If I was so all in my business and so focused, I let my health go, Yeah, I started working out last I started practicing last. And I just got consumed by the business. And then 10 years later, I find I found myself on the opposite end of the spectrum, where ours is completely out of shape. And then that started catching up to me, it started affecting me, as far as
well, in one year, we were talking about this idea of people having profound success often showed, because they see, you know, success leaves, clues and ways and, and we were analyzing these certain people in different categories. And we noticed that some of these people that were having profound, like, success had,
what a struggle it was at times for him, and how he was super close to quitting at times. But he persevered and grew the business and now he's sold it and you know, he's like, looking to just kind of
Hey, friends, you're tuned in to the learn or be learned podcast, a show where wisdom meets curiosity in order to discover the human experience. I'm your host, Shiva D. And remember, you either learn from or you learn from now, let's get back to the ship.
All right, welcome back friends to another great episode on learner be learned. Today's guest is Craig cook. He's an author, entrepreneur, and an avid learner and currently learning about Eastern medical philosophies and medicine in Chinese medicine. Correct?
That's correct. Chinese energy medicine. Correct.
And, Greg, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. I think we have a few parallels in interest here. And I'm really excited to have you.
Cool. Thank you. So I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me today.
Yeah, no problem. So you know, I've read your bio a little bit, and I kind of have a little idea of your backstory. But do you mind sharing a little bit for the audience of what you did and how you are where you are now?
Sure, sure, I'll do my best to summarize here. I grew up in an entrepreneurial family. So that was my background of just being comfortable with entrepreneurship are familiar, I should say. And actually started working at the age of 10. In my mother's restaurant, she had a very small restaurant, washing dishes and then at 13 and became a busboy, 16, I became a waiter. And that taught me a lot of lessons. As far as being efficient, communication, working under pressure, being an organized salesmanship, all those great things are at the restaurant. It's a great place to work in a restaurant to learn all these different skills. I went to business school, studied operations management and got a minor in marketing. And at the time, I volunteered for the multimedia Design Center, and taught myself a lot of programs that were brand new, like Photoshop, Photoshop 1.0. At myself, yeah, so Photoshop, and illustrator, and Quark Express and all these programs, I taught myself that I would help other students and faculty with the programs too. So that's what really got me fascinated with technology. And then a couple years out of school, I started a business with a couple of friends from college and with very limited resources. $1,300 A piece in a computer. And it was an online business, a digital first business in the 20th century in 1996. Yeah. And it was interesting, because we were marketing, independent music online. And it was an idea before it's time, people can actually come to the site, listen to Song samples and buy the artists CDs through a secure server way back in 1996. There was no mp3 is no broadband, everyone is free to buy stuff online at the time. Yeah. And we started getting requests for other companies like hey, you know, this internet stuff. Can you do our website for a company like sure, and then we switch gears and start this journey of becoming a digital agency. And long story short, I mean, there's a lot to that whole story. I sold it in 2019. And then I stayed on for three more years as CEO in my existing role, and then left in early 2022. Took the rest of the year off and then And last year just started the whole new chapter, which involves a number of things. And my newest thing that I've introduced is a book business kung fu. And I'm sure we'll get into all that. But that's that's the short background. Hopefully it wasn't too long.
Yeah, no, that's awesome. I relate in a lot of ways I have that entrepreneurial interest. And currently I was pre med up until a few years ago, just didn't resonate with the medical field. And over time, eventually found I have a the Indian medicine. And so which is why I was very fascinated by your interest in how, you know, which I'm sure we'll get into, but how you meshed both of those together and how you improved your business and how you operated in business, with the lessons you learn from self healing and care and everything. So, you know, I love that. But before we get into all those, you know, a question that came to my mind was in marketing in 96, must have been very different. compared to today. I see a lot more marketing agencies now. What is your thoughts about that whole industry as a whole today? You think it's oversaturated? Do you think there's still room for growth?
There's, yeah, there's definitely. Compared to what it used to be. Yeah, there's so many more agencies. And I do feel it's oversaturated. Yes, I do. Yeah, yeah, back in 1996. I mean, the world was focused on traditional advertising, which was print radio, television. And I mean, there's various aspects to those with different types of publications, or cable, TV, network, all that stuff. But it was much more simple, right? Not very many channels. To really Select From today, you have so many more channels and options between digital display advertising, social media, email, search, connected TV, which is like video on like Hulu, and things of that nature. And then of course, all the traditional stuff still, and then anything that kind of bridges the gap between those two, there's just so much like the landscape has just exponentially grown as far as media goes media options. So that's a big challenge. And then the level of sophistication of marketing to with really a drive towards experiences. So before and then toward 20th century, with traditional print television, radio, it was a lot of this like interruption marketing, you're watching a television show, you're listening to a saw, right? You're reading through a magazine, and you're interrupted with an advertisement, you know, whether you're seeing or listening or reading, right. Right. Digital change that quite a bit. I mean, we still have that. But for example, email marketing was the dawn of permission based marketing, where people would raise their hand and say, Yeah, I want to hear from you. Sure, I'll opt in to your newsletter. And that was a big game changer. Because then you were able to communicate to people in a personalized way with content that was relevant to each individual subscriber, so it's more personalized, more relevant, and they are wanting to hear from you, as opposed to straight up an interruption. So with that, and and with search, that changed the game too, because there's the kind of that what's called the zero moment of truth, where there's a trigger event, someone is going through their life, and there's a life event and boom, oh, I need this. Based on this life event. Let me go search and see where I can find it. Right. So instead of being interrupted, someone's actively searching for what they need. Yeah, another big game changer. And then of course, social, and we could go on and on. But all these different experiences, right? They're all experiences. And that's what's just completely different in the 21st century, as opposed to the 20th.
Right, not to mention, now you've got algorithms that will try to find what you even, like, based on the things that you look up and stuff like that.
Yes, yeah, that's yes. That's huge. And with AI coming in, everything's just gonna get more sophisticated and pretty wild.
Right. Do you think you exited at the right time?
I do. I did. I mean, I always did it for 26 years. So I equate each year to a mile. So I ran a marathon. Yeah. And I'm happy with that marathon. I'm good. Yeah, it's time for a new chapter. And I mean, there's still a lot of great opportunity in that industry, you know, companies that are very large and established, like the company that bought my company, they'll do great. Yeah, they're just so entrenched in in everything that we're doing. You know, for more startup agencies, they definitely have their work cut out for them. But if they could specialize in a very particular niche, like, say, an agency that's AI driven, yeah, it could be a hot opportunity that that it can help them leapfrog and get in front of other bigger companies, so they can get that specialized niche and grow from there. So.
So I am curious about your book that you wrote. This business, Kung Fu, correct. Hunger, business,
Kung Fu. Business. That's good.
That's correct. Yeah. So this is where you meshed what you've learned in business and what you've learned, dealing with stress or, or martial arts and health as a whole.
Yes, so the concept is pretty much that so I studied Chinese Kung Fu, intensely from the age of 17, to 25. And I still studied today, I got back into it. But the story is that when I started my company, I was 25. And I actually took a lot of the the principles, and lessons I learned from my studies and applied it to how I thought about the company, how I structured certain things. My mindset, discipline, perseverance, you know, there's all these aspects, it is also like an integrated system like a complete system, because the system I learned was a complete fighting system. So that's the way I looked at the company is how can we be have a complete integrated model, rather than just relying on one thing that's like, you know, the trick of the day, or the shiny object of the day, especially for marketing agencies, a lot of marketing agencies do that. So I apply those, that thinking to the company, and the book is really telling that story. At its core, it's a mindset book. And it's just really core, the nucleus. It's a mindset book. And it's geared towards entrepreneurs as the context because of, you know, my journey. But some of the reviews that I've been getting, interestingly enough on Amazon, people are saying, not only is it a great roadmap for business, but also for life in general, which is pretty cool. I'm very happy to receive that feedback.
Right. Oftentimes, I can see the parallel of the business lifestyle is just almost like a way of life. You'll see many successful entrepreneurs also focus on health and other aspects. And their values are, you know, interchangeable, so I could totally see that.
Yeah, and the interesting thing is, yeah, I knew better. But it was just a lesson I learned. Yeah, when I started the company, I was in just fantastic shape from doing martial arts and also strict strength training, you know, go into the gym lifting weights. I was in great shape. And then I was so all in my business and so focused, I let my health go. Yeah, I started working out last I started practicing last. And I just got consumed by the business. And then 10 years later, I finally found myself on the opposite end of the spectrum, where I was just completely out of shape. And then that started catching up to me, it started affecting me, as far as my energy levels, like by the time I hit 40, and my early 40s. I noticed, like, wow, I'm like really tired in the afternoon. And then I'd get home at night. And I'd eat dinner with the family. And then I'd sit on the couch, start working a little bit and all sudden I just crash or just like pass out and I wake up a couple hours later and I'm like, wow, that was that's where it would never happen to me before. Then it turned out and right around 2015 16 or so. Yeah, I think it was like 46 I was diagnosed with diabetes. And I was like, Oh man, that's it. This sucks this, This really sucks. And, and I'd already had started working on my health a bit right around 2012. So when I was 42, because of you know how I mentioned how I was feeling, you know, gradually doing some stuff, and then I came across medical Qigong in 2014. So that was helping me. But when I got that diagnosis, I was like, Alright, now I really need to get into gear because of the nose ran in my family, and I know it does. So it was a very big lesson for me. And I share this in my book, you know, the importance of self care. And And thankfully, I have reversed it. 100% Naturally. Wow. Without Yeah, without any sort of pharmaceutical medications. And, you know, it's quite a battle. But it can be done. Right. Yeah, it takes a lot of discipline, and you have to fight the battle on many fronts. It's like land, air and sea. You know, all guns blazing? Yeah. Yeah.
I'm guessing it was a lot of different things we had to do lifestyle wise. It's
a Yeah, it's a lifestyle change. Like when I spoke to my doctor, when she told me the news. I was like, wow. And she's Oh, yeah, here's some options. And I said, Well, I really don't want to get on pharmaceuticals. I'm just not a fan. Right. And yeah, I worked with a bunch of pharmaceutical companies actually, for like, 10 years. Yeah, it's clients. Yeah. Interesting. And to say the least. Right, right. Yeah. So then. So she said, Okay, well, you can do it naturally. It's a lifestyle change. And I said, Okay, let's let's do that. Yeah, just like you said, it's a lifestyle change. So yeah, I just really adjusted my diet. supplementation that the doctor recommended. Got back into strength training, because it's really good. For diabetes. When you're building up lean muscle mass, it helps regulate blood sugar. More sleep, also. Walking, and more consistently getting a good amount of steps in. Yeah, there's all these different things that you have to do on a daily basis. But that's okay. I feel great. I feel like I did in my 20s. Honestly. Wow. And that's amazing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And that's through a combination of Qigong, which I do every morning, and strength training a couple times a week. And then martial arts, when I do that, anywhere from one to three times a week, and then steps and just a much better diet and supplementation. Sleep. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. I can see it, you're very vibrant.
Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah. You know, I, I understand that exactly what you're saying, you know, there's the other side of the spectrum of entrepreneurs who go all in so hard that they, the balance is lost along the way. And I've seen that firsthand, too, with my family. My family has an entrepreneurial spirit. And I saw those lessons I learned vicariously through my parents, especially my dad, same situation, got diabetes, and health issues like that. So seeing that made me realize how important the balance was to not let it tip over. And then have to work it which is, which I'm sure you can attest to is harder to work the other way. Once you start seeing signs. Yeah.
It sure is. I tell my wife in the early days as I was doing the lifestyle change. I those first couple of months, I just kept telling her ah, diabetes sucks.com Probably has that URL, you know, yeah. Yeah, I've never looked it up. But you know, that's what I would say just because it was like, oh, man, because he Yeah, like you said it was it's hard to go the other direction. So if he can cut it off at the past, and not go there. That's why I was I shared that the in my book, is that something I want to share with people like, don't do what I did learn from my mistake. Yeah. And I have a saying in my book, be of service to self. So you can be of service to others for a lifetime. Right? Because where I found myself where I was so focused and consumed on the company and everybody else and giving, giving, giving to everybody else, and not really taking time for myself. I found myself In burnout, right? I just was tired and crashing. And I just didn't even have the energy to perform like I used to. So that just doesn't make sense if that's why I say, Be of service to self seeking be of service to others for a lifetime. Right? Not just a lot of time, but a lifetime. Again, like I said, I feel great today. And I have plenty of energy. And yeah, it's just different. So definitely something and I highly encourage people to take time to do that self care.
What do you personally recommend? You know, obviously, sleep nutrition. But what is something that is unique or interesting that you enjoy that you recommend?
Right? Well, yeah, I have my way. There's many ways up the mountain. And I think everyone needs to find what they enjoy. That's, that's the first thing. So for myself, I really enjoy my Qigong practice. And I do it every morning. So normally, I wake up at like, five. And then I'll go through a series of various Qigong exercises that for people that are not familiar with Qigong, it looks like Tai Chi, a lot of people are familiar with Tai Chi and how it looks so look similar to that. Yeah, we're slow flowing movement, integrating the mind, body, and breath. And there's all kinds of different exercises. Some are very interesting, because some incorporate sound, actually. And also visualization. So it has a purging, tonifying and regulating effect, purging, get rid of the bad tonifying, strengthening, filling with good, and then regulating balance. And like you said earlier, it's all about balance. And there's something else in my book, I talk about what that we can get to. But so I'll do that. And then I'll normally meditate for about 45 minutes or so. So literally, it's about an hour and a half. Yeah, and then a couple of days a week, I'll do strength training. And then martial art is usually at least once a week for a couple hours. And then getting steps in. So that's kind of like the different activities throughout the week. But again, some people you know, for them, maybe they would prefer yoga over Qigong, which I like yoga a lot. Yeah, it's just like, there's only so much time and
I mean, really,
all day taking care of yourself with all kinds of different things, you really could but so you got to think, like what's going to balance its balance, right? Because you know, you have obligations and responsibilities, but but making time to take care of yourself. And for me, what I do is I just wake up early. So I get the time in before anyone else is up in the house. And anyone else is like emailing me or calling. Because that's just my time, right? So I just make sure I wake up early. When I first found out I had diabetes. And that's like, really in the midst of running a company. We're on this great growth trajectory. We're on the Inc 5000 list five years in a row. So we were probably like in year four on that. It's like wow, I asked the people at the because the my doctor is like this integrated Wellness Center. They have a gym with trainers and nutritionists and chiropractors. It's a super cool place. It's awesome. It's called Yeah, it's called Stark actually, it's only out here in Southern California, but it's really cool. But I asked her like, hey, only way I'm going to be able to do this is if I can get here at five. Do you guys open at five? And they're like, not really. But all right. We'll do it for you. Yeah, and so yeah, I'd wake up at like 420 It wasn't close to me either. And I just go in and and that's what I had to do. Because usually my workday started at like seven. So you'll get in there workout for an hour get showered up over to the office by seven. Yeah, so you just
work day end.
Well, at that at that point. Yeah, he's grinding still.
Probably said yeah.
Nine. Well, yeah, at that time, I would try to make it a point to leave work around 530 Somewhere between 530 and six. I'd go home eat dinner, but then I usually would work another hour or two and then get to bed You know, by 10 or so, before it was a lot worse, like, I'd say, like 2004 5678 I would get in, you know, seven, eight o'clock get home six, eat dinner. By eight o'clock I'd start my second shift. I make a whole pot of coffee and already drink coffee. 8pm. Yeah, I already drank a few cuts in the day. So I'd make that pot of coffee. And by nine o'clock, starting my second shift, I drink that entire pot. And I'd stay up to like two, sometimes three. And then I'd wake up in the morning, I'd crash I'd immediately fall asleep. Right? wake up at like, you know, 630 or so.
My coffee. Oh, really? Yeah.
Well, well, actually. I would wait to go into the office. I get the coffee from the coffee shop. Right. Yeah, it was. It was awful. It was awful. I don't know what I was thinking. I was just it was. Yeah, it was just consumed. Yeah. And I shouldn't I shouldn't have known better actually. Looking back. I was like, Wow, that's crazy. Like, why? I knew better. Like, what the heck was I think?
Yeah, yeah, happened? Yeah.
It does. It does.
Yeah, I I've experienced that for sure. You also eventually it catches up to you. You get burnout. It can. Yeah, you get the caffeine tolerance. And just nothing at that point. It can keep you up at that magnitude.
Yeah. Yeah, I found myself and one day, I was like, God, I really have to cut back on coffee because it was exactly what you just said. So I started cutting it back and cutting it back and took a little while. But I did cut it back. And then around 2012. That's when I had already been cutting it back. And I started doing certain things. Yeah, just slowly work on my health. And I've already kind of told you how that progressed. So yeah,
yeah. Especially when you're on that productivity grind. That kind of sucks. Because you feel that cut back on caffeine. And you're not as productive. Yes. As you remember, as you were. So it's like, yeah, it takes a good minute to get back to normal.
It does. It does. There's like total withdrawals. And then even like headaches. Yeah. Which I never get headaches, or I never would, but I would find myself getting these caffeine headaches because of the lack of caffeine. Yeah, it's just so strange. You're very addictive.
Yeah, that's when you realize it's a drug is Yeah, it really is. takeback app. Yep. Yeah. You'll Craig, I was a little curious. We talked about one of the values in your book being health focused based on looking back at your journey. What's another value in your book? Because you said it's mainly mindset related, especially for someone who's probably starting out? Yes.
So earlier, you meant you mentioned the phrase, it's all about balance, right? So there is in the first chapter, actually. It's all about laying the foundation. That's just like how I learned martial arts, you have to build a foundation. And in the first chapter, I have a model I call the five elements of entrepreneurship. I'm starting to kind of play with that term, because as I'm getting out there more with this, kind of thinking of rephrasing it as the five elements of entrepreneurial success, because it really, or it could just be five elements of success, because it really applies not only to business, but in life in general. But it's all about balancing these elements. And these this model is based on Chinese five element theory. The five element theory permeates throughout Chinese culture, in martial arts, in medicine and spiritual systems and music, food. There's just this five element theory that's all about balance and the elements in this classic five, Chinese five element theory is fire earth, water, mental and what and we all have this constitution that's made up of these different elements. And and again, it's there's so much to it, it's super deep and expansive. So my, just through my experience, and my my studies of Chinese Kung Fu and medical Qigong, I started to realize, oh, it's interesting. There's actually five elements to entrepreneurship and five elements to entrepreneurial success. And so the five elements I've identified are passion, and passion. And this goes in a cycle just like five element theory, the generative cycle. So it builds, right. So fireworks fire leads to discipline. I mean, passion, sorry. Fire is passion. It's like fire, right? Because it's fire within and it's an art. Right? Yeah, it's up. passion leads to discipline, okay. Discipline leads to expertise. And then expertise leads to confidence. And confidence leads to faith. So it's a cycle. And as you develop the, the elements within, yeah, we all have these aspects of these elements. But as you really work on them and develop them, it helps build the capacity of the subsequent elements, then the potential and then develops it. So it's it works in a cycle. However, it could also go through a destructive cycle, which is the reverse. Yeah, because it's mindset, right? To mindset, if you start to lose your faith, it started affecting your confidence. And yeah, it could just be a downward spiral rather than an upward spiral. Right?
You said, passion leads to discipline, discipline leads to expertise, expertise leads to confidence. And what was the last one? Or is that the last one?
Confidence leads to faith? Faith, okay. Faith, yes. faith
in faith in what? In yourself? Or in your? Yeah.
Yes, and yes. For those out there who are say, maybe on the more atheist side of things are agnostic, well, at least believe in yourself, you have to at least believe in yourself. But I do advocate believing in a higher power. And whatever it is, whatever your faith is, you just lean into that. And it's very interesting. Faith, this is the element that gets you through the toughest moments. And, and entrepreneurship, you get tested, you know, you get tested to your limit, and you're gonna have like, some extremely dark moments. So we're just feels hopeless. And it's faith is which gets you through those times. And it's, it's interesting, when you have that strong faith, it helps you persevere. And it just attracts moments of divine guidance, Providence that, wow, that just happened for me, like, wow, that was amazing. Like, how did that just happen? I'll share an example. This is the early days, I'm probably about four years into the company. I'm working at my office, and I was sharing the office with my parents, they also had a very small fire sprinkler company. And they did okay in the 80s. But when the recession, the early 90s, came it like, really hurt everything bad, like the restaurant had to close down and, and then the Construction Company, which was small to begin with got like super small. So we shared an office to save money, but so it's like an industrial office space. So it was like super cheap. And it was one little office in the reception area. And then in the warehouse, we kind of partitioned it off. And I handled a lot of production work back there. And where we partition so it gets super hot in the summer, and super cold winter. So this was like, winter time. And I like all bundled up even gloves on. Yeah, it was just just really cold in there. And it's past midnight. And it was a huge struggle not barely making any money. And I was just thinking to myself, What am I doing? Like, I'm just, I just crazy. Am I stupid? Like What's my problem? Like, what am I doing here? All this is crazy. So it just yeah, the self doubt and I like spinning wheels not going anywhere and not making real traction struggle, struggle, struggle. Why? Well, I've seen a lot of my friends you know, enjoying life. Yeah. Because, you know, beating them late 20s By then, and people are like getting their careers and doing well. And here I am, like struggling like what is wrong with me like, yeah, I was just like seconds away from quitting, like, literally, like, just a few seconds away from quitting. And I just happen to check email for some reason. And I got this email from one of my vendors hosting provider. And it came from the founder of the company, and I was like So this is interesting because it was just like this letter. And he was essentially thinking all his customers. And he was giving them the news that he had sold the company. And he was really giving a lot of gratitude to the customers and reeling and expressing what a struggle it was at times for him, and how he was super close to quitting at times. But he persevered and grew the business. And now he's sold it. And you know, he's like, looking to just kind of find time to have fun and joy himself. And I read that. It's like, wow, okay, look, timing. Exactly. You're exactly right. I mean, I got that email at the exact moment. I needed to get it. Yeah, that's, that's what I mean by like, these moments of divine guidance come in. They happen the synchronicities they they do happen, but you have to have faith in and one can't under. Get that or understand it through book knowledge, you have to experience it, you really have to experience it, and in for everyone is different. But yeah, that's why I'm such as strong advocate for believing in yourself, for sure. You have to have that self belief, but then also backed up by whatever your your faith is in someone's idea that well, hey, have an open mind, maybe try it out?
Right? You know, I'm curious about the roadmap, right? So you say, when you have some expertise you serve, which I assume you're starting to build traction, that's when the confidence comes in. And from confidence, you have faith. I'm curious, you know, in that middle period, where, let's say you're in the verge of quitting, or you, you aren't quite there, you don't have that full expertise yet, right? You're still in the trenches? Is that when the confidence and then the faith is tested? Would you say?
Yeah, so to say you're in the midst of building your expertise. And so one thing also, there's all these different relationships between the elements that can be positive and negative as well. So for example, expertise, you know, leads to confidence, right, as I mentioned, because when you're really good at something, you just naturally feel confident about it. Like you can talk about it, you know, your shit, sorry, you know, you can talk about it, a you can sell it, you're excited about it, and you just know you can get it done, right? Well, each element has that direct influence on the subsequent but it also has a positive influence on the following element. It's like, there's the parental relationship, but then there's the grandparent, the grandparent relationship. So in a sense, it kind of helps create the potential, the capacity for that grandchild element to be filled. Yeah, maybe it's so as you as you get that expertise build up. And it's going to have that direct impact influence parental relationship. On the next element, which in this case, confidence, is also going to, you know, what, maybe this little circle of faith was here. But now that potential has increased because of the continuous expertise that you're building. And once you end up getting that confidence, and that confidence is now starting to fill up that faith bucket in a sense, because confidence is really our faith. It's really like confidence on steroids, you know, because the confidence is in yourself. But then having true belief in yourself a certainty that you can succeed and overcome is different than being confident in your abilities. Like Yeah, I'm good at this. I'm great at this. Yeah. Right. But when it comes to being tested, and and overcoming, that's when faith comes in.
Right? It's like true conviction. And no matter what happens, you'll stick with it. Yeah, absolutely.
Now, one thing with the balance that was so important, though, too, is because then certain metrics, the elements can have a negative relationship to each other. So for example, confidence, since we're talking about confidence, you can have it can be imbalance, or you can have excess or deficient conditions. So let's say an excess of confidence. What does that look like? It's arrogance. Right? So when someone has an inflated ego, and they just think that they're the best thing in the world right and they and they come off and how they treat people and you Not being humble by any means. And then what it could also do is it can have that. I call it insulting. Er, that's kind of like the traditional Chinese term insulting. There's various terms, but that's the one I choose. insulting. It's a negative relationship to discipline. I'm so good. I don't need to keep practicing. just that good. Why? Why do I need to go work on that? I don't need to do that. You know? Yeah, you see that? I mean, you see it times in different sporting events when an athlete is like overly confident, and they're just not working on foundational skills or practicing the things that they should. And then I have another say in my book, if you're not humble, eventually you get humbled. Yeah, yeah. That's what happened. Just that's just what, that's just what it is. So yeah, so you can have access or deficient conditions in each of these elements. So the thing is that all these elements have to be in balance. The ideal way is that you got to develop them, and then maintain the balance for the best path to success.
Right? Yeah. I love I love that the, in order to start, you need that fire, you need that passion in something to get you going. Yeah. And the same way you said, the reverse can happen is if you start losing faith, you go right backwards on that path. I think that's interesting. Yeah. But I, I am curious about this idea of passion. Because I'm sure you've heard of it. So many people talk about this idea of passion, or find your passion or do what you're passionate about. But that's not necessarily always the easiest to figure out. Or, you know, I'm just curious what your thoughts are, because sometimes, perhaps, maybe the passion happens after you start working. Some, I don't know if that's ever been the case.
I mean, it can, everyone's different, right. And perhaps, whatever business someone is in or job, maybe it's not their exact passion, but then perhaps there's something that gets introduced into the way they can approach their work that they can become passionate about, that brings in a level of passion. With passion, when it's like taking an inventory of yourself or an assessment, or what brings me joy, what activities in life bring me joy. And or what puts me in a flow state. Or I like to call it rhythm state, the name of my company was rhythm. Right? It started off as rhythm that calm then rhythm that design group, rhythm interactive, and then finally, just rhythm. Your rhythm is everywhere. And in everything. There's like a whole other deep meaning there. But a rhythm state of flow state where you lose time. And whatever activity that you're doing. Yeah, you're just completely focused in the moment, with a loss of a sense for time. That's when you're passionate about something. Yeah. Another way to feel that or express that passion. And then joy. I think joy is a big one, too, if you're just in a state of joy. That's a passion. So you're taking that inventory, asking yourself those questions. And then for me, when I started my company, I combined two passions. I had a passion for music. I was a musician. I played guitar and piano and I was passionate about that. And then I had this passion for technology. Yeah, I explained how I was really learning and soaking it up, and I just, I just loved it. I was like, wow, this stuff is amazing. And this is so cool, like how we can communicate and all this stuff you can do. Yeah, it was incredible. And just kind of thinking about what could the possibilities, I took two different passions and combine them to create something new. And that's actually what I'm doing today. I'm actually doing a repeat because I have all this years of experience in business and so forth. But I also have just a passion for helping others developing and creating things. So really, I defined my purpose. Now moving forward in this next chapter, is that I like to create things that inspire and empower others to help them fulfill their potential. because that's where I derive a lot of joy is when I'm creating, or I'm helping someone in some way. Right. And that's why I wrote the book. And actually the book interesting enough books were my first passionate life. I'd love to read when I just get I always had a book in front of my face. Love, love reading. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's interesting to integrate that passion. So, you know, people, maybe they are super focused on one passion. But you know, there can be many, many passions, and then how can you incorporate these various fashions to create something new, is something right? It's cool, because then you can be like, unique and different. Right?
So I go on these yearly little mastermind trips with, with some friends, we brainstorm stuff on, I'm sure, I'm sure. Tried, done things like that in the past and whatnot. And well, in one year, we were talking about this idea of people having profound success often showed, because they see, you know, success leaves clues in ways and, and we were analyzing these certain people in different categories. And we noticed that some of these people that were having profound success had couple interdisciplinary fields, that they would almost connect two to three to be exact, right. And if you look at it in a lot of these successful stories, and companies, you know, let's even let's just take apple, for example. They are a software company, but if you see, they're also very artistic, with their ads, with their music with the even just the way their products. Look, it's very, and that's, you know, probably due to Steve Jobs, his vision, he was a very artistic person. And you can see that in so many different ways. And with yours is combining, you know, health and business. Yeah, I think there's an entrepreneur Myron gold, I think is his name. He does like religion in business. So there's all these, he's very successful because of that, because he connected to disciplines. So yeah, I think that's really interesting is connecting your passions to give you a unique personality, instead of just business, right? And things like that. Yeah.
Yeah, it's the having your own signature on the like, an artist does a painting and they have their own signature, right? Yeah, finding your passion gives you your own unique signature in a sentence. And that's where also with Chi Gong, so passionate about that, and I'm wanting to bring it into the business consulting. And I'm still defining that. But that's another big aspect of me combining things to have this more unique signature to.
Yeah, I'm also curious to know, if you think passion is specific, or if it could be broad, right. So for example, someone might be very passionate about the piano specifically, and just play the piano. But someone else might be passionate about music in general, and loves to just play instruments. Same way, in business, someone might be very passionate about the marketing side of business, or a marketing agency marketing in general, versus someone else just loves the game of seeing something grow and then selling it, or no matter what that business is. Curious if your passion can be broad like that?
Yeah, yes, I do. Everyone is unique, and different from each other. And what you just described in a way is where passions end up influencing people as to whether they become like a specialist, or a generalist, right, so somebody who's playing the piano, and they're focused on a piano and they become this, you know, virtuoso. Maybe they play in an orchestra, right. And there's, you know, that passion about the piano. But then, like, say, there's someone who's just has that same amount of passion, but it's for music, in general. Right. And, and in that orchestral setting, it could be the conductor, or maybe it's someone that is like a music supervisor for films or whatever the case may be. There's all these different professions of music producer, for example, right, that works with all kinds of different artists and helped create you know, their their songs and albums, but they're the ones that is helping to orchestrate everything right produce it. So, and that goes across all kinds of different industries where you can have a specialist or generalist, the other people that are doing the the, in like the agency world, the people that are or say let's say the new agency model, where you have programmers was giving programming and developers, designers, different types of designers doing UFC interaction design. Maybe they're doing traditional print design, you know, all those different flavors, strategists, someone who's focused on strategy, we have three pillars out our company, strategy, design and technology. So we had specialists that would lead each of those pillars. They were very good at what they did. You know, for myself, I did everything. But I became the generalist, because I couldn't do it all. Everything kept getting more complicated, limited time. And I did have a passion for organization and structure and leadership and so forth. And I became a generalist. And so there's, there's different ways to go about it. And there's no, I don't believe there's like, the best way it's really up to the individual. It really is, someone could be super successful being a specialist, and then the next person would be horrible at that. But then they got great success being a generalist.
Right, right. Have you heard of or read the book? The one thing?
I've heard of it, but I have not read it? Yeah, what's
the Yeah, so the essence is just in a way as to boil down to one field or one niche, one idea, instead of just spreading yourself thin amongst things. So, for example, if I'm doing this podcast, and then I start a whole nother industry, side, or maybe two different things on the side, and next thing, you know, my mind can't focus on one because I'm scattered amongst different fields. So let's say someone's into music, but also cooking and also dancing. Those are, you know, three different fields, you can't you can't get really good at one, because you're switching so many times between one another is, do you have you seen that ideology play out amongst your journey in business is, if you stay in one field, at least at the beginning,
there's something to be said about that. Like, for example, I think, at the beginning of our conversation, we were just talking about the marketing industry, the agency model, right. And it was easier in a 21st century to be more general. I think that's very challenging these days, unless you're already like established and and you have a deep talent pool, and all kinds of resources, etc, etc. For agencies that are starting up, I think it's a better approach to really focus in on a particular area, a particular niche, that could be technology driven, like say, AI, it can be industry driven, like health care. All right. So yeah, having that focus on that one thing, that specialty to really get a foothold and get you established, and you can really make a name for yourself with that particular thing and grow. It could be, you know, AI in for health care, right, you know, an agency that specializes in an AI, but in the context of health care, right, so that'd be like, the one big thing, right, that someone could focus on. And I think today, it's quicker for you to gain success with that approach. It's not the only approach though, if someone wants to go the other route, they could, it's just going to be a tougher battle, I believe, because everything continues to get more specialized, as we move forward, as more and more gets created out of everything that we have at our disposal these days. Right,
which is why I think what we were talking about earlier with combining disciplines kind of puts you in that unique position to stand out. Yes.
Right. And it's interesting, because the way you describe that book, you say, Don't do this, this, this focus on one thing, but like, in my example, I combined two passions where I did this and this and I combined it, but then that became one thing. So it's all a matter of how you how you want to interpret things. And and again, you know, I, this is what I found is again, I always like to say this, everyone is different. Everyone is a unique expression, a unique divine expression of the Creator. And there isn't one approach that works for everybody, because we're all so different. Right now When we would engage with our clients, we always had a custom approach because all our clients are unique and different with their own situational contexts, their needs, their challenges, their markets, etc. So there's the approach where you could take a template and try and make that work for everybody. And it can work pretty good, maybe for a lot of people, but it's not going to work for everybody, one, and then two, when you really look at problem solving, and creating solutions, when you really focus in and, and make something that's custom tailored for them, then that's when you're gonna get the best results. That was the experience I had with our company. And I feel that is the same with individual individuals with whether it's health, whether it's business, you know, what works for you, what, what ignites your passion was going to the that's going to spark the fire in you to go out and be disciplined, and build that expertise, right, etc, etc. And it's different for everybody. And that's what different aspects of life yeah, with health, career, business, family, etc.
Yeah, I love that approach. Because I think oftentimes, many people forget how unique each human being really is, because of how many variables are going to go into shaping the person at that exact moment when you're meeting? Right? Right. There's, there's so many factors that just go into who, who someone is at the moment you see them just to eat, which requires a unique approach for each person, almost.
That's right, because why should then this is the challenge that many of us come across is people getting judged, you know, preconceived notions of how they are because of whatever that situational context is so as to meet, right, as opposed to meeting someone and having that blank slate and then experiencing that person for who they are based on their entire life experience. Right. Right.
Which is why you also don't see people succeed when they try to emulate somebody else. Because that authenticity portion, isn't there.
Right, right. You gotta be yourself. Yeah, no, that's That's huge. That's that's very, very true. I think. I would say all of us probably have experienced that at some point, as we're growing up, like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That didn't work for me. Yeah, that's, that's big. Yeah. And more so than ever, because people are just seeking out authenticity, and they're able to detect when things are inauthentic. Much easier than before. It seems. So yeah, it's super important to just be you and do you.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you see more successful people often just own up to that. The mistakes the accountabilities their their life, everything.
Yeah, yeah. 100% 100%. And that's where I think also you find a symptom of that arrogance is sometimes when people when the competence is excess, and you get into the arrogant territory, or they might be trying to emulate someone else because they feel like at that level, right, yeah, that could be another manifestation of that because that you know, something. Oh, yeah, I'm just like, so and so. Right. Like, yeah, no, you're not.
I forgot who it was a very successful person. And he kept saying on this interview, I he said he'd say, I have to keep reminding myself that I'm not I'm nobody. Because otherwise that over over inflated arrogance starts to creep in like I've done all this. Look at me, this is who I am. But that's not his authentic self. His authentic self is what got him there to that level of success, money, right, whatever recognition. But if you let that over inflate, then you're no longer that authentic self. And like we talked about earlier, you get down or something happens. Yeah,
yeah. Happens. Right? Yeah. i My way of expressing that sentiment was like, talking to people. Oh, you know, or just get introduced? And then Oh, wow. I'm just another dude. I'm just another dude.
Yeah,
I'm not special. Just another dude. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
So Craig, I want to ask you one more question. question that I always ask my guests at the end of the show, which is, what is one life lesson since this shows called Learn or be learned? What is one thing that you learned from others or you want others to learn from you as like a take home message?
Yeah, that's a great, great question. Well, what I've learned from others, is what's really most important in life is our relationships at the end of the day, all right. All the material things in all that, yeah, they're cool. They're nice. But at the end of the day, what kind of quality time are we spending? With the people that we value in our life? Yeah, how healthy our relationships? Yeah, how much time did we dedicate towards them?
At the end of the day, when it's all said and done, I feel that one big lesson I've learned. Now, what I would like people to learn for me,
I think that the aspect of balance, like we had the discussion about balance, life is really about balance. And that ties into with the relationship aspect, because your life has to be in balance in order for you to have quality relationships.
Yeah, I mean, my friends always talked about this idea of you want, you want the quality of time, which is, you know, often brought by if you want quality of time, you need money to have time, you need people to spend that time with the quality time with and you need health, to have that quality of time. Right. So like the relationships, health and finances? Are those three pillars that give you that quality of life? I believe those three pillars can often give you that sense of, you know, happiness and freedom to focus on what's important. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the freedom to be right. And that's like the ultimate. Some of the big things away went into business, too, is like that freedom of time, you know, to be free. Yeah, I value freedom quite a bit. But it's interesting, as he chases the scenes, they are like you just mentioned, you can end up in the trap of enslavement to. Right if you're not careful. So that's why it's all about balance, because you got to be balanced along the way throughout the journey. Otherwise, you you get enslaved and bad things happen. Yeah, like bringing his health for another could be relationships.
Yeah. If you over focus on one pillar, the other two aren't growing at that rate. Right. Which foundation starts to crumble a little bit? Yeah,
yeah. Balance. Absolutely. All right.
Craig, thank you so much for being on the show. I had a great time chatting with you.
Thank you. I really had a great time to thank you so much.