What we're saying here. Okay, so you're just, you're talking about having done an empathy circle with your students, I guess some students, and just kind of your experience with it, yeah, yeah.
And the main takeaway was that they, they found that this was a good training ground, and not that they're going to engage in this kind of experience, in all of their interactions, all day, every day. But it kind of it primed them to be thinking more toward active listening. And so I think that that's a really positive takeaway from it.
Oh, great. What and how many students were there? There
were three of them that. So there were four of us total, total this, okay, engaged in it,
yeah, ideally, like the first round or two two, maybe first two rounds. There's little anxiety, like, Oh, am I doing it right? And we try to go at least three rounds. There we had one has three turns to speak. He's into the third round. You know, people have sort of settled into it, and they feel the sense of connection, yeah. And we
went two rounds,
yeah, the third one would everybody. They would have gotten it. That's
when the magic happens. I and I do think that they, they saw the benefit of it by the end of the second round, and they started to give in a little bit to the I feel, heard phraseology that felt a little uncomfortable to them at first. And when we were done, they all said, yeah, that was that was cool. I I generally am thinking about what I'm going to say. And one of them specifically, she said she has ADHD, and the way that she tries to connect with people is by jumping in, oh, I that reminds me of or oh, I've, I've experienced that before, too, and so this helped her to quiet that part of her mind and just focus on being present with the person. So I think that was a really positive thing for her,
great, yeah, harvesting all those insights and documenting them, we have a lot. Yeah, right, yeah, continue that, or do some more. Or I
haven't set up like, formal ways of doing it. I would like to, I'd like to continue it, and maybe have it be, maybe even like a standing weekly thing where people can sign up and come to it. But I'll need to talk to my department and see if there's, if there's space for it, if it makes sense to have it like, be something that they advertise throughout the department. Maybe, because I think it's really valuable.
Yeah, I think for students would be good just to be able to talk about what they're dealing with. I've done there was a class that was for a for Stanford, for high school students who were taking Stanford classes, you know, like online, and they would get together online, and we did empathy circles with them, and it was just like, you know, what's going on for you in your life, and and a lot of them were talking, they were talking about personal things like the troubles with the stress, you know, the stress that they're dealing with, the struggles they're having with their parents and Things like that. So I think it, it can help just relieve stress and anxiety in life, just when you get heard and seen by someone else, just you get to, you know, voice that they did have an in person conference. And I took our empathy tent. There it was, at Stanford, you know, set up the the empathy tent. And the students, you know, came in, we held some empathy circles. And there was the students who had been around for a long time and were friends. It was really into, like, put downs and, you know, kind of one upmanship, and you know, they were kind of making fun of the whole empathy circle process. And, you know, just kind of sort of playing with it. But then we did a circle with students who were new, right, who weren't part of the culture yet, of that group, and they were very open and personable, and it was just very, very different. So anyway, I just see it. Yeah, a lot of potential. Yeah,
gosh. I mean, I, if I had, maybe I will have 20 years that I can just keep studying this. I don't know exactly what my life will look like after grad school, but I would love to continue just studying this qualitatively, just, you know, get people's real, lived experiences, and rather than trying to reduce it down to numbers like just, I love just hearing people's experiences through this. So I've enjoyed reading through, let's see on your website you have a bunch of testimonials. Oh, right, yeah. I really like that, because that's, that's where it gets real for me. Yeah. Where it's this is what actual, real people have experienced with it. So, yeah, with regard to the scientific study of something, I'm much more of a you might call a phenomenologist, like I want to understand the lived experience of the phenomenon itself, rather than reducing it down to measures and numbers and statistics, yeah, that kind of takes the life out of it for me,
me too. I would say I'm that same approach. And I think Rogers was a phenomenologist too. I read somewhere. So this kind of a line of Yeah, a way of being, yeah,
yeah. And it's a wonderful way of looking at the world, I think so You said that there was a presentation I've watched the video of your your first presentation where you were talking about the definitions of empathy, is that I
thought I would show that again, but just go slower and discuss it, so I have it here ready to share, So I can kind of get started with that. Okay, so it's just, you know, for our empathy summits. This was our introduction for the empathy Summit, and I'm going to keep refining this. So it's, you know, defining empathy in the context of the empathy circle. This is an empathy circle that we did at UC Berkeley. We set up on Sproul Plaza. We've set up multiple times and and so that you just you can see some circles in the background. So we've done it with with college students, just out on the, you know, next to our empathy tent. And there's some videos of that too. And
you have multiple facilitators that go, and then you can set up multiple Exactly,
yeah, and they have their T shirts too. So you can see that SLU, who was just in the he's one of the board members, and in the background you see other people, couple others with T shirts, you know, there too. So, yeah, we have facilitators and and let me just go through what I write here this year. So this year, I'm really wanting to focus on the definitions, because for our for our nonprofit, the empathy center, want to really focus on building a movement, like an empathy movement. And I, you know, for and it's really, and I think for that empathy movement, we need, you know, a clear definitions and and want to just kind of be, you know, kind of working on that, maybe write some articles and stuff like that, and, and a book, and so I'm just kind of getting started with that Project. And here it is, yeah, we're building the empathy movement with division to make mutual empathy a primary social and cultural value. And let's see. And then, just in for that, like I'm saying, we need to have a definition of empathy. I don't know if you saw this video here,
if you shared it in your presentation. I mean, this looks familiar, but I don't remember what he said,
Yeah, so this is, you know, when, when Barack Obama was, was going to choose the Supreme Court nominee. He said, Well, I'm going to have them be, you know, competent and intellectually sound, but also have a sense of empathy. And when that was said, I mean, the Conservatives just kind of went crazy about that empathy, like, you know, what is empathy? And this is Senator Jeff Sessions, who was head of the Judiciary Committee at that time, you know, in the Senate. And he was really upset, and I was just actually going to stop the share, because I have to share it with sound. So,
oh, how do you do that? There's a guy you need to learn how to do. There's
a little button. It says, When you go into the share, it says, share with sound and like, not just on the side there. Otherwise you don't, where's our anyway. I don't know our screen, but okay, let's just play it here.
Hopefully Are you still there? I'm still here.
Okay,
anyway, what is empathy? What is empathy? Is this your personal feeling that you are had a tough childhood, or something prejudiced that you have you're Protestant or Catholic, your ethnicity, your race, some biases you brought with you to life and to decor. Is that what an empathy is?
Wow, yeah. And this is like, unintelligible.
Are you able to hear it? Yeah, no, but I just don't understand
what. Getting, I mean, I, I understand where he's coming from, because that is one of the things that we have to consider when we're talking about empathy, is we do bring our biases. But the way he said it just, I don't think he quite got to the point.
So I think he, I mean, he has a point in the sense that the definition is not unclear. It really is right. So it would, because of that unclear, that lack of clarity, it leads to, you know, to this kind of a problem. And I think they should have had a hearing like, you know, they have all these hearings in Congress, you know, let's have a hearing on empathy and have a discussion about it, because what actually happened is, like, the Conservatives were really, you know, against this empathy, because they, they were confusing, I think, with sympathies like, Hey, we're going to there's these victims, and the victims going to get preferential treatment. Yeah, and it's not how I'm defining empathy. And I think that when, when conservatives understand it means that everyone just gets heard and kind of has a seat at the table. And, you know, we try to work out our differences that usually they're, they're very supportive of it. So, yeah,
that's so funny that it's, it's such a divisive word, because I know we've talked about this ad nauseam, but you and I have a shared understanding of what it is, and it's something very different from what he's Talking about. Oh, you muted yourself.
There you are.
Not seeing you when I share this.
All right, so here we are. So okay, so that's the and actually something else that there was a a a like, whenever, whenever a nominee came up. For the for the there's different levels of just, you know, the courts. You know, there's a Supreme Court, then there's district courts. And for everyone that's a nominee, they have to fill out like, a four page questionnaire. Have you now, or have you ever empathized? It's like really crazy.
And what is that? What do they mean by that they're
wanting they actually ask nominees if the if they believe in this value of empathy.
Yeah, but I guess my question is, what version of empathy are they? That's
it. It's it's unclear. It's just a term empathy. And again, we have that that they're, I think they're confusing it with sympathy, feeling sorry for people, and yeah, and it's leading to this other confusion about empathy too, right? That's against empathy book, the suicidal empathy book that's coming out, this toxic empathy, how progressives exploit Christian compassion, that one's, like, really popular. I mean, if you look on, you know, I'm in the Christian community. I mean, it's got something, you know, couple several 100 reviews, you know, on Amazon. And I've, I've all of them, you know, I've emailed them, said, Hey, would you do a recorded interview? And, you know, they I don't have time for it, so I keep trying.
At some point we'll get them. Yeah,
and that doesn't stop there. Here's another one. There's a, I haven't heard that one. It's coming out. And the Joe Wrigley. If you do a search on Joe Wrigley, you'll he had about three or four years ago. He wrote a lot of articles, you know, against empathy. And I tried to, you know, talk to him too. He wouldn't talk to me so, but I will keep trying,
because you're pro empathy, and he doesn't
want to be. So, yeah, it's, I think, yeah, because I think so, because in pro empathy, you know, sort of an advocate for a culture of empathy, and the criticisms that they have are, actually, I agree with the criticisms, but I tend to, I see it as actually, what they're criticizing is a lack of empathy. So I'm hopeful that, you know, by dialoguing and creating a clear understanding that can kind of win them over. The critics and I have talked to Fritz bright how who did the dark side of empathy, and there's an interview out there, yeah, with him.
And what's his premise?
I can't even remember. He's probably about. Five years ago that I interviewed him, but he's, yeah, if on my website I can, I'd have to go through again to remember all of his all of his criticisms. One is, I think that empathy is, is just directed toward, you know, if you, if you have, you know, two people in a conflict, you're going to empathize with this, with your, your side, right? Versus that, you have this holistic empathy, and it's a matter of creating a space where all the sides listen to each other,
yeah, yeah. It's like Paul Bloom says, where it's like a spotlight, yeah, where you can only have your spotlight on one person or the other. It's possible to empathize with both sides of something,
yeah, and I'll send you after this. There is an interview, and I had, you know, it's, I think it's all documented. So anyway, that's the current definitions problematic. You know, the current definition, it's not easy to understand. They're obviously not clear. You know, the way that the definitions are being this, you know, articulated. You can just see there's all these, you know, people who don't understand it, and they're against empathy. And I think it's because of the definitional problem, and also it can be rather abstract, and, you know, academic, and especially like these terms affective and cognitive empathy, and, yeah, so I think that, yeah, there's a I'm just thinking about the phenomenology part that I think that wouldn't even use cognitive and affective empathy. But anyway, that's another topic well.
And the thing that I take away from that is, if we have all of these esoteric terms, I mean, it helps us academically understand it, but how is it actually benefiting people, like, if we're not using our academic understanding to actually make people's lives better, then we're really wasting our time talking something that should be helping make the world a better place.
Exactly. That's what I had there. We need a clear and practical definition, yeah, and that's why I'm saying that that to define empathy in the context of the empathy circle, the empathy circle itself is just very functional, very practical. You know, there's just a lot of benefits you get right off the bat. So to take this, you know, definition of the abstract and make it concrete will also make it practical, yeah. So as we strengthen the empathy circle and the understanding around the empathy circle, we're sort of strengthening sort of the practicality of it, of you know, how to actually use it for, you know, personal benefit and benefit, relational benefit. And you know, you can experience the definition you can map. And the other thing I want to do is map out the definition. So having the basic definition of the empathy circle that we can map the different definitions on it. So that's why I kind of wanted to show this definition. And then we go through your presentation, you know, how does it map on to the empathy circle. So I always have that as a touchstone. Yeah,
I like that so much.
So the basic, you know, framework, I'm kind of calling it holistic empathy, and it's a definition model, and these are the parts, and this is something the basic empathy, self empathy, imaginative empathy and holistic empathy. So this is kind of the the terms I'm using in terms of basic empathy. Well, I'll talk more about that, but I'm not totally happy with the term, but trying to differentiate the different parts of a holistic empathy, you know, framework. So
you're saying that these first three are parts of the holistic empathy, yeah. Okay.
And so this is the empathy circle, you know, just assuming everyone knows how the empathy circle works. There's the speaker, the person who's speaking, then there's the active listener. And as the active listener, it's sort of a face to face basic empathy. I'm listening to the person you know, I'm sensing into their experience. And, you know, all this is really, you know, Carl Rogers, if you look at his work, he really kind of laid out the this experience, and that's what he did in his therapeutic, you know, is just, just listen to the person use action. Active listening is a way of, sort of deepening that basic empathy. And, you know, we have basic we have this basic empathy that's just part of human nature. As I see it is we. It's just that we can, they can be blocked. And that's actually something I want to go into at another point, is those roadblocks. I've got a chance to look at those, but going into some of those roadblocks. So, so that's the basic empathy in the empathy circle, when the active listener is listening to the speaker their base, it's this basic empathy that they're, they're, they're doing, and I'm, I'm not. I've just been calling it that empathy, but there's other layers of empathy, so I'm not differentiate. I've been just starting to use the word basic empathy, but not totally happy with that. Anyway. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
So in terms of basic empathy. I mean, there are so many different ways that people construe what that would be, but you're talking about active listening
even more so it's it's active listening helps to strengthen the basic empathy. It supports it. It's it's not basic active listening is not I mean, even if we didn't, even if I didn't reflect back what the speaker is saying, it's sort of that quality of attention that I'm giving to the speaker, the sense of presence. And in fact, that's what the next slide is here is sort of describing what that is so and again, basically, empathy is the listeners effort to hear the other person deeply, accurately and non judgmentally. Empathy involves, he's saying it involves skillful, reflective listening that amp, and that's, I think it's just sort of a crutch, basically, that helps, you know, clarifies and amplifies the person's own experiencing and meaning without imposing the listener's own material. So that's kind of Rogers kind of describing that experience. And he also goes on and says, an empathic way of being with another person has several facets. It means entering the private perceptual world of the other and becoming thoroughly at home in it. It involves sensitive moment by moment to the being sensitive moment by moment, to the changing felt meanings which flow in this other person, to the fear, rage, tenderness or confusion or whatever he or she is experiencing. So that's the that quality, and you know, that that can be gotten gone into, you know, into much more depth. We're just trying to kind of give the give, kind of a rough sketch of the framework. Any thoughts.
I mean, I have a million thoughts, but I want to, I want to see where you're going with this, if like, the the other levels of empathy that you're talking about, answer the questions that
I Okay, alright, so then the next level, the next aspect, or facet of holistic empathy, is self empathy that you know the speaker is sensing with their speaking, they're sensing into their own experience. They're feeling into sensing into their own sense of self and and like when you were, you know I, you had listened to me, and then it was your turn to speak. You're sensing into yourself and saying, Oh, nothing is coming up, right? I have sort of a blank so you're sort of emphasizing you are empathizing self empathy with your own felt experience of being in a state of blankness, and which is, you know, a quality, and that would be the self empathy. Can
I ask a question about that anytime? Just jump in, tapping onto it with my own experience with feeling that emptiness. Would you say that part of self empathy is also verbalizing that like when I said I feel empty, that is, it seems like that's that's part of that self empathy process.
I would say that it actually helps with self empathy. It's like the self empathy was you just sensing into it. It was even like pre verbal, right? You're that that was a self empathy, but you can strengthen that self empathy can be deepened, strengthened, and by sharing that and getting an empathic reflection, it actually helps you to go deeper in that experience of self empathy. So being empathized with being heard by someone else, actually strengthens deepens your sense of self empathy. And Rogers, you know, mentions that too. He says, by being listening. To by someone who understands makes it possible for the person to listen more accurately to themselves with greater empathy towards their own visceral experiencing their own vaguely felt meaning. So he didn't call it self empathy, but, you know, he was saying, Oh, you become your own therapist at one point. But you know, he was kind of hinting at it, and, you know, pointing to it, but he didn't use the word self empathy there.
Yeah, and I definitely, I agree with that so deeply, where there are times when somebody reflects back what you say, and I've been on both sides of that, where I've been the one reflecting to somebody, and somebody and somebody else has been reflecting to me. And you see that it helps you to understand yourself better, yeah, it helps you to be like, Oh, yeah. I hadn't really, I hadn't put that those thoughts into into words yet, and so it I hadn't really solidified how I felt about something. Yeah, so I think that's a really important part
of this, that's and yeah, and Rogers mentions too, that people who are in, you know, emotional turmoil or their identity is, you know, have troubling with issues with their sense of identity that by being heard by someone, it strengthens your sense of identity. Because know you're you might be sort of alienated, detached with you know what's going on, but when you're heard by others, it helps create a sense of of self for you. And he's saying that, you know for people to really change, he thinks that they pretty much need others to see them. And he has he's, you know, his some of his papers, he talks about others. You know, academics who have talked about that sense of self is developed, you know, by being seen by others. And he says for himself, what he finds is helpful is like when you have for him, if he has a vague idea, and I sense that have that too, like I'm sort of at the edge of my awareness, there's some tentative idea. But by being able to bring that to consciousness and share it with someone, it starts helping that idea to grow and maybe even turn into, you know, fully formed idea and in into action too. And so that would be another part of the, you know, self, self empathy, and how being empathized with, like, a lot of times I hear people say, Oh, you got to think of yourself first. But it's, it's actually, if you're doing that in a detached way, you can get sort of alienated. And I think that you know, being in an empathy circle where you're heard by other people, not just one other person, but at least you know, three or four others are hearing you, it's actually helps to ground you and connect with with you yourself, you know, and to see yourself from from different points of view, being reflected by others. So I think that's another aspect of the empathy circle that helps your self empathy, one being heard by someone actively, but then also being heard by multiple people as well. And
one thing that I think is so great about it, is it? Is it isn't just one person who gets to experience that. It's each person as they share, yeah, with that they get to experience that self empathy as well. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. It has mutual everybody's benefiting from it, yeah. So the other level is, I would call that imaginative empathy. And this is not really used commonly, you know, this term, and this is kind of what if you see cognitive empathy, it cognitive empathy. I see it just defined in different ways. But is, you know, as understanding. But I also hear cognitive empathy being defined as imagining yourself in someone else's situation. And that's like another level that you know, that's you know, in, and I think that relates into the self other distinction you know is that you know, who's a child is like, you know, two years old, or what, whatever, they can start imagining themselves and others people's situation. And it's a different phenomenon than just the direct, direct empathy. And this is where we can actually step into someone else's shoes and imagine ourselves in their situation. And this is different than it's based on the, you know, the basic empathy, but it's a next level, and it's also developmentally a next level. And I like the word imaginative empathy much more than cognitive empathy, because it taps into. The imaginative, creative quality. Yeah, so and I'll and
so if I, if I understand that correctly, it would be you are feeling yourself like what I would do and say if I were in that situation. So you're still maintaining your sense of self, but imagining what it would be like to be that person, is that, right?
Yeah, and there's two different there's two different forms of that. There's, and I can't remember the terms. There's one, what would I be like if I was in your situation, and the other is like, what would I be experiencing if I was in your situ, if I was you in your situation? So those are two different sort of imaginative roles, but they're still imaginative. You're still sort of imagining, yeah, and
I don't know if I mentioned this last week because, because I've been thinking about it a lot the last week, but I think that you have to start with that kind of self focused version of it before you can make the jump to that, that deeper level of imagining what it would be like to be you in your situation, like as I teach my kids about it, they can't, they can't wrap their brains around what would it be like to be you in your situation, because I don't know what it's like to be you and your situation. And so we start with, how would you feel in that situation? And so it seems like that's even within imaginative empathy, there are developmental right within that. Yeah, because I have a five year old who really, she really struggles with empathy. Her twin sister is overly empathic sometimes, you know, she just, she takes on, like viscerally, other people's emotions and things like that. But then the unemphatic twin just, it's just very opaque for her. Rather than talking about, how do you think she feels for her? I have to start with, how would you feel, and that, like, helps her to connect with her lived experience. And so I think that that's, that's going to be something I want to to dive into deeper as well. Yeah, is understanding those developmental stages?
Yeah, that's real interesting kind of aspect. Well, there's another aspect of imaginative empathy. Is that we can feel into any role and perspective. And you know, Meryl Streep talks about this, right? It's like, is, I thought a lot about the power of empathy in my work. It's the current, the current that connects me in my actual pulse of fictional character in a made up story allows me to feel, pretend feeling sorrows and imagined pain. So she steps into the role of, you know, Margaret Thatcher, or, you know, Julia Child, like, you know, in a in a big way, right? I mean, she just totally embodies that and and imagines herself being that person and acting. And she, you know, does probably all kinds of studies about the person's quirks and and personality that really, you know, take on that person, that personality so, and that's different than, you know, then again, the the basic empathy, and this is kind of like an unlimited so let's imagine, like, here's imaginative empathy. Like, now let's have an empathy circle, right with the person taking on all the different roles. So it's two layers of empathy where you know the speaker, Julia Child could be speaking to the imagine to Meryl Streep, the actor you know, as Margaret Thatcher, and be actively listening. And these are all four different characters that she has. So this aspect of imagination is, like huge, how you can kind of take on roles. And, you know, we do that in the empathy circle facilitator training, we right, there's four sessions, but we had a fifth session to introduce conflict mediation, or maybe I'll talk about that later, but I think it's later in the presentation. So anyway, here's one role. So you can just kind of, you know, think about these multiple layers of but you can also imagine yourself being an animal, right? You can have an empathy circle, like, oh, you're a tiger, you're a, you know, a cow, you know, you're a, you know, whatever, yeah, koala, koala, yeah. And then you can speak, you know, from those positions, and you can do it at one layer, and then the second layer, you can actually do an active listening. So you're actually doing kind of two levels of empathy. And again, you know, you can imagine yourself being a, you know, fruit. So anything you kind of imagine yourself being yourself. Off in the future. I think that's like imaginative empathy as well. So it's this whole aspect of imagination that I see it a lot in the literature, you know, like saying that, Oh, in, you know, cognitive empathy, you're imagining yourself in some role. But I think calling it imaginative empathy is kind of sexier, you know, it's like people would be more interested in imaginative empathy than, you know, calling it cognitive empathy.
I can see this being like a fun improv game for, like, a theater class. My daughter's really involved in theater, and I was when I was in junior high and high school, and we would do games similar to this, where you're taking on different roles. And so I love the idea of having over an empathy circle, because it just it. I think it would expand an actor's ability to feel into each one of those different roles.
Yeah, I love to see that too. So,
and there is research that I've read that says that people who are involved in theater are more empathetic, which, I mean, it makes sense when you see people like Meryl Streep, who can become so fully become another person. That's like on steroids. It's empathy.
Yeah, that's why I chose her. She's so good at it. She really is. Yeah, and the other is, I was mentioning, yeah, I didn't have the slide here, but in a in our workshop, the fifth session, we're showing how empathy circle can be used in conflict mediation. So we created an imaginative situation where there's four siblings, and the parent just passed away, the last parent passed away, and each of the siblings has a reason for why they feel that they should get the inheritance. And then they argue about it, but they use empathic listening to discuss it, and it kind of introduces how this, how the empathy circle can be used for conflict mediation. It also sort of introduces the imaginative empathy in, you know, how you can use imaginative empathy. And there's also a process called restorative circles that uses a similar process where, if someone has an issue, like in their family, and you know, the family members won't take part in an empathy circle, you can have an empathy circle with people who are familiar with it, and they take on the role of your family members or whoever you're in conflict with, and You explain to them, you know, this is a father. He's very introverted and domineering. This is a mother, very passive or something, and and then you you can actually role play. It's amazing how accurate it can sometimes be and how transformative it can be.
So this is a different practice. I need to look into it, because I'm not familiar with the practice.
We don't do it much, you know, because we've been focusing just on the basics. But this is something that was sort of like a next level, and we've done a little bit of it, and I have experience, but I haven't focused so much on the on the imaginative empathy part, just because there's so much work just doing the first first part, but it's a lot of fun. The imagination part is just like all that acting and lot of creativity. Okay, so then the holistic empathy. So, so the which is the, you know, quality of empathy in the relationship. So everyone sensing into, you know, you walk into a room, and you can feel the energy of the room, right? If there's a group of people there, and you can feel it is, there's like an openness and inviting this. Or you can feel everyone's into their own, own world, and there's like a hostility or something. So it's the holistic empathy is, is kind of all the different aspects of empathy together, sensing into what is the quality of the relationship, just not listening to, you know, each person individually, but sensing into the into the whole. And it's made up of those different parts, you know, of the basic empathy of the self empathy. So everyone has self empathy, sensing it to themselves. People are all listening to each other, and what is the quality of the group. So that's kind of what
I'm coming to mind. I'm just going to write this down. This seems like a meta level of thinking about the interaction, rather than it just being me or just me like me, self empathizing, or me empathizing with you. One person this is taking it up to a higher level and noticing the feeling that's in the group. Yeah, it's I want to I want. I'll do some research on that. I like that a lot. So it's,
it's a mutual empathy, it's, you know, reciprocal empathy, all these kind of terms for that, and there's not a lot that I've seen, you know about the mutual empathy. There's a little bit about that holistic. I'm just, you know, coming with these terms. And I'm not, you know, I'm I so far, there's also a holistic with an H and A w2 so I'm kind of, I think it's the actual with the W holistic, because it's the whole.
I want to share my presentation video with you, maybe you can watch on your own time. I'm trying to think, if they actually like where they saved it, I'll have to find it. And then let me
just get to this real query, a couple slides, and we can open it up. So, yeah, so the holistic empathy, so it's a way of sensing into the it's, I think there's the empathy is, is there's a larger, you know, it's the sensing into so basic empathy, you know, you're sensing into someone else's experience, of more of a a fullness, a depth of sensing using your whole sort of body, body awareness, The Self empathy is sensing into our own experience, imaginative empathy, you know, imagining ourselves into an experience, and then the holistic sensing into the communities experience, sort of a mutual empathy. And I think the at what I had that for? That's just a holistic again, just another picture of holistic empathy and other definitions. So what I'm looking at is to have this basic framework to ground the definitions you hear into the empathy circle. So, you know, I had mentioned that with the Scientific American article when Elizabeth, who wrote that, that's what I sort of, you know, had kind of advised her for because when she was going talking to all these academics, you know, bring it back into the empathy circle. So you can show what are they talking about in the context of the empathy circle, and then also to ground the criticisms in the empathy circle. So I can kind of role play this criticisms that people are having in the empathy circle, and kind of demonstrate, you know, where we might not be understanding the terms the same way. And in the empathy circle, where and how do you see it playing out? So that, anyway, that was
the project that's so great. And so this, you're continuing to compile different people's definitions. And I remember, you do have a, like a almost a spreadsheet, like a table of different definitions and how they map on to different parts
of is that right? Yeah. So what I'll do is, you know, I want to keep building on this presentation, and then go over to map out to take all those different definitions that, yeah, those tables, I have a whole website that's just nothing but, like, definitions that people have, and be able to know
I'm looking at it right now because I didn't close it down last week after you shared it with me. The link
you just want to see if that's the same one,
let's See I
Okay, yeah, that's One. There's another site. I
it. I'm looking at your Edwin's basic definition. I and you have a an image with the empathy wheel?
Yeah, I got so many. I got stuff off. It's like, that was an old model, the wheel of empathy. Oh, here it is. Uh.
One second. This is another that was, you know, way back when I kind of went through, that's a lit review, so I'd kind of gone through, researched a bunch of papers that was around training, but there's definitions in there somewhere.
Oh, okay, this is the same site that has the
blocks. Yeah, that's definitely, there was definitions there somewhere. I had have to look through, I have to kind of, kind of organize all this stuff, which I'm in the process of doing. So cool.
It's so nice to see somebody who's as nerdy as I am. Why'd you just finish you? I love it so much. Well, it
seems like everybody does that when they get when they're really working on empathy, they create their spreadsheet. Anita did that. You know, I remember, she sent me her spreadsheet. And every I think you have a spreadsheet too. So I want to be able to take those spreadsheets and then map them onto the empathy circle so I can, you know, kind of ground it in, in that experience, in that experience, yeah,
because it can, it can feel a little ungrounded the way that we talk about it. It's just kind of like, what does this even feel like or look like when you experience it? So, but then mapping it over the the empathy circle for people who have experienced it, then they can say, oh, that's what you mean by that definition of it. Yeah. So I think that's a really great project.
That's what I hope you can do kind of in our discussions too. You know, can always sort of try to be mapping it back, because you had a whole list of of definitions, you know, that you were referring to and and, you know, how do those map onto an empathy circle?
Yeah, and I want to go through and see how they even map across the definitions that you have listed. Um, because that, I think that would be helpful to just compare our notes.
So what's your thoughts in general, about the the framework you know I feel, I do think that that is unique in terms of the empathy circle, as for the definitions that nobody else is sort of taking that approach. It tends to be more open philosophical, you know, and try to bring it into this scope, yeah,
no, I have actually, I'm going to share a personal experience, just to show why I think what you're doing is valuable. Because I've I've always been so focused on actually hands on, like being in it with people, that as I've been getting into academia, I have been losing that, and I'm finding that it's so ironic, because I'm studying empathy on an academic level, and I feel like it's making me become less empathetic in my daily interactions with people, because I'm getting so cerebral about it that I'm like, I don't see I don't know if it's that. I don't remember how to start a conversation about normal things with people. Because I can, I can get into deep conversations about deep topics really quickly with people, if they want to go there with me. But for people who are not thinking about these same exact topics on a deep level, like I am and like you are, I sometimes find that we don't have much in common. Yeah. And so it's, it's it's silly. And so I think bringing it back to the practical, bringing it out of the ivory tower, and bringing it back to like, how do you apply this in real life, with real interactions with people? That's the whole point in the first place. Otherwise, why study it?
Yeah. So I'm hearing there's a practical aspect to this, that you like the practicality aspect of doing things, and as you study empathy, you're getting more into a cerebral, academic sort of a space, and that maybe a bit more detached from that actual experiential, practical aspect, and that you're appreciating this, because it kind of brings it back to that practicality. And there's a lot of experience, it's affecting how you relate to people getting so into the abstract.
Yeah, isn't that funny? Yeah, because I got into. It because I see the value, the intrinsic value of the practical, but in the process, I'm losing the practical. I think it would also be beneficial to see how this maps in other frameworks as well, maybe looking at the non violent communication like they have ways that they walk through a conflict resolution setting and and just see what the commonalities are between these different approaches that are very hands on and practical. That might be a different
Yeah, two things. One is NBC is based on Rogers word, Oh, yeah. So same, grandpa, so it's pretty much, I think the core is the same. The second is about that. I think the one thing that really attracts me about Rogers is he did the scientific and the experiential. So that quality you're talking about getting so abstract and away from the experiential, I think he did a pretty good job of merging the two. So he would kind of be doing, you know, in his counseling, doing the the experience of, you know, listening to his clients, but then he would talk about the landscape of the experience of it, and, you know, have his theories, but it has a different feel. It his his work, to me, at least, doesn't feel like very difficult and abstract. So, yeah, I think it can be merged, right? Yeah, having the two can be merged without getting into that feeling of the abstract attached, you know, purely cerebral. So that's just one response to
Yeah. And the thing, the thing about the cerebral stuff is, I do think that there is so much value in the philosophies behind it, especially things like, what, what is a human being? I mean, that's, that's just kind of at the core of philosophy. And you have to wonder, like, if you're not getting deep into philosophy, you wonder, why are we even talking about that? But when you bring it back to the practical, if you realize that the way that I am viewing this person as an object that I can either use or who is getting in my way. That means that I am no longer empathizing with them as an equally human, human being as I am, and so I'm reducing them down to something that is like sub human. And I think that that's really important. So taking it up to the cerebral level is important so we can challenge those underlying philosophical assumptions that we have, but then we have to figure out how to anchor it back to the earth. Actually, that's something that I feel like with this paper that I'm working on, where we're going so meta. We're going so philosophical. It I struggle with that, because that takes me away from my real ability to connect with people. Because if I'm using words like dots, dot sign that people don't use in their daily lives, then I I'm I'm not actually connecting with them, and I'm not empathizing with where they are. And so either I have to bring them like I need to meet them where they are and bring them with me so they can see it, or I need to change the phraseology like I need to change the way I talk about it, so that I'm still maintaining the same philosophy, but using words that everyday people can understand. Yeah, I think that's super important.
Yeah, so it's really you. It sounds like you're wanting to merge the two and be able to relate to people and not get so abstract and and be able to be, be practical and connect with with people understanding it, yeah?
And so yeah, that's just a really long way of saying, I think it's a great project, that you're okay,
yeah, because it's doing what it is that you're talking about it, that's what I'm trying to do, too, because I don't want to get all abstract they just become an intellectual exercise. It's, you know, that practicality and the experience too. So in terms of NVC, I think at NVC pretty much maps onto the empathy circle. You know, what NBC does is it's putting a more focus on naming the feelings you know, like when you're when you're listening, when you're when you're a speaker or a listener, that you're able to name your felt experience like, Oh, I'm excited, I'm I'm bored, I'm it. You know, I'm sad, I'm so being able to put words to those feelings, and for the listener, to be able to hear those and reflect, or even to be able to go beyond the edge of what the person is saying. Felt wise that you're sensing making a guess of what they're they're feeling to help them, you know, for the for to help them go deeper in their experiencing so, and then the concept of, if that there's a feeling that people the need, you know, it's like, what is the need? You know, that feelings and needs that you're wanting to say that the feelings are pointing to a need that people have, you know, so if in the need is met or unmet, I don't know how much you've looked into NBC,
but I've read the book, but I and I have looked into getting trained to become a facilitator, because I think it's, it's similar to this in a in that it's very, very practical. And I like the practical aspect of it, yeah,
I think it's just going in little deep. It's going in deeper into the relationship and also the philosophy that you're coming from. You know, there's a underlying philosophy that everyone is trying to meet their needs. So when you see someone, you're you're not judging them, because you're just and you're trying to find out what their needs are. And then, you know, just see about, you know, for example, if someone is, you know, very angry, you hear, Oh, I hear you're angry, but you're thinking, Oh, what's the need underneath that, the anger and maybe it's need for being heard, right? So you actually hear them, and, oh, I feel heard. And so their need for being heard and seen is met and and that there's and it's sort of a philosophy underneath. But the approach with the empathy circle, I think is just a little easier. It's an easy it's not. There's a lot of philosophy, you know, within NBC, it takes a lot of training and people. But with the empathy circle, you're learning sort of by doing. And a lot that you learn in NBC, you just kind of learn it by by doing, through the experience of it, and hopefully are able to go deeper. So,
yeah, I think that that's I would love to get trained in both methodologies to really have a deep understanding, because yours is more like the framework wherein you can use NBC principles it
seems. Yeah, it's an easier starting point. And there's other practices too. You know there's focusing, if you're familiar with Jean, Jen's focusing practice, let me Okay, so that's another one. If you're wanting there's a whole constellation of practices, right? That, and it's called focusing gendlin, he'll come so he was also so both, you know, Rosenberg and jendolin were students of Carl Rogers. They kind of built on his work. So Jen Len's insight, he did a study. He said, Okay, people are growing in therapy, and some people you know grow, and some don't, you know, they go to their therapist and they have growth in their dealing with their issues. Why are they having growth and not who's having positive motion? And he looked at all the different types of therapy, and he found that they were pretty much the same in terms of effectiveness and but the thing that was, what the the most effective was actually the the speaker, that if the speaker was speaking from their felt experience and going towards the edge of what their felt experience is, you know. So you might have some anger, but you're not even aware of and it's sort of just below the surface that you're kind of going to the that surface, the edge of your your felt experience, you know, what's there, and kind of giving space for what new, what wants to arise. New, you know, wants to arise. So he has a whole process for it's actually, I would say it's a self empathy process. If we put it into the context of the empathy circle, it's going to be the speaker speaking in a way that they're speaking more deeply, and they also use active listening, kind of in their in their process.
Well, yeah, I definitely need to pick up this book then, because I'm seeing that he wrote a book just called focusing, yeah,
and there's, there's tons, there's a whole institute, you know, that of his work, and. Of people you know working in that field of international focusing Institute. That's it. Yeah, a lot of videos. So here's another thread you know, of kind of based again, on Rogers work. And I would say this is, these are tools of how you can go more deeply into an empathy circle, the same way with of the focusing is going to help you go be go deeper, as well as NVC will help you go deeper within the context of an empathy circle. Yeah, that's really great to your experiences. I'm trying to tie it back, you know, again to the Yeah,
well, and it's interesting, because it seems like it you can have different levels of empathy circles, you know? You can have the skipping across the surface, this is what I did today, and then the person responds back to you with, oh, this is what you did today, right? You can keep it very surface level, and then you can go to deeper levels, if you're tapping into these needs and you're, you know, creating that space where there's that holistic empathy that's that's present there. So I like it. I like the idea of of you just you start with the surface level so that you can practice that, and then as you learn these other techniques, then you already have the framework that you can use to go deeper.
Yeah, that's exactly how I'm approaching it. It's like people can start from wherever they are. Some people just parrot back, like, almost like, you know, the parroting, but I don't judge them, you know, some people like, Oh, they're parroting. It's terrible or something, but it's, it's where people are starting, right? They're kind of like, learning to ride a bike. And you can just start wherever. And then you start observing other people in the circle, and you actually learn to go deeper by observing and taking part as people reflect back to you. You can hopefully move beyond just the strict, you know, word for word, sort of parroting. But you know, people just start where they start. And and we can create more curriculum too, of how to go deeper and basically just take from focusing. I mean, you know, just take from curriculum, from NVC and focusing. And there's a lot of other, you know, family systems, family system, interim family systems. I think that's, that's like an imaginative empathy. Think, uh, aspect to it you can be is you can do the role playing.
So, yeah, that's cool. I like that idea. Yeah, I would love to help with creating training to go deeper in that, because that's something that I think is something I'm equally passionate about. So if you want, great, yeah,
yeah. Okay, yeah. Well, the first thing is, is learn the, you know, take the training, you know, take it five times so you're familiar, you know, with being, being a trainer. And then we want to create the next level after that, you know. And once you've sort of done it, you'll see what kind of need, what the needs are for the next but there's going to be conflict mediation. It'll be kind of self empathy, you know. It'll be all the, you know, going into feelings and needs. So kind of take from all the other practices and just kind of plug it into the empathy circle. And then there's also the the the definitional part too. Of want to hear kind of go through your presentation again, and if we can kind of go slow and sort of map it over to the empathy circle too, yeah.
Do you want to have that be our plan for next week? Yeah, just go through my presentation, and we can just really go through each one of those definitions.
Yep, that would be, that'd be great. And then we'll have that commonality. We can kind of see what's next. And I'm going to keep that just gives me a bit of practice, you know, presenting this, and I want to keep refining this presentation was in April, we have another empathy Summit, and then, so I want to present it again. And then in May, there's the an empathy Oh, there's an empathy conference at UC Santa Cruz. And so we're going to be, let me give you, you might be, yeah, interested in that, because you're not too far away the empathy Summit. And we're going to be presenting there. We're going to do some empathy circles too with that group. It'll be, there'll be an online component come to that, yeah. So here's a here's a link to it. You can it's through the virtual school of Australia. And they, last year they did the conference in Prague, and this year they're doing it, working with it. You see Santa Cruz, hmm. We're partnering with them, if you follow the links there,
yeah, I definitely need to go to that. It's a hybrid event, so they'll have some aspects that are online and some that are in person. Is that what I Yeah, okay, well, I keep thinking. I mean, for the last year, since I found you, I've been thinking I need to come down to California and experience some of this firsthand. So this might be a good opportunity. Yeah, be great. Oh, but that's the week before this huge event that we're doing with sports. We're doing a camp, a sports camp on campus, and we're focusing on character development within the sporting context, and that's on the May 30 and 31st I don't know that that's going to be a good time for me to be leaving. But also
the online aspect, you can take part, okay, well, I'm
going to read more on their website and see what's available. And that's UC Santa Cruz,
yeah. Last year, we presented about the empathy circle online at their conference. They liked it so much they wanted us to partner and do actually a two hour empathy circle. So our group is doing a two hour empathy circle with them. Hey, that's beautiful.
How exciting. Okay, so this is put on by it's not put on by UC Santa Cruz.
It's with them. It's like a joint project. It's a virtual school of Australia. They hold these at different places in around the country, around the world. Last one, like I said, was in Prague, and, oh, this one, and in this one is they're working together with UC you know, Santa Cruz. Oh,
that's cool. Yeah, I want to learn everything I can on the topic. So I will see if I can make it to that. Yeah, I
was going to present about the definition again there. So I'm kind of wanting to prepare
that. How long is that presentation? 20 minutes. Well, I'm sure you could speak for two hours on that
topic. I could never stop. I know, yeah, well, yeah, it's a lot of fun working with someone who's, you know, is passionate about the topic and kind of in really into it, and has time and space for it. You know, a lot of people, like Anita there, she's pretty busy with all her, you know, work and stuff. And yeah, as a grad student, you're kind of in that Learning Mode. And yeah. And
so this is the time to be going Yeah, rather than just being so. I mean, I have, I have probably 20 projects that I should be working on, but this is the one that I want to work on.
And so empathy projects, or other
just some, most of them are empathy related, but then some of them are, like the character development in general, um. And, yeah, there's, I, I'm, I'm really excited about some of these projects that we have in the pipeline. One of them is like a meditation intervention. We're working with Harvard on this the Harvard neuroscience lab, and looking at different markers before and after the intervention. And one of them so two of the markers are empathy and compassion. And so there are different measures, but there's so much overlap that sometimes you can't tell which thing you're even studying. But then there's also some interesting things, like connectedness with nature, engagement with beauty. Let's see what's another one, dogmatism, that was an interesting one, like willingness to be open to other beliefs or views, which I think is going to be reverse correlated with empathy. I don't think that they're necessarily like directly reverse correlated, but I do think that there's going to be some interesting things to look into there. Yeah, and it'll just be interesting to see how mindfulness meditation influences the whole process, and if people become more like self, empathetic or and also empathetic toward others through this process of engaging with meditation. And there's also, there are two different versions of the meditation that we're looking at. One of them is self mercy, and then also taking it from a hesychastic Christian tradition, looking at the Hess castic prayer, which is asking Jesus to have mercy on you. So one of them is I have mercy on myself. And then compare. Sharing that with asking someone else to have mercy on you. So just comparing what's going to be the difference in the outcomes based on something that's introspective versus asking somebody else for help. So that's going to be interesting. So we'll be able to get some papers out of that by the end of this year. And then I told you about my experiment where I'm going to have people engage in political discussions. I also want to create a new measure, just to not to further complicate this whole convoluted science of empathy, because there are hundreds of different measures. I mean, so many different definitions, and then so many different measures. But I do, I do think that the measures that we have are not getting at this ability that I've talked about with you, the ability to maintain your sense of conviction to what you believe and be fully empathetic with another person. So none of them, none of the measures, really look at that ability. And I think that that's something that is missing from the empathy literature. So working on that.
How would you measure that? How do you so
it would be self report like so asking them, and that's there's always going to be inherent issues with self report measures. And so that's why I'm doing the the actual experiment, where I'm going to prime people for those different approaches. So just be empathetic. Just stick to your values or your convictions. And then a third one, where they're where they're trying to manage both at the same time. And so I might find that people just can't do it like that. It is one or the other. But I do, I do believe that in the course of something like an empathy circle, where you are engaging with the other person, and you're empathizing with yourself and your and you're observing other people empathizing with each other. I think that it is possible to maintain your your truth as well as honor the truth of somebody else. Mm, hmm, um, so those are just some of the projects that I'm working on, and then I've got all the sports stuff that we're working on too. So
wow, that's a lot. That's a lot of projects, yeah, and
that's, I mean, that's not even scratching the surface. I mean, I probably have, probably have 15 more that I could tell you about
get overwhelmed with, yes,
and that's where I was last week, just thinking, okay, one step at a time, like, how do I fit it into the big picture, but then still actually make progress on one project, rather than seeing seeing the forest and not being able to focus on the trees, right? So you have to keep the balance so
well in terms of the mindfulness, just putting a link in that, in Santa Barbara, we had a workshop that was empathizing mindfully with fear. And it was, did it? Let it together with Rod lay weininger, who has a compassion community, mindful heart there in Santa, Barbara. And so we would, we did it. We kind of merged the empathy circle and mindfulness. So rod lay would give do a mindfulness. She's doing guided meditation, you know. So she's, I mean, there's different forms of meditation. So this was mindful, I mean, a guided meditation. He would guide, do a guided meditation, and then we would go into an empathy circle, and then come back, you know, sort of debrief, and then you would do some more mindfulness, and then come back to and, yeah, had a
interesting so the people who were in the empathy circle, they were they talking about their experience with the mindfulness. Is that kind of where
I think it was, we're talking about fear. It was about the topic was fear. So it was like the mindfulness about was tapping into your sense of fear and anxiety, and then you were talking about the fears. And one of the stages she was talking about fears is growing up, you know, your childhood fears, and then talking about those, but using the empathy circle to discuss it. So the guided meditation helped people connect, you know, with that experience, and then the empathy circle is a space for them to dialog. So it was a day long, you know, workshop, I think 10 to five that we did. So,
man, I would have loved to be a part of that. This is a thing of the past, though. This was last year, right? Yeah, that's too bad.
Yeah. We. Didn't like 45 people or 40 people in that workshop?
Well, I would love to see what the difference is like. Which is going to be more effective if you use them separately, like, if you do just the mindfulness meditation or an empathy circle, like, ask people what their experiences with art, with each of those arts, but then combining them, see if that elicits more self empathy, if they're able to engage with their fears more effectively using both. Yeah.
So you want to do kind of like interviews and kind of qualitative, you know, get kind of qualitative reports that would be really interesting. The focusing too. We did a workshop with the focusing person, Anita. She did not Annette. She does focusing. I can find that link somewhere. So the focusing is very similar to the mindfulness was using meditation to tap into your felt experience, and the focusing process helps you sort of stay with the felt experience. And so anyway, it was kind of overlap. I found so and again, I was seeing the empathy circle. It's sort of a foundation for focusing that you can do the focusing practice within an empathy circle. Interesting.
So do I understand correctly that focusing is, this is the gene jenlin. It's, it's a an introspective process, yeah, is it more between
people? It's intro, it's introspective in the sense that you're trying to sense into your felt experience and getting to kind of the edge of your awareness, you know, so you really have your whole bodily sensations, and you're kind of saying, well, here I'm feeling this. Here I'm feeling this to kind of speak from different parts of where the feelings are in your body. But there's the aspect, different versions of it. But the main one, more classic, is, do you have someone that reflects that back? Does active listening to reflect back what you're saying? And that reflection helps you kind of stay present with your own feeling, and by sharing it, that actually changes things. So it's like, oh, I'm feeling some tension this by part of my body. When you share it, it actually that tension will move and expand or contract, or maybe another feeling will will arise. So the the reflection, the flexion actually influences the state of your and it's getting much more nuanced, you know,
yeah, that's really interesting. I'm going to this week, I'm going to read through this website. I have it up the international focusing Institute, because it seems like they have some good like bold headings that I can read some more information about it. I think this will be helpful. Oh, yeah. And I see that there are a lot of videos on here too. Okay, well, I will take that on this week.
And one, let me just bring up. This is a recorded a focusing session I did with Anne wiser Cornell. She's here in Berkeley, and kind of a big trainer, and she did an online session with me. So it's a recorded session, so you can see me doing focusing. So
this same thing happened last week when you sent me something from culture of empathy.com and it my computer says that it's suspicious, and it blocks it, and it won't let me go there. And so I had to look up what's the guy's name, the really amazing African American guy, Davis, Errol Davis, that's right. So I had to look him up elsewhere, but I couldn't access the interview with him. And the same thing is happening now. But it's safe, right? Like you're
looking it's safe where it is it doesn't have the asset, the HTTPS, so your computer is not letting you to go with if it doesn't have a, you know the HTTPS certificate sounds like it's not letting you go there, which we don't have this. Yeah,
okay, let me see. Yeah, it doesn't even want to let me bypass
that, huh? What browser are you using?
I just have, I have bit defender that is super strict. Oh, what is
my browser? If you try Chrome or something, it might, yeah, I have explorer. Does explorer work? I'm just curious. I
don't even have, let's see. I'm sure I can find it somehow, but I'll try again, because I do want to be able to. See. Oh, there we go. It let me go there. So you have this one with her. And then I want to see if I can find the Daryl Davis one on here as well. I've been to this website before several times, so I don't know why it's now not letting me. Okay. Well, I will peruse this this week in all of my ample free time. Oh, you're you're muted. I don't know how much you've been talking, yeah.
So, yeah, I have this cough, so I was meeting when I cough, so not to cough into your ear. Um, yeah. So there's a Daryl Davis, one, okay, yeah. So, okay, so next week, we'll go through your presentation and map it on to the empathy circle. And the next step sounds good?
Okay, I'll just show you something, just unless you have to hop off. No hurry. Okay, I only have a couple more minutes, but I just wanted to show you this analogy that I have at the end of my presentation. If you could let me screen share.
Oh, right. Co host, okay, okay,
there we go. I'll just really quickly share this with you before I started my my PhD program, and before I met you, this is an analogy that I came up with, what that I shared in presentations, basically thinking of empathizing as going on a hot air balloon ride, where you have to So there are different I have never been on a Hot Air Balloon, but I've read into it so that I could map out what those would look like in my analogy. So when they first start out, they suspend like they're still tethered to the ground and they're just suspended. So that that brings up suspending your judgment so you walk into the interaction. So this could be the empathy circle, and you just just decide before you enter, I'm not going to judge. I'm just going to suspend before I make decisions about who this person is, why they're doing what they're doing, what their needs are, what their emotions are. You just suspend any of that judgment and you just engage with them. So then, as you're lifting off, you have to be very careful to monitor what's going on around you. So with that, it's monitoring your lens that you're bringing to the scenario that you're so you recognize that you have baggage that you are bringing to each one of your empathizing encounters. And then this is the one that we typically think of when it's launching into somebody else's world. So we untether. So the way that I talk about this one is it's the most fun because you're soaring up in the sky, but it's also the most dangerous, because if you're not careful, you could get lost up there and you never find your way back to the ground. And the person who is the captain who's flying the balloon, he makes sure to use his CB radio. And so that is the communicate part of this. So you're you're engaging in that reflective listening. And so rather than just experiencing it, you're actually communicating the person. This is what I'm experiencing, and this is what I'm understanding from your experience. And then this is the part that for the longest time I didn't know how to do, is grounding myself. So actually working with your ground crew, so this could be like your friends and family, your therapist, whatever it is, or working on it on your own, to ground yourself back down so that you come back from somebody else's experience and you can come back to to to your perspective, to your to your safe place, to your own emotions, because if you're completely lost out there, you end up being like the typical the stereotypical Empath, just takes on everything and doesn't even know what to do with it. And so that's what I used to be, and that's actually part of why I feel really passionate about this topic. Is a few years ago, we had a really tragic murder suicide close to our family. Was my husband's best friend, actually, and I was engaging so fully with empathizing with everybody's perspective on this, every every different aspect of it, like, I kept seeing the same the event from everybody's perspective. So I I got lost, and I actually had some really serious mental health challenges that came from that. And so that's where I learned that for myself, I need to learn how to ground myself and like, literally go outside and breathe the air, touch the grass, smell the smells around me, because I was just completely untethered in my empathizing with other people. So next week, I would love to talk about how what this looks like in the empathy circle. Oh,
great, yeah, I've already seen all. The different connections, already making those connections. And,
yeah, so I'm excited to talk about it. And I think what, what you might bring to my what you have already brought to my understanding with this is the grounding part in the empathy circle. Maybe that happens when you are the observer.
Yeah, I would say the grounding yourself is being the observer, but also being the speaker, right? You have a chance to speak, and all those people who you're just listening to that they're actually empathizing with you, so your point of view is being heard, plus you're being able to see the community empathizing with each other. So I find that very grounding, instead of you just being the listener to everybody and taking it all on, and the balloon is just going, you know, I guess, I mean, yeah, I guess the balloon is kind of going, I don't know, trying to find the metaphor. I just put in the link there for a metaphors of empathy, a little video I had done years ago on metaphors of empathy. Just hear metaphor analogies kind of got me thinking about
had to stop sharing in order to be able to find it. It's, oh, okay,
yeah, that use you. So, yeah, just how do we create metaphors? And so I love metaphors. I think it's very creative. It's a creative way of looking at the
top. And I think it's helpful because it is such an abstract topic, and so having something concrete, like, like a hot air balloon, like you can envision, okay, I'm going up and I'm communicating with my ground crew, and then I'm coming back down, right? And I don't want to just stay out there untethered, like in a hurricane. I actually, for one of the presentations that I did, I found a video to find it and send it to you, but it's a weather balloon in the middle of a hurricane, and there's a weather reporter who goes out to try and retrieve it, and it just, it's going all over the place, and it's just funny. So I mean, it made everybody in the presentation laugh, because it's like, oh, yeah, maybe that is what I do when I over empathize.
Well, in conflict, conflict is like that. You just have really strong feelings, you know, it's just raw. There's a lot of pain. It's, it's just, you know, and that's what the empathy circle helps to create the structure, you know, structure, I think, is important to is the grounding, that you're not just doing all the listening, and that there's a time limit. People aren't just going on for hours talking about their problems and their point of view, that they have to listen to others. So it's
great training for everybody. Yeah,
and even it's like, it's again, it's I see it like, you know, learning the ride or bicycle, that you start incorporating the mindset, you know, of turn taking, like, hey, giving space to everyone, to to be heard, though it's not just, and then being sure that you understand what the person says. So, yeah, so be great to talk about that in more depth. Yeah, well, I look forward to it. Okay, well, good. Then that's the link there for the metaphors if you get a chance. Okay, it's very short, only
five now have, instead of the 30 tabs that I had open before our meeting, I now have probably 45
Yeah, mark them, okay, all right, see you next week. Take care. Bye.
