Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. Today, we have Jocelyn montamirano with us, and we're going to be talking about overcoming objections and specific things that you could be doing better to help address your clients or your potential students needs ahead of time, and actually be a little proactive in in helping them make their decisions. So anyways, Jocelyn, welcome to the show. So glad to have you here.
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Ellen,
So let's get into this, this concept of objections by I'm actually going to throw an early hot take at you, so if you'll humor me, I am curious how you feel about and this is not my opinion, necessarily, but just, you know, there are people out there who say, Well, I don't believe that objections are meant to be overcome. Like, if someone feels like something isn't the right fit for them, we shouldn't be trying to convince or coerce them otherwise, right? So I'm just curious, in your area of expertise, how would you address a concern like that?
Yeah, so I love that you started off with this, because this is, like, one of the biggest objections that I receive, right? Is like, ooh, like, I don't want to be unethical or come across as like a bro marketer, like I'm just trying to convince you by any means necessary that you know this is a right fit for you. So when it comes to objections, focusing on making sure you are addressing the objections around really why they believe it won't work for them, even though you have evidence to support it works for people just like them.
That's kind of the difference for me, is the like evidence piece, and that you actually have that and not trying to address, like the money objections, where it's like, you know, you shouldn't buy your latte this week and you should buy my program, or, you know, whatever it might be, like, those types of objections that might be really sensitive, but I like focusing on the types of objections that are coming up because your right fit clients or students really want to have a deep alignment with your work and have confidence that there's a high likelihood that they're going to be able to succeed in Your offer.
So as long as you have the evidence to support the claims that you're making, and saying, yes, it's possible for you to make 10k in 30 days. Here's why, here's other people just like you, who started with zero with no audience, or whatever that might be, that's a lot more ethical because you're rooting it and like, I do have proof, and I want you to see that this is possible and not be left kind of in that mentality that like, oh, it's not possible. I'm in a different situation than everybody else and things like that. So really just focusing on what you have evidence to support, rather than trying to convince, which is, I say convincing is when you don't have any evidence and you're just trying to, like, talk around it and convince somebody, yeah, it'll work for you too, but you don't actually have that evidence. So that's my like, big difference there, and keeping it like, quote, unquote ethical, right?
Well, I really like the way that you distinguish that actually, because what I hear you're saying is, if you have the data, like you said, to back up and to help someone maybe see past their own doubts about something right, and to show them a new possibility that is worth taking the time to educate someone about that. In the end, the decision is still theirs, but it's a little different, like you said, than someone who maybe isn't the right fit, and you're trying to convince them they are, or maybe someone who's like, Hey, I don't want to prioritize my resources, whether that's my time or my money this way, and you're saying, No, you should. And so I love the way that you distinguished what makes it ethical and feel good versus not.
I also, I mean, you perfectly, kind of already mentioned these. There's typically three big objections that I've observed over the years, and many people, no matter what type of business you have, it seems to be that I don't have money, I don't have time, or some form of self belief, self doubt, tends to be the big three objections that show up. But you actually, in your interview prep, you mentioned there's actually five. So I'm really curious, like, what are the ones that we're missing? What are the other big objections that maybe people are overlooking?
Yeah, so I categorize one whole category of objections as this won't work for me, and within there there's kind of five subsets. So time, money, priorities like those are still obviously present. But I believe the biggest ones are more like this won't work for me, because if they believed it would work for them, they would find the money, make, the time, you know, all of those things. And it kind of works to support those other objections too. So one of the first kind of this won't work with me objections, and the most common one that I see come up most often is the starting point objection.
And this is where your potential clients feel that they are at a different starting place than your successful clients. So they believe like, oh well, they must have had something different, started at a different point. That's why they were able to get those results, or that's why they were able to get those results in that time period. So that's, like, a really big one that most common, like, everybody's going to have that because everybody thinks that, you know, they're starting from a different place, and somebody else had some competitive advantage, right?
Kind of on a similar note, the second one that comes up is situational. That's where your potential clients believe I'm in a different situation than your successful clients. It's really similar to the starting point one, but it's not necessarily like limited to that starting place. So for example, one of my clients is a career coach, so her potential clients are like, Oh, well, your successful clients that are getting these new roles and salary increases, they're not trying to make a pivot into a new industry or a new type of role. So that would be like an example of a situation where they think like, well, your clients that are getting these roles really fast and things must just be moving up, like, within their own industry, or current type of role, right?
The next one that comes up is resource objection. So this is where your potential clients think, I don't have the same resources as your successful clients. That could also include money, like, I don't have, you know, the budget for ads to get that, like, up and running, or, again, using my client, who's career coach, it might be, I don't have a referral at the types of companies that I'm looking to land a job in. So they think, Well, you know, again, like all these successful clients must have, like, some other resource they're pulling in, you know, whether that's a team member for business owners to help them execute something faster, a bigger budget, or a referral or connections or something like that.
The fourth one is priority based, and this is where, okay, I see I want this offer, but in order for me to be successful in this offer, I have to have this other thing first. So this was one of my objections when I joined an email marketing program. I was like, oh, I want to be really great with email, but my sales page was a mess at the time. And I was like, I need to do my sales page first. And then she started writing emails about like how actually emailing was going to help me with the messaging for my sales page, and examples of her and other clients who were making email sales without a sales page. And I was like, so I never would have thought that, right? Yeah. So that's another, like, huge one that made me realize, oh, I don't need that.
First, I can work on them simultaneously, and that's okay. And then the fifth one is an approach based objection. So this is where they don't think it'll work for them, because they've already tried what you do, and they haven't seen the results that they want, and they're not sure, like, how it's different than what they're currently doing, or what they've tried in the past. So those are the five biggest ones that I believe are kind of, like, really hindering the majority of like, all objections, because those are all those inner fears that potential clients or students have about why they're not going to have success in the offer. And that's like, to me, the biggest reason why somebody doesn't buy.
this is so good. I love that you all lumped it under the umbrella of this won't work for me, and then the way that you broke that out. I don't think I've ever heard anyone break that out so clearly and succinctly. In fact, as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, Oh my gosh, I feel like this would be such a great resource for we host this live challenge, you know, every year for first time course, creators and people often are afraid that, what if people don't buy right this course that I've created or that I'm wanting to create, and I feel like I need to send them to your episode. Listen to what Jocelyn has to say about the breakdown of the different reasons why someone might hesitate.
So you've obviously worked extensively with six and seven figure business owners that are selling these offers, and you've worked on both the Evergreen side as well as launches, and you're probably noticing some pretty consistent patterns in terms of things that people are missing, that are causing their potential clients or students to not buy. So can you share with us some of those key observations you've made over the years?
Yeah, so what I constantly notice is when people are trying to address some of those objections that I just mentioned, or they're highlighting case studies that they think are going to help convert. They're missing the key details that help somebody actually see. Oh, okay, that person was just like me. That person, you know, didn't have a sales page as an example, or that person also made a pivot. What's happening? Is they're trying to address these objections. They're trying to showcase their student or client results in a way that you know will show Hey, this works for all these different types of people, but they're missing those really key details about the context, and without that context, we can't root down into seeing ourselves in those results. So really being like, super hyper specific is like the key thing that's often missing.
And a lot of times, when I would be, you know, doing copy reviews and looking at sales emails or podcast episodes or whatever it might be, I would be like, Hey, do you have any more details about this client? Where did they start? You know, did they have a big audience? Or, you know, were they trying to make a pivot? What was their salary before? What's their salary now? Like, all these really important details, and they would be like, oh, you know, I don't have those details. I'm not sure you know, and it's a lot of people aren't collecting this data about their clients. So then when it comes down to have that evidence that I talked about earlier to, like, truly address the objection. They're missing those key points. And it's like, oh, you've got pieces of it in there, but it's just way, like, there's so many holes in the story. So, you know, it's not converting at the way it should be okay.
That's immensely helpful. So basically, you're saying that typically people are focusing on, like, the flashy end result, right? Like, oh, this person achieved whatever the result or transformation is that you're wanting to sell through your program. But you're saying that these tinier details are what make people actually feel seen or that they could relate to. Like you said the successful clients. Have you ever noticed a situation in which if there's a lot of detail or a lot of context presented to a potential client through a case study, that if the client feels like there's many pieces like more of those nitty gritty details that don't necessarily apply to them, Do you ever find that that can actually be like a turn off for someone, where they go, Oh, I don't exactly match this client's story, so therefore I don't think it'll work for me. Have you ever had a situation come like that, or is that not typically a reaction that you would get?
Yeah, I normally see the opposite, where, even though it's not 100% like I have the exact same details, but I'm closely enough related to where you know whatever those key pieces were, that it makes me realize, okay, for example, if I'm talking about, like, email marketing, right, joining an email program, I have a small list. Does somebody need to have the same exact list size as me? No. But if it's kind of within the realm. And I'm like, okay, maybe they have 50 more than me, you know, or 100 more. That's still kind of, it's not 1000s or anything like that. Okay, this person, you know, they had a sales page, but they were talking about how bad it was, you know, that would make me feel a lot confident, and being like, okay, you know, I can see myself in them and relate to that a lot more.
And know, okay, you know, these people don't have all these things that I thought they did, sure, maybe the most successful, the best results possibly check a few more boxes. But there's still people that are more like me, more at my level, have similar qualities to me, that are seeing results that they're clearly excited about, to, you know, give case study or testimonial type feedback. So that creates a lot of that alignment and helps to repel the people. To your point too, of like, if you're not matching with those qualities, there's not yet evidence that that can support you.
That's a great point. Actually, I didn't think about the opposite fact, like the filtering out piece earlier, you mentioned that sometimes, for example, like the one of the five, this won't work for me. Branches, right? That you mentioned is, oh, I'm not in the same starting place. How do you help your clients when, let's say they do get an objection from someone that's like, I don't see a similar let's say starting point in any of your successful clients as what I am currently facing. And let's say that client at that moment doesn't have evidence yet from a student exactly like them. What advice would you give to someone in that situation to help the person on the other end who's experiencing those doubts, if you don't yet have the exact evidence to support it.
Yeah, so that, to me, comes down to, like, full transparency on what challenges that person might run into without, you know, being at the same starting point as the majority of their clients highlighting, you know, these are the potential challenges you might run into. These results were happening for people with x, and that's why it was happening in that time frame. It might take you longer to get there. So really just being transparent and setting that expectation and then giving them that power to make that informed decision.
Okay, I recognize where I might run into. More challenges, more obstacles, or, you know, where it might take me longer those types of things, and now I can decide for myself. You know, even with this information, I still want to enroll, and then hopefully they become, you know, that success story for that starting point. And if not, that's okay, because now you're not addressing the wrong types of objections and saying, Oh yeah, trust me, trust me, it'll work, and not truly having the evidence to support that.
I love that, especially the piece that you mentioned, for example, like adjusting expectations around timeline for said result, right? Like maybe normally it's three months, and you say, actually it might look more like nine months in your particular situation. I really like that approach. That was super helpful. What else do you feel like is missing from people's utilization of client results? I know a lot of times on sales pages, especially it shows up as screenshots, right? I mean, I'm guilty of this. I have tons of screenshots everywhere of people who have sent affirming messages, or, you know, happy clients who shared the results that they've gotten. But you you have a strong stance that just showing that even in their own words, maybe isn't enough. What else could people be doing to enhance the impact of those visual pieces of evidence?
Yeah, yeah. So I kind of have the take that screenshots can be a little manipulative, especially for B2B, where you are potentially including things like, I got a 10k sale, you know, in 24 hours, and there's no other context around it. I think a little bit looser, more testimonial vibes of that coaching call was so helpful to me, or things like that is, is totally fine. But if you're gonna have a screenshot where you have somebody sharing something like, you know, I got 10k in 24 hours, you really need to have the full context around that screenshot to root it into again. Like, okay, here's Jane. She joined when she had an audience of, you know, 10,000 people, and her offer was x, and it was priced at this point, you know. And we did a 24 hour campaign where she did XYZ, and she was able to generate 10k that's a lot more rooted, if I see, okay, well, she had a big audience. She had an offer.
You know, those types of details that give me the context of the story around not just the result of 10k in 24 hours, but the who got that result. That's the missing piece. Is like, just having results is really great at providing, like, a hint of social proof. Okay, this offer is good. People are getting results like, clearly, but the WHO that story, that's what actually converts, because now people can see, okay, I understand the types of people inside of this offer getting results and I'm just like them, or I'm not like them, and I'm not going to convert. And that's okay, right?
So that's like, the big piece is, really, if you're going to use screenshots, like providing the context around that, and even if it's not a screenshot, but same thing, like being very cautious around like headlines that just say Jane made 10k, and 24 hours, or whatever it might be, and really providing, what did that person have in place? What was their starting point, their situation, their resources, all of those components that made that result possible for them.
Well, you're really speaking my love language as someone who, you know, I mean, from listening to our podcast and being part of our community for a number of years, I love context. Context is key, I think, when implementing advice or trying to understand, you know, where you fit into something. And so I love that you're reiterating that point several times for case studies in particular and providing this extra this extra context. Do you have a particular framework or structure that you advise people use when conducting interviews with their successful students and clients to ensure that these important details aren't lost in you know, between the interview and what shows up for the person reading it on the screen.
Yeah, so it all starts long before the interview. So typically, what I would do with my clients inside of the case study sprint is we have three types of forms that we use to collect client data from the moment they join all the way through the moment they achieve that offer, promise, that offer, goal, whatever you might call it. So the onboarding form, progress form, and then the final case study form. Those forms are ideally reverse engineered with that objection data in mind.
So you're thinking of the objections, and then you're thinking, what data do I need to collect from my client throughout their journey to then be able to have the story that I would love to tell, which is like so and so with a small email list, was able to make sales, right? You have to reverse engineer from the starting point of the objection. Case so that you have that data that you're collecting throughout their journey. Then when you actually identify, Okay, here's a client that has a beautiful result. I want to invite them to a case study. Before you ever get on an interview with them, you are actually mapping out the story you want to tell.
So what I typically recommend my clients look at what was the biggest problem that they were facing, what was the end result that they got, especially if it's something too that might be different or a little bit more unique than everybody, and then what objections does this client's story overcome? And then, based on that, then you're really tailoring the interview and making sure, okay, if I want to address the objection of, you know, small email list, you know, can't make that much money with email if you don't have 10,000 subscribers, if I want to address that objection, I have to make sure I'm asking questions specifically about, what was your email list? Size, how much sales were you able to make with your email size that big you know, to have that context.
So it's really all about reverse engineering. Starting thinking about the stories you want to be able to tell, the objections you want to address with that evidence, and then reverse engineering your whole strategy to make that happen.
I love that my brain works in analogy. So when I hear you describe this process, it's like, it's almost like you're an animator, or, like, a film writer or director, and you're like, storyboarding the plot, right? And you have to, like, be aware of where could potential plot holes happen, or, like, what does the I guess, like, the audience need to know at a certain point in the narrative. So that's incredibly helpful, especially, I think what you said about identifying the objections that you want addressed first and then, kind of like, like you said, going through your pool of potential clients that you could interview and seeing whose story or whose evidence best supports that case. So that was really, really helpful. I appreciate you walking us through that process. You also focus on three elements in specific that really ensure that these case studies convert more right fit clients. So can you share what those three elements are?
Yeah. So the first one is that collecting of the right data. So like I mentioned, you want to have the onboarding form, the progress form and the case study form, and really thinking about, Okay, what data do I need to be collecting about my objection so that either immediately or down the road, when I get a client to, you know, enroll in this offer, I have all the data that I need To be able to tell that full picture story. And you want to make sure, too, you have a little bit of a strategy or a system set up to make sure people are actually submitting those to you, because it means nothing if they're like, you know, I always see, like, an end of Module check in, and I'm like, is anybody doing that? I know, I've skipped over a lot, so having, like, a little bit of a strategy in place to make sure that there's a culture around people submitting this information to you.
Can I interrupt real quick to ask you what? What is like? One of the most effective ways you've seen people develop that type of culture or that accountability for people to follow through on filling out said forms?
Yeah, so number one is just setting expectations and making it really easy for people. That's like just groundwork. If you do that, that actually does a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of getting people to fill it out. So making sure that it's in your course portal, or it's in your Slack community, or your circle community, or wherever it might be, that you have your program community and things like that. If you send monthly emails or weekly emails to your clients, like it's in there, reminding them to do it. Also having an incentive is a really, really nice idea, and that incentive can be something that's incredibly passive, like unlocking bonus lessons once they, you know, reach a certain result, or something like that.
If you have something that's very like milestone specific, you can have things unlock based on their milestones. Or if you have, like, a more high touch mastermind one on one offer, you might be able to do something like provide one on one private feedback based on what they're sharing in their progress forms and things like that. So that's kind of definitely something you want to think about, is like, How can I also make it a win win for them, while also making it, like, super easy for them as well
Super smart as someone who is very incentivized by prices, prizes and gamified, you know, experiences. I can totally see why that works. I also wanted to ask you, this was something that I noticed so you have a free training, right? And it's called three elements of high converting case studies that overcome every objection and turn more right fit lurkers in your audience into best fit clients or students and lurkers is actually. The word that stuck out to me, and I was thinking about this concept of lurkers, and we, I'm we all have lurkers in our community, and many of them, like you said, are probably the right fit clients that have just not made themselves known.
I'm curious, how do you get these lurkers to actually make themselves known, to self identify, like, Hey, I actually might be a good fit for because, to your point, even if you have the best content objection overcoming content, if the person doesn't make themselves known to you, it's a little bit harder to have that conversation, right? So do you have any thoughts on that and or do you have any more advanced ways to identify lurkers in your community in a more proactive way.
Yeah, so this one's kind of tricky, because when they're a lurker, especially if they're lurking because they really like what you do, they're aligned with you know, your offer, they like your approach. They get a ton of value out of everything you share. But they're lurking because they don't feel like they're a right fit. They think this isn't for me yet right now, because of X, Y and Z, it's hard because a lot of times those people won't voice that objection to you, whereas other types of objections someone might bring to you. Hey, I'm thinking about signing up for this, but I just wanted to check, like, what day of the week, or the coaching calls or something like that, like people might be more prone to reaching out because they're identifying I am a right fit. I'm heavily considering this. I just want to check off a few quick questions. I have to make sure it's all good.
But when it's those people that are lurking and they don't believe that they're a right fit right now, they typically aren't going to bring that to you, because they feel like, well, I'm not a right fit, so I don't want to waste their time. So that's kind of why I created that framework around the five different types of this won't work for me objections, because we really do have to become a little bit of a detective and start being like, there's probably 200 different objections underneath that umbrella. But if we can at least start identifying some of the bigger, more obvious ones, and start addressing that, start showcasing client results and stories around that, that's going to naturally shake some of those lurkers out of lurking and into taking some more action, because they're going to see themselves.
And so one of the elements of my approach is really making sure your client data and client results and stories are weaved into all of your marketing and not just left on your sales page. And that's the other thing that can really help is like, Okay, once you do, like, have this objection, busting content and results and things like that, like, don't leave it to your sales page and just your sales sequence, because somebody may not even be opting in for your list, your launch event, paying attention to things because they think they're not a right fit. And that has definitely happened to me, where I was like, Oh, that offer seems great, but I don't think I'm a right fit. And then all of a sudden they had one client story pull me in, and I converted within like, four days, and like, it was just the fact that I didn't even realize, because all of their client results for like a year were only on their sales page, and I wasn't even clicking over to it, right?
So make sure you're weaving those highly contextualized client stories and results into all of your marketing, and not just, you know, the sales page, the sales sequence, but you want to make sure you're attracting people and getting people to even pay attention to your offer.
That is such, such a great reminder. I feel like we all could use that reminder, myself included. So thank you. Thank you for taking time to extra emphasize that, I want to end this by having you share a little bit more about your case study sprint, and I believe you have an extra bonus for our cubicle to CEO listeners. So if you'd like to share that too, I'm sure they'd be super grateful.
Yeah. So if you would like support with your case study strategy and interviews and really creating case study content that is highly contextualized, positioned to overcome objections. I would love to support you inside of the case study sprint. It's a six month one on one kind of coach, salting offer, where I'm going to actually do part of your case study strategy for you. I'm going to create all of your forms, create your interview questions for you so you know the overall structure, the key messaging points that you need to be hitting on in those interviews, and how to personalize it for each of your clients. And then I'm also going to be there to support you in terms of taking all of those interviews and also all your client data that you collect in the form and turning that into case study type content.
So creating that objection content, case study spotlights, updating your sales page with all that info. I'll be there to support you every step of the way with coaching and content reviews and things like that. And for just for the Cubicle to CEO listeners, special bonus, I will also add in a special one on one position for profit interview session. So what we'll do is, after you collect some client data, we'll identify your first or next three case study interviews based on what objections we want to overcome and which story is going to be the best to do that, and then I will guide you through specifically how to personalize it for that unique client.
So you're making sure you are telling that really specific, high converting story, not missing any of the details that are needed to convert, and making sure that that full picture is there. And you're putting your best foot forward to make sure it's as strategic as possible for both you and your client who is dying to support you for all the support you gave them
That is so, so powerful. Thank you for giving that extra bonus to our listeners. I know that that highly individualized review and feedback is crucial sometimes to just one tiny tweak that can make all the difference in the effectiveness of messaging or copy or how you position something. So thank you for making that gift available. Where can our listeners go to claim this bonus and and connect with you further?
Yeah, so you can go to scaleyourresonance.com/case-study-sprint. To find the page where you can apply, and you can just simply mention Ellen Yin or a Cubicle to CEO on the application, and you will redeem that free bonus for you there and then, yeah, I would love to connect with anybody I am on Instagram @scaleyourresonance and threads now too
Well, you know, I heard threads is actually offering a pretty awesome bonus for you to create content on threads. So I'm like, Hmm, I might have to speaking of lurking, I'm like, I might have to out of my Lurker shadows and get commenting on there again. So anyways, Jocelyn, thank you so much for joining us. All of the links mentioned will be in the show notes below, and make sure you go check that out. Send a DM, connecting with Jocelyn and thank you so so much for sharing your wisdom with us today.
Yeah, thanks, Ellen.
Hey, we forgot to mention this in the live recording. So I just wanted to pop in and make sure that you guys knew about this. The free training that I referenced three elements of high converting case studies that overcome every objection and turn more right fit lurkers in your audience into best fit clients or students. That's a free training that Jocelyn wants to make available to you all as well. So if you would like to watch that training on your own time, you can go to scaleyourresonance.com/ellenyin. Again, That's scaleyourresonance.com/ellenyin. Also make sure to drop it in the show notes with all of the other clickable links. So make sure you check that out. I think we all can utilize case studies and client testimonials better in our businesses, and this training is going to be absolutely a game changer for that you.
