Ep 17: Inclusion Matters: Inclusion is everybody’s business and we all have a role to play in ensuring inclusion for all members of society.
8:47AM Jul 22, 2021
Speakers:
Shelli Ann Garland
Patricia McCarthy
Keywords:
people
suppose
disability
realise
education
gaston
universal design
person
disabled
inclusion
include
learning
blind
vision impairment
patricia
dog
engage
felt
students
society
Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in Shall we?
Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Dr. Patricia McCarthy, Dr. McCarthy graduated with a PhD from Trinity College Dublin in 2014. her thesis focused on the educational experiences and transition opportunities of vision impaired and blind young people. A key component of her research to date focuses on universal design and Universal Design for Learning, inclusion and participation of marginalised groups. Patricia's ontological position as a disabled researcher has been instrumental in the development of her research and recent publications. Patricia is a visiting Research Fellow in the School of Education at Trinity College, where she is has been a master's thesis supervisor and an active member of the research community. She also serves as the inclusive education module coordinator on the postgraduate certificate in 21st century teaching and learning and the Disability Rights practicum coordinator on the arts, science and inclusive applied practice in the Trinity Centre for people with intellectual disabilities. beyond her work at Trinity College, Patricia lectures on inclusive education and inclusive research practices and Disability Studies. She's currently a member of the NCSE consultative forum, co convener for TCD, disabled staff, post grad forum, inequality committee, staff disability Working Group at TCD. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today to talk to you about why inclusion is so important and why it is everybody's business. Welcome, Patricia.
Thanks Shelli. And I'm delighted to be here. And I look forward to talking to you about lots of issues around disability inclusion, and who knows what else today?
Yeah, and as we know that it's a really important and a very hot topic, in light of a lot of things that have happened with COVID over the past 18 months, and and we're definitely going to get into a lot of that. But first, I'd like you to tell us a little bit about yourself and about your own educational journey.
Thank you. And well, I suppose I'll start by saying that I am registered blind and I also have a physical disability. And I say that because my visual impairment meant that when I was being educated back in the 1970s, and 80s, it was the norm in Ireland and in many other parts of Europe and the world, probably for those that were registered blind or have a significant visual impairment to go to a special school. So I from cork, I left my family home in the middle 1970s moved to Dublin to boarding schools a generation and originally went on three times a year and did my primary education and my post primary education there. And I was amongst the first cohort of students in the school I attended and to set state examinations in Ireland. So I suppose it wasn't, you know, there wasn't a high expectation for blind people to go any further than sort of, you know, lower post primary as was really, and certainly not to pursue further education or higher education. You know, there were certain areas of employment deemed appropriate. Some of them at the time would have been things like telephony, so answering phones in an office situation or things like that, and computer programming was another one and I suppose when I did leave, I did sit my leaving cert. And, you know, passed it, didn't do wonderfully well, but I did pass, leaving cert. And you know that it was sort of what, I would do, there was no such thing as a career guidance and place for me at the time. So really, there wasn't any expectation that I would achieve at a high level. So, you know, I went and did a computer programming course, in what's now a national Learning Centre, which was run by the Rehabilitation Institute, I did it because it was deemed the appropriate thing to do. I didn't particularly like it and I certainly didn't excel at it. I completed it, following the death of my mother, you know, always believed I was capable of doing whatever I wanted to do and encouraged me as much as she possibly could, always felt, you know, try something if it doesn't work, you know, it's not, it's not the end of the world sort of thing. I applied through CAO mature student section of CAO form to go back and go to university, and I did. So sociology and social policy in UCD. I found that very different. Well, it was because I, it was my first real long term experience of, I suppose general education. And you know, I was now in a situation where I was going into, a lecture hall where there was anything from 200 to 600 students, I was used to being in a classroom of no more than 10 people. So it was somewhat of a culture shock, there was less emphasis on my disability than I had experienced in previous experiences of education. So they felt that I was capable. So therefore, I got on with things and I did quite well. I went on, and I did a master's in sociology, which I really enjoyed. I at that stage, I got the opportunity to do some tutoring work with first year undergrads, which I loved. Because I always wanted to be a teacher, I suppose, unlike my friends would always say that was the one thing throughout my post primary education was always the area I spoke about, you know, I'd love to be a teacher. But it wasn't perceived as a viable opportunity for me at the time. And so I suppose being able to do the tutoring was the next next best thing. And then I was coming towards the end of the masters, and it was on what are you going to do next? And I thought, I have no idea. I was advised to go to speak to Professor Michael Shevlin, in the School of Education in Trinity College, Dublin. And we had a number of conversations around, you know, what I might do, you know, all of that, I suppose, then I had to take some time out for medical reasons. And then I started my PhD in 2007. And I graduated, as you said, in 2014.
But you said a couple of things, um, that, you know, kind of really struck me was, firstly, at a young age, how old were you when, when you first went away to boarding school, seven, seven, so seven years old, being taken from your home and cork, and if for anybody that knows the, you know, the geographic locations of cork, and Dublin, you know, that's a long ways away for a seven year old to be living away from home. And so I'm, I'm sure that must have been hard on you, you know, emotionally and mentally, as you were kind of, you know, learning to live and navigate so far away from your family. And, and then the other thing that that struck me was the, the low expectation that they had for you that society or community had for you, as vision impaired students that it almost seems as if they were either allocating or tracking you just into things that they felt that you could do not, not what you felt that you could do and aspire to be. And did you find the accessibility you know, being able to in the net late 90s to have issues with accessibility for, you know, a person with a visual impairment, to get on with your coursework in your classes and be able to have access to, you know, the things that you needed in order to be successful.
As a seven year old, you don't really realise that, you know, I didn't realise I was losing my sight very quickly. And, you know, in a way, I didn't realise, I suppose, why I was in my head being sent away to school. But, you know, on mature reflection, I realised that it was equally as difficult for my parents, particularly my mother, because it was my mother was the driving force behind ensuring that I got an education. And therefore it was she made the decision that this was the only option for me to get an education. So yes, it was very difficult. You know, I suppose, while I was in school, as well, as everyone around me, we were all blind or vision impaired. So that was the norm for us, you know, people walking into them with people tripping over things, nobody took any notice of that, because we all did, it was interesting. And I mentioned at the start that I had a second disability, and that was seen as the oddity in me, I was perceived as being even less able, than some of my peers. Because, you know, I couldn't walk as well as them. And whenever I'm, you know, from an early age, I felt there was something wrong with having a disability. And it was something that I suppose for a long time, even when I left school, and I tried to mask I tried to hide, and in more recent years, my status deteriorated more. So I know, from 2010, on I, I was using a white cane, or it was less and possible to mask or hide, t'was by then I had matured a bit as well. And I realised that actually acknowledging that I had a significant visual impairment actually cause less distress for me, and less embarrassment because, you know, people then realised, well, if, you know, Patricia walked into the bin there, why does she walk into the bin, like when they knew I couldn't see the new why i walked into the bin when they didn't know it was close to our hearts or thing? So you know, so I suppose really, I recognise the importance of disclosure, and it is really important, and like, I would always, you know, as I've gone through education, I've always disclosed, you know, as I said, you know that, you know, the perception that we were weren't capable, that goes back to the medical model of disability where, you know, your disability is something that needs to be cured or fixed, or, you know, if it isn't, you're not, you're, you're segregated. And you're, you're sent down a very particular path. That has changed considerably in recent years. And like, even since I began my journey through higher education, the numbers of disabled students entering and progressing through higher education has increased significantly, you know, and it's now over 7%, which is at undergraduate level now, it's only 2.4% or there abouts at, postgraduate level. So that's, that's a little concerning, as well. And it's, you know, it's an area that I have a lot of, you know, I'm passionate about and trying to improve that situation. I suppose when I started my undergrad, I was still able to read some print. So, you know, the, my biggest challenge was finding the books on the shelf initially, and I was very fortunate in UCD, that there was a dedicated librarian to support disabled students there. And, you know, he worked very closely with me throughout the time. I suppose when I started, technology and myself were not on close terms, and I don't know why I was very anxious about using computers and all of those things but I realised, as I progressed through higher education, that if I was to complete and compete with my peers, I mean compete in a not in a competitive way, but to be able to achieve, I suppose at the same level as then I needed to use technology to enhance and to enable me to access printed material, when you think about education, text and access to, to printed material is the what is the more significant thing within education in many ways, you know, you're heavily reliant on it. And, you know, as you progress through the system, you're expected to be able to, to read and analyse and work with increasing amounts of printed material. And that can be very challenging. And particularly if you don't have easy access to printed material in an alternative format, format that, you know, works for you. And as well as in case I forget to say it later, I'm going to save now, a lot of people think that, you know, if something is available in PDF, it's not necessarily accessible to blind and vision impaired people, particularly when they're using screen readers. Because it depends how it's saved. And whether it's saved as an image, or, you know, has a text file component or because if it's saved as an image, the screen readers Don't, don't recognise that there's any print there. You know, so that can be hugely frustrating. And particularly when you're, you know, expected to read large volumes of work when you're doing your PhD and things like that. And suddenly you open a document, PDF document, and, you know, there's words on the page for want of a better way to say it, and it's telling you, there isn't. What I know there is, that's very frustrating. And I think that's, you know, that influences, you know, whether you you continue in education or so, it's really important that you have easy access in a timely manner, to all the reading materials that you're required that you're not constantly on the backfoot waiting for someone to put it into a format that you can read it in, you know, you're constantly trying to play catch up,
then that puts you at a disadvantage, and does make it more challenging your thesis focus on the educational experiences and transition opportunities of vision impaired and blind young people. Tell us about the background of your PhD research and your main findings and how you feel that they're relevant to education.
Thank you. And I suppose from what I'd said, it's probably very obvious in many ways, why I chose the topic I did, it was something I, I'm very passionate about, as well as being passionate about it's, I feel as blind and vision impaired. And vision impairment is a low incidence disability. So therefore, you know, some teachers could go through the whole teaching career without ever having, you know, having the opportunity or the experience of teaching somebody who is significantly visually impaired or blind. And however, that in itself causes challenges. Because Because there are such low incidence, you know, when somebody who's blind or vision impaired comes into the education system, there isn't always the supports and the knowledge available to support that student through their educational experience. You know, as I said, my own background significantly influenced my decision to go down this path around exploring the educational experiences and transition opportunities of blind and vision impaired people. I chose very early on to specifically and exclusively focus on the individual themselves with a vision impairment, or those who are blind so there was I didn't interview any of their support And network or anything like that. And that was, that was, that was a deliberate decision on my behalf because often, the voice of the blind and visually impaired people person is often diminished by the experts that are supporting them. So I chose really to just focus on the person themselves, and let them tell me their stories of their experience of education. And the three main themes that came out of it were identity. And we've spoken a little bit about this already. And also, around normality people, a normal abnormal, or the perception that they were different. And more to the point, that was significant. And access, which we've been talking about in relation to printed material in relation to technology, in relation to engaging with different subjects, your curriculum. And then the third one was transition. And I suppose just to go through some of, you know, those aspects, as I said, identity was an overarching theme that really impacted on all aspects of their lives in many ways. Some people that were interviewed, you know, didn't have any negative experiences of having a vision impairment, and really didn't see any big deal about it, which is wonderful. However, for a lot, their vision impairment was something that hampered them in that others perceive that because they had a vision environment, you know, they should go down a particular path. And my research, interviewed people from the age of 17, to early 40s. And I suppose I chose that range for a variety of reasons, primarily, because those in their teens and 20s, were predominantly educated in their own localities. But, and in comparison, those in the 30s and early 40s, for many of them, their experience was quite similar to mine. So they went away to school. And I wanted to see, was there differences there. And there was some, and I suppose the biggest one is actually, you know, you immediately when you move away like that, one of the first things that happens is that you lose contact with why not family to the same extent, definitely friends, so, you know, when you go back those weekends or holidays, it's harder to, you know, to have a social life and things like that, which is very important for young people. Also, I suppose the issue around expectations was definitely less positive for those in the older age groups, you know, so their, their career path was very much directed, was was in the younger age groups had more opportunities in relation to, you know, the subjects the job in the school, but also what, what they would do when they leave school, and so they had access to career guidance. And some of those was very positive, some of those was less positive. And, you know, so the expectations were, were increasingly that they, they would have the opportunity if they wished to go on to further and higher education, I suppose in relation to the curriculum. And there was certain things stood out, I suppose the majority of those I interviewed had significant challenges accessing the mathematics curriculum, that was the one that really posed greatest challenges. And of those that did maths you know, a lot of them were encouraged to take foundation level maths at the time, which back then, you know, that whatever grade they got, it didn't count towards points to go on to further and higher education. So that was quite a negative aspect of that. You know, some of them were also recommended that, you know, they might give up maths altogether. I had one A young man, and he was completely blind from a very early age. And, you know, he was being he was in the school and in his own locality. And he was being discouraged from going with the maths curriculum. But he was fortunate enough in that he had support from family. So I was able to continue working with it, and, you know, kept it up and kept it all but honours level, but he was one of the exceptions. You know, I always felt, you know, looking back over, you know, all the data, you know, that these decisions were being made at a very early stage in their education journey. And often were being made without consideration of what they want to do. This, the students themselves might want to do when they leave, post primary education, I really think that you have to, to look at each individual and see and consider what, you know, what expectations they have for themselves, and what they might want to do, and not limit their opportunities at a stage early in their education, you know, so all of those impacted on transitions as well. So transitions to higher education, further education, and employment. And we all know that people with disabilities are under represented within employment. You know, it was significant there, you know, I also had a small cohort of participants who actually transitioned to sight loss during their, their teens or early 20s. So it was interesting, and particularly looking at those that, you know, lost their sight in their 20s. It was, it was really interesting to talk to them, because they had experienced, being able to see, and suddenly, people and society around them, treating them differently, as a result of them losing their sight, and immediately not, you know, saying not seeing their abilities or focusing on their disability. You know, you can see clearly how all of this impacts on education and the education system. And I really think we need to be more aware of, you know, what, you know, how we can support all students, but particularly those who are more challenged by the system to to reach their potential, and not limit them as, you know, during their formative years, and make them feel that they're not capable?
Yes, absolutely. One of the things that you mentioned there was, you talked about the older, the older cohort of your participants, and kind of having a different experience than the younger and it almost seems like there there's been like a generational mind shift between disability or the sense of lack of ability to all of a sudden, it being more ability focus, so that somebody that has a disability, the focus more is on what you know, their ability rather than their disability as a hindrance. Are these findings that you had specific to blind and vision impaired people or more general to people with disabilities, do you think
I think having young people with disability in mainstream general education systems has has changed the mindset, some what, because no teachers are having the opportunity to to teach these young people and to, to experience you know, that just because they have a visual impairment or you know, have any other kind of disability, that their disability isn't the only part of them and that they have a lot of strengths and skills. And in relation to my findings. I would definitely think some of them are particular to vision impairment are more particular to vision impairment, but like even access to printed material, that would be very rare. For those with dyslexia just as easily, but I definitely think it gives a very good insight into, you know, the education of a small cohort of people, and what some of the issues that they have experienced are also relevant to the wider education system. And as it shows the need, and you know, for ensuring that everyone is included, that it's not, because often when we speak about inclusion, people immediately think about disabled people, we need to include the disabled, or we need to include, you know, and we're, we're focusing in on particular groups, whereas actually, everyone wants and needs to be included in different ways. There's never one, just one way of including a person or people and what works for, for me, as a visually impaired people person, won't necessarily work for another vision impaired person, we're all unique. We all have, you know, different needs. And I suppose it's important to recognise that actually, everyone has needs of some sort, regardless of ability or disability. And, you know, unfortunately, for a lot of the time, you know, it only appeared as if those who are disabled, or what have you disability, had a special educational needs or special needs, you know, and really, when you think about those terms, it actually says that the education system isn't designed in a way to enable disabled people to engage in the education system, it should, it should, that's what it should be saying, rather than actually, it's the person who, you know, has the special education and need, it's the system isn't what isn't established and organised to enable that person to, you know, to engage in a positive, genuine authentic manner, with whatever they want to do. And I suppose in relation to that, you know, often within education, somebody is the designated person to look after the issues around inclusion or around disability, or whatever it might be. And we really do need to move and, and genuinely move to a position where we realise that actually, inclusion is everybody's business. Everybody, regardless of who you are, has a role to play in ensuring inclusion for all, and not just for some or particular groups of people. If we, if we moved to that mindset, I then we might also move away from this dichotomy between ability and disability. You know, at this point, I refer to myself as a disabled person, and I'm not going to go into the, the rigmarole around why I call myself a disabled person, rather than a person with a disability. Because I'd probably be here for another day talking about that, but I feel that I am disabled by that by the society in which I live. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't have an impairment that, you know, restricts my ability to walk, you know, so I can only walk particular distances or it doesn't, you know, mean that I, you know, I can't see, particularly well, you know, so those sort of things, but I definitely think we need to, you know, we we need to move to a situation where we are thinking about inclusion for all and inclusion, by all so everyone has a role to play in ensuring everyone is included. As if, if we don't work constantly to present, this group needs inclusion, and immediately by doing that, We're excluding somebody else.
That's so powerful. And you know, that, that, that that whole statement that, you know, inclusion is everyone's business and, and the fact that you're so passionate about that, and you know why it is for both sides, for all sides, and you know, of the disability or ability spectrum and those who are support, you know, our supports, and, you know, again, community members and society, you know, we all, like you said, we bear responsibility, and we all have a role to play is, is absolutely crucial and vital,
I'll give a brief example of how people can be inclusive, or how people can be, you know, exclude. And people that follow me on twitter will know that I regularly bang on about alternative text. I, you know, I know from you, Shelli that you have gone to a huge, you know, you've really made as part of your pod casts, that your podcasts are as accessible as possible and inclusive as possible. And alternative text is one of those things that everybody can do. Yes, it takes a couple of minutes longer. Yes, you have to think about it. But when you don't include alternative text be it on, you know, for video be it for images, you're immediately excluding a cohort, somebody, you know, and, yeah, I suppose I would feel, and hopefully one day it will happen, that there'll be a time come when you actually cannot put up an image, if you haven't put up alternatives of text. And if you haven't checked it, because assuming that, you know, one of the platforms is doing this isn't or isn't good enough? Because, you know, I can guess I go into images, and it says, you know, it could be a dog? Like, that doesn't tell me anything. Right? If they're saying it could be, because that immediately means it could be something else as well. You know, so it is, and that's, that's just a very simple example of how inclusion is everybody's business in society, you need to authentically, and, you know, you need to be genuinely thinking about inclusion, rather than saying, oh, I practice it in this session. That isn't inclusion, because while Yes, it is including somebody in a particular setting, what happens when they go outside of that setting, we all need to say, okay, we all have a role to play here.
And nobody's perfect, you know, none of us are perfect, but thing of it is, is, you know, if we try, that's certainly a step in the right direction. So if you make the effort to, you know, make yourself more conscious and aware of, you know, who may be looking at or hearing or engaging with, you know, you or your, your social media content or that type of thing, and what are you know, how can you what are the few few steps that you you can take to make it, you know, more accessible for everybody, you know, to engage, you know, in that, like you said, you know, inclusive idea or frame frame of mind. Again, we're not perfect, but man, oh, man, you know, how much difference can you make by just, you know, making a few steps and trying?
Exactly, and I really appreciate the person that tries, I don't expect people to always get a right. I also really admire the person who reaches out to me in the private capacity and says, I don't know how to do this, what to do. How can I are, can you check this? Because I then know that they are thinking about it, that they are genuinely trying to be inclusive. We want all this together, right? I don't always get it right. And I'm not saying we always can get it right. But we need to share we need a mindset shift. Yeah. where, you know, our attitude is that we're trying, you know, to include as many as possible in as many situations as possible, you know, that we are actually actively trying To do that, rather than assuming that, or it's done somewhere in the background, or someone else will do worse, or, you know, all of that, you know, in a, in the education system, you know, we we now need and, you know, we are realising that actually, it's an, you know, you can't just send somebody into a different classroom when a challenge arises, and they can't engage with the curriculum. So as we all, you know, everyone needs to be able to work with the diversity that is within our education system. We're all recognising that there is a diversity in our community now and in Ireland, you know, we have a growing diversity of all groups, NGS, disabled people are often put outside of that diversity group again, and they're, they're still seen as different. And while we're doing that, we're not actually appreciating that is the person pushing them outside of that group that is actually making them different, rather than the fact that as a disabled person, I am different? Because I'm not, yes, there's certain things I can't do. And I hold my hand up and say, I can't, you know, but, that doesn't make me less able, or that doesn't make any person with a disability, less able, we just need to find the ways to ensure that they can be included, and that they can participate. In many ways, it's an attitudinal shift, we need to make first and foremost, and realise that actually, we all do things differently. And, you know, we all engage, we all learn differently, regardless of whether you have a disability or not, you know, you know, sometimes it's just finding that hook to engage a person in education. So you know, and it's being prepared to try something. It won't always work, and there's nothing wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with failure. It's how we respond to failure is the issue. Yeah. And sometimes we fail, because we just forgot that little thing. And we won't ever forget that again, we all have to try to see when something work doing it this way. And you know, if it doesn't, it's okay, if one aspect of this didn't work, and what can we change. And I suppose for me, it really is. One of the things I always talk about is, inclusion is never an endpoint, because we're always having to consider about inclusion and how we can include other people in and what we are including the main, I suppose inclusion, in a way is a bit like a wheel that constantly goes around, and people are getting on and off the wheel. And therefore, you have to start again, and look at how we can include that person. And it is realising dash, you know, inclusion. and by extension, I suppose, universal design and Universal Design for Learning isn't a fixed thing, you know, that, it really does depend on the situation that we find ourselves in, and how we can, you know, work within that, and being prepared to try and try and try again. And sometimes you get right on the first time. And sometimes it might take four or five goals, often, you know, when, when people are trying to include somebody else. So I'll give an you know, I'll take myself as an example, you know, when people are trying to include me in whatever it might be. It's amazing how many people neglect to ask me how I could be included. So I suppose one of my messages would be, you know, engage with the person or the people you're trying to include. You know, they are often they are the experts in their own lives. They know what works for them, they don't what doesn't work for them, you know, and it's amazing what you can achieve, if you, you know, engage with them and authentically Listen to what they're saying, not just say, Well, I gave him or her the opportunity. But if you're not following up on what they're saying, or saying, okay, I can do that I can't do this, because and explaining why you can't do something, you know, not everything was possible. That's okay. But it is, it's having that authentic conversation with the person and the people, you know, rather than somebody else making the decision as to how this is going to work, a person, or a cohort of people,
when we when we seek to include, we need to listen to the voices of, you know, those that we're trying to include. And then you said, you know, ask ask them, you know, they are the experts within their own lives. And, and I think that's really important, because we need to be flexible, and, and, you know, there needs to be fluidity to decisions that are made. And I think that's one of the things that's, that's quite beautiful about universal design for learning, because it has that, that fluid, that fluidity and that flexibility to say, if this isn't working for this student, or this child or this, you know, pupil, or this person. And you know, let's try this. Let's have this work. So I think that fluidity is important.
Yeah, fluidity. And definitely, I think, with Universal Design and Universal Design for Learning, we're talking about being proactive, rather than reactive. Yes. Often, it's, you know, things are being retrofitted to fish, a system that isn't working. And then it's an additional now, I suppose, the important thing to say, with Universal Design for Learning that does not negate and never will negate the need for additional supports, in particular instances. For some people, it might for a particular group, or it might be at an individual level, that will never be negated. But, we have to, you know, try to make things as accessible as possible to the widest possible group. For me, universal design and Universal Design for Learning, it needs to happen at all levels of the education system, are just in pockets. And therefore, that would also increase inclusion, and inclusive practices throughout. So regardless of which school you attend, or which University you attend, or what you know, you know, that actually, there's going to be choice. And you know, how you engage with others. And when you engage with them, and why you engage with us, those sort of things will change. The diversity that we're working with, like some of us, is evident and obvious in society. With other things we don't know. You know, we don't know the impact of the diversity and how that might impact on their educational opportunities. So therefore, ensuring that you know, there is that flexibility is paramount, I believe.
You have a very lovely guide dog named Gaston and he has a new Twitter account that he that he has created or he and you have created together for for creating awareness in the community about guide dogs and access for blind vision impaired. How has that been going so far?
Yeah, um, thank you for joining people about this. Yes, it's, I think it's Gaston on blind McCarthy, or at @Gaston_McCarthy, that but you'll find him and there's a picture of him. So anyone who wants to follow on please do and it's going very well, you know, it's, you know, it was a good way to let people know about certain aspects of having a guide dog what they do, how they do was, I you know, I got gassed on the week before our first lockdown here in Ireland. So, March 2020. And I suppose for the first couple of months, I wasn't encountering too many humans because we were all locked down and that was fine unless it was we were just Getting used to our immediate locality. But when I started going out and about, again, more and going into town and things like that, and I definitely noticed more people speak to me now, but it actually because they want to talk to the dog, and it's fine to talk to the dog if the dog isn't working. And if I give permission, or if the owner of a guide dogs give permission, Boss, I suppose, you know, a lot of people engage with the dog while I am trying to get him to work or to find the crossings for crossing roads. And there was just, I think it was a nice way of, you know, telling people about some of these issues and saying, you know, it's okay to do this, it's not quite okay to do something else. It was also interesting, because, you know, I would often push up about when he was on his, his free runs. So when it's off duty, and not working, and playing in parks and running into rivers, and golf, on walks with friends of mine, who are absolutely wonderful children. A lot of people never thought about Guide Dogs doing those are things I think those are two thought they were, they were permanently with me and they were permanently working. But you know, none of us can work 24 seven, and neither can a guide dog. It is okay. Like if, if God Stan is in a park, and is running around on all foreigners and all of that, it is okay to engage with the dog way, because he's a dog, he's not being, he's not working for me at that point in time. You know, I myself use Twitter. And for me, it's a great way to find out information, it's a great way to impart knowledge and information about things. And I suppose I felt that through Gaston's account, he could educate people around or we could educate people around aspects of owning a guide dog and then go that unlike some people are, are wonderful and they're they recognise that they are working others aren't. Some people aren't aware of the guide the rulings around guide dogs, but also around the legislation around where we can go with go dogs, or sometimes we can be people don't try to prevent us getting in taxes, or people can refuse entry, or try to refuse entry into coffee shops or restaurants or places, which is actually illegal within Ireland. You know, we have equality legislation that says our dogs, when they're working, are entitled to accompany us. So I suppose it is to raise awareness around that. Because, you know, if, if, if you're refused someplace, it can be very distressing. It can be it can be embarrassing, but it can also be very distressing, you know, you're there trying to say but you know, you can't do that. And it's just trying to inform people and educate people more around guide dogs and where they can go and where you know, and also what you can and can't do, you know, you should never try to interfere with the walking guide dog
Gaston hand in an accident on a free run recently. And it's something that you know, our community in our society needs to listen up to because, you know, this, this accident that Gaston had was not due to anything that he or his freerun handlers did. It had to do with something that happens very frequently in society. So do you want to share that with us real quick?
Yeah. And, and thank you for the opportunity. Unfortunately, a couple of weeks ago, Gaston was on free run and as I said earlier, he absolutely loves going into the river and rolling into the river on the riverbank. He got cut by glass on two paws front and back. And like this was broken glass that had been left there by somebody, you know, who had obviously just not considered what they were doing. So you know, we need to be aware. You know, Gaston has now have been, hasn't been able to work for two weeks, and won't bear to work for a little while, yes, he is recovering well, but this accident was caused by people's lack of awareness and lack of, you know, consideration for the environment and for their surrounding, you know, don't leave broken glass, you know, take your rubbish with you business, you know, Gaston was only having a good time, he shouldn't have to, to pay the price for having a good time, because of somebody else's neglect.
And it's an unfortunate ripple effect, because now that he's been down medically, and he has to take time off from working, that now limits your mobility and your ability to, you know, get out and about without, you know, your necessity, have your guide dog with you, because he can't go along with you until he's fully healed.
Exactly, you know. So, here in Ireland at the moment, you know, outdoor dining and the like, have become very popular here. And I am not saying that, that that is the right thing to do. However, you know, there's a lot more street furnishing out there. And I suppose, again, that showed me that it's very apparent to me that people with disabilities were not considered and not, you know, not part of the conversations around street furnishings, and you know, how to ensure that we could still get around safely, I fully appreciate that, you know, businesses need to do their business, but, we also need to be able to access places and get around safely, you know, for me, when I have Gaston, he finds a way around, no. And like, occasionally, we have to step off footpaths, and, again, be uncommon traffic and things like that, but like, you know, we've been trained to do things like that. But like, well, I'm currently on my own, now, it's a lot more challenging, because I'm on top of whatever is the obstacle before I realised that there's an obstacle there so, I suppose that comes back to sort of lack of awareness around disability, and that we have a right to, to be able to get around safely and to be able to get, you know, into wherever we wish to go. without encountering these, these challenges. And these barriers, I suppose the pandemic has, has taught us a lot in many ways, and some of us has been very positive, you know, I think a lot more people have experienced exclusion that would have never experienced it before. Because of the way we've, you know, we were shut down and we had to do things very differently. You know, but as we open up into a new normal, or whatever way, you want to describe it, we can't lose sight of the fact that some people are, are have been impacted more negatively by COVID. And also will continue to be impacted more negatively, if we don't consider how our environment and how it's laid out. And that, you know, that feeds back into and universal design, you know, and, you know, those sorts of things, we need to, we need to be inclusive, and we need to think inclusion, for all,
you know, it's great that they there's more open air spaces for dining and you know, being some alternatives and things like that, but at the same time forcing you know, somebody out into a busy roadway or off from a footpath, you know, into sort of, you know, unknown terrain on the ground, you know, is a barrier and as a problem and there needs to be more sensitivity to to that awareness and sensitivity when decisions are being made about who is this affecting, and how
Absolutely. It reflects that, you know, disabled people are not always at the decision making tables when these decisions have been taken.
As we come to an end. In our conversation, I have two final questions for you. The first is what kind of projects are you working on now?
A lot of what I'm working on currently is around University Design and universal design for learning. I suppose in the last couple of years I've published quite extensively in some of these areas with colleagues, including with Mary Quirke and Conor Mc Guckin, one of the publication's, that we did back in 20 2020 now was for the further education sector, you know, so it was around Universal Design for Learning, and the strategy around that I can give you a link to that afterwards, if people want to read that publication. So yeah, it's it's very exciting times, I suppose, you know, I, I'm always pushing the inclusion agenda and, you know, pushing that inclusion, a isn't for particular cohorts of the population and be that inclusion is everybody's business.
Absolutely. Well said. Thank you so much, Patricia, for spending this time with me this afternoon. And for really, you know, sharing your own personal experiences, sharing your research, sharing your projects, sharing even, you know, the work of Gaston with all of us, and for enlightening us on the importance of universal design, Universal Design for Learning and most importantly, that, you know, inclusion is important, and it is everybody's business. Thanks, Patricia.
Thanks Shelli, and thank you for inviting me to do this podcast.
I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts in education, and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.