michelle I'm brief your thoughts. I really enjoyed hearing your connections with academia and activism it's really interesting to hear about. Yeah, first of all, it's amazing to be here. I feel really lucky to have been able to be on this panel. So as you might have remembered from my bio, I'm an artist I'm primarily an actor. And a lot of what I have been doing with activism recently has been through my art. I primarily I write, I usually like to create and perform my own work. And I really like specifically to touch on pieces of art that specifically deal with social justice. And that promote the voices of communities that I'm a part of. And through this I think I have achieved some of the most meaningful activism that I have. Throughout my short career as a scholar activist. And in terms of academia, I am really grateful to have learned what I've learned from my major. I know it's not a. It's not the perfect institution, obviously, as we've been talking about but I am really grateful to have studied and have read and made my own feminist theory, over the past few years, and been able to incorporate it within my art. I feel like I am able to incorporate what I have learned through my major through academic writing into the ways that my characters interact with each other the way a character might perform a specific action or the way. An attitude is expressed about someone's action. And that for me is my way of passing on what I've learned, someone who has been privileged enough to be at UC Davis studying what I'm studying, it's a way for me to pass on what I have learned to other people in an easily digestible way. So I feel really grateful to have done that. And thinking about my art and being an artist, being an artist for me is a full body experience. It's never been anything other than that. And I think that's kind of unique in terms of the professions that people choose to go into and thinking about aging Ray Brown's pleasure activism and feeling the joy I feel when I act or when I create a piece of art. I know that that's something I can rely on and something I can use to inform what I do, and what I choose to pursue. For myself, so I really do like to think about that and as Michelle was talking about the works of both Angela Davis Adrian Marie brown and countless other amazing activists who came before us scholar activists have shaped a lot of what I studied at my major. So, yeah. Happy to be here.

Thank you so much for the audio and I think you you created a whole new phrase for us right talking about art ism as a full body experience right. And during the in the con on the conversation regarding the aesthetics of what it means to be an abolitionist for the aesthetics of anti racist work. And so thank you so much for the work that you do and really sort of theorizing and bringing those connections within the world of art, which is really exciting to see your final products, which will be coming soon. And so thank you all three of you bream Shawn Alia for what you just offered. You know what you shared it just reminds me of some reflections of both Professor Davis and Adrian have shared in their writing theoretical things right. Professor Davis and the meaning of freedom and I quote, wrote on the social movement crisis has been produced in part by failure to develop a meaningful and collective historical consciousness. Such a consciousness would entail the recognition that our victories attain for freedom movements I never etched in stone. Will we often proceed under one set of historical conditions as glorious triumphs of mass struggle, can lead or ricochet against us if we do not continually reconfigure the terms are transformed the terrain of our struggle. The struggle must go on transformed circumstances require new theories and practices. Adrian you offer a series of practices and emergent strategy, your mind is that, and I quote, if the goal was to increase the love, rather than winning or dominating mocassin opponent. At the end, who would actually imagine liberation from constant oppression, who would sell it to me be seen everything we do, everyone you need not to the tactical eyes of war, but the eyes of love to see that there's no such thing as a blank canvas or an empty land or new idea, but everywhere there's complex ancient fertile ground, full of potential. So with that, I would like to go ahead and begin a conversation with our panelists and bring in Professor Davis and Adrian Marie brown to the conversation, and really pose, just really a question that our team and thinking about this conversation or what our panelists thus far have offered is really thinking about how can we make activism and knowledge within the Academy, more accessible to the outside of the ivory tower and vice versa. How can you really be rethinking and retooling ways of incorporating the knowledge, and resources from our communities, into the work of the academy which both of you have done so beautifully throughout this time. So, if Weber Professor Davis or if Adrian wants to go ahead and begin this conversation. That'd be wonderful.

Hi.

Do you want to start Dr. Davis.

You can

add me. Like, I first I'll say thank you to everyone thank you to Bree and Michelle and Aaliyah. This is a huge undertaking there's a lot of people watching. And I just thought y'all like came with such confidence and such brilliance and I'm really grateful that I got to hear that. And thank you to the Women's Resource Center for doing this or pulling us together. Yeah, this idea of how we make things accessible outside the Academy. I think it's happening all the time you know I think of myself as an independent scholar, I have a college education from Columbia but I don't have any degrees. I study all the time, and I theorize and I philosophize. And I think we have some really exciting people who are thinking all the time about how do I make sure this work resonates outside of the Academy. So I want to uplift Moya Bailey, who has a new book out on massage Anwar. I want to uplift the Lexus Coleen gums whose book on drown came out today which I'm like, super excited about who's thinking how do I take these ideas and engage in a scholarship that is enlivening and passionate for me, and then I think the most important thing that I always tell people when they're writing in or outside the Academy is. who do you want to be able to understand what it is that you're saying, and I think sometimes in the academy. Sometimes it sounds like folks are getting really excited about the vocabulary that they can use, and they're so excited about the vocabulary that they're not thinking about anybody else being able to necessarily understand it outside of this small circle. And I think all the time we have to be thinking how do we bring the ideas to as many people as possible, especially if we think they're relevant ideas for our people. So,

some thoughts.

Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me to the women's resources and Research Center. Once again, um, and well before I engage with that question it's really wonderful to see you, Ag and I know we've been running into each other, and all kinds of cases, recently yeah yeah and I've been, I've been looking at your books and I can't wait. I've already ordered the one I'm canceled culture so it's good. I know when is it.

We will not cancel us yes he will not.

And when does it come out today.

My puppy that I'm walking around with and.

Okay, well I've already learned it so I should get be getting it soon.

Okay. But, anyway, I'm gonna go for right now,

you know, before I before I address this question about the relationship between work inside the academy and activism and more generally. I should say that when, when I realized that we were doing this webinar today I went back in my computer archives and I, I looked for the notes for the talk that I gave in 2006. And I'll talk a little bit about that later but I was just impressed by by something that I said, that is it. Where is it. I said something like I've avoided until now mention of George Bush, the man throughout, who throughout the world stands for the worst most xenophobic most bellicose most racist most exploited elements of this country. And then, and then I go on to talk about the that the fact that I've never experienced such a named deer in. In, political conditions in this country. Yeah. And, well, look at where we are

now. Like it gets worse. Yes, exactly.

But you know, I, I actually am very suspicious of the ways in which we think about inside and outside, inside the academy outside the academy inside the system outside the system. And I think that, that, that, one of our critical habits should be to question. Those binaries with which we often unquestionably work up, and I say this because so much of what tends to be really exciting within academic worlds has actually come from outside of the academy yeah you know so many of the interesting fields I'm talking about feminist studies I'm talking about critical prison studies. These fields did not originate within an academy behind its walls but but rather as a matter of fact critical prison studies originated in prison, the foundational concepts were developed by prisoners. And I want us to think more capacious Lee about the formation of knowledge and as Adrian as you pointed out, you're theorizing and philosophizing, all of the time and you're offering us these provocative ideas that have the potential of completely transforming the way we imagine activism. And so I would actually like to think about the production of knowledge more holistically and recognize that it does not simply come from the Academy. It comes from our communities. It comes from our movements. It comes from labor struggles. It comes from. It comes from struggles against racism. And if we think in that way. Then we recognize how important it is to learn how to translate. Mm hmm. And, and, of course, you know, some of us speak other languages. And I mean I speak French and I speak German if I know that's that someone doesn't speak German. Um, I would speak German to them. Yes. You know I wouldn't be like one of those people who, who assumes that if only you speak loudly and slowly, then anyone will understand what you mean. And so when we develop expertise when we develop develop these technical vocabularies. We also have to recognize that not everyone is going to find them interesting because they haven't been involved in the same kind of projects that we have that have given rise to these vocabularies. And so we have to learn how to engage in the process of translation, which is really about relationships and community. We're always translating and, and I don't understand why people think that somehow or another, it's only the academics who, who use vocabularies that are not accessible to everyone, you know, even even activists vocabularies aren't accessible to those who aren't

were the words it's all jargon, but I, and I think that's the thing that's why it's always like, whether it's activists, whether it's artists I find this I'll go into a theatrical environment I'm like what what's happening like can you just say what you are doing. But I also think it's that piece where it's like, are we speaking to build relationships are we speaking to broaden are we speaking to connect, or are we speaking to separate to isolate to make ourselves superior. And I think you can always tell when you're listening. Which one is it. Which one is it, and I love the spaces where that translation can happen seamlessly where we can speak across different education's different backgrounds, different languages, different desires and realize there's something larger than all of those this weaving us together.

Mm hmm.

So it was supposed to continue talking or right.

I'm trusting forever so I feel the same way I asked questions myself but I'm, but you also y'all come up with great questions for us so yeah

no I think you're offering some really good insight, Professor Davis and Adrian Marie brown about this work of translation right and about thinking about these binaries which we tend to read then we produce within the system right the speaking as a doctoral student right that's within our training, right and within the way in which they were mentored or in which the ways we see ourselves both the research and the researcher right and i think you know I haven't had a really good conversation with Brian I think bring if you want me to break up some things I think that'd be a really great contribution

right now.

I want to say thank you, Adrian and Dr. Davis for bringing up the concepts that you did and especially thinking about how a lot of people when we think about knowledge production, people just think about academia and that's not that's not true, right. Some of the things that I'm thinking about are like ancestral wisdom there's things that have been passed down I think about, especially pre colonization about the knowledge and the wisdom that many people in communities have and that didn't, that didn't come from academia. Right. And so I think with this question and thinking about, you know, how can we make our activism and knowledge within the academy more accessible outside of the ivory tower, and how can we, how can we Academy, learn from community activism. I think one of the things that's really important to think about, and to ask ourselves is what is activism within the Academy. Are we just referring to co opted movements. When we see actions like union strikes protests, a lot of the people who have created the most impactful change. We're not and are not college educated. And when I think about activism having to do with higher ed. One of the first things I think about is actually different protests and movements, where students are protesting against academia. I'm thinking about students for justice in Palestine organizations, advocating for the BDS movement, urging universities to divest from Israeli own corporations that sustain Israeli apartheid and settler colonialism, I'm thinking about Hawaiian students who are fighting for environmental justice by pressuring universities to and their support of the telescope on Monica. I'm thinking of Indigenous students who are calling for the removal of racist University native mascots right, which also shout out to the Native American Student Alliance at San Diego State University, who are pushing further removal of the racist as tech mascot. Um, and so I, in a way, I almost think that academia, shouldn't learn from community activism, because active, because academia is also part of the problem right academia acts just like any other company whose main focus is making money yet in a lot of activist circles, we tend to put academia on this pedestal was like, oh, something that can create no harm right when in reality, we know that academia is also created through genocide and slave labor right. But when academia tries to learn from community activism, that's when we see co opted movements that end up getting lost in meaning. So, for example, I've seen universities take language and steal language kind of like what you're talking about. Dr. Davis but taking language right University stealing from radical movements in terms like identity politics right like identity politics was coined by the combahee River collective in 1977, which is a black feminist lesbian socialist organization, and it focused on how people organize and develop political analysis and political agendas, based on the oppression that they face, and then we see that, academia goes and takes it and completely spins it to for identity politics to just mean diversity where it's fully lacking class analysis. And so something that I'm thinking of to type deeper into this topic and kind of going off of the conversation of what you were talking about Dr. Davis with academia and how sometimes we could see some of that being co opted is, I see that in a lot of social justice communities, a true anti capitalist lens is missing from movements and, and it ends up in a lot of movements end up being co opted for the neoliberal agenda. And so I'm wondering, how do you think we get people to engage with topics like socialism and communism.

Okay, um, first sort of challenge you, on the framework that you've given us for understanding the work of the university. Because I want to say I think the university is important. And I'm not excusing any of the problems as a matter of fact, I was fired from my first job after university. So, I see the university as being much more than the institutional structures that are grounded in colonialism and slavery and have helped to perpetuate so many of the dominant ideologies. It is that, but it's also the place where we learn. It's also the place where we have the opportunity to come together and, and, and, I mean, the fact that as undergraduates, you spend four years, reading, and writing and engaging in conversations that is so important. But what I think what we have to do at the same time, is to engage in subversive activity it's a terrain for subversion. And so that, so that our habits of critique also have to involve criticism of the ways in which we conceptualize and understand, and that is not often given to us by the university Yeah, because in academia, we have these disciplines that have their own methods and their own concepts. And it's kind of hard to get outside of them up. And to think, think about, well, what, what kinds of answers might I discover if I were not imprisoned by these conceptualizations that belong to this particular discipline. I mean this is one of the reasons I think interdisciplinarity is so important. And this is something one can struggle for at the university and entered interdisciplinarity that of course involves programs like feminist studies and Native American Studies, but also a broader interdisciplinarity that acknowledges what we were talking about before, that knowledge gets produced in other places. So there's so many ways in which we can not only learn the knowledge that is handed down to us but that we can also subvert it. And so I, I like to think about the university as a site for developing revolutionary ideas that aren't necessarily going to come from your professor and not necessarily from the disciplines. But, where else do we have the opportunity to engage in the kinds of conversations you are encouraging us to think about right now. v. So, you know I like, I kind of like to, you know, trouble, my own ideas. And I'm always asking myself what is the source of that, you know, where did I get this idea from and why am I using this this particular concept. Isn't there a more creative way to express this idea and. And so, what yeah so what was it, what was the question.

I think I definitely also agree that a higher education can be a site of learning for engaging in these like more in depth conversations, a

scribble.

Yes. Um,

so my question that I had is and this was kind of tied to when we were talking about like, um, like when academia does Co Op movements. Right. And so I think so my question was, um, and a lot of social justice communities a true anti capitalist lens is missing, and movements end up being co opted for the neoliberal agenda. Okay,

let me just say two words and then I'm gonna pass it over to Adrian because I'm sure she has really exciting responses to that. But, Um, you know, I don't worry about co optation so much. Because for me, that means that we've, we've influenced people of the ideas that we're, we're marginal and small begin to be taken up by our enemies. And so what that means is that we have to develop even more radical approaches, you know once once our approaches are co opted, then that means we have to go somewhere else, and we have to become, we have to find that which is not as co optimal at the moment and of course we can talk about that for the rest of the time allotted to us. Huh.

I love all this is very enlivening you know i i appreciate the conversation on what can happen inside of academia, and what can't and like all of this. And I think what I've learned as a facilitator is every single space that you are in there is an institution. There are some people who are holding an old way there are some people who are holding old ways of thinking and by old I mean, tried to control trying to categorize white supremacist patriarchal ways of thinking capitalist imperialist ways of thinking. And what I think debilitates us often in our struggle is that we think that is only our system that has this institutionalization, and that only in our system we cannot do revolution, and I want to flip it the other way to be like every single location that a human can be in is a site of revolutionary behavior is a site of futuring like where can, how can I be an embodiment of everything I value in this location. If you are a bank teller. If you are doing CPR on someone. If you are a teacher every location. And so, academia. Right now it's the one that you're in right so this is the institution that you have to figure out how do I shape and form. And if I need to tear this down and if I need to build something up. How do I do that here. And then when you leave this institution, and you get the next job or whatever. The same thing is going to happen again. and it might be in the corporate world. Oh, now we have to tear this down yeah tear it all down, it's all connected. Right. It's all connected the roots are all Imperial capitalistic militaristic control mechanisms, so all of it has to come down, all it has to change. And the question that you asked about how do we talk to people about. I believe you said communism and socialism inside of that. And one of the things that I tried to do often is recognize if the language the word is getting in the way of the idea being shared, and it's back to that translation thing you were talking about is, it's like if I'm saying to someone. Oh, I want everyone to be able to have education and healthcare and a home and all these other things. I know I'm saying socialist things. But if they're if their thing is like no socialism, yes to healthcare school. I'm like,

Okay,

then let's let's move away from language that you know I'm like you might have a lot of great analytical reasons why you don't want that language. Same with feminism right like I'll have this conversation well they're like no no to feminism because it's white feminism it's, it's been clocked in that way, but then when I'm like okay but do you believe in this equality Do you believe in us being able to hit yes yes yes so I'm like Okay, so let's not ever let the language become a blockade to us actually being able to share the ideas and build the ideas, and I'm a writer, so I'm like, give me a challenge, make me create new words make me create new language like let me create language that is not envisioned by my oppressors. I'm excited about the idea of coming up with words that in 50, years, someone else will be like, That's old. Now we need new language I'm like yes let's let's keep seeing ourselves as co creators of what comes next, rather than having to carry a load that may not work for us any longer.

And I appreciate that. AJ and, you know, I think it's reminded me of how Schengen rate speaks about the need to really shift our mindset from thinking about really thinking about really growth and creation, right like stemming from that sort of sort of pointless conversation and I really appreciate this interaction right between sort of workbooks are at different stages of engage within that process and that self awareness and that consciousness and that growth. And it's really enticing a lot of folks in the q&a chat and a question that's continuously coming up, based on this conversation and interaction. This this concept of canceled culture, particularly with the use of like social media and all this growth as an activist circles and I really just wanted to sort of jump in to that conversation about, you know what I saw in the interaction was beautiful it was it was interaction, it was teaching it was learning right now right and so that's not necessarily the case right and doesn't translate into different spaces within the activist or sphere and it's not just an activist sort of realm or issue, but within this conversation I'm wondering, what are your thoughts regarding sort of drawing the line between accountability disposability kancil culture and growth within sort of movement building. And if you can get us started with some of that, that you shared earlier I think that'd be wonderful.

Yeah, thank you. It's also been amazing to hear all of you speak, and share thoughts with each other It's fantastic. One of the things that really jumps out to me about kancil culture is that I see it as operating on a binary, where people are, for example, either sexist or not, or you are racist or you are not, and there's no in between. And if you are racist then you're banned from the internet or you're just putting this little box where no one has to think about you again.

And,

you know, that's mainly existing in this sphere of social media. And similarly, we've been seeing a lot of growth being done over the past summer. Following the murder of George Floyd, where a lot of people have been mentioning that we all carry racist tendencies and thought patterns within us, and something I was thinking about is well if we're all carrying racist tendencies then we'll all just have to cancel ourselves. Right. Which is impossible. And because of this,

it's,

I believe Adrian you've talked about this a lot and he wrote a whole book about it but how there's really no growth from it. You don't teach people things by excluding them and not allowing them to grow and not employing empathy, which I believe is one of the most underused tools in the current social justice movement. But, Adrian, I would love to hear you talk about this because I know this is really big for you and, yeah, you have a book about it.

And thank you for this thank you for the way you have heard the question Leah. You know I am, I'm learning this I feel like I'm trying to learn this right now in a major way, and I want to start off by saying I don't have like here's the right answer about kancil culture here's the right line. I don't think there is one yet and I say this often but I think we are at a very infantile stage of learning how to do abolition transformative justice in this kind of way. And I think we need to be thinking both about our immediate needs the immediate boundaries the immediate safety like how do we actually survive and protect survivors. And we need to stay in touch with a long term vision of abolition that moves us beyond policing and prisons and Ruthie Wilson Gilmore said that abolition is about presence not absence and how do we build life affirming institutions, and that's the opening quote for this little, little booklet. And so I keep thinking about that like how do we actually get to a presence of community and accountability and an absence of policing in prisons. And what do we have to practice, interpersonally and at the level of community, in order to actually be in a world without prisons. And where are we, enjoying policing each other because there is a pleasure that comes from being able to correct and find out like, just how someone is wrong. And I'm like, how do we relinquish that pleasure. How do we access belonging, that is not based on how we shut others out or position ourselves as better than them, or better than their worst day. And fundamentally you know I'm also a pleasure activist so I think like what's satisfying. Like, what would satisfy our need for accountability. And for me, it has not been satisfying to send people who have done harm or committed abuse away so that they keep creating harm elsewhere, and it is not satisfying to shame people without giving a path towards how they can heal or how they can return to community, and it's not satisfying have every conflict every misunderstanding. Every contradiction lifted to the level of, like, this is egregious harm and we must do a process and I'm like, hold on. We have to get more principled. And I think the idea of principles struggle which and Tanya Lee taught me when it comes from Marxism is something that's really like how do we learn to be in principle struggle with each other, how do we learn to put something larger than ourselves first, how do we learn mediation skills, how do we learn to put out the boundaries that we need, and to feel what it feels like when you have a good boundary in place it's being upheld not just by you, but by community, and that you know that those who are causing harm and if you ever cause harm, you will be held in community to heal, so that we actually break these cycles, I think that whatever future whatever abolitionist future, we have, it will come from what we practice right now today, being in right relationship, more and more in every single moment. And it's not easy if it was easy, we would already be doing it. But Miriam Kava is also the god the teacher on this. And one thing she points out is we've had 250 years of this current police state experiment, and it has failed miserably. We are not safer. We have not broken any of the cycles, what would it look like when we talk about defend the police, what would it look like to literally redistribute the resources into other experiments and other places where we know what would it look like if we had our mental health resources, what would it look like if we had the resources for teachers to actually be able to intervene when they see harm happening that children are getting harmed at home that these cycles are continuing what would it look like, and I get stunned when I think about what it'll look like. So for me, that kancil culture is very much tied to, how do we practice abolition right now today.

I really love how you connected those two points because they, they go together so well. And it took me until you're just saying it now to connect them because I think that that is policing behavior. And it's built upon how we've policed each other over the past couple of centuries so that's an amazing point. Thank you so much.

Thank you. And let me say that I think that that is the feminist dimension of evolution that we recognize that it is not only necessary to re create institutions to extricate ourselves from these institutions that encourage a retribution. But that we also have to ask ourselves, how does the state function through our own interior lives, how does the state function, through our emotions, why is it that when something bad is done to us we immediately have the impulse so I look at the current occupant of the White House to hurt someone else. Yeah, so it's it's it's a it's a holistic process so the personal is political. I think that that phrase which we've heard so many times is acquiring a deeper meaning, as we explore. You know how it is we go about the process of abolition. And let me say that as a person who has been talking about abolition since the 1970s, I can't believe. And for the vast majority of those years, people's responses been by and large. Are you out of your mind. Are you insane. You know what, what would we do if we didn't have prisons if we didn't have a police. But the fact that now during this particular conjuncture something about that argument has touched, at least half the population. Yes. And so my question is about the other half of the population. Do we simply cancel them. Do we argue that we want to nations.

I have been writing so much secession fantasies, like I have really been writing my secession fantasies even though I don't think I think because of the way that we are constructed as a species on a limited planet that has not found another planet, and we are with the other half is committed to dominance and constant growth dominance. None of my succession fantasies tend to work out because as soon as we try to separate, they're still growing and trying to come, so I keep thinking we have to make the ideas, even more compelling even more.

Also, I think that we also have to be able to imagine a world without nation states,

absolutely nationalism, yet.

Capitalism. Absolutely. And so even though we may think about this as far into the future, it's important as you point out in your work to express our dreams right now, and we don't want these borders, we don't you know want these nation states that are products of the bourgeoisie, so. So getting back to the question of about kancil culture, and whether we cancel the half of the 73. million people who voted for the current occupant. You know, I want to say that, in many ways, those of us were organizers haven't done the work we should have been doing some of those people, large numbers of those people should have been reached by now they should. We need to talk about the fact that the reason they are, they see themselves as so vulnerable economically vulnerable has to do with global capitalism has to do with the very same forces that are responsible for the production of the prison industrial complex, and how the question is how do we figure out a way to engage in the kind of organizing that bring those people into our community, you know, rather than simply exiling them to a space that is only occupied by racists. It's a serious issue. And I think that some of your ideas can be really helpful in that process as

well and I have to say my ideas, you know, in our last conversation public conversation I said the same thing but my ideas are definitely built on your ideas right so it's like, we are in a conversation or my

ideas are collective ideas. Exactly,

their ideas like ideas right. I think this is the thing is, it's like it's, it comes through us, and these are these are, I think, the fundamental things of our species. This is why when we talk about intergenerational organizing part of me always laughs a little bit because I'm like, well, there's no monolith by age, like, there are these ideas that are flowing like rivers through all of us, and if we can find the river, right, we're like, oh this river can nourish anyone who's willing to come to it, even those who have been a part of causing the most harm. And I think about that now there are people who work in the neo nazi communities who have come out and are like okay my work now is to figure out how to organize other people out of that space. And my work right I'm like that's not my job, my job is not to go in and out of those spaces right, my job is to figure out how do I stay connected to the idea that there could be a human that comes out of that space, who still has humanity and who needs to who needs to still also be on this path of liberation, because that's hard for me right I find myself challenged, it's so much easier for me to be like, I could never I'm so much better than that. It's so much harder for me to submit my ego and push it out of the way and say, actually, that person is in some ways the victim of the same egregious systems, that is victimizing me and my people. And if I can understand these are these are shared related interconnected like DNA strands of victimhood by these systems that don't have any of us, and that turn all of us against ourselves. I'm like, Oh, I begin to see a way out, and I think it's really important this idea of like, if we don't cancel. I do think the boundaries are really important. And then I do think it's very important to be constructing things that people can move towards. And I think that, you know, when I think of what is our movement responsible for. Maurice mo Mitchell, who is now at the head of the working families party who I adore. He says we need to have low bar for entry and high standards once you enter the door, and I think about that is like our movements, sometimes we can seem to flip right that we can be like it's a very high bar for entry if you say the wrong thing if you do the wrong thing, you know, in the first five minutes of the meeting, you're out of here you don't belong, and I'm like, we need to be, you know, Prentiss Hemphill talks about this Audrey Lorde talked about the scholars of belonging. How do we create spaces that are irresistible spaces that you want to belong to, and you want to authentically belong to and there's room for your whole self, including your harmful and your victim and your hurt self, all of you can come in space and can learn who can contribute and configure it out. And I would be remiss not to mention Octavia Butler because the reason I'm obsessed with her fiction is I feel like she writes these futures in which these imperfect people are working together to create a compelling world. And I think that's what we're up to right now is figuring out how do we work together to create something more compelling than hate and more compelling than creed.

No, I saw this film, not too long ago. It's called since I've been down by the filmmaker is Gilda Shepard. It is the most incredible film about men and women in prison, who were imprisoned when they were teenagers. And, and oftentimes serving life, or this this one brother commodity carta is serving, seven, I think it's 770, years. And if you, if you look at the work that they're doing. They weren't allowed to have access to education. And so the black prisoners caucus This is in the state of Washington, develop curriculum. And these brothers taught themselves how to teach. Yes, I'm just haunted by so many of the things that they said, you know, one of them said of when I teach, I almost feel free. And if you're talking about transformative justice and and focusing on the potential that people have to transform themselves and the world outside of them. Look, you know, look at these sisters and brothers it's just. As a matter of fact, they talk about the fact that they might even have the answers to the problems that we're confronting in the largest society. And that even even racism. They've reached some of the Aryan Brotherhood prisoners who are involved in the educational process and who are beginning to recognize as you were pointing out before that, you know, they're these guys I think, Heather has mother has been working with a lot of guys who've been in you know organizations like the Klan and the Marian brotherhood white nationalists and so forth. I don't think anyone can see that film, without recognizing the deep humanity of anyone. And you know, I, when I think about the fact that a commodity apologized to us, he was involved in what turned out to be a murder he was in a car and somebody shot a gun. It was a drive by and he's spending the rest of his life behind bars as a result of that, and he says that I am not the same person who was that kid, you know, I, I've developed into someone who values knowledge and learning, and who wants to create community and wants to reach across boundaries. So I you know I'm thinking that the answer to some of these issues may very well be found behind bars. The sisters and the brothers and the trans prisoners who are trying to shake their own humanity under absolutely untenable conditions.

Thank you for that. Professor Davis and I think you know your words are really hitting home for so many people in the chat as I'm looking through both your words on both your words eg and broad regarding sort of what you're offering but what I'm noticing on here is that there's a trend of seeing both in the chat and the questions that folks are really appreciative that you still have this sense of hope. Right, I'm also being like really centered in the work throughout the years and decades, and in thinking about who our folks are who are in the space right now, we're close to you know 8000 people in the majority of students from across the world. And also thinking about the context in which we're living in and of a global pandemic and thinking about the different forms of social unrest and uprising that we've experienced thus far, you know, in closing within the last few minutes we have and sort of in that that spirit of hope. I'm wondering if our panelists can really think about what you envision for the next 10 years down the line in terms of movement building and activism and really sort of how do you ground your practice to sort of seek whatever that vision might be. And if I can go ahead and have Michelle go ahead and ask her to get us started on the conversation, that'd be wonderful. Yeah, thank

you so much Vanessa, um, I think it's definitely very daunting to think about the next 10 years I think even like the next year or so, I think, thinking about what we envision like what we want and like what we think we can actually achieve within 10 years is very difficult but, um, as you've mentioned, Vanessa and as this talk has very much emphasized is that there is still a lot of hope. And I think for me, given the fact that yes this is now my fourth year at UC Davis, I've been involved at the Women's Resource and Research Center. All four years, I've definitely seen the center and the work that is being done through the center evolve, and I've seen many people throughout the four years doing different things and bringing in different perspectives and different knowledge, and that definitely gives me hope. The fact that I've been able to make so many connections with people through this work, gives me hope. I definitely am also very much inspired by younger people, that even though I'm, I'm only 21 now I definitely. I think it just, I'm left in all in how people that are younger than me, are just so they have this all this knowledge and I what I see a lot is that younger people are also taking great strides to further educate themselves and access further knowledge I think that's something that I've seen that people are really seeking out knowledge. During this time, so I think when I envisioned the next 10 years, I, I think it's easy to say that yeah i want i want interdependent communities and I want radical love and care to exist in these communities. Um, and it's definitely interesting and I think it's a lot of work to try to imagine those communities. But I think it's also definitely even more daunting to think about working towards those communities, and actually taking the actions to achieve those communities. So I think when I think about what kind of future I envision I envision a future where I think, simply put, is that a community that centers, the needs of everyone and is, I think strives to really understand and embody these ideas of like radical love and radical care that also include accountability and taking care of each other and taking care of people who are harmed, but also making space to ensure that the people who cause that harm are also not disposed of. and not not eliminated from our communities.

So,

I think, I think that's what I envision, but I would love to hear all of everyone's thoughts and, especially, how you all think we can achieve this future.

Hey, Mike Are we all right are the students are you all going to share your visions.

We have time,

if there's time since we're coming towards the end.

I don't know what. All right. Well, Angela Do you have a vision for the next 10 years.

Well, um, you know, I guess I can say I hope I'm still around. And I mean I say that because I feel that that I'm representing so many who engaged in the kinds of struggles that brought us to this moment and so I almost feel like I'm witnessing for them. I'm representing, for those who are not here to be able to experience this moment. And, you know, I, i. I like what Stuart Hall says about engaging in this this work against racism against capitalism against misogyny and hetero patriarchy that we do the work because we believe that a different world is possible. But at the same time we have to recognize that there are no guarantees. Because the, the history does not by itself conform to our dreams and our ideas, but at the same time there emerge these moments of these conjunctions, such as the one we're experiencing now. No one could have ever predicted that we would have a pandemic. A global pandemic. That is also a product of global capitalism, and that and that it would be the pandemic that would give people the opportunity to reflect on the structural character of racism, because people could see what what what's happening to the Navajo Nation and indigenous communities they could see that in Latin x communities, people are suffering so much more in black communities. And that's, and that all of this would what would begin to make sense when we collectively witness of the lynching. The police lynching of George Floyd and, and then a Breanna Taylor, no one could have predicted that. But, on the other hand, had we not done the work all along. Had we not done the organizing, had we not in engaged in the kind of intellectual labor that created new ideas and new possibilities. This moment might have happened. And we would not have been able to take advantage of it. We would not have been, we would not be able to seize the time. So, what I hope is that we will work hard to create new institutions, and that's work. That is not so dramatic. It's not like the mass mobilizations it's not the work that that you know gets that that gets us so collectively excited. It's, it's, sometimes it's tedious work, but we have to do that if we are going to make this moment matter. So I guess what I'm saying is that I hope that that that people put in the time, the physical the intellectual the spiritual labor, that is going to be required in order to really make this moment Mater. Oh,

this is excellent. Like, I want all of those things. And I also, you know, I'm a, I'm an apocalypse scholar right I just think about the end of the world and the ends and how we have ended and begun and ended and begun. And that's my obsession. And so right now I keep thinking about the climate capacity right the climate. The fact that we are in you know I live in Detroit and two days ago was 70 degrees and then today it's snowed. And I think, you know, right now, movement generation taught me that we are living with there's like a 40 year gap from when the technology and the pollution everything goes out, and when we actually feel the collective impact on us, right, so we're in like 1980s impact. And when I think about that and I'm like okay so every 10 years we get more and more impactful, and we will have more and more to deal with. And I'm really curious about how having to survive the increasing climate catastrophes will shift, a lot of how we understand our divisions and will shift how we need to relate to each other, and what gives me a lot of hope right now is when I look around and I think about 10 years ago, and how many more people today can speak coherently about patriarchy about white supremacy about racism about militarism, and how many more people understand what trans identity is and ableism. I'm like, Oh, we have come so far, 10 years is a lifetime when it comes to ideology and getting people to commonly understand things and 10 years, when we have the technology that we currently have to teach each other. And right now we are stuck in our homes, teaching and teaching and learning and learning and teaching and learning. And I think this is a time when we are gaining a ton of ancestors, and we are gaining a ton of ideas. And I think all of that is going to come to bear on helping us to survive. What is coming, which is inevitable, the inevitable consequences of our human behavior. And I think our job is to make it compelling to be a species on this planet to not surrender to extinction extinction is right there. And there's another path. And again, keep saying let's find the river and flow towards that path that is life moving towards life is life moving towards life, and that gives me hope every time.

Well I'm so moved. I'm so moved by that. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah,

I'm so moved by this whole conversation. I feel really My heart is like, we're gonna be okay. So, anytime I touch that feeling it's good news.

Write about pleasure activism and, and one of the things I should have said, when I was, we were asked the question about 10 years now. From now, I hope that 10 years from now, people better recognize the power of music and art, and, and, and know who is the leader who is the artists. Oftentimes, art gets marginalized. It's not recognized for the way in which it can transform us so that we want to dream, so that we want a better world. Now I'm doing a lot of work with jazz right now. I mean I you know I'm not a musician. But I believe in the power of music to help us move in the direction of of justice and freedom. and so that jazz. is a site of patriarchy. To say it succinctly, and I'm involved with a bunch of people who are trying to transform the field. So that's it, the potential of this music can actually be released and it cannot be released, as long as it is a site of patriarchy. So I'm actually working on a book about a jazz pianist Jerry Allen. Yes, I'm working with. Terri Lynn Carrington who's a, an amazing drummer, and has done the most incredible music and Gina didn't have this book, hopefully it'll come out in the next couple of years.

Yes, that's beautiful and i mean i i don't know if y'all are gonna you just cut us off at any point, but you know one of the things I always want to mention too is your yoga practice has actually deeply inspired my sense of what a pleasure, life is and how we must take care of our physical containers right like actually be in relationship with the bodies that carry us through Revolution, the bodies the channel our ancestors the bodies that create art, you know, and like Tony Kay bambara said that the the role of the artist is to make the revolutionary resistible and like and we do that with our bodies, which include our minds which include our joints, which include our magic right. So I want to thank you for, for, how much you have shown that you're not just a brilliant revolutionary, not just a brilliant mind but also someone who is deeply caring for the container that miraculous container that is you, so that we do get to have you as long as we can. And then all of us can be inspired to be around as long as we can, you know, thank you

for let me just tell you a story. Really quickly really quickly. This morning I was on a webinar, and I got up at five o'clock this morning, because my, my friend Margaret Burnham my oldest friend in the world was sponsoring a conference on lynching and restorative justice. So I did that conference with her I actually talked about her father, who had written about Emmett Till in 1956. Okay. And then I went into the other room, and took a yoga class with her sister Linda bird on each other forever, and then Marv his oldest sister was also on the yoga call.

Family Affair, like yoga for the movement. Yes. Thank you,

appreciate you bringing that up, both of you regarding us how do you sustain and sort of protect and preserve yourself right as you're doing this work because it's so important, especially in thinking that we have so many students college students on here and I even noticed that we have actually some middle school students also attending, and even asking how do I even get involved into activism, what does that look like right and even a conversation with our students on campus, particularly because of the pens I'm thinking about mental health issues and how do you really, you know, protect and sustain yourself in that process and even in the work that we do. The woman's resource and Research Center, released to to centering that in our conversation. I really sort of privileging that as part of the way in which we move collectively as a unit. And so I really do appreciate you bringing that up Adrian about how we do have models of how that can be part of that practice as well. Right. It's not exclusionary to what activism looks like it looks like it's part of, sort of, what are the dimensions of its full body experience right and tell me to ensure that that is right. Thank you. Look at that. screenshot backwards.

But I think, and I appreciate that because I think one of the things that I also saw within this conversation, through the chat through the q&a is really this, the sense of spirit of collaboration and love. I even see folks from different spaces and moments in their lives and to see really sort of scholars within their own right, really provide some of those teachable moments and advice and experiences, and in dropping those challenges right, instead of in those conversations and to honestly to also see folks who are as well. Dr Mishra when cars were the witnessing this process, right, we're witnessing this conversation and thinking about how I even saw the chat someone already started a Google document to start coding, the things that have been shared to start noting different resources. I already saw someone start a slack and discord channel as well for folks who want to connect. I saw folks dropping their IDs. In order to the soda follow each other I also saw community organizations dropping their emails and phone numbers and web links regarding through these pieces right I this was part of that process but I'm still happy to see that collectively. We're already there and thinking about what that might look like to collectively move forward with what really that future may look like for us, right, because I think to put what both aging, you mentioned in propensity to respond and the future is now very, we're living in that future sort of ramen noodles ramen and some of that work that our ancestors have done, and to sort of just be in the space with both Professor Davis and Adrian Marie brown and to sort of be willing to sit and witness that an action to hear that, to receive that to be that ceremony and so I think we're really so so thankful that we have the privilege of time to be part of the process to learn to unlearn right and I think those are the moments that really bring me joy in thinking right and and hearing all of you speak and as a mom of two bomb boys thinking about I always think about features, but it has been my children has stopped taught me to really embrace a different imagination what that looks like and lead with joy, right we do it that joy, and I think both of you have demonstrated that through your work of scholarship and Michelle green Alia, those are things you're doing currently right now too. And I think I'm so excited to sort of see where those costs will pass, not just with our panelists, but also with folks in the chat. Who are you know really started engaging with each other and building those collaborations. And so I think what I want to do just in closing is just offer everyone sort of a quick moment to sort of provide some closing thoughts, because we're already a minute into 630. I know that everyone here was mentioned on chat we can stay on here all night. But I don't think with Professor Davis, Adrian, brown or any of our panelists, maybe you will be actually interested in staying on. But we could definitely sort of stay in the light that you're offering us at this moment. But if you can provide a quick sort of closing statement to sort of help us close up the ceremony and this process so to really appreciate that so if I'm going to go ahead and turn to Adrian Marie brown and then to Professor Davis.

To think if there's anything else that needs to be said you know I really feel grateful for being in this conversation, and maybe I'll just spend some time uplifting for people that there are so many more resources right now for the conversations we're having than there ever have been before. There's a book called fumbling towards repair that came out this year from Miriam Kava and Sherif Hassan that is a workbook for people who want to do community accountability processes and needs skills on how to do that. There is an anthology called Beyond survival that came out from a jurisdiction and Leah Lakshmi pfco summer scene Ha. That is a history of transform majestics experimentation over the years. I mentioned the books before we will not cancel us and drowned that they're both on AK. There's more books coming. I know Patrice colores is working on a book on abolition. I'm working with Andrea Ritchie on another book on abolition dreaming and emergent strategy abolition combinations. This is a really rich time, a really really rich time of resources that are very tangible. So, I believe that Dr. Davis, like, a lot of what you've done is given us like here's the framework here are the ideas. Here's how we need to rearrange our thinking. And now, there's a lot of people who are like okay and here's the practices, like, here's what it looks like when you put that in action. So I want to point people towards those resources. Look at me a manga says work. You can't go wrong looking at Rachel hurts because work. So, there are thinkers and, obviously, the visualizing abolition, I mean like, like maybe you'll talk about that, but it's just like there's exciting work happening in Arts Movement writing all over the world. And there's exciting experiments happening, the Blackfish is collected in the Twin Cities is exciting experiments happening with, what does it look like to actually do this at scale. So thank you all for being here. I hope all of this is of use to your life, and I hope that you know that you already as you are being here thinking these things asking these questions. It's enough just keep going down this path, it'll be enough.

Thank you Professor Davis.

Well, I think, you know, Adrian has given us a wonderful closing statement, the only thing that I will add is that, you know, I have been teaching. Since 1969. And so I have seen many generations of students many generations of undergraduates, many generations of graduate students. And what I want to say is that this generation is the very best. So you make me feel hopeful. And, and, you know, the best work that that that all of us can do is to create a terrain for a new generation to take the ideas and the work and move forward. And you all are doing it better than anyone else has thus far, so I just want to express my gratitude and I smile. Now, I used to be so upset with So what kind of education, have they had they don't know anything. You know, and now I'm just beaming every time I have a conversation with with students now It leaves me inspired and then it also makes me feel very young again. So thank you.

Thank you so much for that both AJ and Marie brown and Professor Davis like on your words mean so much to all of us in the on this panel folks were really, really attending this live stream on zoom YouTube and Facebook and again, thank you all for the panelists and thank you everyone for attending. And more importantly, thank you for the privilege of your time and for really opening yourself to this experience with us, we'll be following up with attendees, with a post email regarding so resources that have been mentioned throughout this conversation. A link to the recording, and also just some more information regarding some resources that have been exchanged in the chat. I think would be so valuable for folks that have a centralized place to be able to access some of these. So we'll make sure to go ahead and work on this as soon as we can, again thank you everyone for your contribution for your time for your heart for your mind for being with us today, and we look forward to extending this conversation and our work and work and word and see each other in the future as we as our paths cross. Thank you so much everyone we have a wonderful evening, and we'll see each other soon.

Thank you. love love love Love.