[130] Meditation and the Path of Transformation: Discussing Maha Mudra and the Four Special Preliminaries – with Jeffrey Stevens

1:04AM Oct 3, 2023

Speakers:

Jeffrey Stevens

Audience Member

Keywords:

samsara

meditation

maha mudra

path

condition

practice

mind

instructions

thought

teacher

people

work

life

conceptual

object

awareness

called

experience

clinging

happen

Oh yes, I'm recording I'm gonna move my computer it always looks like I'm doing something over the side. But that's just because I somehow don't want a bunch of this in my face. Hi, everybody. How are you all grade your Oh, I'm just going to assume that everyone's well. I think it's best to assume that I've been having a little bit of a struggle with all these update. Alyssa assures me that my audio is okay. Can you all okay, all right. I'm okay, that's it. Hey, it looks like the Fonz. Like it just a bunch of Fonzie. Is there everybody with me? No. Well, it's fall here. I don't know about where you are. But we went from sunny days to cloudy days and leaves are on the ground. This is a fun time to sit outside because it's not too hot and it's not too cold and the leaf blower and happened just yet. How many people and this would just be another some indication with your hand? How many people got an email that I sent out today announcing the topic? Okay, all right. Good. Looks like that one out. So tonight, sort of like last time. I'm going to lead a meditation what there are guidelines within the act of meditation itself or there are things that one can put in place that really are important if if our intention to meditate transform res our profound nature to see through. Sell for see through illusion. If it's to prepare for the Bardo. Those are all high stakes results, which would mean that our practices we're trying to make it meaningful we're not just willing to do the least amount possible and expect it to do something Thus, you know, not that we would be that way. Because meditation is still new enough in our world. There can be a little bit of an assumption that we can do it on our own terms. Because we can do most things on our own terms. And so there are these various systems of how to make sure that your that your practice is actually meditation practice rather than seeming like meditation practice. And the system that I'm most comfortable within and the system that I learned I was trained to be a teacher within a system that just seems so useful and so easy to understand, and yet delivers such deep reward is the system of Maha Mudra. Maha Mudra is really old. And it's been practiced virtually the same way. In every generation since we really first hear about it, which is maybe like the seventh centuries of it is old stuff. And it really works and Mahamudra can be practiced in a very simple way. Then in a somewhat esoteric way with mantras and visualizations, and then in a very esoteric way where you're working with the channels and the winds and then it can be practiced, just as a direct sharing of wisdom mind with a teacher. And those are just those are just some of the ways Mahamudra is taught. The first one that I mentioned the very simple way. That's really that's the way for us, I think. I think most of us come to this type of meditation. When we're in the middle or beyond the middle of our life. Where are we? We're not trying to optimize our physical body to have a better physical life experience. We're not focused on the external look of our life. We may have already done enough of that or maybe we never were really bothered by that enough to, to work towards those ends. But when we come to something like Maha Mudra, it is to go in and discover the deepest part of ourselves. And that's what Maha Mudra is for. And it doesn't really do anything else. Maha Mudra is one of those teachings that doesn't really have a wellness dimension. What I mean by that is, medicine is presented as being very good for people who just want to calm down and heal, if that's what they want to do, then they could just do that. And if they want to go deeper than that they can and that's great. If a meditation path, is that flexible, then that would be a good thing. I don't know that. I don't know that they are actually that flexible. What I do know is that all of the meditation instructions that have come down that I've been exposed to, which are almost always from the Buddhist tradition, sometimes from Hindu traditions, really don't make any reference to using meditation to solve worldly problems or make your life better. As a byproduct. They may, but because meditation sets in motion, a path that directly faces our karmic situation. We don't know what's gonna happen. It's like when you if you try to clean up your neighborhood, if you try to get the neighborhood tops in order, you hope that they'll just back down and say okay, and then the neighborhood will be returned to peace, but you may have a little bit of rough going before that. And I think it's important that we know that when we start deep and transformative meditation practice that we are inviting karma to come forward that may not have come forward as quickly but we we have the tools at that point to meet it as it arises. And teachers wouldn't give us powerful instructions. If the instructions were not powerful enough to meet whatever Karma comes our way. But then it's on us to make sure that we are handling those powerful instructions properly. So that's where these guidelines come in. So I have been going through this is always cruel to do this, but you hold up a book like this and everybody wants one and this isn't one that you can get as far as I unless you already have it. This is a book that you have to go through a bunch of rigmarole to get it's a Maha Mudra the ocean of definitive meaning. It's not you don't need to get this you can get one of the other books, the moonbeams of Maha Mudra is almost identical to this and that is publicly available. But because this is what my teachers gave me to study, I study it. And there's a part within the beginning the preparation which outlines the particular things that have to be in place for your being to enter into the transformative potential of meditation. And they're very clear and although they're kind of presented as a part of an advanced preparation for meditation, they really aren't. They really are what, what's the difference between a meditator like ourselves who is sitting down to meditate and not having a transformative experience, and one who is sitting down to meditate and is having a transformative experience? Is there something we can pinpoint that we could work on so that we can give ourselves a chance? And the Mahamudra edition would say, yeah, they're called the four special preliminaries. And the four special preliminaries is just the, the old, Indian and Buddhist way of doing things. They're really they're really academic sounding categories, but when you unpack what they are, they're actually really folksy. And that's what we're going to talk about right now. So I'm gonna talk about that a little bit right now and then we'll meditate. And if you have questions that come up, please either put them in the chat or remember to ask them and I see there's Oh, okay.

So we have what are called the causal conditions, the empowering conditions, the object conditions and the proximate condition. And those four have to be in place. At the moment we enter into the transformative dimension of meditation. Without those four conditions, which all come together in a moment. They can all come together in a moment, we're not talking about taking time off from work so that we can put each one in place. That gradual approach also has. There's a there's an approach that does that too, but we're not talking about that we're talking about something immediate. When all these come together, we can enter into the practice which allows awareness and prajna to come forward and begin to transform our outlook. Without those four conditions, or with three of those four or two of those four are only one of those four, we can still meditate and we still should meditate. Meditation still very good for us. But what we're doing is we're approaching the point where meditation can become transformative. So where can meditation become transformative? Essentially when we are able to move into clear, thought free now notice, when we are able to enter into the uncomplicated non grasping state of clear awareness. That is the beginning. That's the best place to be to begin the path. But it's also the place to be to begin the path. So all of our training really is helping us arrive at this clear, thought free now notice an unintended gold, clarity, a way of being that is awake and is not pulled into complications. And cannot be pulled in to complications that might sound like a transformed state already, but really the beginning of transformation. So these are called the special preparation for meditation because they take someone who is well prepared and they put them right on the seat of transformation. So in the beginning, we have this first condition which is called the causal condition. The causal condition means very simply, that whereas we used to think that samsara the the karmic world, of self and other of life and death of the opposites the world that the Buddha described as suffering, we used to think that you know, if things if you know, if you have a good enough situation, samsara really can be a nice place to be, the world is a really nice place to be, you know, you can maybe go to the coast or maybe you can go hiking in the woods, or maybe you can, you know, go to a bar mitzvah or something where everyone's being really kind and generous. And you can say to yourself, you know, this really isn't so bad. This is nice. Sometimes it's really nice, and it is sometimes it really is very nice. But when you've been in it long enough, you might see areas of it, which you didn't understand were part of this territory. And just the presence of those areas makes you realize this isn't a nice place to be. There might be rooms that haven't caught on fire yet in a house that's burning. They might still be pleasant, they have plants there's lemonade on the table. But if the rest of the house is burning, that's not such a nice place to be up until you see the condition of the house. You might have thought no, no, no, no, this is a really nice place to be. I know that it's hot upstairs, but this is well once you've seen enough, you release you're planning to continue in that way. That moment, that called Kuhn long in Tibetan and it means definitive emergence. Definitive emergence means you see the danger and you definitely get out of there. And an example of that is if a bush catches on fire, like a lightning bolt comes down. Any animals that were in that bush, as soon as they have a sense of what has gone on, they don't hesitate. They don't wander, they don't try to make the best of it. They get out. They get out. We've all had situations of definitive emergence or getting out of there before I mean, it happens in our life, you know? Someone yells fire in a crowded theater. You just get out you don't. You don't figure out where that's not your job. Well, there comes a point on our path. Well, there comes a point maybe in our life, not for everyone but for people who pursue meditation at this level, where you've seen there are dark things here. And if you're going to try and have the good things, then you're also going to have to live with the dark things. And something within you says just don't. And so you release, you release clinging. This is called in the in the Tibetan teachings. Sometimes it's called revolting towards samsara. Shedlock is the Tibetan term. It's also translated as you have developed a sense of reform, reform, you're no longer you're no longer clinging to have more and more life because you know, what's going to happen, you know, where that leads, you know, that it might lead you to the strawberry fields in to the difficult regions. With that sense of reform, that's the first condition with that sense of reform, you know, not to clean. You don't want any more of that. But that's as much as you know. You don't know what to do instead. So this is often where people encounter the path. They've had that sense of, oh, I meet people like this quite a lot. You know, I have younger students, people in their son even in their 20s, which these days seems pretty young. Back when I was starting, there were quite a few of us in our 20s But times are different. There was no internet, I don't know. But people in their 30s are starting and they they have a lot of interest. And they have a lot of energy, but they do not have a sense of reform. And I guess I could have guessed that but I now I know it work with so many of them and that's not a prop that's not a shortcoming in them. It's just a stage of life. They will live long enough and if they're already interested at some point, they'll feel like okay, I'm really not sure that life is going to work out the way I wanted it to my conditions aren't being met and so forth. But when people come to the Dharma, in midlife and after they have this sense of reform to some extent, to some extent, I suppose I've called this in the past, they feel the call. They know that there's something deeper here and they already know that there's nothing deep on offer. In just the ordinary venues of reward like crypto and I'm very sorry if that hit the wrong way.

So we go from this first condition, to needing to know what to do, what do we do? What do we do? If we generate our own ideas of what to do? We can sort of look at those and think, aren't you just the same thing? That's been telling me what to do all along. And at the point where we're willing even to accuse ourselves of trying to lead us back into samsara, we start looking around for for help. This is where we enter into what's called the empowering condition. So we have the sense of releasing from samsara and then we look around for instructions, and we find either the teacher or the teachings, or if we're extraordinary and this usually doesn't happen first. This usually happens a little ways down. We connect to our own inner wisdom, and it guides us but that, you know, if that happens, it happens. That's wonderful, but it's easy way to get into confusion. So we find a teacher, someone who can help us someone who has a path to give. No one can pull us out of samsara. No one has the power to reach in and pull us out of samsara. That's, that's not a thing. But teachers have the capacity to share their knowledge of the path. You can even find someone who has never really walked the path but they've studied the path so well that they can hand you the instructions. I mean, that's not ideal, but the instructions are so valuable, and they're accurate, that even those can be a ladder to climb out of samsara. Much better though, to find I mean, the ideal would be you find someone who's completely transformed. The next best is someone who's on the path to transformation and knows, knows the ins and outs. The third best would be someone who has been trained to understand the path even though they might not have done it themselves. And maybe the fourth would just be someone who has all the right books and they just say here you can just take a look at some of the books I have. All of those would be a way for us to find guidance, but guidance is the key. Because once we've let go and realize samsara is not a good place to be, we need help. When we get that help, now we have the empowering condition. Once we have help, and this is kind of where the work sets in. We have to come to terms with what is this help telling us to do? Is it telling us to believe something else? Is it giving us new ideas, new arguments, a new dogma, a new set of concepts? Hopefully not? Well, if we're really handed real help, the real help will lead us to sort of the end of the conceptual mind either all at once. Some traditions are very brief, they take you right to the end of the conceptual mind. Others are there's they're more steps like the path of analytical meditation, majolica things like that. They're all of a piece but some of them have us work through our our misconceptions about reality, our philosophical problems that we may or may not know, we have. And we we refine our intelligence until we come to the point where we realize that concepts are not going to help us. Or like I said, we just go into a tradition Maha Mudra is often this way where it's like, let go of concepts. Just relax to the very edge of the mind. And when we can do that, that's called the focal condition. We are now at the point where the door can open. And what is that? What is that door open? Well, it means that we've come to the conclusion that thinking our way to a solution won't give us a solution. And that the Dharma, the teacher, the teachings and so forth. Were never offering ideas as a solution. They were offering a way out of the realm of ideas into the realm of direct experience. And when we come to see that that is the very end that's called the object condition. Wow, these are different depending on what translation I think I just call it the focal condition, the object condition, it's the third let's just it's the third. We let go of samsara, we find instruction. We understand what instruction is and isn't and we come to the conclusion that instruction is coming out of the mind not refining the mind endlessly. And at that point, turn to this peculiar thing, which is called the proximate condition or the immediately preceding condition this What a weird name that is we we don't have to worry about it. But what it means is, we arrive at the place where all transformation can begin. We arrive at a state of mind that's free from clinging, has been instructed and how to how to proceed. And has come to the conclusion that concept and idea ideas are not going to be the answer. And so it tips over into clear thought free awareness. And that's the beginning. That's the platform out of which the arising of wisdom or innate recognition of the nature of reality can come. That clear thought free noun us isn't freedom from suffering, but it sure is. It's the thing that happens before that happens. And I think you could say they lay down a pretty good case than any realized person anywhere following any system only became realized, based on this. Now, that doesn't mean that they had to go through and find a Buddhist teacher. Of course, it does not mean that but it means that they let go of clinging, they gained some kind of direction, and they came to the conclusion that concept would never free them. So they released even from that. And then they found themselves resting and clear thought free now on us. And at some point by continuing on and that way they gave birth to wisdom. That's how it happens. Now, just by way of summarizing this in language that I think we've probably all heard, this is very similar to what you may have heard of, as the three prajna is hearing contemplating and meditating when we know that life is is going to get like maybe the good times are behind us for all we know. We went to our last good time this weekend. Maybe we have a sense that it's just gonna get maybe we have a cough or maybe, you know we have a pain and we're like, ah, you know, it's, I can see life is getting ready to really rear that other head. Well, at that point. That's when people hear the Dharma for the first time. So they let go of samsara. And they start to take in the teachings. Then they contemplate the teachings that they've taken in trying to make sense of them. And those teachings yield a conviction in how things are and when that conviction dawns. They settle their experience into that they rest in the meaning and that's called meditating, hearing, contemplating and meditating. They're preceded by letting go of samsara and I think it's the same thing. I think it's the same thing. One is more philosophical sounding, and one is a little more you know, getting your lifting up the hood and getting your hands dirty in it, but I think that the same thing, and that, that should tell us something how important this is. If we haven't let go of trying to find freedom through worldly decisions, then it's going to be hard for us to put any of the Dharma in place. That's not to say that we're bad people. If we're doing that. It's not a judgment call. It's just doing that. Like still trying to optimize your physical fitness as the answer. We should all be healthy of course, but optimizing spending four or five hours in the gym every day, and I know people who do that

there's really no history of that leading to wisdom. I mean, it leads to other things. And maybe you get some rewards by doing that, but what rewards don't you get? So, once we get to the point where we understand that pursuing solutions through creating more karma isn't going to raise us out of karma. We're ready to start meditating. Then starting to meditate, what are we doing? Do we have instructions? Do we have instruct a set of instructions that are pointing us in that final direction? Or have we just collected a bunch of things that we think that they're all instructions, we'll probably never have time to practice them all, but we feel somehow rich, and so well endowed? Because we have all these collections of instructions from various people. That's a danger zone. And that's what this is saying. That is a danger zone. You don't you don't cross the ocean by collecting boats. You get in a boat and CO crossed the ocean. And you just want one boat. Just want one boat. So we want to make sure that we have a system. Then we use that system and we try and really understand what the essence of it is. Is it that I become I have the stablest mind in the world and I begin to glow? No, it's not. That's a sidetrack and we resolve that in the third. In this third condition. We resolve that no none of those conceptual things are it and then we discover it means opening into clear thought free awareness now in us that is when we are headed, right? Toward awakening. So let's do a little practice on this. And I guess what I would ask is let's just settle in our in meditation, whatever way we do and then I'm going to do what I do. I will make a suggestion so that you can do something. I find this stuff to be this is really what steers the ship in my life. And just doing one session might not have that result. But this is like a tune up a tune up that we can do from time to time to make sure that we're serious. Do we really mean this? Because if we do, we should get checkboxes on all four of these conditions. But first, let's just settle will take a minute or two and just settle

So the way to begin. This. This little checklist that can be so helpful in making sure that we're on an awakening path is we start out by asking what are we holding to anything are we clinging to anything?

Is our life involved in manipulating things? So that we have more of what we want as a vision of happiness, not as a way to survive, we all have to survive. So making a little more money having better health. Having what we need, that's not going to hold us back but Are we pursuing our dreams? Are those the most important thing? What are we clinging to? What would be painful to let go of if the Bush were burning?

At an outer level this could be the painting we haven't finished.

It could be

the job that we hope to get could be the outcome and a political party we're working for. Have these become more important than waking up?

At an inner level what do we hold tightly to?

Is there a bank of memory? That is more precious to us even then now notice.

Is there a bank of ambition that makes us push down us away for a later date? So we can pursue the ends of our ambition

and whatever comes up try to let go of it. Drop it. See what happens. You're already a meditator. you probably are willing to do that

if there's something that you can't drop, pay attention.

At least know that

maybe you need more life more time. Maybe you're not convinced that the path has something better than that?

Let's move to the second condition. The empowering condition. Empowering condition begins when we seek guidance for something that we have never been able to guide ourselves in. We have not led ourselves to the Path of Awakening. Or maybe we've let ourselves to the foot of it but let's take in everything we have. Guidance is what helps us step onto the path. Do we have guidance? What is our relationship to the guidance we've requested or the guidance that we've told ourselves is what we will use

how earnestly Are we following the instructions we've received?

Or how

negligent have we been really? We have to be honest nothing's final we can always make a decision to move forward. But only if we're honest.

Do we understand the guidance we've been given or did we just collect it did it feel good to receive guidance? I know people who've spent 20 years or more going and studying every year with teachers but they don't practice. They like to be around the teacher and I can understand that but even the teachers would say hey, come on. You got to practice this stuff

we're not collecting artwork

being honest with ourselves that's a check in of this second condition the empowering condition the the condition of the teacher the teachings, the guidance that's available to us

the third condition is important to us. Once we know we've stepped on this path and we are following guidance. It's not likely that we will just come to all the correct conclusions in a single session of meditation after we've heard the Dharma. It's a path. The path is always about gaining certainty and removing doubt and it's okay to have doubt and it's okay to be uncertain. But that just is where we are on the path. So where are we on our path? This is important. Are there doubts that are keeping us from moving forward other doubts that are keeping us thinking

and playing

in conceptual mind if we have doubt, we stay in conceptual mind

that's how we know

sometimes

we'll hear that fear is what keeps us in our doubt, which is what keeps us in our conceptual mind. Fear an irrational impulse to not be awake. But a powerful enough one. That it has an effect even if it isn't based in anything true.

So where are we? In using the guidance and the instructions we've collected? Do we know what clarification we need or do we not need any more clarification

maybe we know the conclusion we just have to open and drop conceptual mind. The fourth condition is that just drop conceptual mind and be in clear thought free nowness. Let's do that

sometimes we can do that even if we thought we were hung up in all the other three stages. That's the amazing thing about us. We can always have gotten it wrong. Yet we can still always get it right.

Clear unconfused simple, clear and entangled or thought Free Thoughts can come and go. But they don't entangle us. We're clear and unentangled

now notice

we're not losing our substance to the three times we are seeing what is here as it is now.

Well that's a short little routine. I run through this myself so that I don't run off the rails. And usually, when I do this, I'm able to unearth something that I've been doing, which takes a basic simplicity that I've trained for so many years in my life to appreciate and splinters it into some type of complexity. That causes me to wander in concept even though I know better. Even knowing better if I didn't have little routines to go through this. I don't know what would happen to me. And I think it's probably that way. Even for my teachers, I think that they do this too. Maybe a perfect Buddha wouldn't have to do this but I don't think I've ever met one of those. So I'm willing to keep working at it. It's like going to the dentist. I hadn't been to the dentist in like 15 years because they didn't have insurance. I was just you know, just kind of a Dharma hippie. And then my wife said you need to go to the dentist and I thought I don't want to go I really don't want to go and she said you should go talk to Andrew. Andrew Allah check to go to him. He's your friend. He'll help you. So I did. And I was getting ready to lose all of my molars through some genetic thing. And he saved my life. I mean, he saved my face. He screamed all my he How do you want oh my god when he looked in my mouth, you want to wow he really did say that. He put the instrument and when he went whoa. And then he pulled me over to look at that. I don't think he would do this with another client but it was me so anyway, I was very close from having a very different look. And my meditation is that way too. I I think I caught it in time. I really did this. I didn't. I didn't know but then I started to do it. And I found I am totally not transforming I am totally just pedaling the bicycle of concept whenever I practice, and I'm glad I glad I checked that out because that really changed things for me. And although I'm not an enlightened person, I still want to live longer so I can practice. I'm a I'm a very changed person. From my practice. I'm not the person that I was. I'm not as confused. I'm not as selfish. And I have a lot more joy. In honestly and I'm not even a great practitioner. There are also great practitioners out there and they're even more more joyful. You don't talk to them as often. Because, you know, most of them are not walking among us. They're living in Nepal or wherever. Burma, Thailand. So how was your experience with this?

Wow, there's an AI summary. Goodness. I'm gonna actually click on it and see what it does. But I'll read that later. Please unmute. yourself and feel free to talk.

These things can be subtle or they can hit you over the head. We have this sense probably you all don't. But there are people who have a sense that meditation or the spiritual path is something that you just have to bring yourself to and then it does the rest. But it doesn't. There's a path and the path has to be tread and have to course it takes effort. But it feels good. They say it's good in the beginning. It's good in the middle. And it's good in the end. And

there's an awful lot that we can't say that. There are a lot of things, a lot of things that seem good and good in the beginning. But the middle in the end depends on how long the warranty is and that kind of stuff. Oh Graham, I didn't recognize you.

Yes, sir. Excellent discussion. Your metaphor about being in the burning house but going to the only you know room but still maybe that was that was a

very, very good metaphor. I mean, that really captured the spirit of, of the, the, you know, sort of the delusion that I have. That, you know, there's there's some oasis of samsara that's just right.

It's in a bunker in New Zealand. I think we know

exactly right, right, right.

So anyhow, I had a question about the the third the so called Object condition.

The third condition the object condition.

It's interesting that they that it's translated as object condition because of course, in shamatha we have a shamatha with object and without object, which, which refers to something completely different.

That's right. That's right. And this is also translate as a focal condition by the way, which is kind of the same but I'd cut you off please.

No, no, sorry.

So, my question is, you know, in in that book ocean of definitive meaning is that by Walter GORGEOU

that is Mr. Doar J. Yeah.

I will wonder what the what the Tibetan term is and if that's if you know if the two intent object is different than like with shamatha with object and shamatha without object,

I would think so. Is MACBA is the object?

inch as in shamatha with object.

Yeah, MC BA, mi k Pa. That's a transliteration. That's not the correct spelling. You know, this translation doesn't actually have that. I have it in other sources. I could find it another time but I think what it's getting at is what is the object that is being addressed by the various teachings like majolica for example. What is the object of analysis?

In Medina, Monica, yeah. Well, it would be the identity of self and identity of phenomena.

Exactly. It would be thingness it would be the it would be the do things arise. Do they not arise? Do they neither arise nor not arise are a little both and it's, it's it's asking questions about this thing that we assume is real. We assume some thing is real. And that's so abstract, but yet we all of course, we think that we are real, it seems self evident that we are real. And because it seems self evident that we are real people might overlook the investigation. into what that self that we think is real really is and when of course you you spend the time going in and looking through meditation. It's just there's nothing there yet. You don't die. There's just this there's nothing there. At least that's that's what's supposed to happen or that's what usually happens. Similarly, the identity of objects, or the identity of or the existence of the subject, object relationship, all of these things can be seen from more relaxed platforms within awareness. And rather than analyzing them using mind, you can see them from awareness, and that allows prajna to do its work. Almost without needing to enter into much concept. But I think the object is what you're, you're just the self xyM paw. It's holding or grasping, whatever it is that we are grasping needs to be looked at, because we might find that there's actually nothing there. There's just this grasping at nothing. Like you would see in madness.

I've always been a little suspicious of myself saying that there's nothing because I feel like I'm descending into the abyss of nihilism. So I want to, you know, I tend to prefer saying that there's nothing there that's not interdependent, that's not permanent. That's not any sort of autonomous existence self. At the at this at the center is just a constellation of ever changing causes and conditions. And I realized that's the, that's the foundational, you know, sort of the Hinayana view, the conceptual predecessor to actual shunyata.

Yeah, but even in the Jamocha, we would talk about what is it that we're all experiencing right now, because I don't know about you, but I'm experiencing things. I'm experiencing a sense of, I'm here, and I'm talking to, you know, tools out there that and there are people on the other side of those tools. Also looking at screens is now that happening? Well, it isn't is it? Well, you already know this, but just to finish the thought. It's not is it happening or not? It's how real is it? And you know, dependent origination allows for the arising of appearances that don't have any core of reality. And the the MaHA Jana would, would suggest to us that we look closely at what we're experiencing to see if things really are or they are just appearing. For example, I mean, one of my favorite things. If I just hold my hand here, if my hand really were if it really existed from its own side, then what just happened when I moved it, why is there not still a hand here forever? This would be a next hand, right? But wait a minute, how could there be a hand here? And it wasn't there before? Did it just come into being? These are the type of like there puzzles that and that's a very simplistic way of doing it. I understand. I mean, I know that you're looking at Nagarjuna, who, you know, he was really the master of this, but when you start to understand that experiencing things and then assuming that things have a type of reality are two different things. One is, yeah, of course we're experiencing but are we experiencing real things? are we experiencing appearances? And the majolica would say, as much as you can adopt the view that these are like dreams, and then see how that loosens. Up the fabric of your conceptual mind. And maybe the light starts to come in. And then you might see whether they are actually real or not. But you know, one thing before I forget and then I'll go or go on. I think it's really important. To remind yourself that there's a powerful dimension of the teachings that it that says, Okay, we've already focused on what things are empty of. They're empty of conceptual reality. They're empty of self and other and all that's fine. Now, let's not focus on their emptiness. Let's focus on the luminous power of appearance. And that's a much more energizing form. of practice. But it's a practice that usually is handed to people. Once they've established a little bit of the emptiness, the Nagarjuna, the wrong tone with yarmulke side, or Prasanna, become a genomic aside then we go into the luminosity aspect, and that is where we are likely to experience emptiness. We come to the conclusion of emptiness through prasangika Madhyamaka. And I suppose one could come to unex unexperienced they're most of the teachers that had been around have said, Okay, now we're going to, we're going to practice Maha Mudra or something like that and really experience it because it's emptiness can't be experienced. It's not an object of experience. But luminosity can be experienced. And luminosity is the pure expression of emptiness. So by experiencing that, one can start to understand the mode of God we're getting so philosophical here. I have to keep looking at the screen and make sure that you haven't just left

well no I mean, I'm this was, you know, going into the doctrine is always a good thing. But we'll forget. Thank you, sir.

Yeah, of course. Look forward to seeing you around. Yes, sir. Marianne, Marianne, B.

I Jeffrey, nice to see you.

Nice to see you. Where are you coming from? It's dark, dark here, and then

I'm just down the road from you. I'm in Santa Fe. New Mexico.

Oh, yeah. I was supposed to be in Santa Fe, New Mexico this this week this entire week. But 100 I had other had other plans for me. What what's up?

So not so much a question and it's and it's not a problem. But I want to confess that well, first, I want to say I really enjoyed the meditation. That was great. I took some notes. And what I noticed is what I've noticed for the last 20 to 22 years of my meditation and even before then, is that I always have a song stuck in my head. And yeah, yeah, I know just be with the song. Don't find it. Don't push it away. Don't cling to it. Well, I'll get I'll get a song stuck in my head for about 10 days.

Okay, so they change. It's like a jukebox. They do.

They do and sometimes I'll have two alternating songs for you know, maybe 10 days, two weeks. And then you know, over the years, I mean, I have to laugh about it. Because at the beginning of the of a retreat, like I'm going to do a five day retreat and I have a song stuck in my head. Oh my god, it's gonna be me and the wall and this song. So tonight, I was really enjoying the noun and looking at the best blue sky not having any thoughts, but boy, that song got really loud. So I mean, I just brought it up as a curiosity. I mean, I have some other thoughts about it, but that's just what came up for me tonight. So

yeah, do you want me to say something or do you want me to say something?

Yeah, please, please.

Don't fight it. Yeah, I know. You don't have to just be with it. You just, I mean, maybe that's going to be the only option if you don't fight it, but that karma has to work itself out and as long as it has resistance, it will probably persist. You know, it's like a very slowly in an inner tube. No, of course I can relate. I don't know that. I have that. To the extent that you're describing but oh my god. I listened to on the way. I drove three hours to retreat one year and I listened to all of some Rolling Stones album that I hadn't listened to in forever, like, Oh, listen to this on the way to retreat. What a mistake. What a mistake. I've gone through the entire Beatles catalog and retreat for stuff I haven't heard in years. So I know how that is, but at the same time, awareness is still aware, otherwise you wouldn't be able to report this. So if you can, if you can understand that the song is is a is it's giving you a way to know that you're aware. And that awareness is okay with that song. You know that because it's aware of the song, but more relaxation will only send you into the awareness it won't send you more into the song so

the song gets louder. Well,

maybe awareness gets brighter. Is it awareness getting brighter or is it the sound getting louder?

Yeah, I mean, I've had some interesting thoughts about it of late like it almost during my day, it almost sometimes I think of it like a mantra like it sort of takes me white or it sort of prevents me from thinking because there's just the song. I don't know.

Do you actually work with a mantra Do you have do you have practices like that? Okay.

No, no, but I've noticed I've noticed that the only thing that gives and I'll just say it this way that gives me relief from the song is a noting practice. So I do the see hear feel it's a personal practice. And when I'm really listening to the present moment, really listening to the sounds are really listening to the silence, attentively actively in the song as well. Well, that and

no question. I mean, yeah, I don't know if you're referring to what science is. Called the sound of silence, or the Nada, sort of the roar of net of of silence or the roar of space of the roar of nowness. If you can merge with that without losing your awareness, you're consuming all the bandwidth that the mind could use to express itself. But it's a healthy way of doing it. You're letting the phenomenal world speak its natural mantra. Just that or whatever. Do that. I mean, if you can do that, that's not but you know, my favorite teacher Sonia, Rinpoche would would just say he would always append this but don't use it as an antidote. That's not an antidote to the song. That's actually you becoming fully being, which isn't an antidote to anything. It is the end so I wouldn't be doing that. Unless you really liked the

song. Well, I like it the first couple of days and then it gets rolled

to wear out Yeah. Okay. Hello, Jerry.

Jerry,

very well. Yeah, well, you know, your four point presentation today is of course very interesting. But you know what I listened for example to Andrew. You know, and night club in his presentations. He always emphasizes that, to do meditation, it's important that first you know, you you do Shama shamatha? And nothing he said tonight seems to relate to that. Is that just another way of speaking or what?

I'm not sure I understood. The difference you pointing out. Well,

Andrew would say you know, before you get into meditation, you know, you first have to get into shamatha you know, that that's peaceful, abiding, I guess. And then you can use the passionate you know, to direct your attention to particular objects or, you know, whatever you have in mind and you know, nothing you said that today, it seems to ROI to that. I know, there's very, very,

I think you're the media says are you asking? So Andrew is emphasizing that before we begin meditation, we do Shama to practice, and you're asking that's what you're asking about, right? But, okay. So what we're talking about tonight, isn't exactly a how to approach a meditation session. Although we did this in a session as a contemplation This is more a diagnostic run through of the, of how you are in your life with relation to the ends of the path. Now the last part of it, what I described is clear, thought free now oneness is shamatha. That is the experience of shamatha. So one is going through the process of coming to that. That clear thought free now notice is that's what shamatha experience is in this Mahamudra tradition, which is going to be the same thing Andrew teaches now the actual practice of it, the the mechanics of how to do that. Are you know, that's a different set of instructions, and it's, of course, what one would do but the purpose of shamatha is to bring you to clear thought free nowness so that the transformative aspect of the path can begin. So it is important, yes.

Okay, well, thanks very much. I mean, I love these talks, you know, I mean, everyone presents stuff from a different aspect. And I know they're all related. But you know, sometimes the terminology is different. And I get, you know,

that's why, you know, eventually you have to choose your path. You choose your path and you go that path and you know, I think what, what's Andrew has pulled in a number of his friends, who are teachers, and we've all been trained in the same I mean, I think I would guess that everyone who teaches in night club has been trained in maha mudra. So we are all doing that.

Okay. All right. Well, thanks very much. I mean, I love these sessions.

I'm glad to hear it. Jerry. You take care of yourself. Okay. Bye. Bye. Hello, Anita.

No, thank you. How was your retreat?

It was great. We had was it last weekend?

Last weekend, was it.

Oscar was there Oscar was it last weekend? No, no, it was a weekend. This is Monday. What am I saying? It was last weekend. Now know what it was? It was fantastic. We counted on having 10 and we ended up having 25. And we were hustling to get the tech going, but it worked. Well, and please come please come to the next one. It's October 21 and 22nd.

Let's see if I can I have a question?

Yes.

You drove us to this rabbit hole today. And I loved it. So suddenly I get to a place when I I don't know if I have thoughts or not but they don't bother me. It's like, you know, a leaf falling or something. I don't. I don't care about it. But I get to a point that everything is center in a ceiling of the whole body. So it says okay, I'm aligned in London, with most heart into my body. So when we are going to overcome because it's like a very racial is a very interesting situation. I love it. But we have to overcome that to

overcome what

your body because okay, I wasn't thinking like, I didn't care if I have thoughts. So I got to the moment where I was just feeling and was feeling my body like like if it was a whole thing. I mean, it's the whole body at the same time

sounds good body feeling.

Um, I like a very nice vibration. But the thing is, we are going to overcome that to to give to the nowness

overcome

what do you be feeling?

Overcome what does that mean though?

I were going to where is my English? We are going to pass that stage to stage and just feeling.

I think what I would say if I understand you is that that feeling of the body is like a platform that doesn't need to go away. That's very healthy feeling when we are embodied and we feel just feel. Thoughts can come and go and we don't really care because we're in the body and we have power. And we have natural power. We don't have to feel powerful. We just notice that we don't care. The thoughts don't really matter. It's just like after you've eaten and you're walking down the street, you pass by restaurants and you don't even look at the menu you've already eaten. Well, that's good. That's a good position. To be in. The path then would open up to allow exploration of awareness and the nature of things. So that's where we begin to get into the, the teachings the Dharma teachings of we have to have that. That stable feeling first. So now our mind becomes available. And we can probe and understand because awakening happens in the mind, not in the body. The body will benefit from it. But the body is already fine the way it is the body doesn't really need to be enlightened. If we can feel the body. The body is well now we need to clear up the confusion of the mind. And awakening is just to become aware and alive in reality. It isn't anything new but it might be new for us. But the body if you're able to feel it, and just stay there within it. That's a very good platform to then do the rest of the path. So you're describing the beginnings of shamatha and then on the basis of shamatha one begins Vipassana org clear seeing practice. And so I don't think you have to overcome anything. I think that that's a that's a very good place to be. But there is more to the path. I mean, it's that feeling

that just just stayed then we will go through that was my question.

Is feeling the body just a stage

because it is it is very interesting because you don't care if you're thinking or not, you don't care. It doesn't. You know, I just say okay, I mean, it's like it leaves the leaves falling from a tree. It doesn't distract you. But I'm not aware and of course it's not something steady, I suddenly think, Oh, I'm filling my whole body at the same time. So that's a thing I thought, but I get to that point. And I wondered if that is a stage. And you just told told me so that the awakening is in the mind. So we have to go back to the mind.

We have to stabilize the way you are describing so that awareness can begin to see the mind we can also once we're stable, begin to use the mind to look at itself. These are two different paths. People are on you can do them both or you can do one or the other. But yes, we're not trying to get away from the mind. We're trying to gain stability and then stand up within that stability and look at the mind.

Gently Okay,

yeah. And we will have insight which doesn't come from thinking, but arises as we are looking at the mind and its thinking, we see it's sort of like realizing that we've been daydreaming that's not another daydream. That's waking up from the Daydream. So you have a good start though, so I would just continue to do that.

That's your forte. Drivers naturally

I accept responsibility.

Thank you.

Okay. Hey, puram one more Hmm.

I can't hear you.

I'm more likely to sound intelligent if you can't hear me. But, but the the first condition the causal condition in which one develops conviction that you know, samsara is truly a hopeless situation and can offer no refuge really.

That's That's it.

Is that a result of the passion? That's Oh, go ahead. Go ahead or does one for truly passionate, does one already have to have entered the path of seeing

Yeah, I think I thought I remember you ask him the question I got before. No, definitely not enter the path of seeing. I mean, that's the that is the big one with a passion and there's a lot of little ones that matter before that big one that's winning the lottery. And that's a lottery that we all are going to win at some point. So that the causal condition of seeing that samsara offers no refuge is a product of the passion, but it's a product of what's called worldly Vipassana. So the like in Tibetan prepartion is locked on clear seeing and worldly Vipassana is Jik 10 locked on worldly Vipassana and what that means is you're contemplating the Four Noble Truths. You're contemplating impermanence, like course impermanent, death and suffering, and you're coming to the conclusion. I gotta get out of here. That that's a type of upasana it's a prajna activity, but it isn't the type of prajna that has been directed in to sit to the seer. It's not quite that level of a passionate but it's like, you know, it's like if you think of the three if you think of like the the movies where the swords person is, is fighting and fighting and they're, they're getting back to the ship. And they're fighting everyone and then the last minute, they jump onto the ship and Haha, and then they go off. Now they're going off to the big proportion, which is going to happen in the sequel con would have Sorry, just sorry, but the proportionate sees into the nature of things can happen many, many times before one enters the path of seeing the path of seeing is usually that's the, that's the first Bhumi or that's the third of the five paths, they all kind of correlate there. That is an irreversible, direct yogic perception into the nature of reality. And when one comes to that, whenever they enter into meditative absorption, they enter into direct experience of shunyata. And then when they arise from it, the world comes back and they have a dualistic experience that would be the first Bhumi or the path of seeing and then after the path of seeing their, their Samadhi both lengthens and then during the day they also begin to see it a little bit more Bhumi 1234 all the way up in these are like blackbelts but there are two types of upasana there's worldly and transcendent. They're both very important. And one leads to the other is all I wanted to say.

Will that be analogous, you know, worldly, worldly and transcendental. Could we say that synonymous with conceptual and non conceptual?

Well, they're both. They both can be conceptual. You know, the Parsha is a very special use of the conceptual mind. It's a non proliferating conceptual mind so you're using a type of concept which can perform surgery on itself. The type of a portion of that is non conceptual. That's what we're getting into when we talk about like Mahamudra experience, where we're just looking directly and maybe the looking itself is a movement within the mind, but it doesn't even have any content. So it's kind of a non consent non thought, conceptual movement of looking that only lasts for an instant and then resting or being in that and then when that fades away, that activity happens. So it is the passionate does use concept, but it's not the same thing as just you know, the thinking that binds us we're not binding ourselves by practicing Bipasha Anna

Very good. Thank you. You bet.

All right, let's send I don't know if you're still here, but you asked about a Trent about a paperback version. of this book and if Trongo is the is the commentator that's amazing. So absolutely but yes, a GM so is the translator. Oh, yeah. Yes, he comes as one of my favorites. So that sounds like a find I didn't know that was available.

Wow. Yeah. Looks like it's like on Amazon and maybe Barnes and Noble. So

it's so funny. Here's the most secret book in the Mahamudra tradition and then two of the most legitimate people, rule followers are publishing it. Mind blown, but thank you for pointing that out. If you're gonna get that book, I would also look at traleg Rinpoche his book, his translation of the moonbeams of Maha Mudra. Those two books go together really nicely. And traleg Rinpoche is a joy to read. He's so wonderful. So Alright, everybody. Another Monday night. And you know what's waiting for me upstairs. Tuna melts because it's tuna melt Monday, because it's Andrews night. So I look forward to seeing you all again. If anyone is interested in doing a weekend are guided and supported. Please come to the next finding ground at home retreat. It's all done online. But I think we're finding a winning formula. We're making it better and better each time. You can go to my website, Jeffery stephens.org. To just see what it's all about. And if you want to register for it, I think you can even do that. But I definitely look forward. Definitely look forward to talking to you all again next month. I may be coming to you from my hometown of Urbana, Illinois. If we can get the cars fixed in time so very best to you all practice well and keep your inspiration and whatever you're doing, you have your full heart and I'm sure that it will work out well.

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