S4 E27 - 5:11:22, 12.05 PM
5:57PM May 11, 2022
Lee Skallerup Bessette
Hey everyone, welcome to our season finale of season four of the podcast, all the things ADHD, all the things. Jazz hands. We have done the most episodes ever for season four. I think this is episode 25 or 26. I should know this because I literally just set up today's the episode that launched today yesterday. And this is also our 71st episode of all the thing is ADHD yesterday, the last episode was number 70. So this will be number 71.
I love that that's like the kind of thing we only notice in retrospect. So now we're going to be like, join us listeners. Let's celebrate 71 Yeah, a total random ADHD thing. Like I finished a Thing Two weeks ago, right or, or whatever it is, like we could you know, some people tend to anticipate big, big milestones coming up. But I always seem to get blindsided by them. Oh, shit, it's Mother's Day. Yeah. Oh, okay. What will we do next week for that? Because I totally didn't plan or whatever it is. So today we can celebrate our 71st
Well, I'm not gonna lie to you, I sort of went in and counted because I'm like, surely we've done 100.
Surely we've done 170 It may feel to some listeners as if we've done 200 episodes. I think it feels to my husband that we've done 200 episodes. Yeah, well, we've
done 200 words of episodes, I would think compared to like the pace that other podcasters tend to talk like the equivalent of 200 episodes of lose. But anyway, I am one of your co hosts, Lee Skallerup Bessette.
And I am the other one of your co hosts, Amy hope Morrison.
So as I said, this is going to be we I decided, we decided that this was the finale that we're going to start our summer hiatus. Just because I'm about to enter a really busy period at work because when of course, faculty start slowing down, faculty developers start ramping up. And we have a giant on campus events that I am co organizing, I am in charge of programming and logistics so dry. Well, not not all the logistics, but the logistics when it comes to the programming part. So I don't have to worry about food, thank god or anything like that. But I do have to worry about all the technology being in the right place and working at the right time for all of the sessions to be
to work, I am glad that people like you exist. Because I am not people like you, I would look at that task and be like, I know the things that need to be done. And then I would become absolutely paralyzed and not do any of them.
Well, but I'm sort of like that right now. Um, I'll say this that I had, you know, you want to like external on my colleague, shout out to Caitlin. And she's gone on to do to do a much better job. But she was my person whom she did that. So I'll just put it in a nutshell, she did the spreadsheets. Right? She did all of the spreadsheets. I told her what needed to happen. She was an amazing project manager. She would tell her all the things that needed to happen. And she would come up with the schedule and the checklist and the steps and the spreadsheets that were needed in order to organize the thing in order for it to happen.
Oh, I love that. I love that when you can find somebody who has like a complementary skill to yours because like I also would know exactly what needed to be done, but have like absolutely no capacity to execute in a sustained and tactical and practical way. Absolutely. No. And
yeah, and so she's now gone. And so I'm thankfully she left templates which have helped but bless at a certain point. So I this was this was a moment at work where I learned about an I wrote about this for women in higher ed. Higher education is is a moment where we have to like I have to get better at asking for help, but also like articulating the kind of help that I need in the moment. Right. And so I didn't I did when so I'm in charge of programming and we send out a call for everyone to see the entire campus to submit sessions. Right. It'd be a great workshop, research session, roundtable, whatever. Yeah, we were just overwhelmed with the response. We thought that faculty would not be interested. They're like burned out. We got almost 50 applicants for Do proposals. And then it was like, Okay, let me make it work, right, you know, fit all of this into four days that you didn't think you would have to do. And by the way, half the people actually want to be in person, and half of them want to be virtual. So
I was tired.
But it all comes to me in a spreadsheet because they fill out a Google form, and it populates a spreadsheet. Right. And I'm not good at reading spreadsheets. I'm really not. Spreadsheets don't make sense to me. I'm a more as I always say, now, I'm an up down person. I'm not a side to side person. Right, like, spreadsheets, I have to navigate both up down to side to side. And that's one too many planes. It's the multiverse. Yeah. So like, I can't take the multiverse when it comes to data presentation, and so on. So all of this comes in, it's closed. And we're on a tight deadline, because usually we're doing this in December, or we're actually doing this in March. Ran the thing is in May. Oh, boy. And yeah, so I'm just like, and it is our as we say, Sydney, one of our signature events. And so it's an all hands on deck, all like this is we got to make this work. Right, right. And so I asked to, well, could you beta test this, or not beta test? But could you test and play with this tool that we're talking about and thinking of adopting another faculty wants to use? And I said, No, which is uncharacteristic of me. I believe it, Lee. But I said, I said no, because I have to do the programming for TLI, OSI. And then it was plenty busy. Yeah. And I said, I was an I worded wrong, because I said, I hate sweet spreadsheets, and I can't read spreadsheets. And so the so the offer was, well, if you don't like this kind of work, well, we could take you off of it, especially if it's taking this much time that you can't do anything else. And I was, and finally I articulated it afterwards. Because I because I was taken aback because I was like, I love actually love this, I love to realize I love programming. This is great. It just takes more time. Yeah. And that's what I wanted to articulate was that I just need more time for this than I typically do. And even less distractions. Like, I cannot Spider Man on this, I cannot take a 10 minute break to play with the software, like I have to, like, stay focused on this. And it's just gonna take me more time to read it. And to make sense of it. And to process all of this information, I can do it. It's just not as easy for me as many, many other things that I am tasked to do. Yeah. And so one of the things was is that, you know, the the help that I thought I was saying is that I hate this work. When it was really no, this work is just harder for me. And so the help than I can ask for is just I need a little bit of space this week, right? And I literally said it, I said, Once I get past this week, it's fine. Like I'll have a lot more time. But like this week, I really need to focus on this thing, while also doing the other stuff that is part of my day to day job. Yeah. But, you know, but to also say the help that I would need after the fact is just check my work, right? Because I'm sure I'll have missed something and made mistakes. So I need somebody to come in, who is better, who is maybe not better at this, but finds a little bit easier to actually like, check the details, right? Because again,
like, like you need your editors like when you write your freelance, you do your best and then you are a little bit more confident letting it go to the next level. Because you know, someone is going to be like the stop gap there. Yeah, for you. Right.
But but it was just this really weird moment. Because usually I would have Caitlin, and we could and I'm used to having these conversations with her. And she knows that I'm not good at spreadsheets. So I can say these things to her. And she says don't worry, you know, do your best and then we'll figure it out or, or she would reformat in a way that she knew would be more comprehensible to me. Yeah. Which, you know, she'd make these anyways, she does spreadsheet magic. Like not only can I not read spreadsheets, but I literally don't understand how Excel works. And again, it's one of those things that I could learn. I know I could learn it. It's not rocket science, but you're not interested in it know exactly. And so this is, so it's this moment, and don't worry, I will come around to our episode topic I'm getting there. I came up with it as I was telling the story is that I have a level of acceptance that spreadsheets are never going to be my thing. Yeah. And this is the thing that I need to ask help for in various kinds of ways. And it was just interesting. The reaction to that was like a I said no, which people were like what what? And besides that I was struggling with something which again is not something that I typically do, mostly because most parts of my job are not a struggle for me. You know what I mean? It's not that I struggle. It's just that it's like write a thing. Okay? Do a webinar Great.
Talking to paper,
not a problem, right? So so that it's just this very edge, but but also how matter of factly I did it, I think I wasn't apologetic about it, I was just like, No, I'm bad at spreadsheets,
I'm so proud of you. Honestly, that's really great to be like to own it, right? Like, this is who I am, I am not going to enjoy this. And I'm not going to be great at it. And I would need somebody to help me with this in this way. And like, you know, there's a lot of things at work that you can do incredibly quickly with no notice and no problem like last minute webinars for stuff. But like something that this kind of task would probably take you longer than it would take other people just because it's the type of task that is full of that is the minefield for you. Right? Yeah, of things like that you find boring or things that you're not skilled at, or things that that require, like too much working memory, that you're not able to kind of muster the excitement that you need to be super interested in focused on it. I think that's really great, actually, that you know yourself that well, and that you can just say it without apologizing, that's amazing.
But but without also saying, Well, I'm not going to do it, right. Like there are parts of it that I enjoy, right? I enjoy reading, and learning about all of these amazing sessions that faculty and staff were proposing. And I love the actual event, because it's like a conference. The extroverted me is like, Alright, let's go. Yeah. But also, you know, so that user, I sort of had that motivation, where it's like, this is a task, but I don't like to do. But it is an important task in order to achieve a shared goal. That is both important to the organization, but also important to me, as an individual. But, but you know, it's just gonna take me more time, and I'm just gonna, you know, have to try and figure out how to do this. And it's not the hard part is to is, it's not necessarily something anybody could help with, necessarily. It's just like, you know, I just need to stare at a spreadsheet for a couple hours. until it finally Yeah, I know, oh, but at least it's not numbers, right? Like, it's all text. I can deal with that. I'm not trying to make sense of numbers, but and then stare at a grid schedule. After the fact, after I make sense of the spreadsheet, stare at a grid schedule, to be able to then plug everybody in, so that I take into consideration, you know, not scheduling like things against each other and making sure everybody who wants to be virtual gets a virtual slot and make sure everybody who's in person gets an in person slot. And I do
kind of like doing that stuff, like I used to also, when I was a graduate chair, in my department, I would have to slot I think I've spoken to this before I have to slot on all of our, at that time, about 130 graduate students into the available teaching for graduate students. And that was, that was like a, again, a sort of like, the upper year students are going to get in certain types of courses, but everybody gets a certain balance of courses, you don't give like one person to third year Soulcharge teaching and somebody else like three sections of first year writing, like you have to balance it that way. And then you have to think to have that they have to teach in terms in one non teaching term, or this person has a scholarship, so they only get one teaching and my spreadsheets for that were like I would take over the conference room and have pieces of paper that I would spread, I would say my coordinator Look, I am spreading the sheets that she would like let me do that because I needed to see them all at the same time. And then I would like pencil stuff in and the big grid and I kind of enjoy the it's almost like a Sudoku, right? Like if I put this person here, but I can also have them in this spot. So if I put this person Oh, no, wait, that screws up this other row. And I would just sit there for a whole day and try to figure it out. And I could do it. And I don't mind doing it like that. But I would never do it on the computer. I just I learned the hard way there that that it was never gonna make sense to me in that format. And my coordinator would laugh at me she's like, he's like, Have I done something wrong and creating the spreadsheets and stuff? I was like, no, like, there's no way you can magic this, that I'm gonna be able to do it on a screen. Like there's just exactly. So yeah,
yeah. And that's the thing. So it's, like I said, I said to I said like, I know, this eventually has to end up in another spreadsheet. And I said, but I need to do an integrated. Yep. Right just in in Word. And just to be able to sit and have my two screens up and have it integrated because if I'm doing it in a spreadsheet, like it'll, I can't I can't look at it as a spreadsheet. I have to have it in a grid in Word. And then I'll retype it later. Yeah, exactly. If as long as you give me a template to tell you because I mean I'm so bad at spreadsheets is like I literally don't know what should be on the vertical and what should be always on top.
Right right like that. You Like, Oh, yeah,
I learned from working with my former colleague, Caitlin that, like, My instinct is wrong. Like, I'll start setting up a spreadsheet, and she'll look at it. And we'll and you know, like, turn her head to the side. And I'm sort of confused concern. Try not to and she's like, why did you do it that way? And I said, I don't know. She's like, how about we do it this way? And then does her, you know, waves her spreadsheet wand? And I'm like, That makes much more sense. And I never would have come up with that in a million years.
Right. You know, because I had her.
Yes, I know. And she left him plates. So like, well, because then we got a GA who's like, well just use Caitlin's spreadsheet template. And I'm like, Yes, do that. Please do, please do that. That'll work. But again, is is just this sort of moment where I, you know, again, unapologetically was just like, this is not the thing that I'm very good at, but I will do it. And I don't mind doing it. But I just, you know, need a little more time than I wouldn't normally need to do my tasks, right. I know, y'all used to be doing it in like eight seconds, but it's gonna take a little time.
So you are practicing then leave self acceptance? Yes.
Trying to and articulating that articulating my needs as well, right. Mm hmm.
So we were thinking of talking today and we are talking today. About we're inaugurating with this our final episode of the season our summer off self acceptance.
We need like I need like the xylophone sound right now. Can
I move over to my piano? I'll do that for you. Yeah, so I've been thinking about this video, I recently saw on Jessica McCabe's how to ADHD channel, where after sort of six years of making videos, she's kind of come to the realization that she thought that she accepted her ADHD, but she can really see that as she was quite wedded to this narrative of overcoming, right? Of like, Oh, great news, now that you're diagnosed, you can fix everything about yourself or like, here's some tips and tricks so that you don't fail out the things that you have always failed at, or basically pass for neurotypical right. So I think she's really she looked when she looked quite thoughtful and a little bit upset when she was like, doing this video really thinking about, as she describes her own sort of internalized ableism, that she really only accepted her own ADHD, insofar as she could see, and others could witness that she was doing everything humanly possible to be less ADHD, right? So a little bit unwilling to accept that, it doesn't matter how many productivity hacks you have, right, and how much therapy you do, and how diligently you take your Vyvanse or whatever it is that you take herbal supplements, you're still disabled, right? That's it, you still have ADHD, and that, even if you're not able to sort of show everybody on Earth, how hard you are working to not have ADHD anymore, you're still worthy of being accepted. Right. And, and I know, we've talked about the call coming from inside the house, how internalized ableism works is that we don't even require other people to tell us that right, that we have to always be striving to overcome. Because, you know, fits in with that, that episode we did about like, isn't that just an excuse? Right? Yeah, that's the sort of narrative we've internalized. So it's very hard to accept sometimes a stigmatizing diagnosis like ADHD, and then you're like, Oh, well, now at least there's a reason for the ways that I am. And then that moves almost immediately into Okay, and now I can fix it. Yeah, right. And it's exhausting to try to fix it all the time. And, and on this podcast, too, we talk a lot about, you know, some of our tips and tricks for doing things. And I do think we have done a pretty good job of sort of saying, like, you know, it do be like that sometimes, as my kid has a tendency to say that there are some things about yourself that you, you can't change, and that sometimes the work that you have to do to sort of quote unquote, optimize your brain are kind of the results are not really worth the amount of effort it would take to get you there. Right. And, and so there has to be room a little bit for self acceptance, what if you could be, or like, let's say me, like, what if I could be somebody who is always on the verge of being late for literally everything, and I'm trying my best to not be late, but what if I just kind of forgave myself for that's just who I am. There's various reasons why I'm always on the verge of being late for things. Some of them are like, rooted in some of my childhood experiences. And some of them are rooted in my brain not being able to tell how long it takes to do things and you know, I I've managed my schedule so that I have fewer things that I have an opportunity to be late for Right, like, you know, I do my teaching in longer blocks on fewer number of days, and I try to stack my campus obligations all together on one day. So they only have to get to campus once and then I'm going to be there for all the meetings and not be late to campus like four days in a week. But like at the end of it, I'm never going to be the one who's there exactly six minutes early, so that I have time to unpack my bag and get my computer set up and take a sip of my coffee and chitchat with people I'm either half an hour early, or if I'm lucky, exactly on time, right.
And it doesn't make me a bad person. Some people are always they're exactly on time exactly six minutes early, they don't, they don't arrive breathless and sweaty to the meetings, but like, I used to be much worse at this before my diagnosis and for my treatment and and I found myself saying like, a couple years ago, when I was starting my treatment, I got to a meeting and I was like mad because I was one minute early and I was sweaty. But I was like, Well, you know, it used to be you'd be 10 minutes late and sweaty and would not have been prepared for the meeting, but you are prepared for the meeting and you are on time, like maybe you're never going to be serene about it. And maybe I could just accept that that's that that's who I am. Right? So it's great to want to grow as a person and it's great to want to improve and there are some things that we need to work on like impulsive spending can be a real problem for people, right. impulsive behavior can be a real problem, like severe inattention and avoidance of paying one's bills or returning one's library books can have, you know, severe negative consequences. And like maybe it's it's okay to get good enough. Yeah, those things, but still visibly to other people be like, Yeah, well, Amy has ADHD. She struggles with another like, oh, yeah, I see it. Not like, Oh, you'd never know. Yeah, right. Exactly. The goal is maybe not Oh, you'd never know that she has ADHD, maybe the goal is she's doing pretty well. And she's trying and like, let's not ever make me be the first one here to unlock the door for everybody, because that's a recipe for failure.
Yeah. And I think that just knowing, and this is, I think, particularly hard for women, but I think particularly hard for women neurodiverse women who have worked so hard to try and mask, right without even knowing it. Right? Yeah. Where, you know, like you said, about editing a book, right with someone, and you think you should be able to do it, or it's like I'm or, you know, like, the late thing, you know, in a past life, I would have been the one who volunteered. In part because I want to be the person who, you know, as as, as a, as a, as a woman, this is an important and I want to be seen as responsible. And I want to be seen as somebody who can be relied upon and I want to be so I'm going to be the one who volunteers. Right. Be there to open the door. Right? That's right. And trust me with the key.
Yeah, I'll show you and myself that
I can do it. Yeah. And then either, you know, disaster is huge, usually was usually averted, but at the but like, it was tight, like, what was the cost of that internally. And so now it's even just knowing that you're not that person and saying, like, I am not going to volunteer for this, here's the thing I will volunteer for, right? Or will offer because like you do want me to write copy? You know, do you want me to? You know, do you want me to, to write copy to, you know, organize the schedule to you know, do whatever.
As long as I'll stay late and close the room, right? I'll stay late and close the record, you want to get there early, and you're gonna set up and do chitchat with people, I will stay late, clean up the things, you know, have the chit chat with people on the way out because I or I'm not going to be late for that, because I'm already there. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, somebody has to open the room. And if somebody has to close the room, that's a much better sort of parallel task for me. And I It's okay to say, like, I'm going to be better at that than the other thing. And it's okay, that if I have to do, you know, some room openings, for example, that I'm only going to get there one minute before, and I'm going to try to do better, and I'm just going to be happy that I'm not actively late, or that I forgot. Because at the end of the day, I still have ADHD, and it is very hard for me to get places on time. It just, it just is like my husband was so confused because he always like, builds in extravagant travel time. And you know, he's like, he's like the calendar on my phone. That's like, you know, you have an appointment in 15 minutes at this place. You know, take this road traffic is light, it's going to take you this amount of time and I was like, Oh, that's really good to have on my phone. That's like, you have to leave at this time if you want to get there and I'm like, Ah, I don't think so. I just gonna play one more song on the piano and then I'm gonna change my lipstick color and then no, I've decided to wear a different pair of shoes. Oh shit, I'm late. How did that happen? Every single time. Right?
Well, so it doesn't help that I grew up in Quebec where literally everyone thing is late for everything. And that's why everybody also speeds because everybody's Like, wow, it only takes me 10 minutes to get there. Yeah, if I go 90 words, or well, 90 miles if I go 120 kilometers an hour on the highway, weaving in and out of traffic and swearing at people, you know, yeah, and I get they're stressed out, but I was
just like, I was gonna say I was just add a scholarly thing and pull back. But I wasn't I was at a scholarly thing and called back three years ago. And I was like, complaining to somebody because the thing was supposed to start and it was like, 20 minutes late already. And she was like, What are you fussed about? It's like, low carb depleted is the core of our of politeness. Right? Like, you know what? We don't have a term for that in English Canada, because that's not a thing.
No, it's totally think in Quebec, or, like, you know, oh, it's only it only says it's gonna take me 10 minutes by Metro, but then you miss the metro. And they're 10 minutes. Sure. And like,
god dammit, if I caught it, it would have been 10 minutes. Yeah, but yeah, since I didn't catch it now. I'm gonna be late. Dammit. It doubles your time. Yeah, so there's like, something's like you're at the end of the day, you're you still have a disability, right. And it's a bit. That's the internalized ableism again, saying like, you know, it's not like if I get if like my sister, I tripped on something in my house and somehow get a chunk of the hardwood floor embedded in the sole of my foot that becomes wildly infected. Once you determine that it's wildly infected, you can go to the doctor and get some antibiotics and some stern looks from the doctor because it took my sister four months to go to the doctor for this. Oh, that's my classic my sister. She was like actually hobbling to have surgery to get the the sliver bottom of her foot. And the surgeon called the doctor, and you could she could hear the doctor on
the phone. Like, I know, I don't know why she didn't come in. So yeah, so he's my sister. They're denied for a long time. She
just like it's just a sliver, like, you know, using my willpower and good attitude. Right? I can fix that. And she couldn't and, you know, gets antibiotics for it. And like surgery, numbed, numbed her foot entirely, literally cut this chunk of wood out of her foot. They're like, Well, it's been in there a long time. And she's like, Yeah, no thanks. And then, but like, after the antibiotics have run their course, she does not have a sliver in her foot anymore. She had an injury, not a disability, right. But we tend to treat our disabilities as if they are injuries, right? Like you have a concussion, you get knocked on the head, you stay in the dark for a while, and you stay on the bright lights, and you stay at the noises and you don't do any brain jostling activities. And after a certain amount of time, you expect well, I'm better, right, I've recovered. And so that's not a problem anymore. But even with, with like concussions, you may have lingering effects forever, right, that illness can turn into a disability but but ADHD is a neurological disability, there is a measurable fundamental difference in how our brains operate, that produce very consistent types of disabilities, right, an inability to really function in clock time in ways that that other people don't struggle with, right? Because we really do have trouble with like, how long is 15 minutes? Right? Yeah, once again, we get there. And we struggle with impulsivity and forgetfulness. So short term memory problems, we tend to be blurs, right? Like, there's all kinds of things that are sort of directly chemically attributable to our disability for which like, sort of maintenance treatments are available, right. Which would be, you know, to get some therapy to understand yourself, and also to take, you know, some type of approved prescription medication to sort of supplement the things that are missing in your brain so that you can function a little bit better, but it's always functioning a little bit better. It's not functioning, to normative baseline, right. And maybe we hold ourselves to too high of a standard, you know, so not only do we think like we should be, we should use all of our gifts, as we tend to describe some of the things from our ADHD, right, like so you, you know, have been talking on this podcast about how great you are at like jumping into the last minute for people and things that would make them scared or they'd not be ready for and you're like, No, that's cool. You're extraversion I'd like I'd like the adrenaline place. You like the adrenaline right? And you write things really fast, because like, in part of writing things really fast is like the adrenaline but also the fact that you are, you know what other people might call an oversharer. Right? Like you have a lot of ideas and you're not afraid to write them down. And that's like, a great gift, right? And we can acknowledge our gifts and thinking, Well, I have to use my gift because that will make up for my deficits. But at the same time, I also have to fix all of my deficits, so that if I tell people I have ADHD, they won't believe me. Right? They'll be like, Why are you but you're always first here to unlock the door. Right? Why?
Why can't sleep here?
Yeah, I came a day early. So like, why can't we? Except that I mean, I guess it's like our neurodivergent hangover episode or like, you know, you do something extraordinary. And then you expect that you can go right back to work. They will productivity right after, but that's not how extraordinary works, right? So, you know, the things that we we try to lean into our gifts so that we can say like, even though I have ADHD, like there's certain things that are still valuable and useful about me, but also I'm going to do everything else just as well as everybody else, right? That's not what balance looks like, that's probably not reasonable.
No, and it's not even reasonable for neurotypical people. Right? Like, we're not all equally good at everything. And that's what you know, that's what, that's why some people are musicians, and some people are not. People are accountants, right. Some people are accountants, and some people are physicists. And so, you know, like, we all have our varying, you know, and it's not necessarily all innate skill, but it's what we're interested in. It's how we've been, what we've learned the the environment we've grown up in and sometimes it's just like, straightforward, like, physical aptitude. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I am not going to be a you know, a gymnast. Just like I could probably do some learn to do like a cartwheel or something. But I will never be Simone Biles. Nobody else is but like even a collegiate level. gymnast, I'm not going to get that my body is not, you know, it just it's not going to work that
way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's good to learn to accept, like those kinds of things. Like we may not achieve certain types of excellence here, there and everywhere. But it's sometimes galling for us to think like, we think we're already maybe trespassing on the world's goodwill, simply by existing in our disabled state. And we always feel like we don't deserve maybe people to accept us unless we can show that we're really, really trying to not be as fucked up as we are. I mean, that's the nature of the disability, a disability, right means like, there is something different about you, that disadvantages you in the world. And you know, you're like, Okay, well, that's an important thing to know about me, but also, unless I am actively trying to make that disappear. People may not accept me as disabled, right. So the only way to be the right kind of disabled person is to actually not be disabled. Right? Yeah. And that's ablest? Yeah, actually. Right. Yeah. And I mean, we talk a lot about sometimes so people don't, don't accept us and our differences. But maybe the first place to start is accepting our own differences. And by differences, I mean, like disabilities, things that we cannot do. And that's hard, hard for me to talk about, like, not being able to do things because I feel ashame about the things I can't do.
Well, and as you said, though, like the the voice is coming from the inside of the house, but also from outside, because yeah, if you are upfront, and and sort of not ashamed of the things you can do, yeah, right. Then it is like, what is wrong with you? Yeah, right. Like, well, I just literally told you what was wrong with me. Yeah, exactly. But But I, you know, we don't, you know, we're not apologetic enough about it. We're not ashamed enough about it. We're not, I don't I mean, like, quiet enough about it, where it's like, with my point, like, say, like, I can't do spreadsheets, or I struggle with spreadsheets, not that I can't do them. I can, you know, etc, etc. But, but to say something like that in just a matter of fact, kind of way. Right? That that puts people off? Yeah. Right. They're not sure what to do with that, because they're like, oh, oh, okay. But it's but it's just, it's, it's the fact of who we are and how our brain works. Maybe not the spreadsheet thing. I think that might just be anything but, you know, well, look, there are people with ADHD who can do spreadsheets, and there are people with ADHD who, you know, can't write like I write and they're, you know, it's, it's, there's, there's a there's a wide variety and I think that that's one of the other tricky things is that no, one case of neuro divergence or disability or autism, and even physical disabilities look the same. Right? And we talked about that before. It's like, I knew somebody I knew one person who was autistic and they don't act like you do. So it's right you
must not be autistic. I know for one of you is lying.
Yeah. Therefore whatever he was lying or Yeah, you know, I, or just the stereotypical view of what ADHD looks like, which is hyperactive little boys. That's certainly can't be you or, you know, again, so there's there is there is the voice that's coming from inside the house, but there is still a stigma and a very real risk. I want to say danger, but a very real risk of Article lating that self acceptance? Yeah. Yeah, the to the larger to the larger neurotypical sort of world.
Yeah. Oh, for sure. That's absolutely true and like, and you can drive yourself crazy with that, right? Like, as many therapists have told me, because I'm a control freak, they will say, Amy, the only thing you can control is yourself. Right? So
when I'm saying like, except I can't I have ADHD.
But I can control my reactions to things, right. So I'll be like, Oh, and this person keeps asking me to do this thing. And they're mad, because like I said, I can't do spreadsheets or whatever. Like, they're just setting me up for failure, I'm not going to be able to function like this. And I have articulated that as clearly as I can. And they're, like, making faces at me and my therapist be like, well, you know, you can't control that, right. But you can know that your experience is valid and real, and you're doing your best to be honest, like, you don't have to change your self concept. Because someone else is being unreasonable, right? Like, just like, it's basically that version of like, Sticks and stones may break my bones, Right? but names will never hurt me. Or when you're, you know, they say Bobo is like, Oh, don't, you know, don't let them get to you. Right. And that has to do with with self acceptance. So maybe sometimes people won't accept when I share my limitations with them, like I know, you know, people I care about have I've struggled with them around my aversion to loud noises and the kinds of noises that I make when loud noises scare me, which they may take, personally. And they'll be like, it's I didn't do it on purpose. I'm like, Yes, but I cannot control my physiological reaction, because this feels like a bullet went off inside my head. And I'm gonna swear, and I'm gonna shriek and maybe I'm gonna burst into tears. And that's just, uh, you know, I'm doing my best to, you know, do whatever I can in my life to not be faced with loud noises like that, or to be like, less stressed out in general, so that I have better resilience around the loud noises. But look, the thing is, that's what I'm always going to do about loud noises. That's just part of the way that I'm wired. And if they accept it, then great. But if they don't, I, I'm at a point now where I'm like, I haven't done anything wrong. Right? Yeah, just because they don't believe that it's true. Doesn't mean it's not true. So I would say I have come to a place of self acceptance around my deep aversion to loud noises and my what some people characterize as out of control reaction to be startled, with loud noises. So that's something I've accepted about myself, because I have ample evidence that it's a reflex, right? Yeah. And I feel physical pain. When the loud noises happened, I'm like, well, that's not something I can change about myself. But, but somehow there are other things that have to do that, that seem more directly behavioral, right? About, like, you know, getting enough sleep or remembering to eat or getting places on time, or remembering people's names that I kind of am less able to accept as Look, that's just how it's going to be. That's who I am. Right. And I'm doing the things I can to, like so I guess I with names and such, like, I think I've talked on the podcast before about how I, you know, make my students all send me selfies that are labeled with their names. And I put it as the screensaver on my computer. So I can like do flashcards and learn their names that way. Because like other people don't need that. But I do and I make them little signs in class, like, for a month, and they put the signs in front of them. And every time I let them like I pick them to say something in class, I will look down at the sign and I will say their name out loud. And I will look them in the face and guaranteed in November, there's still gonna be a day I forget their names, right? Yeah, like, and but I, I feel bad.
There are kids that I coach that I've coached for the entire time that I've been coaching to this place, which is almost three, four years now. And there are days where I'm like, I stare at them. And I have no idea what their name is.
Yeah, like a lot about them. But the name is is gone. Right? And you feel a lot of shame about that. Because you're like, like, what a selfish person I am, right? That these people are nice to me, and I can't even remember their names. And this person sent me a birthday card through the mail. Oh, right. And I forgot their name kind of thing. Right? And I it's hard for me to accept that about myself. I'm like, here's a hack that I use. Here's another hack, and maybe someday I'll pass for normal here. But like, what would it mean to just accept a little bit more that we're actually disabled? Right? In some ways it doesn't mean like, I want like a disability parking pass and a disability pension and, and no accountability for anything in my life. It's not about that. And it's able is even to think that there that there's an all or nothing approach to that. But just as a like, these things are always going to be way harder for me than for others. It doesn't mean that I have to try harder, like hard, hard, hard, right? Not harder. Like sometimes these things will be impossible for me to do like it maybe instead of saying like this is going to be harder for me. Maybe I say this is going to be impossible for me to do without external supports. Without it But having an extravagant toll on me, because that would be admitting that I'm never going to get normal about paying my bills or returning my library books on time or remembering people's names, right?
Or answering emails,
or answering emails. Busted. So much. I mean, it'd be easier if I could be at work. And I see my colleagues, sometimes they'll be like, Oh, let that email and I would just grab them and say, like, Okay, here's my answer, actually, yes. Then I got the email. But I don't get to write but it's just so hard for all of us, I think to be not like, Oh, I'm not there yet. You know, but I'll try harder to just be like, I am really, always going to struggle with this to such a degree that it's effectively impossible for me to be different. Yeah, right.
Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that that's, you know, there are there the things that are more private, and the things that are more public, too. Yeah. You know, where, and then there's the things that we can kind of maneuver around. Right, like, I'll do anything in my power not to have to work on spreadsheets. Yeah. Right. Like, it'll be like, I will, I will, you know, I will fight with Microsoft Word rather than fight with Microsoft Excel, which may be easier to do in Excel, but I, you know, just it's not going to happen. But again, then there are these there are these other things like remembering names is, particularly when you're in education, where they say the most important thing, the
most important thing. Yeah. To connect
with your students is to learn all of their names. Yeah. Yeah. Then there's the maybe it's the what is it that the comorbidity with ADHD where oppositional defiance? Where I'm like, No, I'm going to be the best teacher in the world and not know anyone's names.
I love that your defiance takes the form of like, No, I will work harder and be more successful. Not shock you. Right.
But not know anyone's names?
Sure. Sure. Yeah. That's really hard. That's really hard.
I yeah, I mean,
I think we all probably struggle with this. I mean, it's still it's stigmatizing to have this disorder. And then like, you take medication for it, that people were like, I wish I could get that kind of boost, right? Like, I'd like some pep pills. To do that. You're like, well, if I'm taking my pet pills, I have to justify my like, horse strength amphetamines by doing 10 times as much work like I have to behave on that it means like a neurotypical person would behave on amphetamines and write like 10 papers in three days kind of thing. But like, it just brings me to sort of baseline. Right. But it just means I might be more on time. That's right. I don't deserve anybody to be nice to me about my disability, unless I look like the after picture in the before and after. Right. Yeah. But what if we're always in that space in between? The before and after? Or what if after looks just the same as before, but with more self awareness and harm reduction? Right? Yeah. I don't think we know that
picture and not feel revulsion, but just be like, Yeah, that's me.
Yeah, yeah, that's who I am. That's the way I've always been. And you know, I've stopped, like the dramatic negative consequences from happening in my life. But, you know, I'm just never going to be somebody who's going to be able to teach before 10am ever again, like, what was the insomnia, like, that's just that ship has sailed. For me, I'm not going to succeed at that, it makes my workday quite a bit shorter and more chaotic, right, because I tend to sleep in in the mornings, because I have these midnight awakenings. And I used to really like getting up in the morning and writing and now I can't. And it's not like, Oh, I'm gonna make that up at night. Because I can't do that either night. So maybe right now, my insomnia is disabling enough that I'm doing less intense writing this time of year than I otherwise might be because I just need to sleep more. There's nothing nothing I can do about it. Right? Yeah. It's not like hack this and do that. And maybe like, in the middle of night, instead of like, you know, lying there praying for death, like get up and do your writing and and like, that's God, you can't you can't cheat your disability, right? You can't sometimes it's just gonna be disabling. Yeah, the end, right? Yep. And what do we have to hate ourselves for that we have to hate or disabilities for that and we have to like be sort of Buddhist about it and try to see the reality for what it is in practice kind of acceptance.
I think it's, I think it's the latter.
I think I'm not sure. But I don't know how my meditation apps
seem to tell me right once in a while and I'm but so one of the one of the greatest gifts and I was reminded of this this week, and one of the greatest thing In terms of knowing my what my ADHD is, and doing this podcast and talking about ADHD and getting to know, getting to know myself as someone with ADHD, right, yes, I think that's an important process. Where now that we know, we're neurodivergent, it's an opportunity to get to know ourselves as that through that lens, as opposed to a neurotypical
lens is three to myself, right?
Yeah, don't have to be know exactly. And so I teach a course. And it's a it's called a studio design studio course. And I do and I think I've talked about this class before, where I teach a class on for Learning Design and Technology master students in creating their capstone e portfolio, which also, in a lot of cases serves as a personal website. Yeah. And so we do a lot of identity. And I tell them, I tell them that this is going to be a hard class, not because I'm going to ask you to write a lot, or even build a lot and do crazy things on WordPress or anything like that, this is going to be hard, because I'm going to be asking you difficult questions about who you are and who you want to be. And to look at yourself and to look at your work in a way that nobody has ever asked you to.
Yeah. And, yeah,
but in a lot of cases, you know, I give them prompts, I give them exercises, I asked them to do things, we you know, but at the end, like towards the end of the course, basically, my role is to say, yes, it's okay to do it that way, if that's what's authentically you. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I had one student, and she's, she's a mature student, and she is also Muslim. And so is, you know, conflicted about a lot of these things and wants to also work as a consultant. But she doesn't want to, she didn't want to, like, scare anyone off, right. But at the end of the day, her work is heavily informed by tenants of her faith, around knowledge around giving back around collaboration around all of these kinds of things. And those are the kinds of people that she wants to work with, too. And I just said to her, I said, Look, if you're going to present yourself as, as, as a generic kind of consultant, you know, you're not going to end up doing the work that matters most to you. And at the end of the day, if somebody doesn't want to work with you, because you are Muslim, then that is not somebody you want to work with, either. That's right, and will not succeed. Right? Yeah. It will not succeed. And, you know, it just and she, she was so grateful. afterwards. Yeah, where it was just like, I just needed somebody to give me permission. And, you know, I was like, No, I don't want to say no, you didn't. But, but, but yes, in a lot of cases, we do need somebody to give us permission, right? To be able to do that. And that's something that I really work hard to do now, in my role is to, like, it's okay. And in fact, it's, it's more than okay, to be yourself authentically, after the you know, we go through this 15 week process of, you know, looking at what they've done, where they want to go, all these kinds of things, but if you whatever your conclusions are, that you draw from this work that we've done, are valid.
Yeah, yeah, this is, like we talked in our episode on voice too, right? Is, is instead of trying to mimic, like what you think is that middle of the road, middle of the bell curve, in a pensive and therefore most widely appealing version of yourself, right, or the one that will pass muster with, with gatekeepers, who tend to always be people who are not like you, substitute reviewer
to reviewer to Yeah, and,
and right, and we had discussed then about how when you try really hard to do that you're not being authentic to yourself, and you're going to, even if you do succeed, which is unlikely because it's not a natural mode for you, if you do succeed it at passing for something that you're not the the work that you secure from that self presentation is not going to be satisfying to you and also may not succeed, right? And that like sometimes we have to learn through a lot of experience that trying to be someone else. Rarely fools both people, great. Usually only fools one person, and then the other person winds up being unhappy, right? So you might present yourself as a super timely person who couldn't go be the first person to unlock the story every day. Because that's what you really want to believe and the other person believes your self presentation like that, and then you screw it up every day. Like you're both unhappy, right? Or you manage to do it but like at the cost of you're only sleeping I have hours a night now when you have seven alarms on your phone and you're like, hyper vigilant about everything where you have anxiety dreams about being late every single night. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. It's like a little bit about dating, like, you know, people put up these dating profiles that are like aspirational, not about who they want to date, but about who they think they themselves are, like, I could be this kind of person we know, but you never are. You are who you are. You can fuss around the edges, but pretending to others that you are or somebody else, which is what we do with our own internalized ableism. Right. It's like, I will admit, I have a disability. But only if you can't see it. Right. I would have to I wouldn't want anybody to say like, Is there something wrong with her? I'm gonna be like, Oh, it's ADHD. And they're like, oh, I want to have to tell them. I have ADHD. And they be like, what?
You? You're so successful. Inspiration,
right? Like, which I also hate when I manage that, because people do tell me, you know, I'm an inspiration. And I'm like, God, I'm a hot mess.
Like, yeah, but I'm a hot mess.
But I'm a hot mess. And it doesn't feel authentic. Their price doesn't feel authentic, because it's based on like a lie that I have told, which is I'm fine. I'm great. And I'm not. Yeah. So yeah, that's very relevant example, I think that, that all of us have trouble knowing ourselves in accepting ourselves for, for who we are. And I hate it. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. And part of it is we, a lot of the times, again, we should all have to go to therapy. Is because and I and I working with the students in this portfolio course is that I, you know, I tell them, It's and you've talked about this with your grad student as well is that sometimes it's really hard to see the forest for the trees. So they get into the they get into the program, and they have these ideas about where they want to go. And they the big ideas and visions and goals, and that's great. But then you get into your individual classes, and you have papers, and you have projects, and you have readings, and you have to you know, and then everything gets focused down to these discrete the trees, right, the discrete part of it. But so they come in, they'll come into my class. And, you know, I'll say it. I'm like, How many of you can see in your projects? How they relate to one another other than the fact that you were the one who did them? Yeah. And most of them can't. Right. And so then it's that work of like, they've done these things. But they don't know, almost why they've done them. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like
they've done them to please somebody else. I mean, that's how disaster oriented, right is that things will come to us, if the people who have the resources are pleased with our efforts, and then they will disperse some resources down to us, right. It's never about who we are and what we want, like particular in educational contexts, it's mostly about proving to the authority figure that you can be the type of person with the type of knowledge manifested in the type of ways that that authority figure one. That's right. And that's how we were more about understanding other people's motivations and less about understanding our own.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, and I think one of the reasons I'm, I'm good at this teaching this class is that I mean, I'm authority figure insofar as Yes, I teach the class. Yes, I have a PhD. But but in terms of the class itself, you know, I don't know I've never they hate it. Because there's never a right answer. They're like, Should I do this? Or this? I was like, I don't know. What feels more authentic to you. And then they throw things at me. Right? Like,
yeah, that's my pedagogy of provocation. I call them
it doesn't have to Miss Miss. It will have to be a five paragraph essay. I don't know. Does it have to be a five paragraph essay? No. Oh, my God, I hate you.
Yeah, exactly. They're like, Well, should I talk about this? I'm like, I don't know. Do you want to talk about should I talk about my hobbies? I don't know, should you? And of course, I'm always, I also say, and I'm like, I am admittedly, a outlier example where, you know, I show them I'm like, I am an overshare. Here, my a million tweets. Here's my deeply personal blog. My sewing blog, here, my other 17 blogs, here's my podcast where I talk openly about my disability. Here's why. And I say, that's not everyone. I get that. I get that you don't have to do this. In fact, I would recommend probably
not. Probably not. Yeah, your mileage may vary. Yeah, your mileage may vary.
So I think that that's an ultimately I think, what I've what I do in the class is I shift the focus is like, you're not trying to make me happy. Right? You are not trying to make me happy in this class. I am trying to help you meet a programmatic goal, which is to create an E portfolio. Mm hmm. That ultimately, I don't really judge. Yeah, right. Um, And so for me, what I want you to do is to make this project meaningful for yourself, right? You're the one who's you know, and really shifting that responsibility, or, you know, and working really hard for it. So it takes 15 weeks and then stuff. But, but it's been, it's been such a, again, a learning process for me to where that's, you know, teaching this class over and over again, has really helped even myself think about these things and think about my own identity and think about how I've chosen to share myself. Yeah, so what that means to me and think about, well, is this is this way that I've been doing things still serving a purpose for me? Or am I just still doing it, because that's what people expect me to do.
So like, maybe this is, this is my self acceptance, my suburb of self acceptance project for myself is, is to think about, you know, I've been on this ADHD journey for, you know, a bunch of years now and medicated for
a bunch. How long has it been now? Like,
I think 40, I think was 43. So it's been about six years, I think, and, and, like, at this point, you know, any miracles that I expected, either therapy or drugs to produce will have been produced. And so I'm settling into the version of myself that knows my diagnosis, and that is receiving medical and psychological treatment for that, but like, who am I now, right? Like yet, what is still going to change about me and, and I know that there are some things I do in my life that are designed to work around the immutable differences that I that I have, I bring earplugs with me everywhere, because I can't make the world quieter, and I can't, I can't change my reaction to noises, but I can say, you know, I just don't deal well in noisy environments. And I'm going to bring orange fluorescent foam earplugs, um, in the world, we'll deal with that. Right? Yeah. In my life, and that's okay. And that's self acceptance. But there's other areas of my life where I'm like, if I just get the right dose, and maybe like a few more sessions of therapy, I'm going to be able to transform this part of my sort of enactment of self in the world into something that is less disappointing to me, which is to say, more typical, right, and maybe I just need to get a better acquainted with those parts of myself, that you know, after now, six years on this journey, are probably, you know, not going to reverse themselves, right, any dramatic changes have probably already happened. But maybe now I need to work with who I am, instead of trying to hide or overcome who I am, right? Like I can maybe work on strategies, so that I arrange my life so that I know I have a tendency to be barely on time for things so that I don't put myself in situations where I have a bunch of things, I have to be scrupulously on time for, right. And I can keep name tags for people so that I will eventually learn their names. And you know, maybe there's some other parts of me that I don't have to pretend that are going to do a 180 Write that I'm suddenly going to be a different type of person, if I just try hard enough. And maybe I just need to accept and work with those parts. And that's maybe something I'm going to do over the summer is just try to really think about which parts of me are going to stay just the way they are now. And how can I make peace with that?
Yeah, that's hard. Right? Yeah,
I'm doing it in a non teaching term. That's why Yeah. of self acceptance.
I love it, though. But other than it being a summer is self acceptance. What are your what are some of your plans for the summer? Um, some
of my plans for the summer include probably some trips around Ontario, there's a government incentive for doing like hotel stays in Ontario, you can actually claim some of your lodging expenses now because they're trying to reduce the tourism industry post COVID. Right. So I think we're mostly going to stay in Ontario this summer, and do a little bit of trips that way. I want to do some museums with my kid and some art galleries and that kind of thing and sweat a lot at the pool that my community pool, how about you?
I'm going to be shuttling my children to various activities all summer. My daughter got a job coaching. Yeah, at a summer pool. But so in Canada, at least, and maybe it's changed, I don't know. But in Canada when I was growing up, you couldn't get your lifeguarding certification until you were 16. That's right here. It's 15 Oh, well, there you go. And, and so she passed her lifeguarding certification and she's not going to lifeguard she only just wants to coach which I'm okay with. She's still only 15 She'll make some money, but she'll still have some balance. You know, but when you're when you're 15, who can't have a driver's license?
Yeah. Okay. Like you think you have a problem there. Lee. Here's my problem. My kid is turning 16 At the beginning of June. Yes, who is teaching them how to drive.
Yeah. It's not going to be their father. I will tell you that. Yeah,
no, exactly. No, it's the same in my house. She's already said it's not going to be dad that is teaching me how to drive. It's
so maybe my summer of self acceptance is also going to be my summer of trying to keep my child and I alive, and in good spirits while I teach them how to drive. I,
this is the sort of thing though, that I'm sort of like, you know, what? How much is it to pay for lessons? Yeah, this is like, this seems like an activity or task. Like we're gonna pay an accountant to do your taxes. We're gonna pay a professional to teach you how to drive.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll see. I'll I'll report back on that in the fall. When we come back. Yeah, my husband was like, really? Like, oh, yeah, you should definitely I think it's going to be great. Lynn's gonna get a license. And Lindsay Does this that the other and I looked at him, I said, you're picturing Elin driving my car, aren't you? He was like, Oh, God. Yes. I was like, yeah, that's why you're so sanguine about it. Right. Every time you're picturing our kid behind the wheel, the kid is behind the wheel of my car and not your car. Right. Okay, so your summer is a summer of driving?
Yep. But it'll, but it'll be nice, right? She's, you know, she's gonna coach and she loves that kind of work. And my son is going to swim. And so you know, we're gonna go to the pools and we're gonna go to swim meets and my husband's work is the travel is ramped up. And so he's going to be gone most of the summer, which is why our vacation. We're planning on going to Scotland in September, we have our plane tickets and everything already. I know. I'm so excited. I've never been to Scotland and the kids have never been overseas before. Oh, my gosh, amazing. Yeah. So we're really excited about that. But sort of white. And it's always really hard for for me to do vacations in August, because that's when the my job starts ramping up again. Right. So we swim the entire month of July. Yeah, right. It's all swim meets and practices and team parties and all that kind of stuff. And then August rolls around and it slows down. But then my work goes up because we're getting ready for faculty to come back. You know, so So we're like, yeah, September, October is probably better for a family vacation, which is which is fine. So it's
that's self acceptance right there. Yeah, not like Well, yeah, buddy takes vacations in the summer. Why don't we take vacations in the summer like a normal family? Well, and now you know, I know that she'll have a better trip because
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and we went through the same thing, like I'm saying went about this, because, like, I went through the same thing growing up where it was like, why can we never take a summer vacation? You're always at the pool. And you always say no, but I have the synchro meet. No, but I have a swim meet. No, but there's five water polo games. Yeah, no, but you know, and then I started working and it was no, but I work 40 hours a week at the pool. And then some. So it was always like, yeah, we can't take we shall take vacations When normal people take vacations. And so there you go, we're gonna go to Scotland in the fall. Why not really, really gonna get the Scottish experience is gonna be very foggy and chill. It'll be perfect. Yeah, there will just be like, you're gonna we're gonna I'll take pictures of my daughter looking longingly over the like, mores or whatever.
Perfect. very moody and atmospheric. Yeah, so So what should we leave our listeners with for the summer leave because they're going to be deprived of our constantly yammering high speed crosstalk?
Well, they can always I'm sure if they're if they're like us, they probably forgotten what we said in past episodes. So feel free to go back to the beginning and re listen to all 71 episodes. That'll kill some time.
completest about it? Yes. Love it. That's great advice.
But also, I think, you know, think about ways that that you can practice self acceptance as well. And encourage those people if you're one of those people who are listening who live with somebody who is neurodivergent help them without being patronizing. But find ways to encourage and help them for find self acceptance through your own acceptance of them. And just Yeah, and just be you know, take a vacation from being hard on yourself. Oh, right. Like perfect. Yeah, take a vacation for me and hard on yourself. Take a vacation from beating yourself up. Take a vacation from trying to be trying to appear neurotypical take a vacation from all of that and just be this summer.
Oh my gosh, Lee you need to make like an Instagram. Like inspiration poster with pastel colors and like some beautiful calligraphy right? Take a vacation from being hard on yourself. I think I'm going to write that down somewhere. And that's going to be my work this summer. I love the way you phrase that. Lee thank you very much.
Oh, that should be a clip. Maybe I'll put that up on Instagram. Yeah, put that up on Instagram. Absolutely. Or I'll destroy distract myself by logging into Canva and trying to make the most inspirational Instagram.
Yeah, yeah. And then forget what you were doing.
Yeah. Just like, just like there's no artwork because I don't know what Canva account I used and I can't find the template. Those let yellow Cocker
yell. Hashtag relatable. Okay, we should wrap this up and let's all start their summer.
Yes. And thank you again, everyone for listening. You know, if I do the math, there's probably a little over we were just over 71,000 downloads 72,000 downloads. And so there's a little over 1000 people listening to this if we divided up that's 1000 More than we ever thought.
Absolutely. Yeah. So
we thank you for that. We appreciate that. We love all of the emails that you send, we love all the comments and the tweets that you send us and and like take a vacation from being hard on yourself and we will see you sometime in the fall like like Amy and I were joking before it's like what are we going to tell them we're coming back and I'm like, let's not do that to ourselves.
We're just gonna same fall. And we're not going to say what you're
no don't worry, it'll Well no, no, let's go study with samosas doted. Size time has no meaning. You won't tell them you won't know the difference. Take care everyone. Have a great summer. Bye