Every building is better in some way than when we inherited it. Hello, and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I
am your host Ryan Willard done today I have the great privilege of conversing with Andy Matthews, the visionary founder, and director of the Andy Matthews studio. So Andy harbors an unyielding dedication to advancing the expertise, service offerings and methodologies of an architect, as he candidly puts it, I really give a shit. Harnessing a blend of pragmatism and technical prowess. And the approach is his craft with an insatiable curiosity and ingenuity enhancing value at every stage of the design journey from the inaugural sketch to troubleshooting on on site complications. So it was really great speaking with Andy, I think one of the things that was very exciting for me was that it's a, you know, the Andy Matthew studios, it's a relatively young practice. They've already in you know, been involved in a number of fantastic residential projects. They've got some beautiful work in the retail sector, working with high end brands, and creating quite experiential environments. An Andy in his career has spearheaded number, a number of different types of projects, encompassing housing, educational infrastructure, retail, refurbishment, galleries, museums, workspaces, so a real kind of breadth of experience that Andy and his team are bringing to the business. And as a young practice, they are implementing a lot of very innovative techniques or business ideas, one of them being the four day working week, which, for some companies has proved to be very successful. And Andy seems to be making it work very well for them for them. We talk about working from home again, other other practices haven't been able to make this work so well, other practices really thrive on it. So I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. But we talk to Andy about how they make it work within their own business, and how they're able to kind of leverage other things such as outsourcing, using freelancers being really up to speed with technology. I mean, this is what I like to see a kind of micro practice that's implementing and, you know, being lean and mean and lightweight, and having a degree of flexibility internally, so that they can keep an efficient machine operating. So this is really fantastic conversation. And the brings a very kind of diligent and thoughtful response to all of the questions here and there's loads and loads of gold. So sit back, relax and enjoy the fantastic Andy Matthews. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures, flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how I might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. Andy, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you? Good, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. Pleasure to have you on the show.
So thanks for having me.
You are the founding director of Andy Matthews studio. You guys have got a beautiful portfolio of work residential a lot. There's a lot of kind of high end retail or kind of artisan boutique types of shops that you've been very stylishly designing and working with some pretty interesting brands. You guys, how long have you guys been in operation for?
I guess we've been going about two and a half years a little bit a little bit outside of that, you know, part time but full time for about two and a half years.
Great. Great. And so you've and you've had a career previously to this, you've worked at Rick Metha architects and pitlane Tosa and, and other places. Yeah, that's
right. Yeah, I feel like I learned my craft there and especially Eric Mather there for nine years and it felt like a bit of an apprenticeship if you like
amazing any any lessons that you learned from other architects in terms of the running a practice or stand out?
So so many, we'd have to have a separate chat about that one but I think yeah, I mean, Rick was a real character a real force for doing things so much so that we we had a lot of Rick isms that he can't repeat them all. But you know, those those lessons like no meeting before 11 What after four and so on So, and you know, allow a B or a gin and tonic from after six and so on. So it was quite a, it was it was a really, really fun place to work at that point in my life as well.
Brilliant. And what was it that had you then set up the ante Matthews studio?
That's a really interesting question, actually, because I never thought I wanted to set up on, you know, practice, really. And I always thought I'd probably work in, in practice with others. And as part of that team, and I think, I mean, there's so many cliches coming here. So do write them all down with your bingo card. I mean, turning 40 was a huge thing, at the pandemic, and to coincide with that working at home. And I think there was a little bit of a kind of, if not, now, then when, you know, it's just, you know, I mean, the pandemic, I mean, we seem to have moved on and forgotten about it, but at its darkest moment, it was, we could all be dead tomorrow. So why not just give it a go? Yeah. So there was and that sounds a bit nihilistic, potentially, but I think, let's give it a go. Probably get another job. If it doesn't work out, let's let's have a go.
Was it something that you that you kind of had clients prepared and ready? was more? Well,
I mean, we had a bit of an overlap, I did speak to my boss, Chamberlain, Gordon, Matt, who's very supportive. And, you know, I said, there's a bit of a three year pathway, and we can start talking to people and ease my way out and so on. But that got that got compressed quite quickly, when we started talking to people and trying to win work. And ultimately, we stopped saying no, so, you know, opportunities have landed, or, or come to us over the years. But we've often said, I'm sorry, I'm too busy with practice, I can't service that. So it was very much about opening oneself to work that was out there. And, and actually just telling anybody who had listened that we were looking for work.
So at the very beginning, you sang a practice in the middle of COVID. Basic, which on the surface of it seems like a crazy idea. But actually, for a lot of architects, there was an enormous amount of residential work. And there was a couple of seconds. Yeah, anything that wasn't hospitality, was actually doing fairly well. What was your sort of strategy at the beginning? Well,
I'd love to say there was a strategy that only strategy was was going to get work. But to answer your question, I guess, most people were thinking about how they exist in their own home environments, if assuming. So that became a very, very core kind of thing that people are thinking about, because they'd all spend so much time there hadn't really so any little problems, or niggles that they, you know, might have just got around with for a while, suddenly became very problematic for them and adapting what they had became such a big, big market, I think, really?
And were you basically, was it just you as an independent? Or did you? You know, have other people involved?
Yeah, so started with a business partner. And we've, we've since moved away from each other. And we both see that as a positive thing. We've employed staff we've grown, we've reduced a little bit. And I guess all those things, we've learned lessons through those through those steps, really. But ultimately, I think, personally, I want to get to a point where somewhere around 10 to 12, people in the studio grow organically. I think talking to the guys at 3144 Architects, they said that they'd grown rather nicely by having one or two people join each year, it was kind of considered growth. Yeah. And I think by the time we get to around about that size, maybe 12 people you've got, hopefully, it's self sustaining. You've got a client base, you've got an office manager, maybe and you know, a few more people at different levels. And it feels a bit more like a grown up organization, potentially.
Yeah. And then there's certainly these kinds of levels as well of like a difficulty with the with the amount of people and then it becomes easier when you've got a kind of magic magic number.
Yeah, yeah. It's management, isn't it? Unfortunately, you know, that used to be I've gone from management to doing and then management again. And it's always very hard as an architect to step away from that doing and, and trusting others to do it. So brilliant.
So one of the innovations that you've employed recently and as it's been from the from the outset of the business, four day workweek,
yeah, I mean, that wasn't actually my idea. I have to credit them James, previous business partner with it, and I'll admit, fully admit I was resistant to it. I can be a bit of a workaholic. I love work, getting things done is what I enjoy. But actually, there's more to life than just work, I think. Breaking news for all architects out there. But it's when we employed our first member of staff Smita, who joined us about 18 months, two years ago now. And we decided that everybody who we employed on a four day week, first two hours, no loss of pay, and we say no so pay with benchmarks against various surveys and so on. And we kind of thought I will always do five days, which is everyone else doing that martyr kind of way of thinking about it, but actually, two weeks in we're like, no, no, no, we're not doing So we're not sitting in the studio on a Friday. That's ridiculous. So, so from the with, you know, we've grown and, and hopefully made a bit of a success of it really fantastic.
And so what what sorts of things that you need to consider in order to be able to have a four day workweek operational? How does it deal with the clients? Everybody takes the same day off? Or?
Yeah, is it? So that's yeah. So we need to, you know, we need to communicate a lot of clarity around it, really. And a lot of the questions I will, you know, shouldn't be spread out, so someone's always in the studio. And my response to that has always been, well, it's always gonna be the wrong person. So you can guarantee it, the person taking the message is the person who's not able to answer that query. So and so we're very clear about it in our messaging, it's on our email signatures in our contracts, and so on. But, you know, we do expect a little bit of flexibility from our staff in terms of, you might have to answer an email on a Friday, I don't want you doing any work, I don't want you going and finding other opportunities to work if our salary should be enough so that you're able to rest. And I think it's, it's really important we do that we rest, go to galleries, look at art culture, and actually have some downtime, go to the post office, whatever it is really come back and work hard and go home again.
So the day is like a complete day off, go off and do something that's nurturing enriching to yourself.
None of my business, but I just Ideally, I'd love that you don't work. You know, it's the ultimate, it's not in my business, but it's the intent behind it is that please rest, recover, spend time walking the dog, your partner, whatever, or it's entirely up to you. It does make a lot of things easier, like going to the post office, taxing the car, all those kinds of things, that dentist, a doctor, all that kind of stuff. And I think it's it's right that we have that extra time to ourselves, so that hopefully we can come back a bit more creative and, and a bit more interviews for another workweek. Amazing.
So I know that you guys are online for becoming a B Corp as well. Working
towards that, yeah, yeah, we've done our first assessment and need to put some things in place to finish that off.
Yeah, sorry. And just just the work from home, I would just the four day work week, kind of tie in nicely with some of the requirements of things that you're being assessed about four.
Unfortunately, it doesn't actually, you know, in terms of values, yes, it's in the right kind of path. But, but there's no actual tick, I think in there, which, which rewards something like that. Are Gina who we're working with? Who's Who's actually brilliant has put that question up to the, to the kind of, like all the be leaders team in the UK. But at present, I don't think there's anything towards it. But you know, in terms of values and our way of working, I think it goes hand in hand.
Yeah. Do you find that having a phone a four day working week means that, you know, those days are much more in the four days you have any office and much more intense? Or you've got to be a lot more carefully curated or planned? How do you get people to still produce the I mean, are people still producing the same levels of work?
We get a lot of stuff done? Yeah, I think we do. To be fair, we don't have anything to benchmark against because we've grown organically into the system. So I would also say I have the utmost respect is anybody's changed an organization into this system. But in terms of our week, it can be quite intense, you know, we try not to work more than eight and a half hours a day. But we do a lot of planning, discussion, communication, to make sure we hit the things that we need to hit that week. And, and the thing that I think about the most is that actually, is that it exposes other things in your business that aren't going very well. And ultimately, it's not the savior, you know, it'll strip very bear that your resourcing isn't done very well, your cash flow is very poor, all those kinds of things, it will show that immediately, because ultimately, it's very easy to use that extra fifth day to cover all of that. And as soon as you remove all of that float, potentially, you've got to be pretty on it to make it work.
So what sorts of automations or tools or processes have you been leveraging to ensure that, you know, all the things that need to get done, get done from your marketing or sales to your kind of financial administration? So
I mean, in previous roles in practice, I've been the IT manager, run systems, all these kind of things. I guess 2009 was another recession, you know, our current downturn is not my first rodeo. So you know, being adaptive and doing those other things has got me a bit of an interest in those so one of the goals we set out when we started the practice was do things properly day one, and, and that involves a lot of quite boring stuff, I guess. So email filing DOCUMENT MANAGEMENT Those kinds of things. Because I don't think anybody should be filling out Excel sheets or doing stuff manually when a computer can do things for you. And we're not as using technologies as far as we should be, but you know, the aspiration is there. So, so we have a full document management system, email filing projects, email addresses, all linked into Microsoft Teams and records and everything there. And it costs us about a grand a year. Right? So it's absolutely nothing, you know, so why shouldn't we do that? Yeah, and the things that timesheets and those kinds of things we need to improve. But we do do it. We look at resourcing and those kinds of things. The next thing is to get into a bit more process based systems in terms of each stage has got a very, very clear outline of what we need to do. But at the same time, there's a balance isn't there between creativity and processing, it don't really want to kill everything through process. And in terms of leads, I've talked many times about the fact that I absolutely love my capsule, CRM, and I track all our business leads to their or our contacts, the contacts are lifeblood of our business. So it's sensible that we track all that and manage that. What kinds
of activities are you doing to generate leads to keep the business fed,
talking to anyone I can, I think there is a bit more structure to it. At one point 70% of our work came through cycling, live or not. The idea that's the new golf is probably fair. But that still happens. And those conversations that come from a bike or weekend away with people still generate work. And I think there's there's a camaraderie that comes from the bicycle, I think there's also a potential easier way of engaging with people. So us being face to face can be quite intense, you notice that I look away occasionally to give myself a bit of a break. But obviously, if you're on a bike, you're sat next to each other, you're not looking at each other, you're you're kind of riding as a pair, it's very easy to have a conversation and, and build that rapport, which then turns into business afterwards.
Right. And you'll find that there's quite a good decent caliber of different industries and professionals that engage in the world of cycling, or it's easy to get trapped with kind of other architects, or that's
a very good point. Yeah, so So writing to cycle to Karen in 2018, you couldn't move the structural engineers, so that's great. But, you know, I want to try and find a few clients in there somewhere, having said that, some of our structural engineers have turned into clients. So you know, I think it's, it's, it's just talked to anyone build build your brand through that, really. But obviously, as we try and grow, we need to be a bit more targeted in terms of pitching to the right people. And I've just been pleasantly surprised that most people will go for a coffee with you and give you 45 minutes at a time. You know, not as a hard sell, but just to catch up. And then maybe 18 months later, there might be another meeting you and you catch up again. So in
terms of the work that you like, and enjoy to pursue the most what are the sectors that are for you the kind of bread and butter work, and then for you the growth sectors where you think if we actually got a really strong foothold here, then this could actually make the you know, it could it could provide a lot more longevity and sustainability for the business. Yeah,
I mean, I think I have a very poor answer to this. And I'm still trying to work out. But ultimately, we're interested in anything, we can solve a problem. And that's not sector based, unfortunately, that's also to do with just being interested in doing lots of things and being creative. However, to answer your question, residential has been very good to us. We've also been a very, very engaged client with our track Smith project, you know, they've absolutely supported our business and helped us grow. But I think in terms of growth, for the business, I think, I'd love to get some workspace work a bit more, we have had a few leads on there. And I think more residential retrofit. But also, when we're talking about workspace, we'd like to improve the envelopes of buildings, as well as doing photography, potentially, so so we've got experience there. And you know, we've just actually had some carbon calcs on a project, a residential project, we've reduced the energy efficiency, so improve the energy efficiency and the bills by 50%. So I think some of those projects that may not be quite as glamorous, but have a really, really meaningful impact are probably a kind of base thing that we would love to keep going with. And it's a big issue in the UK at the moment in terms of EPCs and upgrading existing workspace fabric and whether that's as workspace or as a another functional another use route.
Yeah. In terms of the approaches between going after residential work and commercial work, obviously with more practice. You know, residential work is often the kind of bread and butter stuff First, the lifeblood is also an opportunity to be able to demonstrate design flair and design thinking and thought. And yeah, nowadays, there's lots of platforms to kind of get get published. But then we have the other problem with, with depending on which area of the sector you're working, if you're working with the kind of ultra high net worth individuals, then there's often opportunity for lots of repeat work, it might not be, it might not be the taste of the particular practice, though. The kind of more middle market tends to be great opportunity, but then very difficult in terms of that recurring workflow, or how do you manage that? And then that meant balance it again, we've kind of Yeah, working with more commercial work with other businesses really? Well,
I mean, that they're two very different offers, we have different portfolios, and we pitch those people in very different ways. But we, you know, one common thread is value between there. So I mean, it's, I've you alluded to a residential client, that may be their one and only project they ever do in their life. Yeah, and, you know, that's, that's extraordinarily stressful for them. You know, and can be hugely rewarding as well, obviously, at the end, and when the past and enjoy that space. But I think residential is probably a good component that always should take up some of our work, because you're solving problems for people, you can, you can build experience on smaller projects, for architects running jobs, in traditional contracts, and so on, and seeing the full gamut of things without, let's say, doing a door shedule for a year, you know what I mean? So, very, very broad experience. There's another architect who said that they would come over here it was now, but she said, you know, we always to keep doing loft extensions, because it means a part to student can run a project. But in terms of bidding to other workspace, sorry, the other more commercial things, we, I mean, I've got a portfolio that stretches back over 2025 years. Not all of it appears on our website. But obviously, when we go and meet those people, there's a far bigger range of projects up to about 35, and even 16 million in Oxford. And some of those have played a smaller part on similars, we've run. But then the other thing as well is that when we speak to residential clients, we also say, Well, hold on, we've done all this really big work, and we understand process. And we're quite unique, because we're able to then apply those bigger things to a smaller project. We haven't just grown on those projects. So I guess probably what I'm trying to say is that they are both helpful, and that they can kind of work together,
right, they kind of feed off each other and there's develops inside of the practice, which becomes so
and residential clients can go on to become commercial clients as well.
In terms of growing the practice, and kind of adding these key team members in how have you how has that happened? Has it been like a more more reactive process when there's just been too much work on the decide to hire or, and again, the other thing was that many small practices have the challenge with is that on the surface of it often makes sense, it makes sense to hire a part two, for example, because you can pay them less essentially, right? They're there, they're cheaper, and they can learn etc, etc. And then, but then that the issue for a smaller practice is now you have to spend the practice and have to spend an awful lot of time in training and teaching that person and whilst it's can be very fulfilling, and like a lovely, wonderful thing to do. Yeah, from a business perspective, it can be really precarious.
Yeah, there's a balance in there. And I think we probably have got that wrong, potentially. And I think, obviously, I think when we employed our first member of staff, we should have got someone more experienced, I think that leaping salaries, as you noted is, is is important because it gets you more experience and, and the ability to do more things with less supervision. But, I mean, ultimately, we want to have a role in history where we can support Part One students and, and bring those into the studio. But I think when there's four of us, it's very hard to support that. And I think generally, we would favor more experienced people and paying a bit more for that really, and giving them more autonomy. And then as we grow those other those other levels coming coming through. Yeah, it is it is a challenge. Well, that's
that's interesting, actually, like as a set of a business kind of aspiration is to be able to be a business that supports and nurtures talent from from like, from like, an early age from what's the like, they're like a kind of, like a football team does. Yeah, like people out of park ones and having that relationship, but it's it's quite a long term game and the business needs to be it needs. We need to there needs to be some sort of markers or like performance markers for the business to be able to do that.
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and it's made even harder by doing the 40 we've set ourselves up as a you know, We have to be efficient, we have to make the mining profit to do the nice things we want to do. And, you know, we genuinely do want to support those things. I think it's it's people supported us. But I also don't think you should employ people and then just having somebody sat there doing renders for you sure, because I'd rather pay a person who enjoys that, you know, so if we are going to employ someone that they get around that experience, they get the right experience. But we're in the right place to do that and support them.
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. In terms of someone
if I take a break, sorry, I just need to my eyes are killing me. I just need a drink. So sorry, you're saying in terms of Take, take as many breaks as pause as you want? Thanks. It's really nice conversation. Thank
you. My pleasure. In terms of the kind of being efficient with the four day, one week, and kind of setting yourself aspirations and and goals, I'm imagining as well, that this is actually quite an appealing thing for lots of team members to be working on that kind of have to be working in that kind of that manner. Do you find as well that it helps culturally align with potential clients?
Oh, yeah, that's a good. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's lots of levels in that. I mean, the first point of that is it helps with staff attraction. So you know, you're already elevating your catchment kind of size of people who want to apply to you. And obviously, word gets around if a place is not nice to work for. Obviously, there's there's more than the full day, but we still have to be a pleasant, interesting place to work. And, yeah, I mean, that comes back to our B Corp thing, doesn't it? Really. And I think the thing about B Corp. is it gets you into a bit of a club. Yeah. If we're being really, really honest about it. Yeah. Okay. So you know, all the stuff is great. And it's not actually environmental certification. It's got four or five strands, and you know, lots of business processes we can do. And it's very appealing because it's people planet profit. So run a good business to do with the good stuff. Yeah. But there's five B Corp developers in the UK, I think that gets you an immediate, I'm going to talk to you because, yeah, I've got a project manager, Martin, who we're about to work with. He said he went to an interview and someone gave him sustainability question. They said, Oh, we're big upset. Okay, fine. The CEO just said, Yep, got it. No problem. You got the job. And it's
walking the talk, isn't it with a B Corp? It's no, it's no, I think so. Yeah, no, it's not an easy accreditation to obtain? Yeah,
I think it has a bit of a journey to go. And it needs to evolve, and it needs to improve. And rightly so. But I think that cultural alignment is really important. And we started with a bit of a loose kind of good things for good people talk about that externally anymore. But I think there's a very important point there about working with people who want to work with you. And if they don't want to work with you, there's lots of other architects who do. You know, so friction and projects are hard, don't get me wrong, don't be naive. But ultimately, if somebody really wants to work with you, and you really want to work with them, there's some good buildings to be made as a result of that. Yeah. And, you know, we have a massive part in the process. But clients are the one who offers get good buildings, you know, their support, their tenacity, their drive, and their way forward. And their support, ultimately, is what gets good buildings made really fairly crude way of saying it, but
how do you how do you know when to say no, to a client? What are they? What are their kind of, you know, flags, that you're like? Nope, this is, you know, because I guess, I guess, in one way, one of the, you know, a red flag might be you having the foresight to be able to identify a client where, you know, you know, they're not going to, you know, that the four day working week, just they won't accept it, for example, I mean, of course, a few people, that would be
a suspect. So
you can imagine, sort of crazed?
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's fine, you know, so there may be a little bit of adapting? Well, I don't think so actually, if they weren't supportive of that, I don't think we would be able to work with them. So on some side, you could see that as a very poor business decision. And you've reduced your market incredibly quickly. The other way of looking at it, you've really focused your market and you know who your market is, and you can drill down on that and know exactly who wants to talk to you, you. So whilst I've talked about what we want to do in terms of maybe being a bit of a generalist, who we want to do it with, is we're laser focused on that, and exactly who we want to work with. But these things aren't black and white, and my old boss said to me that day you know, and the all these ethics are great, summarizing slightly, but if you follow the money, it always goes to oil. So where does that go and where are the boundaries and where are the gray zone? So, you know, are we working for an oil Will company but improving? I don't know their cafe for people. Is that acceptable? Where does that sit on the line? So are we doing something in the Far East with a very poor human rights record, but we're doing a school for young women? I don't know. And these these things pretty much are black and white. A friend Sinead Keneally did a really good podcast on that. And I think it's much more eloquent than I can be. I think so. Well, I
mean, it's like a company like BP is, is a B Corp separate certified BP, the petroleum company is a B Corp itself and some other big Yeah. And it's, I think it's, that becomes, you know, there is an internal compass that we have to have with a with individuals, and who we're working with, and also kind of company missions, and then also the industry that a company or person is working in, like, when where do we make judgments around around that? And I think it becomes, it's like this place where it's not black and white. It's
also much, much harder when you could do with a bit of work, you know? Absolutely. You know, so you know, okay, got a bit of a hold on the cash cash flow forecast. It's quite tempting to plug that in with them. So when we don't, you know, don't feel quite as comfortable with so. And it's about holding your nerve, I think as well. So it's very hard, I think, what kind
of conversations do you have with the team about the types of projects that you take on? Is it very much that you you kind of go out and when the work, and everybody's normally very happy with the type of projects that you bring in? Or is there ever a discussion? You know, I'm looking at this project, and kind of ethically, perhaps the team are like, Nope, we're not going to do that. Yeah,
I mean, this did happen recently. And I talked to the team about it. And I said, Yeah, this doesn't feel quite right. I'm not going to be specific about it. You might not agree with my choice. But But actually, I was probably being too hard. And they were saying, Well, this seems okay, because of this, this and this. And the other kind of thing was, well, we could put in a larger fee, and give and make sure we make a profit on it clearly. But you know, give half of that profit to Greenpeace or something. So is that is there a Robin Hood element to that? You know, the cash? Is there. Take it for God's sake? Yeah, maybe? I'm sure I'll get flack for that. You know, but come on, we're quite well decided that I want to get moved ahead. But anything that's a border case or margin, I would definitely ask Thank you. Because, you know, our team have to be happy. Yeah, we all need to get paid. We want to get a salary isn't working, we need to invest the future. But we I think we all need to be able to sleep comfortably at night that we haven't done done something awful. Yeah,
no, absolutely. And I think knowing your own company values, and kind of being clear on clear on those, at least having them expressed in some kind of way, or at least, you know, kind of actively discussed, gives us a little bit of a guiding Northstar, if you like of
Yeah, and making sure they evolve, actually, they're continually reviewed and thought about because it just everything moves so quickly, progress in terms of what's thought was acceptable, or, or language or sustainability or technology, all sorts of it's, it's got to be reviewed, constantly dynamic, I think,
this is another interesting question or kind of area that architects are dealing with at the moment is being able to enroll, you know, influential clients and builders into their role and responsibility in terms of sustainability. And this becomes a, you know, it's, it's still one of these things where we know, it's massively important, there's lots of kind of impending planetary changes that are happening that may be irreversible. But being able to enroll people, you know, clients, on the surface level, people can be very interested in it. But then when it comes down to cry cash, that's often we wanted to pay for that right now. Yeah, that becomes very, very difficult. How do you navigate this? And, you know, how do you kind of sell effectively really sustainability to clients?
I mean, I think a core level or principal level, every building is better in some way than when we when we inherited it. And, you know, a lot of our work is is with existing fabric. So you know, you don't always have to talk about all the insulation you're putting in potentially, but, you know, as an aspiration, yes, we should be doing that. And I think there's a bit of an issue I've talked about with a couple of people is that there's a danger of seeing every building has to be perfect, in terms of sustainability, environmental point of view. And I think it's a bit of a dangerous game, because actually, constant and incremental improvement is probably more effective in terms of what you do. I mean, I think hopefully clients will come to us anyway, because we're doing that but also, we're pitching to the right clients who are more on board with that. But I mean, I did I did go to a seminar the other day I think there's a symmetry as engineers. But But ultimately, we're talking to the enlightened people in the room. Yeah, what's the point? You know, because we, you know, we're all just slapping ourselves in the back thinking this is great, you know, but actually, we're point naught point naught 1% of the people who are developing projects in London. So how does this get to the masses? And is that through policy? So you know, that or, you know, or is it through? Developers wanting to do well, and I think it's a, it's a mixture of policy. But actually, what's really rewarding at the moment is that a lot of this stuff makes financial sense now, you know, because we've had the energy, price shock and those kind of things. And if somebody's going to buy a big office, they will know how much it's gonna cost to run. someone's buying a big 856 bedroom house, how much is going to cost me this winter? You know, so there's, there's very obvious financial considerations, which now are starting to bring this into a much more. Well, I might as well just invest in this.
Yeah. So there's a good strong economic argument that we're able to kind of engage in? Yeah,
I think so. I'm not okay, quite left wing. I'm not always that, well, the market will solve it. But interestingly, it does seem to be that the market can solve it. Maybe if given the right prompts, I think is probably a fair way of describing it.
Yeah. In terms of developing good working relationships with, you know, speaking there about working with engineers? What have been some of your challenges, certainly, as a smaller and a newer practice, developing relationships with other consultants, have you found that you were able to bring a lot of work in relationships from previous employment or previous positions that you held? And more have you kind of had to start afresh? Because it's a different? You're working in different sectors? No, I
mean, we've got some brilliant consultants we work with. I mean, if we take structure engineers, I mean, I've got so many that are amazing. We have to kind of choose which one's right for each job. But sometimes on some of the residential things, people see structure engineering as a binary thing either works, or it doesn't, you know, people that we work with are very creative. We've got a brilliant MEP guy who wants to work at a global organization. And I've worked with him for 15 years, he still helps us on little rabbit Residential Retrofits, you know, like very small fees. And so we've got this huge collection of consultants, which is absolutely brilliant. The bit where we struggled with is finding the contractors. That's the bit that wasn't in our network, actually. And that's taken a bit to kind of grow and kind of come through. But our consultants are brilliant, and we know which ones we want to work with on each job. And, like I say, someone I've actually become clients as well. How
did you kind of resolve the finding? And, and and how do you work with contractors, but this is also very interesting, kind of, particularly in the domestic residential sector, because contractors can be, you know, there's a kind of small outfit, and then there's massive outfits, and then there's not always the kind of stuff do you need in the middle? Yeah,
there's the laissez faire approach. And then it's like, Well, we haven't built it, how we drew it and stuff, but you know, the clients loves them. Or there's the kind of very processed people and everything's an extra. And I think it's, again, like all these things, it comes down to personalities and people that you work with, you know, the good people that you get on with, and, ultimately, we always, sometimes it's like a bit of a view on things that we so, you know, we're not giving stuff away for free, but it's like, okay, we could ask for extras all the time, or whatever. But we're in the business of getting things done. And we want to work with people who get things done with us not cause roadblocks so that along the way. I hope I that's in a collaborative sense. Not in a kind of don't bring any problems. But I You
you working with contractors in a kind of traditional sense, where you're using a traditional contract and you're going through attended a tender process. Yeah.
Quite Yeah, genuine drawings. Yeah, generally through a quite a traditional process, and then manage that through proper contract administration on site. But obviously, experience of DMV previously. And but it's cumbersome, you know, there's a lot of process that needs to happen on small domestic work to make that work. And if somebody does want a full service, it can get quite expensive for them, because there are simply quite a lot to do. But I think the other thing that we we have experimented with a couple of times is is negotiation and you know, finding the right people, ultimately that the materials and are going to cost what they're going to cost. And the only difference then is do get on with them doing the work with them. The overheads and profit and their attitude. Really, that's a very high level way of looking at it.
But when you mean like a kind of negotiated tender where you invite a contract to win very early on there. You're kind of furred and then now. Yeah, sort of pricing from the outset. And it's very much a given that that's there. They're getting the job. Yeah.
And obviously that removes that removes the commercial aspect of, you know, competition. But you know that that can be a successful relationship. Yeah, you have to be quite careful, I think. Yeah. But I think there's also a point of try not to waste too many people's time. And, and obviously, if somebody's very busy, not going to price it very well, or they're going to price it very, very high and forget it, they make a huge profit. But it's, it's, we spend a lot of time reconciling those things and balancing those things out and reporting ultimately risks to our client. Yeah,
I think that's very, that's very interesting. I'm, personally I like the idea of the negotiated tenders. Because you know, when I speak to contractors, the amount of time that that gets wasted on tendering, and it doesn't have the client the best either, because the client may be, you know, they end up going for the lowest tender, and they're going to spend more money anyway, because something's been missed out later on. And,
I mean, they're pricing those jobs over all the other jobs, if something so we're all paying for it. Yeah, that's not, that's not time that just disappears. You know, somebody has to get paid for the an estimate as to get paid to do all that. And it just goes on the overheads of all the other jobs. So let's say they win one in 10. You know, the other nine, so they spent five grand on each, they're all getting spread around the jobs they want. In their business, aren't they? So? Yeah,
yeah, no, absolutely. And of course, you know, there's been no end of stories of contractors trying to ask, you know, offer little kickbacks to architects for, you know, bringing them in work. And honestly, like, there's all sorts of complications that arises with that.
I think, yeah, I think that yeah, and we obviously, never, never take any kickbacks or anything like that. But I think it's difficult because there's a kind of, okay, we've worked with these people successfully before, not recommending them. But you know, this seems like a good project for them. So there's a balance in there isn't they're trying to know the market, which contracts suitable for what kind of work and, and helping your client navigate through that, because clearly, they're not experts in that area.
So as you kind of visualize the future of the Andy Matthys studio and the sorts of projects and the work that you want to go, how do you see the practice growing? And what would be an ideal kind of size for you? And and what are your What are your thoughts about how you're getting there?
Yeah, I mean, I think I think I would avoid growth for the sake of growth, I think. And obviously, everything is driven by projects, I think we're trying to involve others into our organization. So freelancers and things to avoid having to take people on where we might not have the full pipeline to support that. And I'm very conscious of, if you take people on you, then your hands are tied in terms of, you know, obviously, the work needs come in, and, and your choices and your ethical decisions might be somewhat made for you. But I think, you know, one to two people a year is a nice metric. And I think another way of growing, we'd like to explore more we have some conversations, is, is collaborating with others, you know, other practices? So are we getting stuff, some stuff to planning and they take on detailed design or something? Or are we going in with them as a team? And, and I think as a studio environment, we have other people renting desks and so on, I think that's a source of creativity as well and obviously helps help some of the events. But I think it's it's it depends on the direction we take with with some of the work really, but as we said before, I think competent, experienced people who enjoy doing the aspect they're employing them for is the key to our future success.
Brilliant. You mentioned they're working with kind of outsourcing or freelance. How have you kind of what sorts of arrangements have you found successful for you guys?
Yeah, so I mean, architects have a tendency to want to do everything that we see like graphic design and website design and renders and all that kind of stuff. But you know, we're not good at all that stuff. And to keep at the right level, doing all those things is quite quite an investment. So we have a brilliant guy called Gabriel Spira in he's in Spain at the moment who does SketchUp and renders for us and helps us out and he's always available for us. We also work with a renderer in Portugal architecture on paper, right, both incredibly good value always available, always turn out the goods. And you know, we have copywriters, PR people, other people that we plug in, we started using a virtual assistant to help reduce the the admin burden on me. But I think that's a smarter way of growing. Yeah. And I think the the virtual system is a very good idea because that's somebody who enjoys doing and they're happy to tell their time to do that. So like great, celebrate it. I don't want to find all these emails. For a very reasonable rate this person enjoys just sorting those things out for you. So I think try I'd be a bit smarter about those and bringing other people in where we can is another way of doing that. Yeah,
absolutely review them, I think the kind of the ability for a small core team to get a lot done nowadays is way easier than it's ever been before. And being able to leverage, you know, outsource outside talent. And there's all sorts of specialists and plugin consultants and people that can come in, and you just pay for what they use, and they've got their lives and they're happy doing that, and you've got your life and you're happy and, and
everyone's happy. And you know, we're much more okay with working remotely, and different context of continents and time zones. And, you know, we have a mentor, business consultant, and accountants are the usual thing, but they're all focusing on their core competency and doing what they love. So why not?
Brilliant, brilliant, Andy, I think that's a perfect place to conclude the conversation. Thank you very much. I'm very, very excited to hear about the four day work week working successfully in a business. And I do think this is for the right businesses, this is a very powerful tool of just being able to, you know, just give more space, give more space and bring a high level of a higher level of quality thought to the work that doesn't get done and enjoy the time off rather than this kind of Marathon approach that we've had in architecture for so long. That kind of short bursts of intense focus with space, you know, time to rejuvenate, I think is very, very effective.
Excellent. Thanks so much for your time. I really enjoyed talking to you.
My absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks. And that's a wrap. Oh, yeah, one more thing. If you haven't already, head on over to iTunes and leave a review, we'd love to read your name out here on the show. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, the world's leading step by step business training program that's helped more than 103 architecture firm owners structure their existing practice. So the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of their architecture, because you see, it's not your architecture design skills that's holding you back. It's the complexity of running a business, managing projects and people dealing with clients, contractors and money. So if you're ready to simplify the running of your practice, go to business of architecture.com forward slash smart to discover the proven simple and easy to implement smart practice method for running a practice that doesn't get in the way of doing exceptional architecture. The views expressed on the show by my guests do not represent those of the hosts and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you conquer the world. QRP Diem
