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Amanda Waters--Desa - 3:16:22, 6.49 AM: Otter Voice Meeting Notes

Amanda Waters--Desa - 3:16:22, 6.49 AM

Amber Watkins54min

Speaker 1

00:51

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the thoughtful counselor. Today I am hanging out with Amina waters. I really excited for her to be here today because I've known her for a very, very long time. But I also really have appreciated all the work she's done in college counseling and mental health. And I thought it'd be a great opportunity for her to join us today. And just talk about what's happening on college campuses. What are some things we should be thinking about when it comes to mental health in an academic setting? And hopefully, how can we can continue to serve students. So welcome, Amanda, tell us just a little bit about who you are. And we're what work you're currently doing.

Speaker 2

01:36

Thanks, Lisa. Well, I'm really excited to be here. And I am a clinical psychologist and have been working in college counseling for most of my, all of my professional life, and most of my training experiences through through grad school. Currently, I am the Associate Director for the Counseling Center at UMBC. And it's a midsize public institution. And I've worked in small institutions, private public, large institutions, so have a decent breadth of experience, but also feel like I'm constantly learning new things all the time.

Speaker 1

02:18

Awesome, so I kind of want to kick it off, just with your introduction first. So tell us a little bit about what an associate director does. Exactly?

Speaker 2

02:28

That's a good question. So I do a range of things that includes, you know, still want doing some one to one individual therapy. Sometimes I'm able to do some group therapy as well, I do a lot of management of the center clinic itself. And so thinking about policies, procedures, making sure informed consents are up to date and liaison in with with colleagues across the institution as well. So clearly close contact with her or folks in Residence Life and throughout our Division of Student Affairs to make sure that as students are, well hope human beings and have a full experience of college on their own, and in living life in this community, that there's kind of a wraparound services and support for those who have those needs.

Speaker 1

03:30

That's actually a great example, because I often forget that college counseling is often a part of Student Affairs in some way. So either connecting with ResLife, or, like here at my university, we have a care team, so making sure that we're addressing students concerns like academically, but also mental health, wellness, and then like just living situations. So realizing that it really does have a holistic approach. mode, I think we will I definitely forget that when I just see like, I walked by the College Counseling Center, I don't really always see it as an integrated part of my, my campus.

Speaker 2

04:11

Yeah, yeah. And my office is integrated with our medical team and our health promotion team as well. And so And of course, backed up by really amazing administrative support. And so, you know, we think about wellness is holistic and includes all these different aspects of who we are as people.

Speaker 1

04:34

Though, kind of around those areas. What thoughts do you have on if she didn't if students should receive all of their mental health services on campus? So should we be supplementing their retail healthcare with maybe private practices our off campus community centers, or is it realistic in today's current climate to think that are college students who get all of their mental health needs met at their counseling center?

Speaker 2

05:07

Yeah, I think that's a good question. And I think I'm kind of backing up and thinking about the premise of that. So anything about mental health, right? Like, it's not just about seeking help, therapy or counseling services, right? It's about thinking, bigger than that. And we don't get all of our physical health needs met from a medical center. And so when we think about mental health, it's about how are we interacting with community? How are we being supported by friends, faculty, members, family members, siblings, people not connected to the institution, the University, and, and being able to be really intentional about how we, how we think about mental health is as bigger than just, oh, I have a problem. And so then I would go to a counseling center. For those students who need need therapy or want therapy and can access services at their college, or university, I think that's great. A lot of the things that are, are tough is the demand and meeting the demands or services. The Center for collegiate mental health out of Penn State is a great research. institute that, that gives us a lot of data on college counseling. And for years, it's the narrative has been the same of like you can't hire yourself out of and the mental health crisis that is present on college counseling and college campuses. And so how do you get creative? And how do you think holistically? And how do you think big picture so that you can really support what the needs are? So some guys like necessarily means that you get really specific about like, what kinds of things you can support and treat within the center? And what are the things that would be better served by other types of services, or supports either around the campus or around from the broader community? Thinking about, like, it could be specific presenting concerns. So students presenting with specific alcohol or other drug related questions or concerns, students with specific disordered eating patterns or behaviors. Some, some students have higher levels of need that, like, you know, short term counseling, which is a lot of what we do in the counseling center world, can be really, really beneficial for a lot of students. And given what the needs are for other students do want to make sure that they're connected to the services that are appropriate for them presenting concerns at that time. And so we, we want to be facilitated and not a barrier and not say, like, we can't do this, we can't do that we can't do this. But really be able to set folks up well, for whatever the support is the most benefit.

Speaker 1

08:05

Yeah, I really love when you talk about how mental health is more than just the academic services we want to offer on campus, really realizing that it's the community and their friends and their family and the people around them who really support the students outside of maybe their 30 to 45 minute mental health session we have at the counseling center, or even the classes they take on campus. And really thinking of it from a holistic approach in terms of how we're conceptualizing them in their in space and time realizing that, like we can offer all the services in the ward in the world, but if they're not getting what they need out off campus or with people closest to them, then we really are serving them in the ways that best benefit their growth.

Speaker 2

08:59

Yeah, I think it's it's a all together kind of effort, right? I think the COVID-19 pandemic really highlighted how our physical health and well being is really tied up in NAFTA up anytime as well being and my wearing a mask protects you and you're wearing a mask protects me. And this really I'm really grateful for like a community. And I think with mental health, we have to recognize the same right like so it's not just about can you access counseling or therapy, which I think is really important. But it's also about like, are there people around you to support you? When I'm feeling lonely? Can I reach out to somebody and say, like, hey, like, do you want to hang out? Do you want to grab dinner and being being able to really connect in those different ways? And I think about this, the mental health supports in in the world and I think our college campuses are kind of like this microcosm of the world in some ways, and and really just being able to figure out how do we, how do we weave together network support, that it's not just the counseling center that it's a whole bunch of different people playing their part and doing, doing what they can and showing up as, as the humans and the full selves that they are in support of the objectives and the goals that the night we all have for, for our work and for the world in general.

Speaker 1

10:33

Yeah, the generic really changed how we view higher education as a whole, especially this, it felt like before, there was really this really fine line, almost black and white between what universities could or were capable of doing and what they just couldn't do no matter what. And then now realizing that that's really changing, but then also, our students are adapting to that as well. So either getting services virtually, or attending courses in kind of a remote hybrid model. And so when I hear you talking about mental health, and how we serve students, I also hear that flexibility, like how we approach students, how we conceptualize them and want to work with them also has to be flexible, and realizing that, like, not just the kind of textbook example of like, not every client is the same, but realizing that students are changing so rapidly from semester to semester. And how do you adapt in that change in that wellness model?

Speaker 2

11:43

Yeah, that's a good question. I think our students in a lot of ways keep us young, and, um, you know, like, constantly forcing us to innovate and do things differently, or, or creatively in ways that like, we're just not options when I was a kid or in college, right. And so, folks who are, are more well versed in all the social medias in AI, and yeah, just being able to meet people where they're at feels really, really important. And I don't think the needs are this are any different? And before right, then the mediums might be different. So we still are constantly, constantly asking ourselves and each other, like, do I really matter? Do you really matter? Does what I'm doing, actually make a difference? And, like, how do we hold hope in the world? for ourselves and for each other? And yeah, like, like this constant question of like, like, am I worth it? Am I worthy, and, and I think, in different ways, like, social media has created pathways for people to be seen in in ways that they haven't been before. But then there's also opportunities to raise those questions even more, like am, I put up this space, and maybe they don't actually know who I actually am. And, and maybe I'm not actually good enough, and I need to be better. But I think it's like just being able to figure out and attend to the real human needs, like we're not, right, fundamentally different in some ways, that prevents us from, from being able to, like, do similar things. And also like really fundamentally, like, I, my hope is for my work to like, reflect that. I see students and I care about them, and I want the best for them and I want them to be able to do the things in the world that is set up before them

Speaker 1

14:15

Yeah, I love that so much because it really is also a reminder that we're we're trying to figure it out ourselves. And I think it's our so you talk about social media. The the connection that students are getting with people all over the world that they feel seen by is so big, it has made all of these really cool, positive connections and how people see themselves and others when maybe they don't see that in their community or like kind of in their immediate vicinity. But then also just the unrealistic expectations that also come up with social media. And this idea is that we put our best selves, online and often that doesn't necessarily speak to the channel. just for having in in, you know, and one of the questions you asked is how do we hold hope? And, and I think that's actually where more than ever I see more and more people sitting in that space of how do I hold on to hope? How do I know it's here? How do I help others know that as well, especially when the pandemic made us so far parts, and so many, especially physically? And then trying to come back together figure out what that looks like now?

Speaker 2

15:33

Yeah. It's hard, because I think sometimes we get so isolated and, and that, that disconnect via zoom or, you know, whatever, technology mediated relationship, right. And, and I think all of these tools can be really helpful and facilitative. And I think that that's not necessarily sufficient for the rest of our lives, right. Even prior to the COVID 19 pandemic, we're talking about the loneliness pandemic, and on college campuses, and this generation and Sarah catch, and Lipson and other researchers have done a lot of work on that and, and looking at, you know, like the quoted statistic phrase, like, you know, feeling feelings of loneliness is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day and has the same health liabilities as that. And, and so when we're talking about connection and community, we're really underscoring that. It's not just about, like, when someone has a problem, that they're able to access therapy, but it's about on the everyday, daily grind, like, do you have the people were in it with you? Can you just be like, hey, like, I have this really weird experience, let me tell you about it, or, you know, whatever was in the dining hall was really gross, right? Like today, so don't go there. Or whatever it is. I'm sure dining colleagues definitely are working hard at it. And so I'm sure that's not a frequent complaint for students. But, um, you know, like that sense of just being able to lean on your community on a on a day to day basis, but those are the things that are going to move the needle. And that's where that's where the hope is in that connection. And I will always, always push for more community, more network, more support, because before a retro pintuck, or a current mentor of mine for class, but always talks about connection is prevention. And connection prevents all sorts of different mental illnesses, but also like physical health of homes, right, and all sorts of different things. And when we talk about academics, we think about how people, like form study groups and connect with professors, like go to office hours, right? Like, these are all things that we're connecting people, with people and people with ideas. And, and those are the things that, to me is where the hook is, that's the light. That's the that's where the differences aid. In when

Speaker 1

18:33

you're talking about connection, especially, you said something earlier, that kind of stood out to me, as you said, that we you can't hire yourself out of a mental health crisis. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that means?

Speaker 2

18:46

Sure, yeah. So, um, the rate at which which demand for college counseling services like individual therapy, group therapy, are growing. Even if you're losing enrollment, you're still needing to hire more providers to facilitate individual and group therapy, crisis management, all these kinds of different certainly clinical services. And so when we're thinking about, like, how do you actually serve students, like, you absolutely have to have the personnel on staff to do that. And there's not enough therapists and providers out there to hire. And so being able to kind of figure out like, how do we be strategic about all of this, how do we how do we, how do we leverage the peer support options? How do we think about what ResLife is doing? I keep picking on them but ResLife has like you know, huge opportunities like their forte, it's forced community right. Or people who've opted into the horse community and dining and transportation and classrooms and like, like the public health idea of like going up river, right? So if you, if you think about the counting center is someone like a place where people can go if they're in crisis, right? Like you keep, like fishing people are like drowning people out of a lake. And eventually you're gonna have to figure out, like, why are people keeping? Like, why do people keep falling into, like, in the first place, and so all of these other services and, and people and offices and, and faculty can really create that network and say, like, actually, we're gonna, we're gonna keep people from falling in, we're gonna help in this particular way. That's my job. That's my role. I'm not asking people to step outside of that, but I think being able to really be thoughtful about how do you leverage that community to do their part and to see the things and and those are the things that will make all the difference. So that as, as institutions continue to hire, because I think that's an important part of it. It's not mutually exclusive, right? Like, you have to hire people. And there you will not be able to hire enough people to, to do to do the crisis work on the back end, if you're also not attending to the wire people falling into the lake in the first place.

Speaker 1

21:33

Yeah, and I love what you said, especially because it reminds me of just the difficult nature in student services, which is as a profession, student services, as a whole has barely been struggling, especially with a pandemic and not being able to retain people, just several other things I, I work in Student Services, in a way as well. And definitely not to pick on Res Life. But I think what you're talking about is so beneficial for us to remember how many services campuses offer and that each one of our areas are struggling in our own ways to create that community. And I think especially at my university, there's, there's a freshman requirement now that if you're a freshman coming into the university, you have to live on campus. So I do think it's trying to create that community. But the requirement to live on campus doesn't necessarily mean also that the community is automatically created. And so when students are struggling, just by coming into a new university, and not knowing anything, and then they're also kind of, like required to be in the space. Realizing that it's not just like the counseling center that needs to pull away. It's also I think about like women's studies, or like a women's center, or here we have an LGBTQ center, but also like just the different services across the campus. So either dining, housing, but also like Career Services, right? There's all of these different student affair offices, that really do have a lot of intersection with students, where community might not actually be the first thing they're thinking about.

Unknown Speaker

23:23

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1

23:27

So something that was a little bit surprising to me that I I think was just my own lack of awareness was as a college camp counselors, when working in a call center, you are talking also a lot about research, emerging research, but also health disparities. And so how has knowing about research and health disparities either impacted your work or? Or why Why have those studies been important for you to know?

Speaker 2

24:00

Oh, yeah, it's vital. I think, that like, as, like, someone who works like kind of in the academy, but not in the academy, being able to, to read the research on my colleagues and being able to implement it feels really vital, right? Like, they're not like, folks or folks are researching, like, the things that we're doing right. And so being able to be informed about like, on either direction, right? Like it's translational science and being able to really figure out like, on the ground, like, what are we doing that actually is making a difference to people? Does it actually matter? Right, like, so maybe that's the question for me, like, Does my work actually matter and, and so being able to recognize the different ways in which like things are getting measured, and you can to some extent, like that's how the academy communicates within the academy. rays through research and so me able to really be thoughtful about, what are we doing? And does that reflect like the actual science and the data that's out there? And that can focus our efforts and think about like, what are we spending our time? Or how are we spending our time and being thoughtful? To best support our students? And then also like, what are the emerging ways that like, maybe we're not paying attention to that we really need to, and I think the, you know, our research colleagues who really helped inform that, my hope is to really be able to, like implement the news that are being written about and better understand from our academic colleagues,

Unknown Speaker

25:48

we just vibrissal

Unknown Speaker

25:51

almost

Speaker 1

25:52

surprised in some ways, and I think it's really because, like you said, You're, like, by proxy to the academy, like, you're in a university setting, this is all happening around you. But then, also, I've heard just over time, a lot of frustrations or even critiques about not being able to be a full time clinician, or RC full time clients, and also be able to integrate research or even read research. And so how are you able to bridge that gap and navigate that process with? Also maybe not feeling completely overwhelmed? If?

Speaker 2

26:32

Well, let me know, anybody, okay? If you found that magic formula, so I definitely have not figured that out. Sometimes it's people sending me articles and saying, like, Hey, I thought of you. And so to me, like that's like the community at work, right? Like we're holding each other in, in mind, and being able to, like, know, like, this will be really helpful. There's a lot of professional organizations out there that really bring people together. So I'm involved in arguments in an organization for Clinical Directors that's been really, really helpful to like, kind of benchmark against each other and be like, hey, like, I have this problem. Does anybody else have this problem? Some of it is like, sending around articles. Some of it is like, you know, the Chronicle of Higher Ed or something, just like in the news that's reflective of some of the work that we're doing, and then going backwards and figuring out like, is there a research article on this? How do we figure out a better way of, of understanding this are a different way of understanding this problem? And, and or solution? And so I was thinking the other day about like, like, we're, we're doing some single session therapy. And so really, the hope is to meet students where they're at and figure out like, what is the presenting concern right now. And one of the general philosophies is like, you know, therapists are really interested in therapy, but other people are less interested in therapy, and they just kind of want to be better and, and be done. And so what can we do and like, I think, that single session to best support them. And there's some really great emerging data around that and in a variety of different settings, and it's not new, but it's, it's really fun to get to read some of the things that are being studied out there. And in particular settings.

Speaker 1

28:37

Oh, yeah. You're giving us just so many great examples of what it really means to be a lifelong learner and do lifelong learning. So not just thinking about, like, how do I find this researcher who sent me stocks and things like that, but then also, when he talks about the Chronicle of Higher Ed, I think of just also having some kind of connection or having your your thumb on the pulse of what is happening in higher ed and what is happening on college campuses. So either through organizations or through colleagues and friends. But then I also think the the willingness and vulnerability to want to take in that information and then try to change something as it's happening, and not just like kind of waiting and seeing what goes on next.

Speaker 2

29:29

Yeah, I think it's a hard balance. And I'm sure other folks have some experiences in the variety of different fields, right, but like, how do you be responsive and not reactive? And being able to like have some intentionality and the big picture in mind and I think that's where, like, what is like the, the various ways that you're oriented to the world around you, right? Like what is the hope that you have Do you want to do in the in the world? What is your piece of the work? And, you know, some of it is about, you know, teaching future therapists. Some of it's about making sure that when I'm sitting with a student who's in crisis that they feel seen, and they feel valued. And that they know that, like, they're not alone in that moment. And so being able to, like, hold the big picture in mind, as you're also navigating the, the micro day to day moments.

Speaker 1

30:34

This may be putting you on the spot a little bit, but he said something that kind of stuck with me, which is being responsive versus reactive. And I was wondering if you could give us an example of what that could look like, especially in a counseling center?

Speaker 2

30:50

Hmm. That's a good question. One thing that comes to mind is, so last semester, this fall, this past fall, we in our center decided to try out online scheduling for students. So that was something that students can kind of ask for, and like, you know, I'm a, I'm a fan of just in my life, like, I don't want to play phone tag with somebody to try to figure out like, Can I schedule an appointment. And if I think about it, like, after the office is closed, like, oh, like, have to think about it when the next time they're open. And so we tried it out, and kind of fell on their faces with it. And so we tried to be responsive to you know, the student need to attack like the signs of our time, right, like online scheduling, kind of, like, somewhat expected in a variety of different fields and circumstances. So why not and, you know, seeking out mental health support, and there was just like, a lot of barriers that came up. And yeah, just a lot of things that just really didn't work. And so we had to, like, break it down. And it felt like we're trying to figure out, like, what is what is the best way of making sure that the access is there for students. And also not like, giving up in a way that's problematic. And so I don't know if that's like really an example of responsive versus reactive. But I think being able to be thoughtful about like, and planful, like, we do hope to turn on mine scheduling back on, and make sure that it actually meets the needs of the students, because the way that it was working at the time was actually not helpful for students, it was not facilitated for them actually getting an appointment and being able to meet with somebody. And so really, the hope is that we can do that in a way that actually does happen into the future. I'm still working on that problem right now.

Speaker 1

33:05

No, I think that actually is such a great, tangible example, for all of us, because we understand just the difficult nature and trying to make an appointment. But I think also for our office. Like our reaction to COVID was like, oh, we'll go online. And we'll make these appointments online. But then the responsiveness of that, was it thought through very well, and sorry, I'm sure your office had similar problems with like, oh, this was great in theory, but we didn't really think about if our university could support this, or like, what it would look like for our student population. Like, just because my dentist does it doesn't mean I can do it. Right. And, uh huh. Um, and just their responsiveness is, you know, like, now that it's, we're coming up on our third fall of this virtual hybrid COVID model, we finally found a system that actually works well, and being okay to pay for it. Or before we were like, Oh, let's see if we can do something cheaper. And so I think of that, right, like, it's also you can be reactive and responsive at the same time. But then, kind of going back what you said earlier today, the intentionality behind your thought process is really what makes it responsive long term. And not just like a short term like oh, what do we do?

Speaker 2

34:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's like, that's really important when you're thinking about how how do you implement and incorporate and account for health equity, right, like we were talking about earlier about, like the sense of there's all these health decisions And if you're just reacting, then it feels like in, like the sense of incorporating AI goals feels like an inconvenience versus being cranfill. On top on saying like, actually, we're centering these people who have not been centered ever before. And being able to be really be intentional about that and and figure out like, historically, mental health counseling has not been accessible available. Yeah, any of that for, for marginalized and oppressed people? And so how do you create recreate a system that's different from that, that actually creates more pathways for people who have not historically access care? When I think about college campuses, like, it's like this great opportunity for whoever is enrolled to access support. And when you're thinking about referring students, or just in life, in general, when people are trying to access mental health care, they're trying to call individual spiders and see if they have openings and all of that, and there's some good research on like, you know, for black Americans, it takes like 10 phone calls, compared to like, remember how many white Americans and then for Asian Americans, it's not necessarily that they'll even reach out for support. There's some, some data out there around. It takes Asian Americans about four years, four to five years to reach out for support from anybody following some kind of need that is related to their mental health. And that means that they could, we could miss them in their entire academic college career. They're there for four years. And so how do you increase those pathways? And and maybe it's not about individual, right, maybe that feels too intense or too much like you're airing your dirty laundry in front of a stranger. And so how do you create other ways and other offices, tennis or spirituality, women's center LGBTQ centers, right, like other cultural centers to really kind of bolster the support, and, and create good relationships, good, solid relationships between the different offices on campus so that they can do a warm handoff, they're like, yeah, like, you know, what you're telling me is like, I want to be here for you. And this is kind of outside the scope of what I can do. I feel like I'm able to support you in. And so let me let me then use the Counseling Center. And not just like a drop off, but like, hey, like, I know, these people there and like, yes, it kind of is scary, but I can, like, introduce you and make sure that you're well taken care of. Yeah, I'm just

Speaker 1

38:05

a little, uh, not, what is it? I'm not surprised. But I am shocked. Just by the, like, the statistics of just, and I, you know, a black woman, I know that the barrier to seek help is so high like not just personally but then once you get started, you hit so many knows before you can even get an appointment for like a maybe. But just the idea that Asian Americans are not seeking services at all, I think was just so surprising to me. Yeah. I see that, especially because just, you know, outside of the luxaviation, hey, are black lives matter in kind of these protests in these advocacies projects that we've seen over the years? It also makes me really think that, I don't know if we're reaching people in the way we should be reaching them or we need to be reaching them. But then also, like, how do we, I don't know, how do we advocate for them? How do we find them? This could be more of an existential question for another episode, but I think really just kind of caught off guard to hear the numbers when I myself, do health disparities work and just realize that the disparities is, is so large, like the overcoming disparities is so big.

Speaker 2

39:40

Right? Right. And, and that's where I think community again comes to mind right? It's not about the individual like pulling themselves up by the bootstraps and saying, like, actually, like, instead of waiting for years for support, like I'm just gonna go tomorrow or whatever it might be right like, that's an individual solution for us. systemic problem, and it wouldn't be a systemic problem. There wasn't like bigger forces that play. And so when you think about combating racism, like, that's a mental health, like, pro mental health move, right is, if we eradicate racism, then our mental health will be better. And, and that sounds so just Yes, I think we as individuals need to figure out how do we navigate and like for myself as an Asian American woman, like, how do we navigate our own, like, cultural identity and location and how we interact in the world. And it's not just up to me, like, I need other people around me to do their part too. And, you know, we have referral coordinators on our staff who work with students to get connected with community based providers and really, really grateful for the work that they do. Because, you know, for students who might experience a lot of barriers accessing care in the community, they have kind of a, an, a network, that it's supporting them in that process. And really thankful for our communities, providers as well, because you know, there's someone out there to meet those needs, and in a different way than we can in our center. And so I think those obviously aren't like big picture systemic things. But I think as an institution, there's institutional policies and processes that we can put in place that kind of chip away at the system. And, and it has to be bigger than one institution, or one office or one person. Who,

Speaker 1

41:54

as you're talking about, like the, you talked about cultural identity, work in the work that you yourself are doing, but then also needing everyone around you to do some summer work. And work wondering if that's connected to this idea of doing our own work. So like, and I'm just as guilty of this of telling my students like, hey, you need to do your own work. But I honestly give them an example of what that looks like. So that's, you know, that's just me confessing my own shortcomings on the podcast, but I don't think I thought of cultural identity work in that work. I, I've always considered it, like, oh, you know, you need to do your own work around your traumas, or you need to do your own mental health work or go to a therapist. But you're talking about a much more personal, almost identity, exploration of who we are, as we move through the world, not just the things that happened to us.

Speaker 2

43:04

Yeah, it's all connected, right? Like, my cultural identity, your cultural identity. All of this feels like like shapes, how we express certain things, how we experienced trauma, you know, Bessel, Vander Kolk has, like done the the Body Keeps the Score, right? We generational trauma lives in our bodies, right. And so, when I think about that, like, yeah, it's all connected. And so doing our own work is definitely about like facing our own trauma or facing our own pathology or dynamics or whatever that might be and that we don't exist in a vacuum, right? We're whole human beings. And so all of these different facets really affect how we are as therapists how we are as individuals, how we are as we move through the world.

Speaker 1

44:08

So third of that, what do you in your experiences and what you're seeing, what do you think is the biggest challenge facing college students right now?

Speaker 2

44:19

Ah, big question. I think there's so much uncertainty in the world. And I don't think college students like are three headed monsters, right? Like they're, they're human beings just like anybody else. And so like, what are the things that like everybody faces

Speaker 2

44:40

you know, my I'm reminded of my Angelo and like, she has like these, these questions that she says that everybody keeps asking every time that you interact with somebody or maybe someone new, um, and the questions are like, do you see me? Do you care that I'm here? Am I enough for you or do you want me to be different in some way? For better In some way, and can I tell that I'm special to find a way that you look at me? And, and I think those like, those are always so meaningful. And I feel like I'm constantly recognizing, like myself asking some of these questions. And, and I see that our students to like, do you see me? Do you can I'm here am I enough? Like, am I special and, and so I think the conflicts around the world, the COVID pandemic, like all of these things kind of show and highlight, like the fractures in our society and in our communities. And it feels so broken is because we're disconnected from each other. And so, and maybe that means also a disconnection from ourselves. And so being able to, to really highlight connection and community as like, like, relationships as, as the keys to healing our world healing our societies healing are our own traumas. Like, that's like, that's the magic. And, and so I don't know if that's necessarily like indicative, all the things that I think that's like, that captures like a lot, in my mind.

Speaker 1

46:29

With all of that, like, what is the future of College Counseling? Where are we headed next?

Speaker 2

46:39

Well, I think a lot of different college counseling centers are trying to figure out like, what is the answer in their local context? And so you have to kind of figure out, like, what is what are the the community based resources on campus and around the campus that are accessible for students? What are the ways that we want students to grow as a result of them being a part of our institutions? And what is the Counseling Center as part in that, for that particular campus? And And so figuring out like, what is the what is the goal? What is the What does education look like in higher education? And so for college counseling centers, I really think the work is about like, kind of addressing what it is that the students have, like their pain points, right, like the those points of connection and so like, we, I think we have to do, like, continue, like in terms of services, like we have to continue to do crisis support, and responding, right. So like, when you're talking about suicide prevention and crisis intervention, students coming in, because they're, they're not doing well, on a particular day, like, those things have to get attended to, and, and create a kind of baseline safety net of support, right. And I think the work of College Counseling has to be about like storytelling and in bringing people into been understanding that it's not just the Counseling Center, that's a part of the solution was supporting mental health on campus, that is that every single person on campus from the president Provost through the faculty, student affairs, advancement, and athletics, like all of these folks have to be integrally understanding the, the part that they play in, in building the community to contributing to the community, no one's outside of it. And so how do you play your part and do your part well, and so there's a lot of like services and models and things that people can do within counseling centers. And really what I think is is vital is like sharing that story and inviting people into like, we're not asking you to be a therapist, we're asking you to be a human and to be a face and to be there to support the students that you're in contact with and and community where

Speaker 1

49:17

there's like, 8 million gems in this conversation. And I just feel really intentional and thoughtful right now about my own impact and how I can help prepare my students to do this work because I think it's so important, but especially really highlighting just what you talked about throughout today of the importance of community and and not just community but really making that connection. And so in one of your your quotes that you said was this disconnection with ourselves might also mean disconnection with others. So, yeah, just super powerful and really thoughtful overall.

Speaker 2

50:09

Thanks. I love talking about all of these things. And I feel like the more that we talk about it, the more you think about it, the more aware we are practicing community, the better off the world will be.

Speaker 1

50:25

So I always like to end with one of my favorite questions that I did not send you because I did not want you to think about it first. Which is great. Here I'll go with it is we do have a large audience of students, so people who are in PhD programs or master's programs, students interested in doing this work and entering mental health and, and getting ready to be clinicians or our internship, just kind of a wide variety of undergrad and grad students. And so what is one thing that you would want them to know, as they are on their journey are embarking on this journey or just interested in doing this work.

Speaker 2

51:15

I want folks to know. I want folks to know where their center is. So how, how are they centering their work and their values and how they see the world. And I tell my staff this fairly regularly about like, you know, make sure that you have firm center and soft edges. Because there's things that we can give up, there's things that we can modify, that doesn't mean that you're, you're, you're shaking your center, you're moving yourself, but making sure you know where your center is, and, and working toward that. And when there's things, setbacks, or problems or conflict or whatever. Like those are things that kind of hit some of the edges maybe and and you can kind of manage and deal with. And when they're things that kind of shake your core or your center. You want to know that too. Because you don't want to get moved unnecessarily, or unproblematically and and throw yourself off track. Oh,

Speaker 1

52:40

it's perfect. Thank you, Dr. Amanda waters for being with us today and having this just awesome, amazing conversation. And thank you everyone for listening today. If you want to follow up again, or touch base with Dr. Waters, I will have her information and all of her contacts, social media, all of those great things in the show notes. So as always, I very much appreciate you taking time to sit with me on the thoughtful counselor. And just learning all of the amazing things we learned today from from Dr. Waters. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 3

53:39

The Thoughtful Counselor is Desa Daniel, Raissa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Tyler, Stacey Diane Arañez Litam, and me, Megan Speciale find us online at the thoughtful counselor calm. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at concept.paloaltou.edu. The views and opinions expressed on The Thoughtful Counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don't necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors, nor of our sponsor, Palo Alto University. So, if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at thethoughtfulcounselor@gmail.com Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.

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