Kansas is being left behind by neighboring states in terms of recreational and medicinal. Sales of marijuana illegal here in Prairie Village and statewide due to a prohibition sustained by Republican leaders of the Kansas legislature, the product can be purchased at dispensaries a five minute drive from this Kansas restaurant inside Missouri. And make no mistake, Kansans in the metro area are by state consumers. Residents of Kansas are significant tax revenue contributors to the show me state because of marijuana. If the trend holds there, Missouri will break its 2023 record of 1.3 billion in annual sales of legal marijuana. The closest Kansas has come to legalization was a bill passed in 2021 by the Kansas house that would have created a rigid system of medicinal marijuana sales that never got traction in the Senate. So what to do now? Well, with the Kansas reflector today are two people working to figure that out. Inga selders is a Prairie Village city council member and founder of cannabis Justice Coalition. She joins us to dive into this issue with Barry Grissom, a former US Attorney for Kansas during the Obama administration, who also serves on the coalition's board. Welcome to you both.
No great to be here.
Thank you for joining me here. So Inga perhaps let's start with you. Can you begin to explain why the Kansas legislation, legislature, Kansas in general, has stiffed arm medical and recreational marijuana for so long.
I think it goes back to being a very political thing. We have right across the street from Prairie Village. We have Kansas City, Missouri, the whole state of Missouri over there, where it's completely legal at this point. We also border Colorado, where it is also completely legal, and to the south of us, Oklahoma, where it is medically legal. So I think a lot of what's happening right now with the pushback is completely political. You look at different surveys that have been conducted throughout the state, the Hays Kansas survey just 2023, they had that and it was 67% of Kansas want full recreational cannabis legalized. Yeah,
not even medicinal, which is where Kansas has tried to nibble at the policy. We're talking about recreational marijuana. So Mr. Grissom, you worked as a federal prosecutor, and for decades you've been an attorney in Kansas is part of the issue of reluctance among the law enforcement community, which has a lot of influence in the Capitol, to accept this kind of change.
I think that's absolutely correct. And as I like to tell people when I go up, we spoke, we talk on this issue, I'm very pro law enforcement, and I believe that should there be full recreational legalization that only helps law enforcement, because we now will divert the resources that we believe is unwisely spent on investigation, interdiction, arrest, prosecution and incarceration, when it's really as bad public policy, it's bad expenditure of taxpayer money. I think we all want to be safe in our homes, and I think there's no better way to be safe in our homes, our businesses, schools, houses of worship, than to give more resources to law enforcement, as opposed to draining it away on something that again, if for five minutes away and you're involved in that conduct in Missouri, it's not illegal. And I also add, when you when you think about the portfolio. Someone said, Well, how would you feel about if they were driving up a truckload of marijuana from Mexico? I would say, well, if they were doing that and it was legal, here they were, there's no there's no advantage. There's no economic incentive for organized crime to be involved in that business. So you're literally taking that whole portfolio away from organized crime, which, again, only helps law enforcement. So
you're dinging the black market. If it was legal by passed by the state legislature and a bill signed by the governor, you'd have a whole regulatory system. There'd be a process of testing the product that's being sold in the stores. These stores would be licensed. There'd be background checks all kinds of stuff. Think
of it in terms of alcohol. If you need an alpha, a license to open a liquor store you got, you have to have a background check. You can't be involved in criminal activity. You can't funnel your money to criminals. It's, as you said, it's regulated, it's taxed properly. It's the it's the same thing that when Kansas was quote, dry, people still drank in Kansas, but it was often manufactured somewhere up in the hills. It wasn't safe. It wasn't it, you know. So this way we can at least know that we're keeping it out of the hands of our children, just like alcohol in my house, I keep it up and away. I don't worry about my children or my grandchildren getting involved in that same thing for cannabis. So
yeah, so in good there's frustration that the federal government hasn't acted in a more aggressive manner to make it easy. For states to make this transition, but also, particularly in Kansas, there's a there's a heck of a lot of opposition to it. So that's led actually some cities to consider decriminalization. You were part of that in Prairie Village? Yes,
we were actually the first city in Johnson County to consider decriminalization. Our rationale was Prairie Village directly borders Kansas City, Missouri, so we were seeing a lot of our officers arresting people for just simply crossing the border. We're at the point where, if a dispensary was located on state line, if they took a left hand turn out of the parking lot, they would find themselves in Prairie Village. Yeah,
you can, you can, I think I tried to find a dispensary. How close to Kansas you can get? Seem like, you know, less than a quarter of a mile inside Missouri are dispensaries in the metro area,
if you go down to 100 and third and state line, known as Watts mill, right here, next to Gomers liquor store just just about a softball throw across the parking lot is a dispensary, yeah, and the parking lot is full of Jo and Wyandotte County place.
And those merchants aren't foolish. They're not locating close to the state border with Kansas, just randomly. They're doing it because there's a massive customer base in Kansas, and they're trying to locate themselves sort of in the in the middle of the metro area, with Kansas and Missouri on both sides. No
absolutely here in Johnson County, literally, a third of all Kansans live in this county. So we, a third of Kansans can just drive a few miles down the road to be able to legally access cannabis at this point in time. Should
note that cannabis is now legal for at least medical use in 38 states, four US territories. In the District of Columbia, it's legal for recreational use, I think, in 24 states. And as you mentioned, public polling at the docking Institute at Fort Hays State University indicates about two thirds of Kansans would welcome not only legalization for medicinal purposes, but for recreation as well. So I'll ask you both, if that's true, why would the legislature cling to this just say no to drugs mantra when it comes to pot? Why?
I think, unfortunately, we have a small monopoly that's trying to get their hands into this process to be able to be the ones that are able to benefit the most from this Senate Bill, 555, which was introduced earlier this year, had one of the largest hemp producers writing the bill, bringing that forward. They would have had a five year pilot program where Kansans, we would not be able to move forward at all. We'd be locked in for five years to a completely restrictive bill that would have allowed tinctures, patches, no edibles, no nothing smokeable, and they would have been able to take hold of moving forward in Kansas for a five year period. So
let's just take a minute here to examine that bill, a five year pilot program. I've never heard of such a thing. One year pilot program, two year pilot program, five years. That's a pilot of any kind. And secondly, preordaining what entities are going to control the marketplace seems grossly unfair, not democratic. That's picking winners and losers, and so that bill actually ran off the rails and didn't go anywhere. So alright, so we have legislative obstacles. There's people that have their own economic interests at heart here Missouri got to recreational marijuana sales in 2022 with approval of amendment three, which changed the Missouri Constitution to legalize use for adults 21 and over, Kansas doesn't have the option of initiative or referendum or the process whereby Kansas could collect petition signatures and place issues on a statewide ballot. And don't you think that gives the legislature more power if in Missouri, the people can rise up and overstep the legislature in Kansas, that opportunity doesn't exist and and so the people of Kansas can't just say, Wait a minute. The legislature just happens to be wrong on this issue. We're going to at least have a statewide vote and let the people speak. It's a shame, right in Kansas that we don't have that option. Generally, yes,
yeah. I mean, you look, you look, just look at the history of different states where it's passed. It wasn't done through the legislative process in states until just the past couple years. Colorado was referenda, Oklahoma was referenda, Missouri was referenda. The majority of other states before that was referenda, which obviously says to us, where people are way beyond where our elected officials are, and that's one of the things we've tried to do is not so much educate our officials. We know they're educated. What we're trying to do is educate their constituents to ask them questions before they go to the polls. Where are you on this issue?
So you're trying to get regular Kansas voters to go to a forum and ask the their Republican or Democrat legislator, are they going to be on the ballot? What do you think about
this? Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's the changing dynamic. I think for such a long time, the focus was, well, if we could just sit down with a legislator and talk about all the issues we've discussed up to this point, surely they would side with well reasoned arguments. What we need to do is say we Your seat is being, in effect, quote, threatened because you may lose your race.
So I believe a similar parallel would be the the expansion of Medicaid in Kansas, where the arguments have been made for a decade about why this could provide preventive health care for for, you know, 100,000 plus people, but the political optics of it are such that the Republicans won't vote for it, and Governor Laura Kelly has just thrown up her hands and said, I've made every argument. I've offered numerous proposals. Now I'm just going to create a PAC, and I'm going to start gunning for the legislators who won't vote for so maybe that's a nice segue, and get to you formed the cannabis Justice Coalition this year. I believe. Why did you do that? Just
after not having decriminalization passed in Kansas, that was almost four years ago, I'm sorry, in Prairie Village, and just seeing very little movement happening at the state legislature, seeing it just becoming very partisan when it is a nonpartisan issue, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, they want to see this fully legalized and just it's been held hostage with the political back and forth rhetoric. So I just felt it was very important at this moment in time where every single state legislator is up for reelection this year to go aggressively as possible, get that information out to constituents. Because I believe a lot of people don't understand that this will never go on the ballot for them to vote on, that their vote if they want to vote on this is going to be who they elect right now. So right now, we are trying to provide as much information as possible to the voters. We are trying to reach out also to all the candidates, to educate them if they're willing to listen to us. So there's been a back and forth dialog with that. We have surveys going out. So we're actually physically endorsing people, the different candidates who align with us. So then we can give that information to constituents as well, so they know where their candidates stand.
So part of this will be in terms of the coalition of public awareness campaign like maybe social media ads of the like, but you will talk to legislators if they're open to that conversation, but you're really going directly to the voters. Yep, is the focus? Is this? Is this not been really done before, or is it because other more traditional options have not succeeded
both? Yeah. And again, I think for the longest time, a lot of folks thought, Well, again, it's a question of education. You know, you need to bring somebody in who said, Oh, this is, this is terrible for whatever reason, and take them over to a dispensary in Missouri. Take them over to a grow facility in Missouri and say, Look how many people this employs, you know, at a livable wage with benefits that creates a better tax base. You would think that would be what was necessary when that has been offered. More likely than not, people said, I don't want to go, but if they go, they come back and have a changed mind. It's just getting them on board. So we that was such a frustration that we decided, let's go to their constituents. The constituents have the power here. They need to ask those people in public forums, where are you on cannabis? Are you up for recreation? Are you from adult use? Are you up for having a program in place that people in the past who are involved in non violent crimes, no guns involved, but just cannabis possession, selling? Can you get the records expunged so that they can re enter the workforce, rent an apartment, get a government loan, to go to college, all those kinds of things to take that off, off their records. That's the things you know that is not being by constituents expressed enough to their elected officials. A lot
of these things are occurring in other states, and it really creates a disparity between those states and people who just happen to live in the four walls of Kansas. You know, I just think there's an inequity that's built in in the United States to have such diametrically opposed laws in Missouri, Colorado, Oklahoma, eventually, probably Nebraska, Kansas will be bracketed this way. And it just seems like, in terms of a penalty and a criminal sanction, really onerous in Kansas, I mean, we're going to be an island of punishment, yeah, and again, and
it goes back to, I mean, if. It's a for the average constituent out there. We're all We're all worried about our how much we spend in taxes, and we hope that our taxes are spent wisely. This is a prime example of how your taxes are not being spent wisely. You know this, this idea that you pull somebody coming in from Colorado and I 70, and they have marijuana car, and under civil asset forfeiture, you seize their car, yeah, if they have cash, you seize their cash. That's, that's almost it borderlines on barbaric, first of all, but it's just bad public policy. Yeah, so
Inga, you have a board of directors, and so what sort of cross section are we talking about? It? Do you bring a like a portable bond to all your board meetings? Or is it a different kind of group that has both ideological, political and other other issues?
Yes, our board has a very diverse background. Our this all started. I met Walden Angelos through a connection, through the cannabis Policy Alliance. They work federally. They brought us together, and he believed in our mission. So that is kind of what springboarded all this moving forward to focus on Kansas. We have libertarians on our board. We have Republicans, we have Democrats on our board. So we're very diverse. We come from different backgrounds, and we all share the similar vision of wanting fair and equitable cannabis laws here in Kansas. So
I want to note here that Democratic governor Laura Kelly has repeatedly endorsed medical marijuana reform, and she said Kansas is not ready for recreational marijuana. Do you guys? Is she just being cautious in a political environment like a state house? I mean, the polling would suggest that Kansas is quite ready for recreational marijuana.
Yeah, I believe so. I think she's five years off the mark on that we've moved forward and just seeing the success of Missouri, seeing the success of Colorado, we know that we can absolutely do this in Kansas. Kansans want this. We need to be listening to the constituents of Kansas and follow suit with our neighboring states.
So noted that there was a Senate bill that came up and was debated in the legislature, and it didn't get passed, but it would have really concentrated the marketplace in the hands of a select group of people in Wichita. And I know you're concerned about that legislation. You do? You have a sense that it could surface again?
Yes, there is going to be a hearing coming up in October. The date is to be determined, but it will be in October. It's going to be a two day hearing to discuss medical marijuana moving forward in Kansas. And I am terrified that with the descheduling, rescheduling of cannabis to schedule three, that this bill could possibly come alive again.
And so what you're talking about is the Kansas legislature has interim committees that's in between the legislative sessions in which they focus really concentrate their efforts to look at specific issues. And they've allocated time to look at medical marijuana, I presume, for a couple of days in the state house, with a House and Senate Joint Committee, and they'll make recommendations to the full legislature when they convene in January. So all right, so if you don't like the bill that surfaced last year, if you all had a chance to write a bill, what, what would that landscape look like?
Well, as opposed to recreating the wheel, I think you can look to the states where it has passed, and you can take the best of what they've done and learned from any mistake they've had, you know, I, you know, I look at treating it like alcohol, regulating it like alcohol, and, you know, putting it as a state agency that oversees the licensure of that, making sure there's a regulatory scheme there that keeps it out of the hands of children you can't sell to underage just Like you can't sell alcohol to underage children, cigarettes, exactly, cigarettes and underage children, you know, I think. And what is often missed is that we have to remember we're talking about adult behavior people who want to do something in their own home when they you know, they make that decision at that very few of us sit down with our children in our own homes and say, Hey, would you like a would you like a highball? Would you like an old fashioned No, you don't do that with children under the age of 18. That's just it's ridiculous. I think we've got to get past this Cheech and Chong mentality that still exists and look at the data, and look at the and look at the polling, and look at every place else where this has occurred, and say, what can we learn from them? Ideally, we would like to have something that had a regulatory scheme, that had a licensure process that's that is open to everyone, that is not just in the hands of a few, and also. Has a mechanism there so that folks who have been adversely affected in the past have they have an avenue out through it, a pardoning or a diversion type process to remove that from their record. I think, I think that that's a big social justice part of if you will. I think it's real important,
and I think there's some support for that social justice element, even from conservative type, libertarian types, oh yes, that believe that, you know, do people have to pay for their crimes for their entire lives, or do they pay their debt to society and are capable of moving on when you're making filling out a job application? So,
I mean, when you think about, you know, why do we criminalize any behavior? We criminalize behavior for really two reasons, to protect communities at large and to deter like or similar conduct. Well, as we know from every other state where this is passed, you know, it hasn't crime hasn't risen. We know all these other states that if you, in effect, legalize it, there is no deterrent effect. You don't have to send some young person to hutchson for five or six years because they had three pounds on them when they were crossing into Kansas from Colorado. And we're starting and we're stopped either in Riley or Jerry County, both notorious for stops along those lines and adversely affecting that young person's life for the you know, forever. So there's lots of things we can do. And we think we have some, some solid ideas that at least should be considered by everyone, no matter what your party feels. So
even if, just to explain it better, the you know, the liquor alcohol sales is one of the most heavily regulated businesses in the state of Kansas, so it would resemble that, yes, I presume Yes. So the administration of President Biden has pushed to reschedule marijuana, as you suggested at the federal level. And that is to say they'll, they'll take it from a schedule one drug to a schedule three drug, which says, Ah, there's maybe some medical benefit to this. Oh, it's not the equivalent of cocaine. Yes, we can open up the avenues to research on on marijuana, THC and the like, to see what medicine can do with it. A more open process. There is research on it, but it's just, you know, we can put the research power of the United States behind it, and I think advances could be made. So if that happened, how would that impact the situation in Kansas? If it was rescheduled. I just don't know.
I am honestly afraid that with this rescheduling, it's going to give more teeth for Senate Bill 555, to move forward. I was disappointed that they didn't just fully deschedualize cannabis at this point, just where we are as a society right now, that they still have it. One of our biggest aspects for cannabis Justice Coalition is the criminalization aspect of it, and rescheduling it to a schedule three does nothing for our movement on that.
Okay, so people could still it. So the Fed will say the federal government acts it's rescheduled to a level three drug. People will still be arrested in Kansas,
correct? It really needs to be decent right now. Well, it was setting in a schedule one, which is right next to heroin. Yeah, we all can agree, I think that it is not heroin, right? It should be scheduled to again to how we treat alcohol and again from a state's rights standpoint, that means every state can make their own decision, and at least it would take it out of the hands of the federal government, so you wouldn't have to worry about the United States Attorney's office getting involved, and thereby maybe on their sentencing guidelines or their sentencing grid put you in a position where you might be incarcerated longer, so it needs to be completely descheduled, the same as alcohol at
the federal level. I thought that the federal authority in that was inhibiting the ability of dispensaries and so forth to engage in regular banking activities. Maybe that's been minimized. No,
it hasn't. I mean, if you go to some of the dispensaries just on the other side of state line, they'll take a debit card, but they won't take a credit card, cash, okay, it's and, you know, and every dispensary, if you drive by them, what do you see? By the front door? There is a security guard there because they are involved in a cash business, it is inviting more criminality from someone who might want to go in and knock over a dispensary where, again, if the laws were changed, the banking laws were changed that all that banking, like in any business, could go through the banking system and. And thereby be even be safe. All right, Barry,
you go. Let's I'll play the devil's advocate here. I'm going to throw out some reasons why this kind of reform for medical and recreational marijuana is a terrible idea. So one of the arguments made is that it would, there would be an accompanying social cost to it. I guess it's parallel would be if you have gambling, then people are going to be reckless with gambling and damage them their lives and their financial welfare and their families. So what do we think about social costs of recreational marijuana?
I think we just need to look to our neighboring states and see that that's not a factor at all. I think with legalization, you have more education. You can go into a dispensary and discuss the different strains that are there, what you're the reason you're there, if it's just for recreational enjoyment, if it's an actual ailment, if you have issues sleeping, whatnot, that they can educate you on what strain might be best for you, if you're going to the streets and just whatever you can get on the black market, you don't know what you're getting.
You go into a dispensary and they'll tell you, they'll have the funny name for it, like purple haze or something, and they'll tell you the percentage of THC content in a very detailed manner. You go buy your uncle John, who you buy a couple of joints from John, and you got no idea what he's given you, right? So, yeah, so there's social costs. I guess there's always people that are going to abuse things, but those people are probably abusing drugs in in the first place.
But we have to ask ourselves, like, like, on so many issues, do we want the government to be our to be this overlord telling us what we can and can do? I can't think of anything that is more American, that is more Kansan, than the ability that I can make decisions about myself that affects me more than the government if I want to engage in a certain conduct that's not hurting anyone that comes from a regulatory source that is taxed, and I do it in a safe and reasonable manner. Why should I be allowed to do that? Yeah,
legalization, there's the argument that it will actually escalate the illegal sales and drug use. I don't
know well from from my perspective, formally being a federal prosecutor, we removed that whole portfolio away from organized crime. There are no trucks coming up from marijuana. I mean, for bringing marijuana up from Mexico. I mean, if we're getting cannabis is at a licensed dispensary is growing it in a safe manner that's hiring people. I mean, there's no quote, there's no money in it any longer
to transport it so far, because just look at Colorado, a lot of it's it's grown indoors, year round in Colorado, and basically warehouses that are grow factories and they want a secure environment to grow all that, because there's a lot of valuable product in there. So the natural sounds of a community I'll
give you, I'll give you a perfect example. My wife and I, for years, we love a certain area of Northern California, north of San Francisco, about three hours Mendocino County. Mendocino Humboldt and Trinity used to be the green triangle. That's where all the quote quality cannabis in California came out of when they voted a referendum to legalize it in California, the counties that voted against it, Mendocino Trinity and Humboldt because the black market collapsed, all those people who were growing up in the woods, all those people who were tremors and packagers, they're in effect out of work because now it's legalized. I think that's a really good example. We had these kinds of questions about how it affects us from a societal standpoint. I think it brings it, brings it into the fold where we are now, knowing it's regulated tax, it's handled in a right way, so that you're, as you said, you buy a joint from somebody. You don't know what's there. You don't know whether it's the old Kansas ditch weed, or whether it's something else, or something that might be less laced with something that might be even more harmful. Yeah,
and that's the scariest part. What about the argument that if it's legal, then some 22 year old guy can just go down to the store and get it and sell it to teenagers, so that maybe the youth of Kansas will have actually better, easier access to marijuana.
There's been multiple studies in other states where it's been legalized that teen usage goes way down. In the states where it's legalized, they have a much better educational program. It's the regulations is very securely.
You know why it goes down?
I think more education is, well, you got to
remember, it's not legal to go buy a fifth of vodka as a 22 year old and give it or sell it to a six Correct, correct. So, I mean, it. Be the same thing again, it would be regulated in the fashion where a responsible fashion to keep it out of hands of children. I
guess I would still be illegal to to for somebody to go into the secondary market and sell, Sure, absolutely. All right, here's some of the reasons why maybe be a good idea to have. You know, legal marijuana sales. So you've touched on it. It creates a safer framework, business framework for consumers. You don't have to go into a shady neighborhood to get it. You could just go down to a well lit, secure commercial building on on the main street, all right. So, and you've also touched on this, I think. But there's the argument about, if political representatives value liberty, why in the world would they punish adults for using a plant that grows naturally? Absolutely,
absolutely. I this, this idea that a handful is maybe a whole nother pod, but handful of people in the Kansas legislature that control everything that happens in the Kansas legislature is making these decisions for us. That's as bad as UN American, as about as Kansas, because we are the Free State that can be made. We should have the ability to make these decisions ourselves and the others. Call it the imperfection of the legislative process we have in Kansas really is a thing that's curtailing it. I think if it were brought to the floor and put to an up or down vote without
leadership arm twisting absolutely make them
stay in their sandbox and literally go out and speak what they think their constituents want. I think in passing the heart they
certainly know it. That's why you want to be in leadership, because you can tell other people what to do. I think we talked about the slicing into the black market. You know, there's, there's another element to this, and that is that, I think the statistics bear this out in Kansas and elsewhere, that black individuals are several times more likely to be arrested for cannabis possession than white white folks. That's a reality.
Yeah, that is reality. That's, you know, that's, that's one of the well we referred to. That's one of the social justice aspects of this. Because what folks don't often realize is that when you arrest someone, it has an effect on their family, their community. If they are the primary breadwinner in that circumstance that puts that family at risk. They're now living on government funds, often to survive. It's just, it's it just has a disproportionate impact on certain communities. And again, that's the
nature of the offense.
When I tried to decriminalize here in Prairie Village, I reached out to every single Johnson County city to get their arrest records for the last five years, every single one of them was disproportionate affecting black and brown communities. For the state of Kansas, we're looking at 4.8 times more likely to be arrested if you are black or brown in possession of cannabis, very high. Wow.
I wasn't aware of that. So Inga Barry, do you want to close this out? Do you want to stand before the tenure at the interim legislative committee meeting? What would you tell those legislators about what Kansas needs to do about medicinal and recreational marijuana? Inga, you want to go first, sure
it's time to listen to your constituents. They've been loud and clear about where they stand. It's time to get with the times. We are many years now, forward into this discussion, and it is time to be looking at pure recreational legalization of cannabis in the state of Kansas. Barry allowance,
stand up and have a talk about from a law enforcement perspective, that this is a waste of our taxpayer dollars. If we're really serious about controlling crime in different cities, let our officers focus their energies and their resources on going after the bad guys who break into homes, who physically assault us, those kinds of things, not somebody who is engaged in a process which three ways outside of our state is completely legal. It's, it's, it's bad public policy and it's foolish. I want
to thank our guests today on the Kansas reflector podcast, Inga selders and Barry Grissom, both members of the cannabis Justice Coalition. I'm Tim Carpenter, thanks for listening. Thank.
