It's more difficult for a smaller firm, I would say we just don't have the amount of resources that larger firms have, so we just have to be very smart about it.
Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard, and today I am joined by Jack Chaffin, a licensed architect with over 25 years of experience across a wide range of project types, from libraries, performing arts centers to museums, educational facilities, hospitality venues, housing and commercial spaces. Jack has a remarkable ability to build strong client relationships, working closely with owners and organizations to bring their visions to life with a deep commitment to both design and technical excellence. Jack has led the transition to Building Information Modeling BIM at multiple firms, and is always seeking to innovate ways to leverage data and technology for better project outcomes. He's also passionate about digital fabrication, constantly pushing the boundaries of what's possible in the design space beyond architecture, Jack's academic background in English and Religious Studies brings a unique perspective to work. He's just as comfortable discussing Buddhist literature as he is the intricacies of G code syntax. In this episode, we will discuss innovations using house developed design software for client engagement and design, we would be talking about being an architecture firm or being a software firm, and why and how to choose which pathway forward when there's so many innovations coming out of the practice. And we also look at the BIM capabilities for other consultants and for the business advantages that it gives you as an architecture firm. So really interesting discussion here with Jack. Sit back, relax and enjoy Jack Chafin, and now
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We are looking for architects developer stories for the Business of Architecture podcast. So are you an architect developer with valuable insights to share? We're always on the lookout for passionate voices in the industry to join us on the Business of Architecture podcast. If you're ready to share your journey, lessons, strategies with our global audience, we'd love to hear from you reach out to us to explore being a guest on our show and help inspire other architect developers on their path. We'd be interested in hearing your story, whether you're at the very beginning of your development story, or whether you have $100 million portfolio of projects already in the bag completed. We'd like to hear from you if you're working with the developers, or that you've developed a number of small houses, or you're working at a larger scale. Jack. Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you doing? Great.
Doing great. How are you doing Ryan,
I'm very well. Thank you so absolute pleasure to have you here on the show. You are an architect and partner at Johnston architects up in Seattle, you've got over 25 years of experience working on an array of project types, including residential, high end residential projects, performing arts, museums, civic buildings. A lot of this in the in the portfolio of Johnson architects. And you know, Johnson. Architects, you guys have got an amazing portfolio of of work, and you're also an aficionado or Maestro in all things BIM. And we're going to talk a little bit about BIM and some of the business applications and some of the the newer revenue streams or innovations that you guys have been pioneering at Johnston architects. So welcome to the show. And perhaps we could, we could start with just explaining a little bit in your own words, your role at Johnson architects and how you got there.
Yeah, I, I'm one of six partners here, two founding partners and then four partners who've joined more recently? Yeah, my, my primary focus is on public and civic work. Currently, we also have a wing of the company. It's not a wing of the company, it's actually a separate company called ja special projects that is a contractor. So we have the ability to create and install installations, etc, within the projects that we're working on. I also do a bit of marketing and lead the marketing department as well.
Great, great. Now that's interesting, the the contracting component of the of the business, is that a relatively new thing, or is it something that's always, is it always been part of the of the practice? Or how has that evolved?
Yeah, it is. It's almost, I'm gonna say it's almost a year old now. And the reason it evolved was because we were starting to create components and installations within the within the office that we're going to go out into the public realm. And as an architecture firm, we didn't really have the capability of providing the type of insurance and bonding capacity that you need when you're doing something like that. So we started a separate company, J ASP for short, and it was born out of that. So we created a it was a specific project that that that was the catalyst for this. It was a digital like pegboard installation for a children's area and the Edmonds library. And it's very large installation. It took up a pretty good footprint within the office. And essentially what it is is it's a it's kind of like a big light, bright in a way. And you have pegs that children can hold and put it into the little holes, and they do different things depending on how it's programmed. So you can play games on it. You can create, like a flower garden. There's all sorts of different ways of interacting with it, a lot of which is was done to be sort of teamwork based. So one peg goes in over here and another one goes in over here that it does something, it reacts. It makes a little platform for a ball to jump off of those types of things, anyway. So the the main impetus then, for j ASP was for us to take that, you know, out of, out of the safety of our office, and put it out into the public realm, where kids might be putting, who knows what, gum, etc, their fingers up against this thing, and make sure that, you know, we were, we were covered, and that we were legitimate contracting firm that was installing this within the admin site. What
was it as a result of, like, not being able to find any other kind of fabricators to do what you wanted to do? Or
that's an oil price, or it was a kind of
you were, you were prototyping ideas in the office, and you're like, well, we've, we've already protested, it's pretty good here. Let's just take it this step further, and we could install this ourselves.
Yeah, it, it actually was a combination of both of those things. We we didn't know exactly who to who to contact to make this thing that we had in our in our minds. We did make a small prototype of it to show the client, and they really liked it. They they thought it was a great idea that it would be very successful. You know, it's nice to be able to have something within a library that draws families to it that's unique. And so, yes, from that small prototype that was maybe three feet square to the full component, which is, I think it's 12 by 812, feet by eight feet. Um, it just, it just grew relatively organically out of our office, and once we realized that we have the capability of creating it, we. Then sort of took it under our wing and decided, well, we don't really need to reach out to fabricators for this. Let's just start our own company, and we can be the fabricators and installers. And I think that the more important thing was the installer part of that equation. We have to be able to ensure the people who are working on the project as well as the folks who are interacting with it.
Is it something that you can see the possibility of being able to do more height, like kind of more kind of building components and digital fabrication, and actually really start to compress that, that distance between architect and final produced object?
Yeah, absolutely. And I, we've, we've been touching on that throughout the years, and different types of installations where it's almost been more of a partnership with the fabricator and installer, and the ability for us to, for instance, we did a lighting installation and a mixed use building. It was a ceiling in the lobby that was essentially a very, very large LED display behind these translucent flags that kind of move a little bit in the wing and the wind. And so essentially, that was very complex one. We created all the digital files for it. We created all the video components for it. The actual LED matrix itself was made in China and shipped over. The flags were made here on Seattle by a fabricator that we had worked with, and we just gave them the digital files, and they cut them all to size and labeled them and put them in bags for us. Then the contractor, the general contractor, actually installed the LED panels into the ceiling and then installed the flags one by one. But it was us in during our prototyping, who came up with the way to install the flags and actually provided the tools that we used to do the prototype to the general contractor for them to use for the installation. And we also were able to give them the ability to project on the LED screens above where each flag belonged, so that the installer could say, Okay, I take a one and I put it at a one, and take a two and I put it at a two, and so it kind of gave them the life size drawing and layout that they were to follow, which really Cut down on the amount of time that the general contractor thought it was going to take to do this. They were able to do, I believe, the whole installation in two days.
Amazing. Yeah, and, and at the moment, then, you know, what have been the kind of the applications that you've been really maximizing this potential, this kind of JSP component of the business, what's been the main application, and where do you see the future of it? How many and how do clients respond to it?
Clients really appreciate it, because we're able to, before we maybe have a contractor on board, are able to start creating some things that are pretty exciting for their buildings, at least prototyping and mocking up things that they can actually see and touch and interact with before the actual installation itself. I would say that the way I the way we are using it currently, is very digitally based, you know, it's a lot about electronics and programming and our ability to do those types of tasks within a relatively modest, you know, architecture firm footprint, I think, in the future, you Know. And this is part of our strategic plan for the for the company is to increase our footprint and include a shop of some kind, and because right now, our tools are not at a scale that we can create anything larger, really, than the 12 foot by eight foot peg wall that we created. So if we're going to start getting into facade components or larger components of installations, you know, millwork, that kind of thing, then we're going to need to expand our capabilities. Currently, we're doing great with what we've got, but the the future definitely involves some kind of upgrade of our tools, including, I'm sure, CNC router, you know, water Jack cutter, those types of things that we can go very quickly. Quickly from computer to creation and back and forth, you know, and creating that sort of feedback loop,
it becomes very exciting, you know, when we're getting up when, and obviously that there's a, there's a challenge with moving out of the scale of a large of something large installation, up to architectural scale, and also the volume of components. So, you know, at the moment, we're kind of in this world of we can make beautiful, bespoke things to a certain size, but then, like you say, facade details and the repetition that's needed, and then the tools, or the kind of manufacturing processes, it becomes slightly more strenuous. But have you, have you found that having the kind of in house capabilities of being able to produce things, then you can go to, say, a facade designer or a facade manufacturer, and you can really help push the production of something quite new and innovative to a much higher level.
Yeah, that is actually one of the impetus is for doing this type of work. A lot of times as architects, we will propose something, and it will be drawn and a it, it may not communicate the intent as directly as we would like, to the general contractor or the fabricator who's going to be building it, and that results in not only increase in cost for that component or system, but also increase in schedule, friction, etc. And so we've found, and over the years, that by being able to create something, hang it in your office or in a space, show it to the contractor, say, you know us. You know architects. We made this. You know this. It's not that hard. You know you guys, I'm sure could do a much better job, but, you know, it really takes the fear factor away a little bit. And I think it also creates a level of trust and confidence that the contractor you know looks at you slightly differently. If you know you can actually create the thing that you've you've been drawing and asking them to introduce into the field.
It's, I think that's very quite, there's a lot of wisdom there in that, in actually starting to have conversations with contractors around physically made objects or instruction, as opposed to always, you know, we've got, in a way, the building industry has kind of got a very set mechanism for production of drawings, and then there's a kind of legal side to those drawings and the information they need to have, and everyone's trying to cover their ass in some kind of way. And actually that it becomes secondary to the the the intent can be lost, and those starting to have, like large scale mock up conversations with a contractor, is, is a is a fascinating way of starting to speed up a, speed up the process, and also B, perhaps reduce the amount of production drawings that are needed, because you've just got a whole load of understanding that's happened,
Right? Yeah, absolutely, with the ceiling that we were talking about previously, it was very hard to describe to the contractor, but when we bought them into the office and showed them the mock up that was hanging from the ceiling, you know, their eyes kind of lit up. They were excited by it. They're like, Oh, okay, I get it. I think we can do that better, but I get it. And that's a it's a great way to, I don't know, it's a great way to build a relationship with the folks who are making it. And it not only you know, serves as you know, proving that the idea is is worthwhile and and can be completed, but also that you know you're going to work together to do it, and you know you're going to have to work together to do it. And so we provided, as I said, lots of digital files for them. We made connections with the folks who made the flags. They made connections with the folks who made the LED panels. And it really became a very, very collaborative effort, and one that I think is really beneficial to architects and the architects who worked on that project, to be able to push design right up to the point when the thing is getting installed, finding solutions, finding details and working it out with a contractor, literally up until the day it gets installed. And so I think it's not only you know good for us to gather that experience and to be able to influence the construction to that degree, but it's also. Great for the client, because it ended up costing much less than we thought it would. It ended up growing in faster, and it is a very robust system that you know works pretty much 24/7 and you know is the highlight of that project, amazing
in terms of your communication with contractors in general, and we often see sometimes architects or the engineers, the design teams are getting quite sophisticated with their use of BIM technology, for example. And then there might be this lag where the rest of the design team has got a really sophisticated set of way of communicating with BIM technology. And then the contractor, and again, in contract, there's, there's big sort of shifts in sophistication with contractors, from guys who are going to be doing houses to guys who are doing skyscrapers and airports, and sometimes there's not anything in the middle, and then you've, you've got a, now, wonderful way of 3d modeling everything. But then how do you get that to the contractor who doesn't have BIM capabilities, for example? What sorts of things have you seen, or challenges have you kind of come across with, with the your technology accelerating, and then your other part of the design team's technology, not, yeah,
that's that is a real issue. We we do work of all scales, right? And so, yes, from the very complex to a house renovation, um, and a lot of times, the digital capabilities of the folks that we're working with are very varied, and so what we like to try and do is figure out what it is that they need to create the thing that we've designed and give it to them in that way that is most suited for them. So for instance, it may not be a 3d model that they really need. What they really need is, and this is kind of a relatively recent example. Maybe it's a very large scale plot, you know, that we literally print the thing out and use that for layout. Or maybe it's just a CAD file or a PDF that they can use for dimensioning or very basic cutting and laying out. Then there are other times, and this happens probably just as frequently, where we connect that contractor with somebody who can do the thing, whatever that thing is. So whether it's, you know, more case work, interior stuff, more facade system stuff. We've been working long enough in this sort of realm, in this area, that we've made a lot of connections. And so we're able to take and a lot of times, what we'll end up doing is we'll take that complex thing, we will make it and add alternate during bid phase, so that the contractor can say, You know what, I don't really want to touch that, or I'm going to throw a huge number at it. And then once the contractor is on board, we can work with them to say, Okay, if you reach out to these guys, you know it's going to be much less they know how to do it. We can give them the information that they need to create it, and you guys could contract together to create this thing, you know, for half the cost you, you might think it would cost you. So a lot of it is relationships, which is great, because also we can't fabricate no matter how big we get, we can't fabricate everything. And so I think that having these relationships, especially locally, is really helpful, and also, you know, lend some credence to us as architects, in the eyes of the general contractor as well, because we, you know, we know the folks who can make the make the complex things.
How has this, how the relationship that the firm has had with kind of, you know, innovating with digital technologies, how has that always been at the core of the founding of the of the firm? Or has it been something that's been introduced more recently, or is it something that was kind of driven by certain individuals in the firm?
Yeah, I think there's always been a sort of underlying desire to push the envelope as far as technology is concerned. But I would say it wasn't until really that that I came on board and one of our other partners, known as Zellers, we worked together. Previously came on board that we really started to go in this direction. Specifically, you know, ja had adopted Vim, you know, they were definitely doing, doing the good work, as far as you know, pushing technology into the firm. But as far as. Digital fabrication and getting things out there into the real world, and pushing the envelope in those ways that was relatively recently, probably from 2018 on.
And the the service that I was looking at earlier was the parametrics designing of ADUs, accessibility, dwelling units. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and how that relates to some of this kind of technological innovation within the firm? Yeah, that's
a great one. The so the the main one that we're we're sort of trying to push, it's called the casita. And it's interesting because the casita was actually a project that was first envisioned by one of our founding partners, Ray Johnston, as his adu for his house, and it was very simple in its structure and lent itself very well to being modularized. And thus, you know, we could put it into a parametric environment and be able to sort of swap out those modules very quickly. We got to the point where we have gotten to the point where we replicate that ability for a person to go to the website, make the adu of their choice, submit it. And we have, we have the the mirror, or the the sister components in BIM that we can just put the casita together in our BIM platform and produce drawings relatively immediately, maybe not permit drawings, but drawings that are good enough to construct, and, you know, very close to being able to be permitted depending on what the site conditions are, wow,
and and so from a client perspective, how did they interface with that process? Is it something that's almost, almost automated, where they can come in and use, very much used to perform themselves?
Yeah, it is. It's, uh, it's accessible through our website. And people go in there and they, they make, you know, small kitchen, large bedroom, large bath, living room, sauna, maybe, and just hit the submit button. And then we get an email with what that design is and who the contact is, and if they're, you know, serious about moving forward. Then it is, you know. Then we get into BIM and we say, okay, it's component A, B, C and E, and we just choose those components that we've already made, and then the views on sheets, etc, are already made. All of the details are made. And so it really cuts down on the amount of effort, and thus cost to sort of get this relatively bespoke adu out to our clients. And so it kind of breaks down that barrier of, you know, hiring an architect, and how do I do that? And, you know, it gets, gets over a little bit of that, I think, tentative fear, you know, of, you know, taking that first step that's
amazing. So that so, so essentially, they could be searching on the internet find their website design, a kind of design intent, using your software, your parametric software, they've got a vision of it. Then they click Submit, and then you get alerted to, here's a potential prospect and a project, and half half the design work's already been done, and then you can bring your architectural expertise just to tidy up, make sure it gets pro
approvals. Yeah, exactly. And we've also found it's a great marketing tool, because people may start there, but they may end up with a custom home. You know, it, it doesn't. It doesn't always, it's not always linear, you know, but it's a safe way to sort of make that first contact and just to drum up sort of interest. And, you know, I'm sure you know that you you know that the adu market and the D, A, D, u market are just, you know, pretty hot right now because people are looking for ways to either, you know, make the most out of the property that they currently own, or contractors are looking for ways to make, you know, more get more efficiency out of certain sites, etc. And zoning codes are changing all over the country, so to allow these types of things, and in the Seattle area, it's been very, very popular for since we've gone down.
So the actual interface on the on the website, the parametric casita thing, was that then a piece of software that you've white labeled and then allowed to go on. How did that? Have that interface between client and design come about, because even That in itself is quite a quite a step.
Yeah, it was, that was a ja Special Projects project before we had ja special profit. So I would be remiss if I didn't, if I didn't give a shout out to our design technologist Shane Lehman, who has been the impetus behind, you know, most of the digital work, behind the fabrication and the website, the parametrics. So Shane created this from scratch, literally, and we went through multiple months of iterations on it. You know, we're not really a software development company, but we do develop software for our own needs as the needs arise. And that is kind of a, it's a it is a service we offer, although it's not, you know, certainly not a primary service that we offer. So anyway, yeah, it wasn't white labeled. It was created all in house, and which was great, because it allowed us, we already had the drawings for the original Casita, so sort of moving from that into this virtual environment, parametric environment was fairly straightforward. You know, a lot of it had to do with user interface that we struggled with. You know, how do you present this in a way that a lay person is going to be able to interact with it, understand what they're looking at, etc. We actually, originally, we had a component associated with it that would provide a rough order of cost. We took that down because costs have been going all over the place since the pandemic. But yeah, so it was a very robust thing that we spent a good deal of our own sort of sweat equity bringing up the to speed. And it's been great. It's been great from a marketing standpoint, from just getting, you know, some good architecture out there, to folks who may otherwise have not been able to hire an architect to do their projects. And yeah, it's, it was also a great development learning experience for us,
amazing. No, I mean, it's the sort of thing. I think it's really interesting these kinds of new ways for architects to be interfacing with clients. And, you know, actually having a tool where they're empowered to be able to put together some ideas, and you can only see this sort of thing improving immensely with AI, where it's more like, you know, rather than them even touching a mouse, they could just be having a conversation, you know, a verbal conversation with the AI. And the AI is generating the designs for them, and then the architect gets involved to actually making it. It's a full way of being able to interact with design expertise, and you guys not having to spend any resource, like time resource there, and it just kind of fits. It's the, it's the it's there to be found on the on the on the website, or however else you then promote and market the, you know, traffic to that particular tool.
Yeah, it is really, it is interesting once we send it out into the wild, you know, and just it does, it has a life of its own, you know, it's out there people are using it, you know, we don't necessarily know what people are doing, you know, they're just, we know how many people are using it, those kinds of bits of information, but until they hit that submit button, you know that? Who knows? Yeah, just playing, and I think it's we have been able to sort of use that same technology in in different ways, or more, like project specific ways, for community engagement, community outreach. So, you know, you can go to the website, you know, where do you want your children's area on a library? Where do you want the entrance to be, etc, those kinds of, you know, very basic layout types of tools that we can then look at, sort of on the back end and see. And again, Shane created this, we can see a heat map, kind of of where folks want things, and whatever that program is, you know, where you know, is there a consensus on where the front door should be, for instance, and those types of decisions that you know, allow people in the community, or really wherever, to be able to have their voice heard and the design process and so yeah, it works. I think that also translate to translates to more public projects, not just so, yeah,
have you found other architecture. Firms wanting to use the same software, or kind of, either, you know, license it from you, or anything like that
we have. And it's that's sort of, Why say we do offer it as a service, but it's really a primary service that that type of interaction has happened. It's not, you know, it certainly isn't a daily thing, but it has been announced, yeah,
that's very, very interesting in terms of being able to financially, you know, put resource into the development of this kind of research and innovations. What are the sorts of things, what, first of all, what are the challenges in being able to do that? And then what other things have to be working really well in the rest of the business to be able to, yeah,
that's a great question, because we are at a size where we're around 30 people, and at that size, you know, we don't have the resources of, say, you know, a 200 person, 500 person firm, yeah, and yet we're trying to do the same things. And so it is more difficult, I will say, is definitely more difficult for us than it is for the larger firms to be able to handle that percentage of overhead that we are that we're putting down on the bottom line. So we have to be pretty intentional about it. We have to be sort of rigorous in the way that we roll these things out and how we track it and plan for it. I will say, you know, previously, it's been pretty bootstrappy, and we've been, you know, sort of, can we afford this? Yeah, some of this, you know, probably is marketing. So we'll put it in that bucket, um, and then some of it is, you know, directly, you know, we're creating a thing, and the clients paying for paying us for it. So that's pretty, pretty straightforward. But the the actual sort of development, research and development, and sort of gaining the expertise that we don't have, you know, that we're not going to charge clients for us. You know, getting up to speed on that, that learning curve, is something that we as partners and the folks who are doing the work, you know, we're in constant communication like, Okay, how much percentage of my time am I going to be able to spend on this overhead project? And you know, for people like Shane, he has a higher percentage of his job that is going we know it's going to be overhead. You know, them say, a typical project architect who's going to be have a much higher utilization than than Shane does, and so that's just been a conscious choice of ours, you know, I think instead of maybe doing some other overhead type of thing, you know, we're we're using those resources to do this research and to make the that wing of the firm more robust. So, you know, long story short, it's more difficult for a smaller firm, I would say we just don't have the the amount of resources that larger firms have, so we just have to be very smart about it. And I think we're getting much better at it and being able to sort of predict what these almost unpredictable, you know, research efforts are going to cost us
in in terms of finding predictability, if you like, the kind of traditional architectural services and measuring time. What sorts of systems do you have in place to make sure that your you know the fees that you have got for the regular projects are being properly utilized. Because obviously the danger is that we all know architecture projects, suddenly a client said has made a change order, and then you've got half a team spend four weeks on some other detail, and then they didn't charge for it. And then yeah, and that, and then bang, goes your your research and development funding, right?
No, that's a, it's a really good point. And I think that, you know, the the sort of big picture answer to that is we, we sort of smear it across all projects, you know, and we look at the bottom line you know regularly to see, you know, what, how is our utilization doing versus our overhead? You know, do we need to pull back slightly on, you know, it may not even be research and development. It might be marketing. You know, are we spending too much time marketing? You know, are we? How are we, sort of, how can we move those levers so that we remain profitable at a place where we want to be, but also we're able to do these things that we think will hold us up, you know, in the years to come, and make us the firm that you know is able to compete in five years from now, and who knows what AI is doing. Doing and where technology is at that point in time,
in terms of the conversations that you have as partners around the strategic vision of the practice. Obviously, when you're engaging with research like this, there's the temptation it could be like you could turn into a software company right. There could be a left, a left turn, where you just go right? We're just going to focus on pioneering this kind of software which becomes an interface to up, how do you or what is the strategic vision of the company, and what, what is the sorts of decisions that you have to make so that you're all aligned and focused in in the same direction?
Yeah, that's a very good question, because we have a design technology manager who's created so many wonderful add ons for our BIM system that we're thinking like, Well, why aren't we selling this? You know, we should be selling this. He's it is quite an advantage for us to have that. I will say, there's no doubt about it, and the processes that we've been able to put in place make us more efficient, you know, cut down on errors and omission, quality control, all of that. But yes, those those apps, you know, can we monetize that that? And you know, that's a conversation that we we are having because, you know, to be quite honest, that's more profitable than, say, you know, a typical architecture project, and is a potential source of revenue. And I think also, you know, sort of an exciting thing for the folks who are working on it as well. You know, it's great to be able to be an architect, also do software development, rather than having to go to like Microsoft, or, you know, some other local company where you're not able to sort of pursue what you're trained to do and what your passion is.
Yeah, no. And it's very interesting when we've as we've seen companies like, obviously, Geary and big who have successfully, kind of taken bits of internal software innovations and taking it to a broader market and becoming a powerful revenue stream, but it's still subservient, if you like, it might it may be makes more money, but it's still subservient to the vision of the firm, which is architecture,
yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can't ever really see us going completely virtual. I think that there's too much, you know, sort of love and care here for the built environment that that probably will never happen. But it is a great, you know, sort of diversifier of what we're able to offer. And you know, one of our Business of Architecture, you know, primary goals is to make sure that our portfolio is very diversified, and to make sure that, you know, if we're seeing higher interest rates affecting our our developer led projects that we have other places where we can, you know, shift to during the up and down times that you can't avoid. It's just the larger market.
Obviously. The other sort of revenue stream that is starting to emerge is through the special projects and becoming more and more of a unique type of contractor. What what do you see is the future there in terms of how that element of the business can can develop, and can you see you guys doing, you know, complete construction of things in the, in the future of of, perhaps even these, ADUs, yeah,
maybe, um, it's that is interesting, because a lot of ja folks worked on the original Casita, you know, and so that was, you know, we folks would go for a weekend and work with Ray and and and build the casita. And, you know, obviously that was highly educational for the folks who were doing it, and also gave us a really good understanding of what it was that we were drawing versus what was getting erected and then sort of having that feedback loop into, you know, what was then put out on the website. I think that the JA special projects will always be in service of the JA architecture. Don't think that it will ever reverse. I don't think that that role would ever reverse? I think that it is a way to sort of turbo charge those offerings that we have in the office. Our ability to, you know, diversify what what our offerings are. But also, I think, you know, my primary goal with ja special projects is to make sure that what is going out into the built environment is as direct a reflection of whatever the our vision, the client's vision, the team's vision, is for the design and being able to realize that and make sure that there aren't barriers of entry, like cost or lack of understanding. And you know, schedule, friction, you know, any of those things that we can break down with Jay special projects. You know, the better it is for the building that we're designing.
Amazing, very good. And what's the plan for the rest of 20 well, as we're coming up into lenses 2024, and for 1025, whereas Where do you see the company? What are some of the things you've got cooking for the next year? Yeah,
it's, that's a really good question. We have a lot of really exciting projects in the office, and a lot of stuff is actually starting to go into construction. You know, a lot of sort of, kind of, like pandemic babies that are starting to actually see the light of day. So that's really exciting. We have some wonderful library projects coming up, lots of single family as always. And within each of those, I think we're starting to find more opportunities for the types of things that we've been talking about. You know, it's at this point we start thinking about those things very early in the process, like, oh, well, what can we do here? And you know, this facade portion, you know, is that something that we could make, or is that something we could work with such and such fabricator to get a mock up done before we get the contractor on board? And so, yeah, we're seeing a lot of those opportunities come out. We are going to do our best to see how much we can grow ja SP, the next year and see if we can get some more interesting projects out there. Fantastic,
brilliant. Well, Jack, I think that's been really illuminating and really fascinating of the innovations that you guys are doing at ja, so thank you very much for coming on the show.
Absolutely thank you,
and that's a wrap.
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