Good morning. Good afternoon. Good grief. It's another podcast from Jonathan and me. We're still together, we're enjoying each other's company. It's the school of saving.
Hi, and welcome to this podcast, brought to you by the School of safe and humble profits. Our crew consists of really experienced leaders from different nations who work and operate with churches locally and internationally. Our aim is to bring you the most up to date thinking and teaching on how to use prophetic gifting safely and with humility. Let's join our host Ian for another episode of the current series.
Hi, I'm Ian banner from the school of safe and humble profits. Thanks for getting hold of this free podcast. I believe prophetic gifting in the Christian church you've done well is an immensely useful tool to encourage and help everyone grow and become mature in Christ. If it's done well, it's brilliant. But if it's done badly, it can cause huge problems. And I'm obviously a fan of doing it. Well, that's what this podcast and the School of safe and mobile prophets is all about how to use prophetic gifting well, and with safety, for the benefit of the local church body. That's a gig that's airing. We're in a series on emotional resilience. And I'm sharing the platform with my good friend, Jonathan. Hello again, Jonathan. Hello. So we're doing this subject of emotional resilience. Thanks very much for the last podcast was really insightful, by the way, and just want to say, again, if you've got the previous broadcast, and you know, we touched, we touched something with you do get in touch. So that we've got all the links here, you can email me if you particularly want to talk to John, Jonathan, and who doesn't. You know, if you pass it on through the
media system, I'll happily happily sort of respond to Yeah,
so that was that episode. So this one, the next one in the series is a question that I think it in its roots, it's all about the, I think the tension between pastoral and prophetic, I think, and it's this our prophetic people, a bit more emotional than other kinds of leaders. If you look at the sort of Ephesians 411, Apostle, Pastor, teacher evangelist, profit. And I remember once in a meeting a long time ago, you I think we were talking about this issue, this very issue of the tension. And you made a comment, probably 10 years ago, at least, who wants to be quoted from 10 years ago, but you did make a point that you thought prophetic people tended to be more emotional,
I think, you know, God has used his characters to some degree I. It's interesting, because I know some prophetic people would say not that particularly emotional as well. And and I know some pastors who are very emotional, others who are quite who struggle with atolls, the whole thing now I am more on the emotional side, those things going round, as you know, for a number of years now in the west of personality profiling that you can get that looks at your characteristics and the person you are. And, you know, I come out in one of these things, as somebody who's a feeling person now that feeling person is probably a better, a better way. It's an intuitive thing. It's that you you've profit often doesn't just hear the Word of God but feels the Word of God. I
agree with that completely. They feel the words and
yeah, so you get this, this idea in the Old Testament of you know, the Air King in the bones, the inner, the inner yearning, the groaning, that you hear about it, in the New Testament, in the prophetic in the prophetic, and obviously, the language that's used in the prophetic books. I know, also in the Psalms, often which, you know, again, musical people can often be like, is a feeling animal emotion, a sense of what God feels about a situation? God's hurt, God's anger, God's joy, God's God's enthusiasm, God's passion for something? And I think, you know, in the prophetic that that comes through, probably more than many other gifts.
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, this idea, certainly, I know, some young See, just for full disclosure, Jonathan has been around for most of my development as a profit from not the really earliest points, but certainly, you know, these probably last 1520 years. So he remember was like, when I was sort of, I don't know, maybe five, eight years into working out what it was. But I look at people who are young prophets now, and that's what I see. So you'll probably laugh when I make the following comment. But, you know, I've seen young prophetic people who think the right way to display this gifting is to get really almost troubled, almost unable to cope, almost overwhelmed with what God is saying, Yeah, almost must be crying or it's not God kind of thing. And if I'm honest, it's sort of maybe I'm just older and more grumpy than I used to be. But it sort of puts me off a bit now I sort of feel they ought to be able to be in a relationship with God not in a dominance like that, you know?
Yeah, well, there is this, this this verse in the New Testament that the spirit of a prophet being subjected to a prophet, which means that actually, and and also, Paul writes to Timothy about, you know, the Holy Spirit giving us self control, self control. So I think I think, actually, to think you're out of control when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, is quite dangerous, actually, yes. And actually is not a healthy thing to be to happen. I remember many years ago, in our church, I don't know if you were there at the time, there was a man cam, not going to mention who it was, of course, he wasn't. He wasn't a leader of a church. But he came along and he walked to the front. And basically, he felt he had a word from God, and he was sharing this word, then suddenly, halfway through it, he started roaring and falling on the floor, and, and all the rest of it. And we had to take off from there. And I spoke to him afterwards and said, the real danger of what happened here was that actually, people will not remember not remembering the words that you brought. All they're remembering is that you what happened afterwards. And I don't think he was particularly happy with that. But I was trying to be helpful and saying, you know, there is a point where whether we act things out, and sometimes you might want to physically do something, as well as share a word to actually emphasize visually, what you feel God is saying, I can understand that, and perhaps you know better about this than me. But actually, you know, unless people here, again, there's a word I think, is in the profits, unless the trumpet, the trumpet makes a certain sound, who will hear. So actually, it's a bit like, somebody's playing the trumpet, but we don't know what the tune is, or what what the song is, so we can't sing along, and therefore
you're overcome with laughter while they're trying to play the trumpet. Exactly. So
oh, well, what's that, you know, whereas, you know, when the saints go marching, so somebody might actually join in, you know, I hear that I hear what God's saying. So it's really important that there's a clarity, about the prophetic that that supersedes the emotions, or the whatever, which I think come with that word sometimes far as and we shouldn't deny, you know,
really good point. So just think for me. So, you know, a lot of the time, God connects to me through emotions. I mean, you know, as a human being, I've got a real emphasis on passion for God, for sensitive to the Holy Spirit. This kind of thing can cause out with displays, there's nothing wrong with Absolutely. The story I tell people now is, I can get quite emotional. So I'm sitting in a congregation, and I get quite emotional. That's a key that I know God is speaking to me because my emotions start coming up. Actually, in the book out here. God, I talk about one of the ways God speaks to me is if I look at someone and I can feel their emotions, I certainly look at someone and go, Oh, they're deeply troubled. Because I'm feeling deeply troubled. I've worked out I'm not deeply troubled, I'm feeling their emotions. But it is my point, I will, I will get quite emotional. I feel I've got something to share. I will go forward to share it. And then when I get to share it, I am very conscious to dial down the emotions I'm feeling because I don't want people to remember Ian was crying. Yeah. I mean, if if God really was at me on the subject, and I needed to cry for human, I do it. I don't want people to see a show. I want them to get the message. So what if if someone is in our church and sees me do this, I, you know, Ephesians 411 says we have these gifts to build the church up to encourage them to bring them to mature in Christ, not to entertain them. So I will deliberately dial down my emotions. And I will deliberately seek to be relaxed deliberately. Casual almost try and make an image. That's funny. Yeah. Like I had one a while ago that was about the purity of the church. And God communicated me through a picture of everyone in wedding dresses. I don't know if you were there for that one. Yes. So I deliberately made it funny. I deliberately went yeah, Jeffrey, I've seen you in a wedding dress. All of us are in wedding dresses. Really? You know, and I'll let people laugh a bit and you know, to get the point across but actually inside I was quite emotional about purity. Yeah. What I wasn't doing was shaking, screaming, roaring, saying, God says we're not pure, you know, I was, but when I finished that, and then held some ministry for a few minutes, and then went back to my seat, when I got back to the seat. I got very marginal again. I mean, I think he's not bad. Is there anything in there that you think I'm careful? Because I think no, you get young probably to go forward and want to display the emotion,
I found myself crying a lot in church these days.
But as a display of ministry, it's
no, no, I think, I think, as I say, you know, there's an element whereby self control, being clear is very, very important. And I know, you know, we often, it's often what we talked about a larger bit last time, there's a larger office on the mountain, when, when he met God, and there was all the noise beforehand of, you know, the storms and the wind and all the rest of it. And then God spoke with a still small voice, there was a quietness of the phone. After all the noise and all the hubbub that God spoke into God wasn't speaking above the noise of the whatever he there was a demonstration of manifestation waves Exactly. Now, now I've got your attention. Listen to me. And sometimes I think it's a danger for all of us that we try to deliver the Word of God in the middle of a storm, you know, we are the storm, our emotions, our enthusiasm, our shouting and, and being stirred up. And old people get as the storm. They don't get the still small voice. Does that make any
sense? Perfect sense, perfect sense completely correct as well, which is, you know, I believe as prophetic people, we have to be diligent in how we don't just say the word, but how we operate the delivery
of it. And the problem with emotions is that some of those emotions that we project when God comes upon us and God, God, you know, our emotions are not separate from the Spirit of God or from God at work in our lives. You know, we are emotional beings. And God understands that, you know, laughter, crying, being filled with joy, having that enthusiasm. But you know, that if what people are projected, what we project people is the emotion as opposed to the word, we have a bit of a problem, and particularly, when people get aggressive, by that, I mean, quite angry, quite shouty and quite, you know, what people can think is, I'm not caring at the holiness of God. I'm listening to somebody who's shouting at me and telling me off. And that doesn't bring out the best I don't think in in our responses human beings, because it brings a fear or it have people say, Well, that's a holy fear. Well, I mean, yes, there is a holy fear of God, but it's, but we are not. We're not to be, you know, the people who are who have who are shouting. I mean, God is still small voice could say something that could really get right to the heart of who you are as a person. You are that man, as Nathan said
today. To David, you are that man? Yeah, yeah. And I
imagine he didn't say shouting at him and pointing a finger.
Yeah, we always think, you know, our view of the Old Testament prophets is very much a sort of declarative non shell paths. That kind of thing, as you say, you think of Elijah and
well, of course, the ladders, the classic thing and the man of thunder, you know, that you think, Oh, well. But Elijah wasn't always like that anyway, himself, because we see it in those other characters in the character, incident. But many of the prophets were not like that. They spoke, they spoke to people. You know, sometimes, yes. If they're being public, they're shouted a bit, but actually, a lot of the prophets that prophecies they wrote, Jeremiah, right, so long prophecy, the king was so thrilled with Egypt in a fire, you know, but, but essentially, you know, that it's not the power of God does not come from the volume of your voice,
or the emotions or emotions you generate. Yeah. And I think it's, I want to talk about pastors in a bit. But I think it's, I want to say in what you need to do is not say, I can't be emotional. Yeah, the phrase I'd use is transcendent include. Absolutely, I would say, you include the fact that your emotional include what emotions are in there, because the Holy Spirit is emotional. It is true that when the spirit comes, people can just almost by default, become emotional. Any doesn't actually mean the emotion means anything that you know, you see people that who are in a deep problem, you see people cry, who are comfortable and peaceful in life. I'm not a person who believes that if someone overcome by the Spirit cries, that means there's a deep pain there. I just think sometimes emotions take our responses. My son Joshua, when he's younger, when he used to get excited, he uses just jump up and down. There was no reason for it. It's just an overspill. Yeah, absolutely. So there's there's there's almost an include that don't give up don't stop, don't be emotional, but then transcend that emotion to operate. Yeah, to be with other people. As you say, I don't want anyone ever to go. Well, that that word from me and yesterday where he was shaking all the time, and blowing raspberries and things, it was something else, wasn't it and then I said what was it I said, and they go can't remember a word that just remembered us all the time that people you know, And, you know, we've been in meetings where Mel has particularly gone very, very annoyed about people who do that. And I think she's right, frankly, because I think it is show. And yeah,
it doesn't help. Well, it means I'd be slightly worried that if if there isn't this sense of control, the self control part of the whole thing, that actually probably what you're going to get out, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, but I think it's going to be a more muddy message than a clear message. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because, because, because the emotional stuff, almost clouds, the core thing, which is what God wants to say in that situation. And I think we have to be, we have to be, you know, sort of knowing that actually, we are the carriers of what God wants to speak, thinking about the, you know, the day of Pentecost, they all come rolling out having had this massive encounter with the Holy Spirit, of course, speaking in languages, they're not learnt. And they look like they're drunk. And they're, they're, you know, they're, they're praising God, they're worshiping God. But what happens next? There's a prophetic sermon. Yeah. So Peter, who was the been one of these drunk people who is praising God in all these languages suddenly saying up saying, men, we are not drunk, as you suppose with only this is this is that I am now telling you what God God is doing now what He foretold in the show. And, and this this guy here, there's, there's clarity, there's cohesion. There's, there's a, there's a message there that caused many people to come to the Lord Jesus Christ. It wasn't lost in the euphoria, you know, the emotional, my amazement of the presence of God and the power of God having come upon people, he still preaching or prophesying. A sermon saying you will prophesy and when he's talking about prophesized proclaiming God's now word here, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So it didn't get lost in the in the in the drunken sort of, you know, this in the spirit sort of atmosphere. Yeah,
the phrase or nearly heard you say was lost in translation, I think that's a good phrase to use. Because, you know, what were we getting at here is preventing people can be emotional, and to some degree, your model a church style, that if you're emotionally can be more authentic. I think that's very bad.
It's a dangerous thing. I think it's dangerous, because we then start to, there's a danger, you know, and I, I was brought up in a church, where lots of extraordinary things happen, this church you've spoken at, as well, and I've just was there at the weekend, this weekend in North Yorkshire. And I remember as a young person going there. And there being meetings when the presence of God came, and we had extraordinary times of God at work, praying for one another, you know, almost been spot where we couldn't Minister because the presence of God was among as it was very, very powerful. I won't go into all the details of it. But this happened at a youth camp, the following year, that guy who had led or tried to lead and was supposed to be speaking at that, that meeting where everything, the presence of God was just so powerful, decided to try to make it happen again. And it was one of the most artificial things I've been in. You know, come on, we're going to do this again, as if in our own strength, we can whip up, you know, the presence of God like that. And there's a real danger. And leaders to say, I am authenticated by by emotional response to to my ministry, you are not authenticated by any emotional response.
Yes, I remember once you and I many years ago had this joke about that must have gone. Well, people were crying. Remember, we joked about it? Because we know it wasn't really? Yeah. How you how you do these things? Yeah. I mean, it is emotions are good. But I do think this entire thing of control. For example, there was a person we were working with a couple years ago who in the church meetings, I was doing the meetings, and they would get very sort of troubled, they'd be shaking a lot and then want to speak. And you know, I like to operate a style of contribution that is, give it a go let people try and let people do things and let the church way. Yeah, whether it's, and you know, nobody's perfect yet. I certainly am not in a spectrum of before anyone speaks. I have to go until the leader what the words are, yeah. Now there are some churches like that. There's nothing wrong with that. It's an etiquette. But in this particular church, they will come forward, they will give the word and they would be very sort of almost violent about it. And I asked them afterwards, I said, next time you like that, and tell me and I will, I will tell you to wait a while until the point in the meeting, and they said oh, I can't wait I'm in my case, you can't do it. Yeah.
I mean, can't wait. This is the thing that the spirit made me. And I mean, actually, there's a point where that's such a vital point, you're saying, You're not out of control. Or if you are out of control, then the emotions are taking over from the Holy Spirit.
Yeah. And what you're about, and I see this, a lot of I see people give a prophetic word where, and I'm not trying to say I'm judgy, I'm not a sense. The first 30 seconds, we're right on our spirit ones, and then they wander off into themselves.
So the next two minutes you worry about
that, firstly, if Roland famously said, one was principles of ministry, decide what you want to say, say and then shut up.
And I think it's really it's really important that the thing about about ministry, we talked about emotions is that actually, I don't, I'm not, I'm not a medical person, as you know, but I have read about this, the thing is almost an adrenaline that comes with the with them with the ministry, that builds up inside us, that leaves us often feeling flat after a ministry as well. It's, it's a natural kind of morphine actually, that our body produces. And there is a real addictive quality to that, which is, you know, sorry about that I'm getting off. But there's an element whereby that's why people often feel ministry fatigue, afterwards, there's a sense of your body has been on a bit of a high, you've been used by God, you've been speaking, you've been doing things. And afterwards, you can feel quite tired and quite low, particularly you give doing that all the time. But it's because your body starts to crave that kind of thing. It's fixed, almost that fix is really important. This is what we're going to come to at some point that we take time to build that ballast, that, that that solidity into our lives, that that rhythm and ministry that Jesus had of activity, praying for people preaching, teaching, withdrawing, to quiet places, spending time with Father God, going again, you know, and the disciples even times where where's he gone? Where's he gone? It was Jesus left is he's he's needing that space. And it would have saved me a lot of problems in ministry, if I'd had a little bit more time like that. Because some of us who face burnout really serve because we never learnt that rhythm to actually withdraw a bit. We just there was a craving to keep going to keep going to keep going, which in the end is an unhealthy thing for us.
I mean, there's a whole podcast there on the the discipline of recharge. Yeah. Which, and particularly if you're the overall pastor of a church, I mean, the demands on your time, it's almost like a tsunami of need the ministry
of inconvenience. So obvious comes at the wrong time.
Yeah. And this idea that I'll give my own, even if I've got no, but we'll come to that maybe in another point. I want to finish this one with the alternative about prophetic emotions, which is I think, a lot of teachers, pastors, teachers, don't do emotions. Yeah. And they should, they should do some, they should model a little bit more of their passion. And they can be very analytical. They can they can
think of one of your earlier pastors without going into details.
But they, they almost say too much emotion is a bad thing. Yeah, no, emotion is a bad thing.
Terrible. Yeah. Because God has made us emotional beings. And, you know, people who've got coals in the Bible and in life. Jay knows we're emotional before he calls us. Do you know what? He made his emotional, you know, and, and therefore, he never says, I don't think in the Bible, I'd have to check. I've not done a study on this. Don't be emotional. You know, when the prophets crying or when they're rejoicing and, and talking about, you know, the fig tree went up blossom. I will rejoice in the LORD and GOD dancing and over as you're singing songs of joy Zephaniah stuff, you know, there's an element whereby he doesn't, you know, the prophetic word doesn't, doesn't sort of remove any emotion from it. Quite and therefore, you know, when God has called us emotional beings, he doesn't say to us, now stop it. Stop being emotional. He wants to see his children being emotional. Do you know what I mean? If we had a child with both parents, and we never saw an emotion from them, when good or bad time, we'd say there was something wrong here.
Yeah. And just taking that analogy further and thinking about what you just said about the Bible. There's lots of times when the Holy Spirit or an A angel appears in the number of times, the pronouncement start with, don't be afraid, don't be afraid.
Don't have fear, which of course is an emotion. Yeah.
So I guess that's bringing out the point that even those messages from God now fully well, that they're talking to emotional beings, certainly, and they're encouraging them to use good emotions, not bad emotions. Yeah. All part of that. Okay. So
and Jesus himself was emotional Jesus, the shortest verse in the Bible, Jesus wept, Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Well, it was actually Lazarus, his friends
were sorry, forgive me, you.
And actually, that that issue of Jesus being emotional, even though he knew he was going to raise him from the dead with quite because he saw his friends emotion, if you'd been here, this wouldn't have happened. Lazarus was a man that Jesus loved. He saw the pet in this family's life. And he was overcome with emotion to you know, and there's at the time, he talks about the prophets have wept over Jerusalem that, you know, there's, and there was the sense of, Do you not feel God's passion and compassion, Jesus, that phrase that you often hear when he's preached when he's ministering to people here, but Jesus had compassion filled
with compassion or compassion. That's an
emotion. Yes. So our Lord Himself was an emotional human being. When he when he came to earth, He came fully charged with emotions. So if we just rejoice, he laughed, you know, when he came back, so it was he was thrilled. It's overwhelming it you know, it wasn't just Oh, that's nice. He, the word is powerful, you know, all those kinds of emotions that we face Jesus face. But the last thing we want is, is an unemotional preacher. Because we want that we can nowadays and you're the expert on this will end up with it. Are you doing it for us?
Yes. Yes, quite. So if my question at the start, this podcast was our prophetic people more emotional, I think what I've concluded from talking to you is insight they're not, but maybe there's been a perception that Being emotional is a good thing for prophetic people. And not being emotional is a good thing for teachers and pastors. But neither of those is true.
I think that both that was both both rather dangerous assertions to have as a pastor. And you know, I've been a pastor for a number of years, I am a very emotional person. And I think empathy and in that sense of getting alongside people and, and feeling what they're feeling is a vital part of it. I mean, you know, being dispassionate to use that phrase, is just, it's contrary to the Gospel for me.
Quite. Alright, I think we're at the end of our time on this one good episode. Let me pray. For the good. Thank you for the discoveries of this conversation with Jonathan. The emotions are not a bad thing. We need to include them. We need to transcend them to operate prophetic gifting. We need to understand that we're made emotional by God, the number of stories in the Bible where emotions are used, good and bad sometimes as well. Just thank you for the truth that emotions are not a bad thing. But the truth also that modeling a show of emotions for the purpose of pretending authority isn't good at all. We just want to Lord help us. Help us. Help us help us. Amen. Amen.
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