630: with Geoff Hoover of Business of Architecture

10:56AM Apr 17, 2025

Speakers:

Rion Willard

Keywords:

Architecture firm

delegation mistakes

hidden mindset trap

business diagnosis

remote teams

workforce scaling

sales skills

leadership

practice efficiency

financial management

employee retention

decision-making

practice pain

Smart Practice Method

World Teams.

You want to be able to make the same amount of money work, less more joy or happiness.

Hello, architect nation, and welcome back. Ryan Willard here, principal partner at Business of Architecture, want freedom from your firm. Master this one surprising skill. So have you ever felt trapped in the business you built? You started your firm for freedom, yet you're working nights weekends and still not making enough money. Every time you try to delegate something, this falls through the cracks, and you end up fixing it yourself. Sound familiar? Well, on today's episode, you're going to discover the hidden mindset trap that keeps architects stuck in overworked and underpaid, the biggest delegation mistake that causes employees to leave and what to do instead, and the surprising skill that every architect must master. And guess what? It's not designed. In today's episode, I sit down with Jeff Hoover, a master of diagnosis when it comes to architecture firm success with a background of 30 plus years in engineering, marketing and sales, Jeff has scaled teams, doubled revenues, and built multi million dollar businesses as a principal of business, of architecture, he helps firm owners pinpoint hidden inefficiencies, fix broken systems and build thriving practices. Today's episode is sponsored by World teams. One of the top headaches of running an architectural practice is matching work with staffing. What if there was a way to flexibly scale your workforce according to needs? A while ago, we began to hear reports of a company that was helping some of our clients build remote teams. World teams helps small firms build qualified remote teams quickly and easily, saving you the hassle of sorting resumes and interviewing unfit candidates. They work in your time zone, prioritize near native English speakers and offer flexible contracts so you can scale as needed, plus you work directly with your remote team, building trust and cutting costs without sacrificing quality. To download a free guide for building a remote team for a small architectural practice, go to Business of architecture.com. Forward slash world teams. That's one word. Business of architecture.com. Forward slash world teams as a reminder, sponsorship is not an endorsement, and you must do your own due diligence before entering into any business relationships. Get the free remote teams guide by going to Business of architecture.com, forward slash world teams as a reminder, if you haven't already watched the free firm owner master class on the smart practice method. What are you waiting for? Discover How To eliminate overwhelm and slay chaos in your practice, so you can focus on the architecture again, as always, make sure you listen all the way to the end to catch important listener owner bonuses and information. Now if you're ready to break free from the cycle of micro management, burnout and feast or famine, income, this episode is for you. Let's dive in. Jeff, Welcome to the Business of Architecture podcast. How are you, sir? Oh, great. How are you? I'm very well. Well, what a delight to have Jeff Hoover here, who is one of the principals here at Business of Architecture. You are a master in diagnosis, audit and identifying the symptoms of of, of what's really causing an architecture practice to not be as efficient and profitable as it could be. And you've been here, working with myself and and Enoch for over a year now. Is that right? How long you've been up

on a year? Yeah, yeah. Actually, very close. Yes, yeah. So,

so an amazing addition to the team and your, you know, your your breadth of insight, your experience, your ability to be able to kind of really get to the roots of practices, you know, the kind of the real, kind of core pains of what's causing these inefficiencies, has been such an amazing addition to what we do here at Business of Architecture, and sets it up for the kind of entry into the smart practice program where we kind of start to fix these ailments, but none of that can happen without a proper diagnosis, which is what your expertise really is. So why don't we start just by telling us a little bit about your your background, because you've got a really interesting background, you know, kind of communication, in sales, in engineering and and in construction. So you really know the industry from a lots of different perspectives. So why don't we kind of start there, what you know, tell us a little bit about your engineering background, and then how you how you got to be with with this motley

crew, a two minute summation of 56 years,

yeah, basically,

well, I do have a civil engineering background. I have a bachelor's of science out of Long Beach State, and I worked in engineering for about five years. And then. I, I've been, I went into marketing, which I stayed in marketing for approximately 25 years, and 14 years of that, I own my own marketing company, you know, I, I built a, help build a sales, you know, team for a five station Radio Station was able to double them in sales in a couple of years. And then my last position was with a remodel business where I did the same thing sold, and I also built their sales team to $6 million from 3 million. So that's what I seem to be good at like after all these years. You know, number one is understanding you know things about companies to help them become better, okay, and sales and and then also how to develop teams you know behind that, so that they know you know how to handle those type of clientele, too.

And why did you leave engineering. You know,

it wasn't a choice, you know, right? I can remember conversations with my mother saying, you went to school for five and a half years. By the way, five and a half years is no record, you know, there. So just, I'm just saying, Okay, we, we had a little bit of fun in in college. I did extra activities, if you know what I'm saying. But anyways, after five and a half years, you're you're gonna jump to something else. Well, I couldn't control that. I was working as an engineer. They had massive layoffs. I didn't think I was gonna get the great Jeff Hoover laid off. What I mean, so it about crushed me at that time. So I had to make some shifts. I mean, life doesn't always go the way that you thought it was going to go. And sometimes those shifts are a great, a greater shift, you know, as I look back on me, going from a very introverted engineer into now a very extroverted position of sales. I mean, who would have thought that would have lasted in that right? Yeah. So I think there's some innate skills that I have that probably some engineers, you know, are wanting, but they you got to go through a little bit of struggle there to get to that point, you know, so, and I had to take that on the chin and keep on moving.

It's interesting in terms of career development, like and certainly, you know, a lot of professions are quite introverted. They're detail orientated. And any kind of university education really is preparing you for that kind of let you know, it's rare that we get taught communication and leadership and, yeah, and and selling and marketing in any kind of real capacity at university and these professions are very kind of introverted. Yeah,

it's a it's a great point you bring up because you think about it, everyone graduates even you could even graduate with a business degree, but you don't know anything about communications, and you know zero about actually selling. And you hear all this, all that, well, I don't want to be, you know, in sales. You know, who wants to be known as a salesman? It's almost a negative connotation, especially as an engineer, an architect or but let's face it, we're all in sales. If you're married, you're in sales. You know, if you're in a relationship, you're in sales, you know. So owning a business is, you know, quite frankly, you're not going to have much of a business if you don't know how to get clients, you know. So these things are become very important, but are not taught college.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit about, like, how you define sales. Because, you know, selling, the word sales and marketing as well, often in the architectural world, they're dirty, stinky words. Nobody ever wants to associate themselves of being a salesperson. Nobody wants to talk to a sales person. But as you say, actually, the art of selling is it's not really something you can even get away from if you're going to live like a human being with friends or relationships?

Yeah, I think the very if you want to start at the bottom of sales, it's really about telling stories, you know, like, if you get a set of new tires and they were, you know, good price, and you know that they're gonna last, and you're just super, super sweet the way your car drives, you're probably going to tell a few people about it, and those, those few people are going to go buy this product that's selling. But does that make you a salesman? You know, no, it just makes you a person who lives life and understands the importance of telling stories. Now, if you work for that company, then all of that changes, because now you feel like, Oh, my God, I gotta act a certain way. I guess the secret is not to act and just be yourself, right? One thing I've learned is that I'm very proud of what I accomplished in school, you know. So I'm proud of the fact that I got an engineering degree, you know, it's become an asset. And selling isn't selling to me. It's about. Out telling stories and understanding the person that I'm that's right in front of me that makes why do

you why do you think sales gets a bad rap, and certainly in our professions, you know, in architecture and engineering, like, Why? Why? Why are people suspicious of it? Why do people not want to be associated with it.

I think it's an American thing. You know, maybe it is a global thing. But no, in America, everybody's being sold. I mean, you can't walk out your front door. You know, billboards are selling you. People are knocking at your door. If you own a business, they're coming into your business. So there's always this connotations of what do you want? You know, like, as soon as you see someone coming, you can see him a mile away. What do you want? You walk on the car lot. Oh, my goodness, really, I gotta put up with this Yahoo over here. So automatically, before you even do anything or say anything, you've gotta bypass that what's written already in the American mind. That's why a lot of other countries are not so used to it, you know, like the Chinese are, they don't even think about selling, you know, they're just out rocking and rolling. Nobody even thinks about it. They listen to everything, you know. So and maybe that'll change for them. It probably will, but I'm just saying, in America, we're so used to it. We're like, we think we're such pros at dissecting and, oh yeah, this is this where this person is the pre judgment thing. So a person who has to be involved in that has to know that, and they have to find a way to be a real person, not someone with tricky dialog, you know, that's gonna get them into

buying, yeah, and that's, that's the, that's the thing, right? Is that, you know, as a, as a society, we're so used to bad, bad selling, bad examples and people kind of putting the ball over our eyes, or those annoying phone calls that you get from an insurance salesperson trying to see if you've been in a car accident or an injury or something like that. Or, you know, the classic example of the used car salesperson who's trying to trying to GP, there's so many sort of everyday experiences of that that, you know, societally, we get, we kind of put our defenses up at any time we think that we're selling, and we don't want to be associated with it, but it is like the for business owner, it's the it is the thing that you are doing everywhere you're doing it with your clients, to get them to to sign up with you for a contract you're doing it with as an architect, you've got to sell the design ideas all the way through the life cycle of the project. You've got to sell your team members into taking on new ideas, taking on responsibility. You know, you've got to sell ideas to to your close allies, other consultants, etc. It's a, it's a very deep form of human communication,

yeah, all of these skills they taught you in college, right?

We wish, we wish, we wish.

So it's like it's trial by fire, is what it is. They hear this all the time. Well, yeah, I struck out about 50 times, and then I figured it out, and I said, I suppose there's a, you know, not a kinder way of doing that, or not a faster way of doing that, right? And usually the answer is, no, Jeff, there's probably a faster way. I just don't know what it is, right? So the real, and I, I like, I call those people warriors. Why? Because they still got up, right? They got they got blood all over them. They got back up and said, Well, let's go for it again. That was fun. You know, that's a warrior to me, and they're still standing going, Okay, I think I need some help. I'm done being bloodied and bludgeoned. Yeah, you know. So that's the amazing thing about where we come in, is, yeah, we know all those stories. We probably experienced them ourselves, you know. So you got a whole bunch of warriors sitting at this table across from you, and they don't even know it,

yeah, for sure. I want to talk a little bit about a bit more of your background, actually, because another interesting thing about you is you've been a a water an elite athlete, as a water polo player, and also you were a lifeguard. And I think there's some there's relevance here as well, in terms of what you're doing now, in terms of helping architects and being a lifeguard and and I wonder if there are any sort of things that you've learned about being a lifeguard, that you're kind of seeing, you know, as you're interacting with architectural practices, yeah,

well, I tried out for lifeguards four years in a row, and my last year was my last year. I was not going to try out again. I always made the quote, I was always fast enough, but I was just this little puny thing. I think my wrists were about this big. Yeah. And they were worried that I couldn't carry somebody up the beach. I'm like, give it. I can carry someone. I could do it and the set. The second reason why I wouldn't get in there is because I didn't know how to dress in the interview. And what I didn't understand about being a lifeguard, which is, you know, funny that it would be this way, is that you actually had to dress sharp. I didn't know how to dress sharp, so I got killed on my interview. My first impression, I'm walking in with wallabies and corduroys, and I know I'm dating myself, but that wasn't in back then, okay? And I wasn't in like a suit and a tie, you know, and a red tie and a blue suit. I didn't understand, so I had to, I had to get bludgeoned a little. Had I done that, I probably would have made lifeguards okay, but less than 1% make it anyways. You know, just to get in. You know, they're taking probably the top 10% just to get into training. And then they train you in the dead of winter with the highest surf at 52 degrees, so that you're freezing like a Navy SEAL in your little speedos and your dinky little speedos running around the beach trying to win. And then they take the maybe half of that at a training the other half, well, sorry, you just went through hell week, seven days of torture, but you didn't make it. I went through one round of that. I didn't make that qualification. Then I tried out for the last year and made it. So that's my lesson in lifeguards. Of course, there's lots of great stories I can tell you about saving lives, but the real life is, I didn't give up. I didn't give up on that little dream I had. Thank God I didn't. Can you imagine if I would have quit it the third time, I wouldn't even have a story. Otherwise, that's

something. That's amazing. I didn't, I didn't know that the the Yeah, the kind of and it obviously, it makes a lot of sense that the rigor of actually being accepted to become a lifeguard is no joke. There's no joke. Literally, people's lives are in your in your hands, so in your hands. Yeah,

I don't think you necessarily need to be the fastest, but you need to be quick enough. And, I mean, there was a, you know, we used to do these pier jumps off of a couple story high into about three feet of water. Well, I was really good at that. I just never been afraid of heights. I'm really good at jumping and stuff. So they would use me to do depth checks. And I can remember jumping off into, you know, the ocean in about three foot of water, and I landed in my back. My back was on the sand, and I stood up.

I stood up. My back is hurting just hearing

I stood up in the the master the class said, Okay, everybody a little deeper. I'm like, that was my life. Yeah, like, I could have, I could have died if I jumped wrong, you know. So it's, it was very intense. It's not for everybody and, you know, but it's for the one that's, you know, has a little bit of that adrenaline seeking type of attitude, you know, like, I can do this, I want to feel this, you know, so,

and I'm guessing then as well, kind of mentally, there's a lot of skills that you need to either just develop when you're in a life or death situation, and obviously you're coming into somebody who's, you know, if they're out at sea and they've got themselves into trouble, they're probably not going to be in the most calm state, yeah, they're probably going to be in and that's quite a skill In itself, to be able to deal with somebody who's panicking, flailing around, and you have to bring them back to to shore, and also kind of be reassuring at the same time or and also not get injured yourself.

Yeah, it's it's interesting, and it's so relatable to what we do, too. You know, the fact of the matter is, is you train until it becomes like breathing, you know. So even when you're I always thought, because I don't like the sight of blood, you know, for me, I'm fainting even if I see somebody else, you know, like, but what I found is that I was trained so much that when I got into the emergency 911, situation, my brain went on autopilot. And then after I had treated, you know, the victim, that's what we call them, we treated the victims. You know, whatever it was, whatever injury I would have to sit on the beach, and then I was lightheaded and felt like I was gonna throw up. And I always, I was paranoid, you know, as one person who's supposed to save lives. Like, I'm like, Okay, Jeff, are you gonna even be able to do it? Now, there's a secret to this, and this is what we do at Smart practice to train accountability, train accountability, train accountability, train accountability, until it's like breathing, right? Which is why practices are so successful, you know? So they're, they're learning an attribute of success that I've learned as a lifeguard. Don't think about it. Go on autopilot, you know, I didn't understand that at a young age. Now, you know, years later, when I'm assessing what I went through, I'm like, Man, the world is like this. You. Like, that's a, you know, success leaves clues period, right? And it leaves clues in every profession and everything you do. So, was it an asset for me? Yeah, I got to experience that kind of thing, you know, doing that amazing.

So let's talk a little bit about what you do here at Business of Architecture, you know, we have a lot of firms that are wanting to be part of the smart practice. We can't let everybody. Can't do it. And you know, as much as we'd love to, and there needs to be a kind of a process of finding the right kind of firm, and that firm being able to be honest enough to go through a diagnosis, to really look at what the you know, what what's the underlying problem? As you could tell us a little bit about what your you know, how you go about diagnosing symptoms with firms, and what sorts of things you know. What are the kind of surface level irritations that you see that actually have a something much more substantial underneath, under, under them.

Yeah, it's funny. Nobody, nobody wants to admit it, you know. Look, this isn't working out, right? I mean, who wants to tell somebody that they don't know? Hey, look, I don't think this is working out. And it could be me, it could be on me, you know. So I think the first thing is, I want to have some kind of a connection and understanding the person you know right away. Because if there's no connection, it's hard, you know, it's hard to keep moving forward. I think understanding and developing a trust and being kind, you know, with someone who's potentially going to tell you some things that they've never even told anybody. Um, I've been told many times I feel like I'm in therapy, you know, and it's you kind of are, because we're asking some questions here that, quite frankly, we want to find out what's going on. And if we can even help you, I don't think you start making decisions like in anything, until you get to the hurt, or what we call the pain. And so it's the pain where you kind of go, I am done, right? And that exact pain can stop you from owning a practice. It can cause you to say, You know what? I guess I'm not good enough, when the reality is you are. You just might not know exactly what to do. It's not a big thing. So, yeah,

it was interesting as well, because there's, there's so there's so many different sorts of levels of success, right? And, you know, we work with firms who, by a lot of other people's standards, that they they're really successful, they're bringing in decent money, they've got a big team, and they're kind of, they'd be envious. A lot of other people will be envious of these businesses. But there's often, you know, that's one category, and there's often stuff happening there that's not working, and then you've got, on the other end of the scale, kind of much more younger businesses that are in us in startup mode, and are just looking to bring in work so so perhaps you could start to illustrate what, what are some of the different types of pains that you're that you see with firm owners? Yeah, that's

a good question. You know, usually a younger firm is in just starting a practice that the thing that they become consumed with is a couple of different things. Either they're starting to be successful, they're they're getting some projects, but they're starting to wear too many hats, right as they're taking on projects, they actually know what they need to do. They just don't have time to do it right, because now they're doing the admin, they're doing the accounting, they're doing the proposal writing, they're doing the, you know, go out and meet the client, then they're coming back, man, I gotta put this fire out. So before you know it, they're working the weekend after Thanksgiving and wondering, What am I doing here? This is my dream. Like, I'm super passionate about this, but this is all I think about. Is this what life is? Or a younger practice is like, not really understanding they just they don't have any advice anybody talking to them, consulting, saying, Look, you should probably charge this much. Well, I don't think I could get away with that. How do you really know what you can have, you priced out the market. Do you know exactly what the market is calling for? You know? So they could be having all these jobs, like I've seen this before. They have all these jobs, but they're not making any money, yeah, and they're just surviving, okay? The second ones would be the ones that are successful, money is just no object, right? And they're they've succeeded, and they found a way to be profitable. They don't, you know, seem to have an issue with that. But since they built this baby, they've created like a trench for themselves that they can't get out of, right? But. They're They're almost afraid to let go of some things, in fear of this person is not going to do what I told them to do, right and so, and that's an honest fear, because it's happened to them. They've given somebody some power in their company already. Maybe they've been at it for some time, and that person just, you know, screwed it all up. And so now that's like PTSD in their mind. Oh, that's gonna happen again. Nope, I'm gonna cut it off here. I'm not doing this again. Never letting that control go again. You see what I mean. And you get stuck in this mindset. Now, how are you gonna transition that? And in fact, not even transition. Do you ever go on a vacation? Right? It becomes about, how do I put my company on autopilot and trust that it's actually going to perform? You know, could I go to Bally for one full month knowing that I'm a phone call away? I could probably run my company from most most architects. They don't even think that way. They don't think it's possible.

Oh, that's such an interesting one, right? The kind of the fear of delegation, right? And delegation, yeah, it's on the surface of it, intellectually, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, of course, I'm going to delegate my tasks out to other people. In reality, there's this whole emotional world around the fear of letting go of stuff. And as you say, it's a valid fear, because they've done it in the past, and yeah, and sometimes it's with a trusted person in their firm, and they gave them a they gave them responsibility on a business, and then they dropped the ball momentarily. And you know, there was a lawsuit that that arose, or, or the threat of a lawsuit, and that can be enough to really rattle somebody of like, okay, then I've got to make sure that. And then, and then we start seeing that, that fear from the owner then projected down to everyone else in the business. And what, what do you see then, as the impact on the on the employees when the owners doing that? Yeah, that's

a great question. A couple of things. One is, they're never allowed to have any type of creative sense that they already were born with, right? And so what does that create? Well, now you're micromanaged, and the employees thinking I have a brain. Just because I don't do it your way doesn't mean it's not better. It could be better. Actually, the owner doesn't even know that it could be better, right? If, if you could wrap yourself around that. So what is that? What's the impact of that? Employees leave after a period of time, they get tired of it. Because if you got somebody who's a go getter, or somebody who's who knows that, they have much more to bring to the table, and you haven't allowed them to find that now you have a somebody who's thinking about maybe starting a practice of their own, okay? Or they just flat leave. They want to work under different leadership that allows them to be freer, right to be feel like they're they're partners. That when your company is really running itself, you feel like a partner. I don't care if you're in admin, I don't care if you're doing accounting or, you know, a position like myself, you're feeling like, Look, I am a partner in this thing. I'm valuable asset. I'm allowed to have free read, free thought process, all of that. Now that takes a lot, especially from an owner that has PTSD in these areas, that's done the when they're younger, maybe or younger practice. I should say they did that and they got slammed, yeah, right, because maybe they went about it all wrong. Maybe there were a skill set there about delegation, okay, that they don't understand about people. Maybe they don't understand things about leadership and motivating their staff, okay, and about letting go of things. It may not go right. Okay? I had a very successful Uncle, you know, when I was growing up. That's the reason why I got my engineering degree. He owned several practices and now nationwide, very successful. He used to tell me all the time. He said, It's not most people just don't make a decision. Jeff. I said, Well, weren't you scared you'd make the wrong one? He said, Yeah, I go. Did you ever he goes, Yeah. I say about 10% of the time I didn't make a decision correctly. I go, Well, what happened? Oh, man, you don't even want to know the Backdraft of that, right, right? So it wasn't good, but 90% of the time it was awesome, okay, but being able to make a clear, concise decision quickly means that there is a risk of failure. There's always a risk of failure, but you're not going to be able to proceed and get to 90% unless you actually get in the realm of start making those decisions. So that's what's so difficult about owning your own company or practice. Is that That's the risk. The only way to find out sometimes is by taking that risk.

Do you find that that, like a lot of the clients that we have here, that sometimes their initial issue is, is that, like the ability to make a decision quickly can be quite impeded, and there's a lot of analysis and spinning wheels. And I

think none of them think they are until they get into our practice and they start to see things they they think, Man, I'm really good at making decisions. I make them right away. But I think after they see the ways in how we help people make clear decisions very quickly, I think they understand where they were and where they could be, you know, there's a difference of what you think, right? So everybody has an impression of themselves, but they don't really have an impression of how the world sees them. And the world sees you a certain way, and we're about 90% certain of what we see, except you don't even know what that is that the world sees, yeah. So the only way you find out is by being coached in those areas, a coach could say something in one sentence, to change your practice for 10 years. One sentence okay and a corrected practice for 10 years. Is that amazing? That's not something I said. I heard this from someone who was already successful. They said this one sentence, and it changed my practice for 10 years

in terms of symptoms, or, like we were talking earlier about, you know, it's like, you go into the doctor with a head cold, and then, actually, there's, there's other things that are underlying, what are some of the kind of head cold symptoms, and then what can be some of the underlying, yeah, I think more deeper, fundamental issues that you often see, yeah, that's good.

I think the real symptom right up front, especially when you're you're brand new, is you're a little overwhelmed. Okay, okay, right off the bat, I think as you get a more mature practice, you kind of accept the overwhelm. And like you said, I mean, we've talked about this before. You're kind of limping around with a limp, and you just, you think you're supposed to limp. You've been doing it so long. Okay, you know that's how we

all, that's what. We all walk like this, don't we?

That's right. And so, you know, what happens is okay? So the difference being is, with the younger practices is that they, they want to correct that right away. It's almost like this new generation of younger, you know, practices, they're like, I don't want the limp, you know. So right away, they're kind of going into it with they're fairly open now, someone who's got the limp already, well, they don't know what's out there to begin with. So all of a sudden they plug into one of our podcasts, and the truth sets you free. They kind of go, what? There's something else. And they begin to get very intrigued, like I've never heard this before. And so something happens, you know, when you hear the truth, you know, and that, I guess, the old saying is, is it set you free? You know, when you hear the truth, that's what actually happens. You know, I had a person who had a 25 year old practice that say, said, I wish I would have met you guys 25 years ago. Well, we've been in business 10 years. Well, thank God you got here now.

When was the best time to plant a tree? Well, 25 years ago. Five years ago, next time is today, right? Let's, let's talk a little bit about this idea of of truth and like, like, why would a company go through a diagnosis in the first place? Like, what's the point of having such a diagnosis or an audit or will be faced with the truth? Because it sounds scary, yeah,

it does, yeah, yeah, that's a tough one. You know, because everybody's, everybody's different, yeah, I guess it comes down to is in a more broad spectrum, is, how do you want to live? Right? If you want to start attacking that one, you're going to get all kinds of answers. Most people, the way they want to live is they don't want things owning them. Okay? The reason why they started a practice is not to be owned but unfortunately, they created their own prison. Prison meaning not I don't have enough money. Prison, meaning like I'm stuck and I have to go back because I've been doing this for so long, or I don't have anywhere else to turn to. So I think really, the symptoms have to be, look, I want to live a certain way, and I'm not going to give up on that way of living. Now, I need to find a way to get what I want right now, if that means I want weekends off and I want a two week vacation where I don't have to think about my company, well, put it up on the board. Put it in front of you, like, I don't want to work on the weekends, or maybe you want to work three days a week. What's wrong with that? It. Have a college roommate who's a doctor now he works three days a week golf's one of those days good for him, right? So you want to be able to work your way out of the practice, but still make more money, right? That's called working smart, not hard. Anybody can dig a trench for 50 years, and that trench would be, oh, just so nice, but you're still working your butt off for the trench. Okay? You want to be able to make the same amount of money work, less more joy, more happiness. Yeah, so it really comes down to, how do I want to live? How do I want to get up in the morning? How do I want my time spent with my family. How do I want my brain to shut off? Or what do I want it to be thinking about 24/7, is it about your business, or are there other things that are way more valuable than your practice? I don't suppose there is right, absolutely

right. So, so there's, yeah, it's the freedom. It's that that's, that's what the the kind of ultimate intention is. There is, like this process of reflecting or looking into the mirror and kind of ensuring that you understand what the root problems are. That's the beginning point of being able to, that's the beginning point of freedom. Yes, really, that's, that's what this, this whole exercise, is about. And so many practices that will cut will come across they, you know, not willing to look into the mirror or not willing to do a diagnosis and kind of, you know, accept the limping around. That's just the way it is. That's the way that architecture can be. Yeah,

that's as I'm learning. It's tough in the architectural world. I mean, they're brought up that way, you know, you it's you're really an artist you know. And an artist you know has things that that you know, you can really elevate your artist skills being an architect. And there's rewards, there's all kinds of things and accolades. And it doesn't necessarily mean your practice is on autopilot. It doesn't necessarily mean that you get to live the life that you want, okay, but it can. I just, I just think that the way that it's, you know, talked about as an architect, it's like, Man, I shouldn't talk about my success. You know, this is, there's like, the, there's something, you know, in beginning to understand about architects is that, man, I I'm just supposed to be good at what I've what I do as a designer, and not really talk about how I'm performing as a business. Do I make money? And if I do, don't talk about it. Right? It's a bizarre thing, but it's a real thing in the architectural world. It's,

it's a, you know, it often comes from this belief in architecture that if you just do good work, then everything else will fall into place. And doing the good work is the is the bare minimum of running a successful architecture practice. And the firms that are doing really well and who do great work guarantee you. They talk about their work, they market their work, they sell their work. They're good with their teams. They've got their finances sorted out. They're financially literate. They've got, you know, they track their profit, their goal focused. And, you know, that's that the good work is part of that. There's too many firms that do amazing design work that no one's ever heard of, that are kind of flailing from side to side, and they might produce, you know, beautiful, a beautiful building occasionally, but the process of doing it is really painful. And, you know, this got a high turnover of of team members, and it's just, you know, it's, there's, there's, there's other ways. There's other ways.

Yeah, agreed, agreed. Um,

brilliant. So I think for people listening to this, if they want to, you know, speak with you and have a get off the nail call, as we were calling it earlier. Perhaps you can tell us what that what does that mean off the nail? Well, yeah, what does it get off the nail? Cool.

All right, I'll just, I'll tell the story about it, because that's the only way I can tell it, because I heard it. So, you know, I hear something, and then you steal it, and it becomes yours. This has become mine now. So there's a guy sitting on his porch, and he's got his dog there blue, and the dog is just like our neighbor comes up and says, Hey, what's going on with your dog? Man, oh, well, he's sitting on a nail. And neighbor goes, well, why does he get off the nail? And the owner says, Well, I guess it doesn't hurt that bad, you know. So here you are. You may be sitting on a nail. Oh, I hate this about my practice. I hate that. I. You're sitting on this nail, but what are you willing to do about it, to get off that nail, to make it work the way you want to live, right? So that's what we call getting off the nail and working. And you know what the hungriest person gets the most acorns, so to speak. So if you're hungry, you get what you want, right? If you're just going through the motions, most likely, you may get a percentage of what you want. But what do you really want? Because it comes down to your desire and your passion to really go after something and be hungry for it, like real hungry, right? What's the impact if you don't? Yeah, you do the same thing over and over again, immediately a different result. Yeah, right, which is insanity? Like everybody knows, you're just going to go insane. So we want to break that pattern of insanity, right, and get off that mail.

Brilliant. Love it, and it's a perfect place to conclude our conversation there, Jeff. I'll put all the details into the information of this podcast for people who want to jump onto a quick chat with Jeff, a truth call a strategy session. They're very enlightening conversations, and you know that could change the future of your business. So thank you very much for joining me. Oh,

thank you. I appreciate you. Thanks a lot. We'll do we'll do more of these. All right, sounds good,

and that's a wrap. Hey, architect nation, since you listened this far, wanted to tell you about a free, smart practice tool for you, here's a financial truth bot. Most architecture firms are collecting just 60 to 70% of what they could be earning on every project you're doing, the work bearing on the stress, carrying the liability, but leaving a quarter million dollars on the table annually without even knowing it, the revenue capacity planner is your 30 minute financial reality check that shows exactly how much money your firm could and should be making right now. Get this tool 100% free by going to Business of architecture.com. Forward slash capacity. Today's episode is sponsored by World teams. One of the biggest challenges in running an architectural practice is balancing workload and staffing. World teams helps small firms build qualified remote teams quickly and easily, saving you the hassle of sorting resumes and interviewing unfit candidates they work in your time zone, prioritize near native English speakers and offer flexible contracts so you can scale as needed. Plus you work directly with your remote team, building trust and cutting costs without sacrificing quality. Download your free remote teams guide at Business of architecture.com, forward slash world teams. Thank you to our recent listeners who left reviews for the podcast on iTunes. Your reviews help others find this podcast. So the rising tide raises all boats to be acknowledged on the show. Open up the podcast app on your iPhone, search for Business of Architecture, and after clicking on the show, scroll all the way to the bottom to leave a review. Today's episode, The Business of Architecture show is sponsored by Smart practice TM, the world's leading step by step solution for small architectural practice owners that want to structure their existing practice so the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of the architecture. Because you see, it likely isn't your architecture skills that hold you back. It's the business aspects of running a practice, managing projects and people, dealing with clients, contractors, and, of course, with money. So if you're ready to quit being a glorified administrator and get back to architecture again, go to smartpractice method.com to discover the proven simple and easy to implement smart practice method that is revolutionizing firm management for owners and teams. Hey, Ryan Willard here, and I want to thank you for joining us today and remind you that the views expressed on this show by our guests do not represent those of the host, and we make no representation. Promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you conquer the world. Carpe Diem.