Pitches That Piss Off Podcasters | Hosted by Mai-kee Tsang ft. Maggie Patterson
2:57PM Jan 19, +0000
Speakers:
Mai-kee Tsang
Maggie Patterson
Keywords:
pitch
podcast
people
guest
maggie
business
podcasters
person
audience
question
subject line
topic
timely
relationship
clients
agency
feel
thoughtful
open
build
Hello, my lovelies, this is Mai-kee Tsang and welcome to the first episode session of pitches that piss off podcast of this is a new life series here in 2023, as we look behind the scenes of real pitches that podcasters have received, that, frankly, pissed them off. And the reason why I want to collaborate with some of my very, very dears podcast peers is because I know that they have a lot to say. And, you know, I think it'd be great for you to actually hear it directly from them, instead of me projecting what I think is the only thing that pistol podcasters. So I'm gonna love this collaborative element. And it's all for us to really learn some mistakes that I've absolutely made in the past, by the way, like learning the mistakes that people have made before that they still make today so that we don't make the same mistakes, when it comes to pitching when we want to be the guest. Right. And of course, we will do we will have a q&a as well with our special guests, which is Maggie Patterson, as well, because trust me, she she has fire to bring to today. So I'm super, super excited. So before we get into all of the things, maybe you want to say a quick hi to everybody who's, who's here with us live today,
everyone, I'm excited to see so many people, we had no idea who was who was gonna join us, we'd be hanging out by ourselves.
Yes. I mean, like, even if we hung out by ourselves, it'll still be a party. So awesome. We've had many wonderful conversations and collaborations in the past. So may this be an amazing thing. And you're very welcome, Sheila, if that's how I pronounce your name, please tell me how to pronounce your name in the chat as well. Feel free to use your chat throughout, by the way, everybody who's here with us live today. And yes, you're very welcome. I'm very happy to tell the people that Captions are available. So something that I love to do, no matter what the occasion is, is to set expectations. So that's exactly what we're going to be doing today. So this is what's going to be happening over the next 90 minutes. Number one, I'll introduce Maggie properly, where we can actually learn more about her her background. And the very special angle that she's coming from today, because I don't have very many peer peers who actually had the same angle that Maggie does, with the prospective that she has as well. So super excited about that. And inside the inbox. So this is where we're going to be seeing Maggie's pitches, or in this case, hearing Maggie's pitches, because something that I've asked all of my guests who are coming on in the future as well, is that we really want to point out patterns versus people. So that's why I've asked all of my guests to anonymize their pitches just so that we're not outing anyone specifically, because that's not the point. The point for here is just to see like an overall educational approach of like patterns that we see, because I see them as well as a podcast and myself. But Maggie has chosen to anonymize them via like, she's going to read them, because she's actually printed them out. So that's why the captions will come in handy for those of you who need any additional help actually, like just kind of deciphering. Because sometimes I get lost myself when I'm listening. I'm like, I'm a great listener. I know I am. But sometimes I just need that extra aid. Right. So that's what I'll be doing that and a q&a with Maggie as well. I did ask Maggie what she preferred in terms of questions as it's happening less towards the end. She's totally open for both. So if you have a question, like mid pitch or something, feel free to ask in the chat. I will be women in the chat. So we're going to be great. And so I'll just come back. Oh, Maggie, that's the question. And I'll check that out for you. Okay, but before we do, I do want to give a quick intro to myself, for those of you who've come from Maggie's community, or you've somehow found us without being it directly related to us, maybe a friend or a client of ours have actually shared the post where we promoted this. So I just want to give a quick intro to myself in case you don't know. And a very, very quick sponsor shout out as well. So hi, my name is Mai-kee Tsang. I'm the host of this new new show. I use she her pronouns and what I do I own the sustainable visibility mentor certified trauma sensitive leadership coach, and podcast guesting strategy trainer. So that's a huge title. Anyhow, what I do in a nutshell, I help underestimated and underrepresented humans in business to take a safety first strategy, second approach to visibility, so they can feel safer to be seen as a shop to grow their impact fueled businesses. So why me like why am I hosting these conversations about podcasting? In general? Well, back in 2019, I actually challenged myself to pitch to 101 podcasters in 30 days, that's more of a cautionary tale, by the way, as opposed to a inspirational one, just so you know. But back then, I'm talking about the party. And actually, what I didn't expect to achieve was a 33% booking rate, which was very interesting. And then what I did was that I actually reverse engineer the process and developed my signature pitch with purpose framework, which I've now taught to hundreds of entrepreneurs. With my ultimate podcast guesting workshop series, I've taught them through masterminds or group programmes, running their own programmes and all that. And for a self paced DIY sort of approach for those of you who really want to learn the pitch skills yourself, then this may be something that you're interested in. So if you do want to book yourself on more on Line podcasts by sending fewer pictures or not 101 with intention and integrity to expand your reach for new audiences, deepen your relationship with the host and your own community, as well as grow your business, I invite you to learn more. So I'll drop the link in the chat throughout. And also, if you're listening to this on the podcast, or you're watching this on my blog, and the link will be around wherever you are consuming this. Alright, but that's my quick Hi, my quick intro. But now I do want to pass the mic over to our special guest today. Now you've had students, maybe clue, please do unmute yourself, I would love to actually ask you first and foremost, what made you say yes to being a part of this? Because I'm so curious.
Well, cuz I know like, I mean, I know like, and most of all, I very much trust you. And I know the quality of you know, you don't you don't have fast things, which I think if anyone here does know me, even a little bit, you know, how I feel about things being done well, and how many things in the spaces we operate in are just not done? Well. So I was like, I saw you talking about it was like, Oh, hi,
I'll do this. But
yeah, oh, I have things to say. And I think part of it is no, I've been a podcaster for nine years now. I've had, you know, a series of different podcasts, I currently host two different podcasts. And I think the other part of it is, is I come from a PR background, I went to school for PR, I was a PR practitioner for many years. So there's an extra layer for me on this of like, I have spent so much time in my professional life, pitching media, before podcasts, or even a thing that, you know, the mechanics of a pitch have not changed in 20 plus years since I started doing here. But this in my inbox is deeply offensive, deeply offensive. It's like the lowest common denominator and you know, I think make a you have the experience of being being on the receiving end of these pitches. And I want people to, you know, to really learn a how to construct a really great pitch. And to not be scared, I feel like for so many people, as you know, small micro business owners, oh, that lose my sound? No. Good. Okay. Your phone, sometimes, as small micro business owners, we have an opportunity to get on podcast, use other people's platforms. But people don't do it. I hear it from my clients all the time, oh, I'm just kind of scared to pitch because I hear podcasters talking about how horrible the pitches are. Now, everyone here, once you're done, you're probably going to pitch a lot better, because you're not going to do these things. And honestly, the majority of the pitches I get are bad. Like, I'm just going to I'm trying to say that in the kindest way, that is probably a really nice way of saying it. So if you're pitching with thought, you're pitching with intention, you're pitching with research and thought behind it. And with care and connection for the person you're pitching. Your odds of getting your pitches accepted are so much higher. And that's really why I want to say yes, because I want I want more good pitches in my thing. And I think the thing that makes me laugh about the pitches the most is I don't take guests pitches. It says so on my website, yet every single day, we open up that inbox, me and my team, and then we're like, Oh, here's another pitch, you know, nearly one a day. It's kind of like a sport now and like, what are we going to get on the receiving end? So I would definitely want to share these pitches with you and kind of you know, the do's and don'ts and what I would maybe do instead because I want to be very directive not just be like complaining about these pitches. And then at the end, I think too, there's you know, there are some specific things I do personally look for in a pitch that really stand out to me. And those make them even though we don't take pitches, I might even consider them if I were to get them. So that is why I have said yes with a very long answer. But there's many reasons why
I love it. I love all of that. And I really appreciate they also honed on, honed and honed in on the fact that the mechanics of pitching actually hadn't changed, which tells me that there is a timelessness to the anatomy of a great pitch, which is great, because with the speed in which our industry keeps changing and moving and evolving, it can seem like oh, is this relevant anymore, but what I'm hearing from you, especially as someone who actually has a background in PR, because I came from like a DIY version, and kind of like deconstructed it that way, which is why I need to collaborate with more people to ensure that the perspectives that I gained from my personal experience is actually a shared experience amongst the collective of podcasters. So thank you so much for saying yes to this, let's definitely dive into those pitches. And I think I've got a couple of questions brewing in terms of the to accept or not to accept a pitch even though you explicitly say on your website that you don't receive them. So like how do people get invited on to your podcast, for example, but that's a question for later. And for anyone who's here with us live today, please feel free. Like if you've got questions, pop them in the chat and we'll either address them at the time if I feel like it's the right time or definitely think until the end, so we got you no worries. So Maggie, please take us take it away with the pitches that are apparently
seen this one a couple of weeks ago, and I saved it for this specific purpose. And the subject line of this one I will admit was a little intriguing how to get yourself as a guest on podcasts. And I thought, okay, that might be interesting, even though it's a topic I have already covered on my podcast. So there's a number one from my perspective of your pitching something that I have done in the last two to three years. And I don't have a lot of guests that have contacts on my podcast, I maybe have like four or five in a year. So if I've already had a guest in the recent future, you know, not too distant past recent future. the not too distant past, I like me, always gives me pause. So, you know, starts off happy 2023 I'm like, okay, great. And then it says, it immediately cuts to, I'm emailing because blank, of CEO of the blank would like to be a guest on your show. I don't know this person that might get lung. They do you do this, right? They do give me the topic, which is how to get your self as a guest on podcast. And then it is see how long list is. It's way too long. This pitch is way too long. I'm never going to read this beside from today. I read it for this purpose. And you know, she really gets into the background of this person, which is fine. But then there's also this entire thing of like, all these ideas, it's all this is where my I like getting multiple ideas from people where this breaks down. For me. It's all the same idea written in a different way. Right? Like, literally I'm like, it's how should, why should we get some podcasts how to pitch yourself as the guests on podcasts, how to run a podcast tour, how to maximise your podcast to like, it's all the same thing. But then here's the kicker, I'm like, this is where I got really heated. Exciting news. Here comes the pitch within the pitch. Okay. They're launching their blank in March, this will be the first certification programme. And they're trying to get me to be an affiliate. I do not know these people. I have never interacted with them. They have broken the rule I send my website do not pitch me we are not accepting guests. This catches garbage. And then they want me to be an affiliate. It is this is wrong. It's so wrong.
Anyone who's actually just listening to this on the podcast, you don't you haven't seen what just happened? Like, it's like it just blew the pit. Just like It's garbage. Okay,
so you know, to recap the points out, it's too long. It's a topic I've already covered. They've made it so much about them, not about me not about the show, we can talk at the end about, like, what things I really look for. And one of them is research. I want to know you've listened to the show more than one episode and that, that I think is where and make a I'm sure you'll agree is this is where you can tell people have really done their homework. And if you're going to take the time to pitch, you also want to make sure that shows a really good fit for you. My audience does some pitching of themselves in podcasts. But do I need to cover that topic again? No, no, I really don't. Here's the next pitch. Now. I will give them bonus points for being very short. But the subject line starting your business off on the right foot. What does that mean? Like what does that mean? That is I'm intrigued because I don't know what your subject I don't want to open this email but I want you and it just starts off and says I want to recommend blank is a guest on your podcast. They are the founder of this company and she helps organisations build partners a business infrastructure for early to early stage two ventures to venture funded startups now. Number one, I don't serve an audience that startups I serve micro business owners. So the audience is wrong. There's been no acknowledgement of the name of my show. I always look Did you at least name my show? If you can't be bothered to name my show that tells me one important thing. This is a spray and Pape pitch. You are going to spray you are going to pray and hopefully some of them are going to land. This is literally from a podcast booking agency. So this person is paying us First thing to pitch them and they don't know how to pitch very well, which is unfortunate. And it literally just goes on to give me this person's inspirational story, which again, if they did any research, they would know I have a not a big fan of this rags to riches storyline, I talked about it a lot in my work. So the fact that they've listless landed, again is a big strike against them. And then there's a couple podcast ideas, which are the perils of poor counting, not super well known to my audience, how to deal with quite quitting as a business owner. If you know anything about me most my most of the people that listen to my show are solo business owners, and why a fractional CFO makes sense. Again, fractional CFO does not make sense for my audience. So this guy, this guy has pictures here, this guy is wrong, this, this pitch is not good. And this individual has followed up with me 400 times. Now let's talk about follow up. I believe as someone who's done media relations, I like literally, you name a media big, you know, North American media outlet, I have put my clients in there, I have absolutely done that at some point in my career. And follow up is really, really important. But follow up that adds value. So you've got to understand, we all know what an inbox is like, we all know what's going on. So hey, great, you're gonna follow up and say, don't say, Hey, did you see my pitch? Like, hey, you know, I, I noticed you covered this last week, I really think this would be relevant. Because of this, again, you're showing a level of care, a level of thought and a level of editorial justification, because you've got to remember, when you're pitching media or pitching podcasters, they all have an editorial agenda. It's got to fit in the editorial direction of what they cover. So great example, I used to always use this when I was training people in PR agency. Why are you going to pitch a tech client to lifestyle reporter, if it's not a lifestyle thing, it's like a semiconductor. This makes no sense. So when you're pitching a podcaster, you want to be sure that that podcast, even if you love that podcast, or it has a really big audience, or whatever it is, is perfectly a perfect fit for your message. And for what you have to say. And then it's going to fit in perfectly, because that makes it really, really easy. Yes, for the person on the receiving end, it shows a level of thought so this one, just for the sake of read about. I'm not not so dramatically.
Alright, so let's take a quick pause for a second. And anyone who's here with us live, because I saw a couple of like head nods as Maggie was speaking, any follow up questions or any reflections that you gained just from actually hearing a real pitch because something that definitely stands out to me in both of the pitches you share so far, Maggie, is that they're just not being relevant enough. Or they just haven't done their due diligence, basically, on your podcast, whether it's referencing the podcast, a very specific nugget that makes you, which is kind of like a telltale sign, like a telltale sign that they've actually done something because if someone simply, for example, when they pitched to me, when they just simply reference like the name, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, especially if it's the most recent one. I'm like, now that was a low hanging fruit and you took it I want the high hanging fruit and the high hanging fruit. What it looks like to me personally, is when they share a specific, a very specific takeaway, that's not generalised in my show notes, they had to have listened to an episode to pick that out. And I would know, just from like, that sort of thing. So are there any like telltale signs on your part Mikey, where you're like, oh, yeah, okay, this person that actually had listened, like, is there anything that kind of comes up for you there?
So for me, I mean, there's some really essential things to the work I do. Where I talk about my my approach to freelancing, and oh, no solo business, or even owning a small agency. And those get we've woven into the story. That's my intention. I often talk about my work, like how there's this myth of the million dollar business, and we're all like, especially if you operate in the online business realm, I'm sure many of you do is like, We're fed this steady stream of these messages that we should have a seven figure business or we're failing. And I'm like, that is so central to my work that I don't believe in that. I believe in a sustainable business, I believe in a business that is, you know, not engaging extractive business practices. So when I see someone coming in with someone pitching me and I see this a lot, and it makes me laugh every time as a millionaire money mentor wants to be on your podcast, I'm like, out of here with that, like, I am not about that even a little bit. So if you can even do like a cursory skim have my about page and take that away, we've got problems.
Yes, and it's definitely the approach that I'm seeing as well. It's very well, so we'd like to be on your podcasts but they're not sharing why you would like them. On your podcast, like they're just expressing and projecting, like their desire to be a guest on the podcast, because they know that your podcast is like, great. And it's like it has X amount of reach, blah, blah, blah. And then it's just not, it's just, it's rubbing the wrong way, because of the intention that it's clear that they want to be on your podcast, regardless of how much value they provide to your audience or not.
Exactly. And it really, it's the whole thing of a pitch needs to be about a partnership or collaboration, and the majority of pitches I receive, and I know from talking to my friends or podcasts, the majority of pitches in general, they're about what can you do for me, you're gonna put me on your platform, and you're gonna help me and then there's, it's just this like, honestly, the sense of entitlement to like my platform, the work I've done. And I'm like, You have not even bothered to do the bare minimum here. And funny story with the millionaire mentor things. I've co host a podcast, which is about called Duett, which is about the nefarious business practices of online business, we do not have guests, we continuously get pitches from people who are doing the most scammy things. And like, it didn't even occur to you that the name of the podcast is duped the dark side of online business, that this may not be a fit, like, it's, it's wild.
Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of skimming, and there's not enough depth as what I'm hearing and the research not even to see where there's mutual alignment, that in my head should be the minimum of the very, very least, that's not happening. And what's shocking, and what I'm seeing in the comments here that there are, there's a shock, like, but wait, these people are actually booking agent, shouldn't they know? Right? And so, um, so maybe I'm just gonna, like, read out a couple of comments. So we've got comments in love the level of care p. So that's something that we've shared as podcasters, like, what we look for, like the degree of detail and care that actually put into pictures. I'm gonna get editorial agenda tattooed. So that's another one. And then the last one, which kind of leads into a question. I'm a little surprised that they're coming from podcast agencies and not from the person. Because I guess I feel like even if you work with a podcast agency, it would make more sense for the first email to come from the person, like I work with export booking, etc. So this the question I get, could you talk more about agencies versus pitching yourself, I'm very curious about your take on this.
I have very strong feelings about I honestly, probably trust like to podcast, eight pitching agencies at this point, maybe I there's three, I can think of off the top of my head that they have good quality pitches, and you know, they're thoughtful, and I don't get garbage from them. But I have really strong feelings about the fact that for the majority of people, you should be doing your own pitching because it shows it's a whole thing about being one step removed, right? And it's, it's going to be much more genuine, it's probably going to be better research, like, you're not going to just like try to do it to check it off the to do list, you're going to do it with a level of thought. And I think the thing that I see from podcast agencies is it is that cut and paste, spray and pay pitch. But the other thing is to what they're doing is they're looking at, they're going into the apple podcast charts. They're saying, what are the top 100 marketing podcasts, and they're literally shooting out 100 pitches. They're just hoping to book something because they need to fill a quota. And I think one of the things that I always encourage anybody I talk to you with pitching is look beyond these kind of big name shows. I had one of my clients come to me a couple weeks ago, and she said, I would really like to be on the show. It's currently number one in the marketing charts, you know, usually in the top 10. And I sent her some pool. Why? Because once number one is, but it's not a fit. And that's the question you have to ask yourself, it is much better for you to be on a leash podcast with 100 loyal, dedicated listeners who are going to deeply connect with you than to be completely on a podcast that maybe it's gonna get lots of reach, but it's not at all connected to what you're doing. Or it's going to call in the wrong types of people into your business. So you want to be really thoughtful and I think a lot of times it's there's that ego and vanity that we want to be on a big name podcast. But if I think about where I have received the best, you know, results from guesting on podcasts. It's been with podcasts with relatively small audiences. And so I generally will say yes to being on the podcast because even if they have 50 listeners, great. That's 50 people I didn't know before. And think about 50 people in a room. We lose sight of that in this like social media metrics. Like we need to have all these fun I don't want that. I don't want that my life. I just don't
Yeah, so what I'm good gathering from you is, especially when it comes to the agency versus pitching stuff like it can be done well, but it's quite rare. And that there needs to be that research that that level of care that one of our attendees have mentioned today. And it's just, it's just that personalization, right? It's that personal touch that alignment that's very often missing. And so the key that I'm seeing, the difference between agencies and pitching yourself is that agencies tend to be the volume. So what did you say I was like, spray and pray, spray and pray to the volume sort of approach versus a value approach when you're pitching yourself, because like, you don't have the same amount of resources, whether it's your time, your capacity, etc, to pitch at that volume, therefore, you need to be a lot more strategic and a lot more careful with who you're pitching to, because I think something that is very much missing is that the volume approach, it burns, so many bridges that have yet to be built. And so if you've rub someone the wrong way, there are plenty of people who will not give you a second chance because of the first impression. Right? And so make a good first impression, even if they not right now, that could be a future, yes. But we reduce those chances dramatically. If we come up from an entitled approach. We're like, Oh, you'd be so lucky to have me guests. And you can use silly if you want to my brand new thing. So yeah, so volume versus value approach is definitely what I'm getting from this so far,
absolutely way better for you to send out three really thoughtfully crafted pitches, than 30 ones that aren't just cut and paste, like, because your results are probably going to be the same. And the amount of damage you're going to do is probably pretty significant. And I think on the relationships part, I think I love that you brought that up, like one of the things I think we often miss is, there is something to be said for familiarity. So if you are really wanting to be on someone's podcast, showing up and being present in their social media, engaging with them, building a relationship. Now I can tell you, I know when someone is just there, because they're going to ask me for something versus someone is there to build a genuine relationship and being on the podcast might be a bonus down the road. So I think show up in a way that is very genuine and very put in places that you actually are aligned for you. Again, five, awesome relationships and podcast appearances are going to be way more impactful than 15. Really bad ones.
Yeah. And it doesn't serve either party anyway. So even if you did get a lot of yeses, if they're too misaligned audiences, it's going to call in the wrong people, as you said, and it's not going to be a great relationship builder, between you and the host to you, you know, deep down that you've only used to get to their audience, the matter or how it's going to be. So it's just really, it's just, it just gives me that icky feeling. Inside Out,
and I can think of two podcast appearances I've done at some point in the last 10 years, I regret them. Because while the shows weren't a the fit was pretty good. But their listeners are a terrible fit. And it results in a lot to this day, like years later, I'm still I'm still getting like pitch with business opportunity, like their audiences is not my they're not my people. They are not my people. And I don't really want them in my community, frankly, because they operate their businesses in a way that's just not aligns with my aligned with my values, or how I want to show up in the world. So I think just being really clear on things like hey, is this person like, yes, their podcast looks good. But are our values aligned? How we operate, especially in the world of 2023? Like, these are things you really want to consider. So I think slowing down doing that research and being very, very methodical about it, I think can go a long way. 100% All right, pitch number three,
are we ready? Yes, yes, totally ready. And again, anybody who's here with us live, if you've got any reflections or questions along the way, please do feel free to pop them in the chat because Maggie and I are totally here to like, have those conversations. And that's the whole purpose of this series. Anyhow.
Talk fast, talk fast. I know. Because the
captions and this kind of, we got you. Oh, okay.
So I'm gonna just say, first of all, the this subject line is not good. new podcast guests for you. Please don't ever use one of those. I would recommend coming up with something in that subject line that is really going to grab their attention about what you want to talk about for their audience, focusing on something like that is going to be way more compelling, versus new podcast guests for you now. So
wait, wait before you get in, can you share Why though? Like, why why does that rub you the wrong? It definitely does to me, and I'll share that afterwards. But why that that particular sentence? Why does it rub you the wrong way?
Because you can use that for anybody. It's a complete lack of personalization, I can guarantee this subject line was used on every single pitch they sent that day. It does not feel personal, it feels canned. And I don't want to fit your podcast, you need to do better than new podcast guest for you like, yeah, like just know, like, so I will. I will give this person props. Their opening paragraph is not terrible. But in light of the fact I don't take guests, it's a little questionable as you consider guests for the upcoming episodes of the BS free service business show for the next year. Okay, that's thoughtful, they're like, knowing I'm going to consider guest and then it goes in for the it just goes right to the jugular. I want to make you aware of business leader, writer and best selling author blankety blank, and then basically proceeds into blink believes every business expert expert has a book inside of them. As a culture and best selling culture expert, Best Selling Author such she understands how a book can enhance your professional network and open doors. And then it basically this person's bio. And I was I don't know how this is a fit for my show. I'm not sure the exact topic. But it's okay, because they've said me. Are you ready?
Then one sheet? Oh, alright.
For I'm gonna tell you one sheet. Oh, go ahead.
Yeah, it's gonna say for anybody who doesn't know what one sheet is? Could you briefly describe what that is? All stuff. Also a debate, by the way, in the pitching world is like to stand or not to send a one sheet at whichever stage of the process but please, quickly,
so one sheet? Yeah. So it's it's basically a design one sheet PDF, it's commonly used for PR speaking. I personally really like it for speaking, I think it's great. I don't love as much for pitching. Because you're now asking me to open up a PDF speaking you need a lot more detail. So it typically includes like specific topics, their bio, why they you know, why you should consider them as a gift. I think a one sheet has a purpose, maybe in that, like, Hey, here's my bio after the fact. But I think we can all agree that sending a PDF unsolicited is not the best. And it's requiring a level of work like it's given me 1-234-567-8910 different potential topics. Now, which topic is right for my show? Why is that topic right? For my show? How does this fit into my editorial agenda? Like there is no, it's requiring me as the podcaster, to do all the work to connect the dots. And frankly, I'm doing someone a service having them on my show. So they should be trying to a little bit harder to get this to me. So personally, I'm not a fan of one sheets. To me, it shows that you couldn't be bothered to craft, take the time to craft a strong pitch, because this pitch is maybe four sentences. And now you're relying on me to go digging through the one sheet, figure out how it fits paper topic come back to you like that is way too many steps to get a yes from me.
Right. So the putting their own barriers, basically, for you to even come to a conclusion before. Anything else.
Exactly. So like, while they've named my show, I appreciate that. They don't know anything about my show. And again, this is not really central to kind of the subjects we cover. So it can it's off from that perspective.
Yes. All right. So I'm glad that you said the same thing. Because when it comes to one sheets, I personally think it's quite lazy. Especially if it's the first time we're ever connecting. If I asked for it, that's a different story. But providing a one sheet, not only, like you said, makes me take an extra step to open a PDF, which I don't know, like that could have a virus you you don't know, especially if you don't know this person, right? And second of all, it's making me do the work of choosing like oh, yeah, why? Why would this? Like, no, if you are the one pitching yourself to someone, and it's an opportunity for you to serve their audience, then that's your cue to do your part in this process of why they would even want you in the first place. You know, and so don't bathe basically what I'm saying is don't make them do more work, especially if they don't even know you. And the only time I've ever ever accepted probably one or two pictures in total where they give me multiple topics. is because it's very timely, and not all. And the fact that they describe why. That's what I want to know, why is this relevant to me, my audience, and you know, where these conversations are ongoing. So if you are going to be proposing multiple topics, it comes with the risk of like, putting it on the podcaster to make that choice, first of all, of which topic, let alone whether to say yes, but second of all, you know, if you are going to do that multiple topic, you need to explain why, why is it timely? Why is it relevant? Because without that, it comes across as quite lazy, and almost presumptuous? Like, I'll just just pick any of these. These are my expert topics. Here you go. No, just like, make it clear why you are a valuable guest, and how you can serve.
And I think, you know, to add on that these, these topics, like, yes, there's 10, but again, it's super repetitive. They're, like best selling authors, contributing authors, Best Selling Strategies, I don't have any context for what you're going to talk about for those things. So I think, you know, if you want to give me multiple topics, I need a little backup on what like you said on what those things are going to entail and why it matters to me or my audience. And I think to that, there's a practice that NPR, they call it news jacking. And the idea with news jacking is there's a big news story, I'm going to come up with a story that's associated or a follow on to that, and I'm gonna pitch it to media that can be super, super effective, I think for traditional media. But I think when it comes to a podcast, a podcast isn't publishing, usually, it's publishing once a week. So by the time you if I covered, let's say, storytelling, I'm unlikely to cover storytelling, again, so close together. But the other part of it is to, unless you come up with a very, very unique, compelling spin, I'm not going to touch it. So I think when you're looking at, like, here's my five topics, 100% go through and cross the ones off that, you know, they have covered recently, like within the last kind of two years, depending on gas volume, because they're unlikely to come back and do that. And I know that I know Mai-kee You don't teach this, but I have seen a lot of people teaching us a tactic is like, take the story and build on it. It works great if you're dealing with like a timely news story. And I'll give you an example. was like 2003. Yeah, I did PR with back in the day. So if you were probably in grade school, I was doing PR back in the day, there was all these protests going on economic unrest and think so we because it was really new. And I worked in cybersecurity, we started pitching things around cybersecurity about that was just as much as the threat as these physical protests and threats to security with that, that was a really timely smart way to do it got a lot of traction and national and international media. But that kind of thinking does not work with a podcast, because the podcast is not operating on that same kind of news cycle. And there's really limited spots for guests. And people don't want to be super repetitive.
Exactly. And I think what what I'm gathering from this as well, like traditional media versus because podcasts are arguably New Age media, right, is that with New Age media, like like podcasting, it's important to have a timelessness element, but it can have a timely angle. So it has to be both or at least timeless, because if it's too timely, but the they want it but there's not enough guest spots or you know, they've already recorded that their next six months worth of content is not going to land that way. So if you aren't interested in pitching, then really consider having a timelessness factor and if appropriate, having a timely angle, but it has to be a standalone as well. So that no matter if someone's listening, like a year or two later, that is still relevant. What do you think about that? Yeah,
I totally, totally agree with that. And I think the other thing you have to understand as podcasters 10, most podcasters tend to work really far ahead, like they might record their seat. They're all their episodes for the season. In January, they go through to September like so you need to be very prepared for looking at podcasting as a ongoing marketing activity. If you're going to go that route versus something like well, I know I'm launching this in a I'm doing focusing on this in April, I need to be on podcasts ahead of it. You do not have the ability to control the timing in the same way. And I will tell you nothing. irritates me more is when I've had a guest and they are talking to me about they want specific timing. I'm like, No, that's not how this works. And like that, things around for people I like but in general, I have a very like for example, my podcast is not in season it is coming back in March. All the topics are laid out right now. So if you're like, if I were recording with you, and you're coming back and being like, I need it to pair though my topics have a very logical build, there's a flow to them, there are themes. So you've got to really have I think a degree of, I'm going to do this as an ongoing marketing activity and be very willing to just go with the flow in terms of where it might, you might record something in May, and that might not appear till October. And that's okay. You just need to be prepared for that. And I think that often takes people unaware when they start podcast mitching.
I completely agree with that. So for anybody who's looking to guest on the podcast, like, just like Maggie said, Just be mindful of the fact that it may not be to the time that you want it to happen like it. Like, I will also move a couple of things around depending on how close I am to this person. And if I really do want to fit into their schedule, and like help them out with the launch, for example. However, it's very, that's quite a rare occasion based on where the flow is, at the time during the podcast. Like, for me, I don't do it weekly anymore. I used to do it weekly than I used to do it every two weeks. And now I do it intuitively. So that's even more unpredictable to the average person who wants a very predictable like podcasting schedule. I'm like, No, I'm not that person. But I'm very, I can be very accommodating, depending on the relationship that I have with someone. So all that basically loops back to is this is a long term thing that can have short term benefits that you can get clients straight away, like with the, with the host, like you might develop a great relationship based on the conversation. And then I'll actually kind of hire you after this. This happened before, it's happened to a lot of my clients as well. And you know, your list growth, all of that that's also ongoing. So you can get those initial like spikes as as well as the fact that this podcast episode is going to live on long after it's gone live. So if you Google my name, for example, and I'm sure if you Google Mac evening, there'll be like pages upon pages upon pages of interviews, because there's at least 10 pages of interviews when you research my name on Google. Right. And that's because I've built this over the last couple of years. And like some of them, like still pre me clients, some of them still, like Build My List on autopilot, which is great. But that's because I'm willing to let go of the timely factor, like I can take a like non time sensitive topic, and use that as leverage and a lot of like, oh, you know, I've spoken about this on this podcast that's in relation to whatever it is I'm launching. So you can absolutely make it work in your favour that way. So if you feel disheartened, like, also podcasters aren't going to help me during launches, they might, but you can also, again, take a timeless topic, and, and use a tiny angle for something that you need it for anyway, in your business. Alright, so don't like limit yourself based on a one time event that you're doing that year that you may never bring back again, at least not in the same way with that URL that's no longer going to exist, or it's going to be broken by the time someone listened to it a year from now. So timely, like, timelessness is going to be key. And you can wield the time Lee angle.
So I love that. And I think I do want to just like frame this up to like podcasters aren't being difficult. Like why are they so persnickety? Like why are they like this? You gotta remember, I have a podcast, make sure you have a podcast because it's supporting our business. So we have our own agenda, that undersection That goes into these things for a very deliberate purpose. I'm not doing a podcast as the you know, you know, passion project, it is there to support my business. So it does have to support in certain cycles and timings within my own business. And it is very deliberately designed in that way. Yes, and I will just say, even even being a podcaster is longer than nine years, Fred's nine, nine years. It's the longest game ever.
Yeah, like I've been doing it for four years now. But still, it's still definitely a long game for sure. And I realised, by the way, I think that you're on your third pitch. And we stopped at one seat and went on a huge, in my opinion, quite valuable tangent about all of this, but was there anything else from this third pitch that you had with the one sheet that you wanted to share it with? Those of us who,
you know, I think, if I was gonna do like a makeover on this pitch, the biggest makeover is I would have them put a very specific idea in the pitch that is aligned with my show. And I think, if you can do that, you will be 90% better than most of the things I get. And I know like, if you're here, you actually care about doing this properly. In fact, you're probably going to go too far the other way of like completely overthinking it. So I think there needs to be a space where you get into you know, building that habit and practice of pitching and it will get easier. I think one of the things is when you're first starting to pitch is your problem. You're going to feel some, some resistance, yes, because you don't want to get it wrong. And honestly, the majority of people, I think, have really, really good intentions. I think these people, this is a PR strategy they've been told they have to do, and they haven't really taken the time, or the thought or even invested the time to learn how to do this properly. And I think that that's a really important part of it. It's not hard, but there is a specific art to it.
And if I were to sum it up, which I have talked before, the keys to like, I have like seven elements that I think it makes up a yes, by the pitch on a deconstructed like many, many, many pitches in my time. But if I were to consolidate that even further from seven, I call it the PR method, which is me, like personalise it, make it relevant. That's all that needed. And honestly, the reason why the series actually exists is because there was one day in my inbox. When I also, on my website, it says, I'm not currently accepting guest pitchers invite only, right? So not only did it kind of like bypass that request I have on my website in itself. This pitch pissed me off, because they're like, oh, they did like the bio, I call it a bio stack when they just share the bio and expect me to pick from it like, what is it that would be great for my show. But not only that, what was real ticket for me was that they put their own scheduling link, like, oh, when you're ready to book the interview, here's the link. And I was like, Excuse me. And normally, I ignore these. But I felt that because this also came from an agency, and I'm not, we're not like bitching on all agencies, by the way, some agencies can really do it right? It just so happens that in our experience, the majority of the time, they don't tend to do that, anyhow, just I digress. But I actually wrote back to them, like, I'm always like, very constructive and very calm, like, I'm never like, you know, like, I made it very constructive criticism of like, Oh, thanks so much for reaching out, I do want to let you know that not only is the guest not aligned, and I'm sure that this person is an expert in what they do. But I found it extremely rude and presumptuous that you put your own scheduling link, because that kind of like took away my agency as a podcaster. So please, like if you ever reach out again, please do not do this. Right. And, and it really baffled me. And it honestly, it really angered me and pissed me off. Because this person, whoever the guest that was at our pitching was paying them good money, because PR agencies do charge a fair amount to do this podcast pitching. And it really makes me feel angry that a lot of money is going into these strategies that piss off a lot of people and burn a lot of bridges. And you know, the guest is not in control of that, right that the client is not in control of that. And that's really disheartening for me, which is why I do teach people how to pitch themselves, which they can absolutely outsource later on. But they need to know the fundamentals of pitching, write the fundamentals, as simple as I can put it, personalise it, make it relevant. And already by doing that, you've raised the bar. So that's my soapbox.
I actually had a situation a couple of years ago when that around the vino, when the people are pitching for their clients, the clients don't know how bad it is. I actually had a pitch wind in my inbox that was pitching one of my clients to me. Yes. And I was like, I'm talking to over my team as to like, this is awkward. And I just forwarded it to my client. And I said, Listen, I want you to know how offside this pitches, and I would want you to tell me, and she ended up terminating them, because she was like, This is not what we talked about. Your podcast was not on my list. Like they just were trying to check off the boxes. So, you know, do I think all podcasts pitching agencies are awful? No, there's some wonderful ones, I would highly highly, highly recommend, um, their pitches are always very well done, and just perfect. But for the most part, I think you're always gonna be better served by doing your own pitching, because you will be in control of who you're pitching the approach the follow up and all those types of things. Because a lot of the podcast pitching agencies they operate on like a will get you four guest spots a month type situation. So they do anything they can to get those guest spots.
Yeah, that's the volume approach. Right? Yes, yes. And thank you for sharing that story. Because I have a very, very similar one. But instead of a client, it was actually one of my mentors who was very, very like, like they made it very clear that oh, yeah, I want podcasting to be a part of my visibility strategy this year. And I'm like, oh, that's, that's wonderful. And then I received a pitch from the agency that they hired, and he was part of the bio stack which is worse in my opinion, and a bio stack but for anyone who's not sure what that means, because I think I kind of made it up is when a agency will pitch you but they will put loads Have BIOS from their clients and like, I'll pick a client based on what their whatever their bios says. And I was like, okay, not only is this terrible because you're you're just being stacked amongst other people, they're not even making it specific towards you. So I was also kind of torn up like, do I tell her Do I not tell her, but then I sent her a voice message on boxer, I was like, Hey, I know that podcast guessing is a part of your strategy. And you've gotten some really great spots so far. But I really feel like I should tell you how you are being chosen and how you're being represented by the agency that you are working with right now. And I actually knew the agency owner. And so I felt like, am I betraying the agency owner, but like, at the end of the day is not a practice that I personally advocate for. So that's why I made the decision that it was right or wrong to tell my mentor. And then she saw the pitch because I forwarded it to her. And she was flabbergasted. And she was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even believe that this is how I'm being like represented. And I know how much that she was paying as well, it was a lot, it was like in the 10k range. And that's on retainer, by the way, like, this is happening. So I was just like, the reason why Maggie and I are sharing the stories, by the way to all of you who are here with us live, you're listening to this recording on the podcast, it's because these are very real things that happen. And that's the purpose of this, this series is to actually share the behind the scenes and what we can do to do better. And it's not that hard is a little, it's, you know, it's going to take some work, of course, it's going to take some work, the research, the due diligence, the alignment and all of that. But the water that comes from that is a potential relationship that can expand into a plethora of ways like Maggie and I, we've been on each other's podcast, we continue to collaborate in whichever shape or form, like she's brought me into her community, she has been in my community, like you know, in in paid arrangements, as well as non paid arrangements. But the point is, this relationship has kept going. And it's because we continually check in on each other, support each other. And there's no kind of like expectation attached to it. She's like, I'm here, just because I advocate for what you stand for. And that is what people are looking for, like, granted, you're not going to be besties with every single podcast of the ever pitch to, but there is an opportunity for relationship that can really open so many doors for you. So if you burn those bridges by doing practices that are currently out there, that piss off podcasters, then that is going to make it a lot more harder for you to build those bridges later on with people that they might know. Because people talk people talk.
And I think you know, to that end talking about the relationship. I think a lot of times when we think about being a guest on a podcast, we think about the opportunity in terms of the audience. Yeah, absolutely. Making a point of being a really great guest. Making it easy for the foreigners, like I can give you a list right now, I could go through all my guests and be like, amazing guests would recommend by start gold. And then I'm like, these were terribly guests, and guests who I have relationships with the guests, the guests who shared the podcast, the guests who, you know, we keep in touch, we've built a relationship. So I think thinking to like, hey, is this someone I want my orbit and an ongoing relationship with? Because I feel like for podcasters like, if you can treat them well, you're gonna build a relationship naturally. Like, yeah,
yeah, definitely not rocket science. But it's because it takes effort. And it's not. So it's not easy to do on mass. And because like we live in a world of like fast growth and scaling and everything. So everything, we tend to want to happen very fast. Like for me, and it's not so much I prefer sustainable over fast and viral. That's my personal preference, though. But yeah, so I'm sure that for those of you who have shown up today, whether you are here with us live or listen to this recording, however long it's been since the session has happened, it shows us that you care, you want to know what it is that we actually think and what we care about, so that you know what not to do. And hopefully what to do as a result of that. Because these are very weird experiences that we have as podcasters is reason why this is a serious because I was curious about this being a one off, but a lot of people want to see like various patterns amongst different podcasters. And I had to have Maggie first because like, first of all, she was the first person that she thought if someone had a lot to say it would be baggy. They're like, this is why we are here. And so maybe before we actually start transitioning towards the q&a, I do want to drop those links of where people can find you, of course. But before I do that, any last thoughts on the pitches that you brought today? Before we get to
the q&a? You know, when you think about these pitches on the whole, it's the lack of personalization. It's the lack of care or even thought about what might be a fit for me or my audience. And then I also just think like, there's a lot of stop being put in that person's credentials as the driving reason. I should pick them. And I think when you're thinking about constructing your bio when you're thinking about constructing that pitch, you know, saying not just doing the same old to boring lines. So it seems like, you know, how can you really infuse you into it? How can you stand out? I think taking time to do that can make a big thing I am. Because the majority, I will say the majority of mindset, I have this many years of experience. I've been on these media outlets. Let me on your show.
Alright, so what I'm hearing is that what we look for, in quote, unquote, qualified guests isn't the traditional authority markers, which is like X amount of years experience or X amount of money earned, etc, etc. Or like, however, where they've been featured, because that's a bit of a hit or miss, like, where else they've been featured, I would care about where they're featured. If when someone only one person has ever done this in the history of hundreds of pitches I've received, and that is they've shed where else they've been when it was a very aligned peer. Yeah, that I would pay attention to versus I've been on Forbes or Psychology Today, or like, you know, that's great. Right. But I don't know how you got those pitches, you may have played their awesome. What was it Yahoo Finance, when you get there pitching coaches? Yes. It's like, oh, this is, you know, it's a paid thing. But you know, you can pay to get like, No, I don't want that. Right. So there is a way around certain things. But it has to be done with a lot of intention, and a lot of alignment. And that just seems to be the overarching theme today.
Yeah, ultimately, I think a lot of times, it's really easy. When you are starting, just starting to pitch you're like, I don't have these media heads to drop in there. I don't necessarily feel competent in this is focus on what you do have, because a lot of these bios are constructed with a whole lot of fluffy, bullshit. Like, they're just, they're not even true. So don't ever feel like you're inadequate, or you do not have what it takes. I mean, you have a business, you have clients, you have, you know, specific things going on. So, you know, you've got something absolutely to offer, you just need to find the right podcasts. Yes, absolutely. All right. So
I'm just gonna very quickly share my screen. So for those of you who are watching the video, or you're here with us live right now, just very, very quickly. So if you want to stay connected with Maggie, she's already shared with me her links and it also pops up in the chat. And again, if you're listening to this on the podcast, if you're watching this on the blog, then these links will be around this video as well. So I'm going to pop it in the chat for those of you who are here with us live. So if you want to stay connected, you check out her website at small business co connects over on Instagram, small business boss and a small business boss.co forward slash podcast so now he actually has several podcast who has duped and trust programme.
I have the bs free service business podcast done there's duped which I co host, then there's trusted, which was a limited series. Yes. So yeah, I'm not allowed to have any more podcasts this year.
So I'll pop the links to the other podcasts that you've done as well. You're limited series one and your co hosted one. So thank you. So links will be around for those of you who want to stay connect with Maggie and access to her brain and her thoughts and her essays. I really appreciate these, these essays that you're writing, by the way.
I know chill. I mean, basically, that's what we've learned who wants to write 5000 words from ethical marketing? Apparently I do.
And trust me like I love reading. Because though the debate that you and I had, I was just total tangent, by the way, because it's a, I responded to one of your emails recently about to cool or not to call out certain people. And I shared with you a story of how one of my one of my peers was, who is a white cisgendered male by the way, he was like, Oh, why aren't you calling this person out? Like, like, you know why? And then, and then when I was like, Oh, should I should I be doing that because the person who I may or may not have called out basically said something that was very racist in their, in the email marketing. And I replied to them, so it wasn't to anyone else no one else could see this are applied them to let gently that know about the impact of their words to various groups that I personally represent. And then I wanted to make it more broad as opposed to like, I've just a personal reaction, right just said that it's more constructive than was personal. But then they basically told me to eff off. And so I shared the email and anonymized it to my community and to ask, like, Am I just overthinking this? And then my friend knew who it was. And then he told me, why don't you call them out? Why are you protecting him by by not saying who it is? And then I took that to my trauma sensitivity group. And they said to me, your friend means well, but he doesn't acknowledge the fact he's a white cisgendered male And so if he was cool this person out, would have very different consequences than you. Because you are a female. You are like I personally am on the LGBTQIA plus spectrum. I'm Asian. I'm neurodivergent. So there's a lot of marginalised marginalised identities I have, that will take a potential blowout, I will take a lot more damage basically, is what I'm saying. Right. And that came from one of your essays when you spoke about to call or not to call out. And that's the very reason why we anonymize the pitches today, because we're really curious about the patterns that continue to exist in the industry. And what we can do to inform you to kind of break out of the pattern, you do not have to do it this way, you can do it another way. And it's a lot more trusting is has a lot more integrity than a lot more intention. And there's so much more good that can happen as a result of taking the insights I'm talking about here today. So basically, I'm saying your essays. Well, thank you. So if you are, if you're interested in learning more about now ye, there we go. And now let's get into the q&a. So for those of you who are here that live, this is the time for your questions. If you don't have a question, you can share a reflection and then we can just riff off on that. And you can either pop this in the chat, you can just raise your hand to unmute whatever it is that you want to do. We are totally here we've we've allotted up to 90 minutes, we have 26 minutes on the clock right now. So we will use the time if it's needed. But we're not going to put out that time either. If no one actually really wants to say anything. Sorry.
To call on you like you're in school. Yeah, yes. I
Oh, I see. So and so. So like, Why do you think but before like, as people are starting to think about what their questions could be. A couple people are really excited to catch the replay and loved your insight. So far, my Ito thank you so much. And a lot a lot of things to think about. And we have a common thing I love the level of thought is better to be a guest where the podcaster and guest serve the audience. That's what I thought the purpose of being a guest is about. Yes, I agree. Yep. All right. So I'm just going to change my views. I just I can keep an eye on anyone who might want to ask a question, but I actually have a couple of questions myself as well, if no one else wants to go first. So let me just see. Alright. So until if, or if someone was to ask. Alright, so one of my questions. So you mentioned that you are like, what right now you don't accept guest pitches at all? Right. So I'm curious to ask you the question. And because I know I kind of like this a little as well, like, what is it that you look forward to invite a guest? If you're if your podcast is kind of like unpalatable. What do you look for in guests you invite?
So here's the thing that I look for is, you know, I generally will set out my topics for the podcast for the season. And then I start to look at it really thoughtfully in terms of where is my scope of practice? And I'll give you an example. I wanted to talk about the rise of trauma informed coaching. Well, I am not a trauma informed, I'm not even trauma sensitive. I'm a trauma, nothing like I'm just a person trying to get it done in the world who's very aware of trauma, right? So it's like, well, I want to really talk about this, because it's something I've seen more and more, I feel like there's a real potential for harm. I feel like there's absolutely some things to consider here. So I was like, Well, who it who's in my sphere, who do I have a relationship with. And I had two friends on that are therapists that, you know, are very well versed and meshed. And they actually were forte, you know, talked about, like, Lisa, who you did your trauma sensitive training with, like, they brought in a lot of NHS really added a lot to the conversation in terms of, you know, not just their, their experiences as professionals, but bringing in other people's work that I wouldn't necessarily brought in in the same way. So for me, it always comes down to as I was looking at, like immediately in my network, who I know, or who I'm aware of that I might be tangentially connected to that I'd want to have. In this. I'm also very, very thoughtful about the fact that I only have a few spots in the year. So who do I want to be featuring in those spots, and I want to make a new trickly I want to make sure it's not just a bunch of rich white ladies like, I want people with different identities. I'm a rich, I'm a white lady, but I'm not originally just I'm doing just fine. Just as a side note, no know I want to be very thoughtful about people who hold different identities and marginalised identities that their voices are being heard because so many times so I will look at it very soon. surgically, who do I know in my network? And also, like me just having myself on this podcast, we don't need more from me on this podcast. So I really look at those things. And sometimes I have to really dig around to find the right person, I will ask friends, I will go and say, Hey, like, I look for people who can come in as a strong recommendation. So I think that is really where the relationships, people who are in my community that I'm aware of, and a great example is I'm going to have someone on to talk about NLP because it is something I want to talk about. So I'm very uncomfortable with it. But I was like, who I like I asked a couple of friends are like, This is who I would have been like, okay, good. And then I got to know that person, we did build a relationship. Now I feel comfortable having them on my show. So it always takes, there's a lot of thought that goes into my desk. And I don't know that most people are that. Careful about vetting them. But I do think those relationships, if a podcast is untouchable, that's what's often going to get your foot in the door so to speak.
Yes, because because this is something that I do want to create, like a insights resource of like the, it's kind of like pitching the unpalatable, because if, if the invitation is more so on the podcast is to choose, is there anything, a well meaning guest could do to kind of kind of like proactively reach out to you but without actually pitching? Because that's where I'm like, it's a bit of a like, how to get to that point, like, is there anything that you because I think I kind of did that? I think we just had a conversation. And at the time, it just seemed irrelevant? If you're open to a conversation around sustainable visibility, because I knew because I think that was a time that you invited me into your, your sphere to talk about it, actually, we just went I thought that this may be like a timely, you know, way to ask because I asked for that didn't assume that that's that was a cube, I asked like, Are you open to a conversation around the symbol visibility on your podcast?
And I will say like, when someone says to me, and we've established a relationship, they say, Hey, I noticed you've been talking a lot about acts, like I'll give, like, NLP is a recurring guest star in my work. I'm referring to it all the time. Like, if you're noticing those patterns for me, and then you come to me and say, Would you hey, I noticed you've been mentioning this a lot lately. You know, would you want to explore that more? Would you be open to it? I may not be open to that in that moment. But I have people that literally have we've had those conversations and like 18 months, 36 months later, I'm like, Oh, it is the perfect time now. So I don't think it hurts to ask if there's a really strong tie in and there's a relationship there.
Yeah. Alright. So that's what I'm hearing a lot if the, how close you are to the person the timeliness and et Cie, instead of an assumption, it's an ask, because that helps you to to keep hold of your agency, right? It's like we asked, Are you open to? If not, that's okay. You know, so
yeah, like, I have had people I've had relationships with come to me and say, like, I want to talk about this on your show. Any I want to, for me, is an immediate
move. Because like, Oh,
I am extremely tired. And I mean, I'm probably at the like, way, at the end of the spectrum. I'm extremely protective of my community, whether that be paid or free. Like, I'm very selective, and there's a reason for that. So I think people have to be really thoughtful and how they approach me. Great. And
I'm on the same end of the spectrum, by the way, because like, I, I got my audience like a mama bear. And like, no, like, you can't just access my audience like, because I know that they trust me, because I know from actually look my looked at my stats, my subscribers, my whether it's to my podcast, or whether it's to my email list, or however, they are connected to me, they stay with me for years, one of I had a, I do something called cup of catch ups where I have my community and I open a couple of slots on my calendar just to connect my community just because right, and there was someone who booked a call. And she was there before I started this business because she saw where I transitioned from because I originally was like, the right hand person to this like rising online marketer. And then our vertical success just kind of started to diverge. And so I decided to leave in 2018. She's followed me since then, and she's followed. She followed me during when I had that role there. And even so until now, and it's been like, four or five years now. And not everybody has stayed for that long. But I look at the stats and they stay for a very long time. And it's for that reason, I know that they trust me that they're very loyal. I've had people who have invited me on to summits and my list is very small compared to the other guests that they have. The other guests have like 10s of 1000s hundreds of 1000s even people in their lives, but they told me your list. They definitely trust you because you have one of the highest conversion rates even though I have like around 1000 I've rounded down Then people on my list right now. And I very carefully curate who who that is. And who gets to stay all that kind of stuff. with occasional describe, but all that to say, the reason why you are very protective of your audience is because you know, their loyalty, you know that they trust you, and you really want to appreciate that is what I'm hearing.
Yeah. And I mean, I'm, I noticed the same for you, I actually care about my audience, like I have always said, like, I have had, I have a I made 1300 people on my list right now. People always like, whoo, I can't believe your list isn't bigger. I'm like, No. Like, that's a carefully curated list. Right? Yes. The right people for my message. My work, though, you know, the type of community I want to build. And I will say, like, I have people who literally show up, I have no idea who they are. And they'll say, I've been listening your podcast for four years. And now I'm ready to join a mastermind. And I'm like, hallelujah, welcome. And then I go, then I'll go into my email programme. And I'll see they've been opening every email for three years. And that's, I think we in a world that moves really, really fast. I think this ties in the podcast pitching, if you can go a little slower and be really thoughtful about things, it really does make a huge difference and builds lasting connections with people.
Yes. And that compound, definitely over time. So I'm seeing that there is a question in the chat box. I'll read that out in just a second. Before I do. For those of you who are still live with us, if there's something that you do want to say if you can type the number one in the chat, so that tells me that you're thinking of like asking or saying something? Because otherwise we will like wrap up very shortly. But here's a question. So this is under the assumption that you're open to pitches in the future. By the way, Maggie, because the question is, when being pitched, what email headline, subject line, would you want? 100% certainly click Oh, okay. I'm curious about this.
Well, it's not new get podcast guests. I would, I would personally, like something that really like it. It's tropic driven. And it's a topic that is really central to my audience. So like, for me, I'm a sucker for a teaser. So view like if I had been taught, I'll use the NLP one. Because we're just talking about it. Like if you knew I've been talking about NLP, a tonne, and you wanted to talk about you know, the nefarious dark side of NLP and be like, I want to talk about the dark side of NLP. I really, yeah. Yeah, I do. So I think don't hesitate from you know, crafting that subject line in the same way you would craft something for an email you want people to open. And you don't have to be click Beatty, but curiosity is absolutely the way to get me to open.
Curiosity. Okay, so nothing that you feel could have been sprayed and prayed, basically, is what I'm hearing.
Yeah, no, it needs to be like, You need to have like, you know, made that bespoke for me. And then I'll feel like ooh, I mean, you can use the same kind of subject line structure. I do think to just do that. And like, if you when you start pitching, or paying attention to what gets opened what people respond to, so you can refine that pitch over time, because you are getting a feedback loop like someone not answering or respond to your pitcher. Pitch is information and data you can be using.
Yes, I completely agree. Because like, I am open to the curiosity drivers and just like yourself, but I'm also open to the kind of like a slightly personalised version of this brand paid one that you said is like, like, you know, idea for quite rebels podcast or something like that, because they've actually put my podcast name in it. And I specifically opened the email when someone actually acknowledged the fact that there was a trademark symbol unquiet rebels, because I have trademarked Yes. And I'm like, March, no one has ever picked up on that. Or even if they did, they've never shown me. And that was the very reason I opened it. And that person has now become like, a lifelong friend. And just not not because of that, but because the conversation and the line and everything. But that was enough for me to open because there was a precise detail that not anybody would pick up or show me. Yeah, so details really matter. Curiosity matters. And relevancy again, and personalization, because at least they put my podcast name, if they just put like, I want to pitch a podcast or something along the lines of like, a podcast pitch without any reference whatsoever, who it's for, what it's about, etc, then, that is an immediate, like, I'm not even sure I'll open up
and there is there is a tactic that I know is taught generally in podcast pitching circles. That is interesting, but I'll tell you my spin on this is the I loved it's like the subject line is I loved your interview with so and so. Open up or whatever. No, that's great. Because it's showing me some personalization. But if it's one of my last two guest interviews, it also shows me you just went into the feed. So I think, you know, if you can pull up an interview from two years ago and like then, in your pitch, pull out a nugget now I know you've done your work.
Yes, exactly. So, again, it's one of those things that aren't easy to do. Like, you can't just you can't fake it is basically what we're saying, like, the BS metres that as podcasters have, they are extremely finely tuned these days. And so when if you say, if you're actually saying you're a listener, prove it, like, don't just say you are, like, as you said it, like, provide that nugget, because then we'll know from that nugget, if it was real, or if it's something that you just picked up from the show notes, like in the bullet points or something like, Nah, I know what the takeaway was. And whereas
if you say, I really appreciated your conversation about crate, can you create a safe space for community? That's not in the show notes? It's not a boat, like you actually listen to the show. And something connected with you. God, I'm now I'm like, Okay, now I'm interested.
Yes. All right. So all that that was a very interesting question. So thanks so much for asking. So I'm seeing no number ones in the chat. So I'm going to have one more ask any buddy else who wants to ask a question. I've got one more on my list. And if we don't receive any ones in the chat, then we'll know that it's our time to wrap up, because we have about 11 minutes on the clock anyhow, which we may or may not use. So I've got another question for you, Maggie. So you mentioned very briefly about follow ups in I think your first pitch that you mentioned today, like, like not following up with like, oh, have you seen the pitch but having a more value driven? Ad? That kind of loops back to the pitch? I'm curious about your take on frequency? How soon after the original when the original pitch was sent? Do you feel is reasonable or too pushy? Like where's that line between when it's okay to kind of follow up? versus not? Because I have a lot of stories from my podcasting friends, like, oh, this person was too eager. And I'm like, so what is the frequency for you? I'm curious.
It needs to be like a week later. Like, and if you want to do two follow ups, that's fine. After that, if I have not answered you, I probably marked you spam truthfully, or like my team has filtered you out or whatever the case is. So I think I would leave them about a week apart, give people time to read, you know, dissect, digest all those types of things so that you know if they're missing, because sometimes the answer after week, if you have a thoughtful follow up is going to be Yeah, that's great. I had to think about it for a bit or, you know, I'm still working on it. Those are still valid question bounds. Or like, you know, I really appreciate pitch. It's not a fit at this time. But I do also think, being over eager just come. It's pushy, and it's desperate. And I get a lot of pitches, not podcast pitches for other things. And I'm always just like, did you get my email? Did you get my email? Like, please don't ask me if I got the email. Yes, I got the email. Of course, I got the email. Like, here in 2023, we get the majority of the emails chill a little bit.
Yes. So I'm saying wavelength around a week because I don't even respond to my emails in a, quote unquote, timely manner, but it's in my autoresponder. Look, I'll respond when I have capacity. And if you like I do invite follow up that and like, but if you feel like if there is a sense of urgency to your request, you know, you're more than welcome for that. So I do invite for that. But when it comes to something that is on my turf versus there, so if they're inviting me onto their podcast, or their summit that their timeline that I may or may not like, Yep, sure. But if it's on my podcast, my turf, no one gets to determine that timeline except for me. So yeah, so definitely the same way like that. And I think I kind of I micro follow up question to the follow up question. What was in my brain just now? Dammit. Brain fog, I had a very important moment. Okay. So follow up frequency intention. Nope, damn it. I've lost it completely. Okay, if it does come back on my on my DME later, but that was all of my questions I had and I see we've got no further questions. So let's start to wrap up from here. So for anybody who again, who's interested in learning more from Maggie or if you're already in her community, and you want to just like learn more things that maybe some areas that you've never poked around on the internet, where she's residing, I'll be sure to pop the links again to her website, Instagram and like all of the podcasts that she has, so far, like who knows what happened? Okay, no more, at least not for this year. But do you have any final thoughts, whether it's a takeaway or a nugget or anything else as we start to wrap up our first ever session or pitches that piss off? podcasters
The reality is as most of you are going to do you fine, you just need to get over it and start pitching. And I think I would really encourage you to, like I said a few months ago, track your pitches, you see what's working what's not. And, you know, learn in real time when I used to do like, PR with big media, I wouldn't go out and pitch like 510 outlets, and once I pitch to and then be like, Okay, we need to refine the pitch that didn't really work for CNN, but it might work for the Wall Street Journal, like we would go through and do all these little things. I think, you know, committing to doing this as a longer term project, so you can learn as you go can really make a big difference.
Yep, I'm really glad that you pointed that out, because they're the pitch tracker that I have in my in my UBG, my ultimate podcast guesting workshop series. And there's a specific column that has like, just kind of, for your reflections for your notes, or things that you pointed out. Like, if people are consistently saying no, there is a pattern there that you need to look into to see if there's something that you need to change, whether it's the angle of your topic, the topic in itself, or maybe there's a very specific piece of feedback that they didn't like, like, in my case, when I gave feedback to the pitcher that pissed me off was like not putting the link because that's a very presumptuous, entitled thing to do. Not in my opinion, but also in my experience. And that that also, that was the thing, by the way that pissed off all of my podcaster friends, and I like to pop them awful. So just decide on that. But maybe you've been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for your insights, your wisdom and your willingness to share actual pictures that you've received. It's been so helpful. And I know that everybody who's been here today has said, they've gotten so much value out of it, they've learned so much. So you are like, You were absolutely the right person to like really kick off this whole series in the first place. So thank you so much being wonderful friend, a wonderful peer. And I'm seeing like some thank you notes in the chat as well. Thank you so much. And yeah, so for anybody who's here, again, you can have this as a replay will be unveiled on my blog and will be repurposed onto the podcast as well. So you can find all the links to connect with Maggie there. And if you're interested in learning more about pitching podcasters in an aligned way, with without sacrificing your like integrity in the process, and actually sending fewer pitches than the volume pitches that I do invite you to check out my ultimate podcasting workshop series. It's a self paced process and you can really like pick and choose which part you need to learn at this point, you might only need help with the pitching and not the before and after, like how to actually do the interviews or like how to do your research with aligning with your business goals, etc. All of that is available to you. I'll put the link there as well making sound.com forward slash UBG. And that's pretty much it for our first session. Thank you again. Thank you. Thank you so much. You. Okay, sorry.
I was just gonna say thank you everyone was great and super fun. Yes.
And thank you so much for everyone who showed up live as well really appreciate you. Alright, that's it for now. So, bye for now. Thanks, everyone. Bye