591: Culture Beats Strategy - Why Most Firms Fail The "Ego Trap" and Never Make it Past 10 Years with Aran McCarthy & Jennifer Kenson of FCA Architects | Otter.ai

591: Culture Beats Strategy - Why Most Firms Fail The "Ego Trap" and Never Make it Past 10 Years with Aran McCarthy & Jennifer Kenson of FCA Architects

Enoch Sears55min

Speaker 1

00:00

If you always do everything yourself, you'll never empower other folks to to learn and grow.

Rion Willard

00:07

Welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard, and today I'm joined by two powerhouse professionals from FCA, each bringing a wealth of expertise and insight to the field. First we have Jennifer Kenson, a leader in healthcare interior design with over 30 years of experience. Jennifer graduated from Drexel University and began her journey in the industry at diversified interior design, Sister firm to FCA, after building her career across several prominent firms in Philadelphia, Jennifer returns to FCA, where she now leads their healthcare interior design team. Her portfolio includes award winning projects like the pediatric Pavilion at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center New York, Jefferson Cherry Hill lobby and Hamad Medical City in Doha, Qatar, among others. Joining her is Aaron McCarthy, the current president of FCA with 35 years of architectural experience, originally from Dublin, Ireland, Aaron started in Architectural Technology before completing his architecture degree at Drexel. His journey with FCA spans 25 years, rising from a staff architect to the sixth president in the company's seven decade history, Aaron also serves on the board of the carpenters company, the oldest builders guild in the US, and is a recognized voice in the industry, frequently speaking at conferences and contributing to leading design journals. Together, Jennifer and Aaron bring a rich blend of technical skill, visionary leadership and shared commitment to excellence in healthcare and architectural design. In this episode, we discuss collaborative business mergers to create long, lasting culture and succession. We look at the valuation process that happens and how to preserve merging cultures into each other. We look at why business culture eats strategy for breakfast, and we also have a look at biophilic design and FCA approach to healthcare and why this has been so important, both for the healthcare industry and for their organization's growth vision. So sit back, relax and enjoy Aaron McCarthy and Jennifer Kenson, this episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architecture's flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smartpractice method.com or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you. Please follow the link in the information we are looking for architect developer stories for the Business of Architecture podcast. So are you an architect developer with valuable insights to share? We're always on the lookout for passionate voices in the industry to join us on the Business of Architecture podcast, if you're ready to share your journey lessons, strategies with our global audience, we'd love to hear from you reach out to us to explore being a guest on our show and help inspire other architect developers on their path. We'd be interested in hearing your story, whether you're at the very beginning of your development story or whether you have $100 million portfolio of projects already in the bag, completed, we'd like to hear from you if you're working with the developers, or that you've developed a number of small houses, or you're working at a larger scale. Aaron and Jennifer, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you both?

Unknown Speaker

03:40

Very good. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker

03:42

Very good. Thank you, Ron, what a pleasure

Rion Willard

03:44

to have you both here on the show. So very excited to be speaking with you. Jennifer, you are a principal and Aaron, new year the President of FCA, a company. You've got multiple offices around the US, and you've got quite a extraordinary portfolio of of work that spans multiple sectors, from hospitality, commercial work, education, there's residential in there as well. So very excited to be speaking with you and talk a little bit about the business aspects of an organization like FCA. And perhaps we could, perhaps we'll start with, kind of asking you both individually for a condensed version of, how did you get to the position of where you are now, and how would you describe your role? And perhaps we'll start with perhaps we'll start with Jennifer. Okay,

Speaker 2

04:44

so I graduated, and my first role and job was with FCA, Sister interior design firm, was there for about three years, and was encouraged to go and look for another job. Basically that was really focused on more high end design, because that was my passion. I really wanted to get into more of design, and we was doing more simplified kind of corporate standard stuff. So in my career, I went so I looked for those jobs. I ended up going to three or four different firms, but on my journey back to FCA, I in the middle of that journey of the past 30 years, I came back to FCA again, worked in the New York office for three or four years, and then went somewhere else. I called them my research projects, because it really allowed me to kind of see how other firms work, what else was out there. They were bigger firms that I went to, but bigger than FCA at the time. And ultimately came back to FCA in conversations with the principals at the time that they were looking for somebody to lead their healthcare interiors practice to really improve the quality of design, and as my focus in my career had really been on the design aspect, plus on the business side of things, I thought I was kind of qualified and looking for that kind of next step in my career. So that's how it kind of I ended up back at FCA,

Rion Willard

06:18

great. Thank you. Aaron, yeah.

Speaker 1

06:21

So I started, I graduated in Architectural Technology in Dublin, Ireland, which is where I was originally born. After I graduated, I went to work in London for a few years with a firm called Green Lloyd architects. I got an opportunity to come to the States in 1990 and in 2000 I joined FCA, then known as Francis Coughlin architects. I joined as a staff architect 24 years ago or so, and I kind of worked my way up through the company, and I'm now the president of FCA. I've been since September of 2022 so I graduated from Drexel University here in Philadelphia as well. On my path to becoming a register, registered architect, I came through the ranks at FCA on the project management side, so kind of a blend of of the business side of architecture as well as the, you know, project management, keeping projects on target and and obviously I, you know, from a board standpoint, it's it's really important that we keep the firm. We're in our 70th year, which is really important.

Rion Willard

07:25

Wow. How would you both describe your individual roles as president and principal, and how do they differ?

Speaker 2

07:37

Well, I'll go first. So as a principal of healthcare interior design, we obviously have other principals that are focused on corporate and everything, but healthcare is definitely a specialty. I work with all of our offices, and I really want to focus on working with all of my team. There's about 12 of us now. I believe that are really up to date on our education, on latest research. So I'm kind of the go between and making sure that everybody is kind of keeping that design level to a point where our clients expect of us, and that we're developing and producing work of the quality that you know, that we want, and ultimately award winning work that was, you know, one of my goals. So

Rion Willard

08:23

it's a real kind of design directorship there as well, and showing kind of design standards.

Speaker 2

08:29

Yeah, I, and my approach to that is letting others do the work. I'm not, you know, a dictatorial, if you will. I want other people to shine. I want to surround myself with people that are great at what they do, so that they can, you know, grow in their careers as well. That's kind of my approach to my my style. Well,

Rion Willard

08:49

that's, that's not, actually, it's not as easy as it sounds, to let other people do the work for an architect,

Speaker 2

08:55

Yep, yeah. It's not. It's not. How

Rion Willard

08:59

do you how you know in that, in that role of being able to successfully delegate kind of the work to other people? How have you, what sorts of things have you found been very successful for your in your in terms of leadership, to empower other people to be facilitating great design?

Speaker 2

09:18

I mean, first of all, it's hiring the right people. I think we've gotten really good at that. People have to be, you know, less about their ego and more about being part of a group and a collaborative group, able to kind of willing to share their ideas and mentor the young staff. So we have people that you know have have big ideas, talk about it, have those conceptual visioning sessions in in house. And not that I'm not giving my idea, you know, it's my design, but you know, we're all kind of putting towards it. And it's not on every project. Obviously they you know, all projects are not the same. Same. So I find myself maybe having touching and getting more involved in the in the bigger projects, less on the smaller projects. And that difference in project size really allows the more junior staff to have that freedom of developing their own ideas. And kind of, we still have touch bases and kind of check in on, you know, how are you doing? What are you working on, and just making sure that their their work product, is equal across the board. You know, the quality of renderings, how we're representing the work is all equal.

Rion Willard

10:29

Is it clearly laid out for you and the team about what the role is of the principle in the design project. So like, it's clear for you to know when you know you shouldn't be doing drafting or you shouldn't be getting involved in changing title blocks. I'm being extreme in that sense. But are those kind of that where your participation stops and starts? Is that clearly defined?

Speaker 1

10:55

Go ahead, I was going to say, yeah. I mean, it is. It has to be. And one of our successes is our ability to delegate and show leadership. So leadership doesn't mean we do everything ourselves. Leadership means that we we delegate. You know, we you know, I've used the term culture eats strategy for breakfast. So you can use the same mantra, if you always do everything yourself, you'll never empower other folks to to learn and grow. So at FCA, I think we're very successful in our ability to to delegate and, you know, respect the expertise where it resides, and when folks you know, when they know what they know or they know what they don't know, you can really work with them and and foster and nurture a collaborative environment where people can become thought leaders, and that's really important to the folks at FCA in

Rion Willard

11:48

terms of the company's age. So you were saying earlier that you guys are in your 70th year now, which means that you would have gone through a number of succession plans and different leadership teams. And you guys have got quite a sizable leadership team as a as a firm, and it could be a firm in it, like a small practice in itself. How have how many, how many successions Have you seen? And what makes it work?

Speaker 1

12:20

So I'll give you mine, and Jen can give you hers. I'm the fourth, fourth generation of leadership over the last 24 years at FCA, and I'm only the sixth president of the company. So generally, when presidents are elected by our board, and our board consists of seven of our 17 principals and shareholders. You know, our the concept is, is that we pass the firm from one generation to another using a transition plan. And our transition plan has been very successful. It was formulated in the in the in the third generation of leadership. And those, those leaders are preparing for retirement, having successfully transitioned the firm and its leadership onto the next generation. So we're currently working on our seventh and eighth level of leadership transition, which involves transitioning ownership of the company, the leadership roles, the influence that upcoming principals and shareholders in the company will have so that we leave a legacy for them and something that's very successful, which is what we are,

Speaker 2

13:28

I guess, from from my perspective, I, you know, I've come and gone a little bit from FCA, and so I've had the benefit of seeing how other firms are run, and it's kind of one of the reasons why I've came back and hopefully end my career at FCA, that it's just the culture of the firm and the style of the leadership is very and I've seen it in I think, three different leadership changes. It's always very approachable, it's always very open. I think even from a junior person's point of view, you can understand where the firm is going. They're very good about explaining as much as you can do the financials to all levels of the organization. And I think that's comforting to some people. I've been in other firms where there was not a State of the Union kind of address for three or four years, so you had no idea the status of the firm. So I think coming coming to FCA, to in a leadership position, I liked that aspect of it, that it that was part of the culture to be collaborative, to talk to one another, to support, be supportive of one another as leaders. It's tries to be as much as you can about the we and being caretakers of the firm for the next generation, which I think is important.

Speaker 1

14:54

And we weren't always like that. And that's a, you know, a very important cultural change we made during the third. Generation. So the older, older owners of the firm really believed in keeping things within themselves, not sharing a lot about the financials, not sharing strategy. But we've changed that, and we believe in a policy. And you know what you asked the question, Ryan of you know, how does our role differ from from being a principal of being a president or being a leader? And it is about, you know, my role is, is what I refer to as chief cultural officer. So I'm involved in, in maintaining the culture of openness, of expression, of, you know, just making sure that everybody feels included, feels informed. We've, we've done away with the secretive aspects of our business. We share everything, and we have an incredible mentorship program, so anybody who wants to know anything about any aspect of the firm, it's shared with them. So we believe in that open culture. It's not very common in our industry. I think it probably comes from the, you know, from a just from a good place, from good cultures, and people feel that, and they want to be part of the organization, because they feel included, because we don't, you know, there's very little we we keep secret in the firm, as far as our strategy is shared, our direction is shared. No, it's all very collaborative.

Rion Willard

16:12

I love this kind of transparency and and kind of spirit of collaboration in a in a firm, and I really love this dictum, culture, eat strategy for breakfast. And it's interesting as well, with a firm that has gone through so many kind of transitions, or, you know, it's multi generational. How then did you like, Are there pieces of the original culture of the firms, say, even 70 years ago, that are still retained. And how, how, as a kind of group of leaders, do you talk about what the culture should be, and how do you, how do you effectively design it and preserve it and make sure that, as you're kind of moving into the next transition, that these bits of culture are not just maintained, but also evolve and enhanced.

Speaker 1

17:05

So I think there's a I'll let you jump in on this one, Jen, but I think as far as the, you know, previous culture, obviously, as a design firm, you know, we're predominantly, that is what we do. We influence the built environment, and that's really key. I came up through through healthcare. So I've seen all aspects of of, you know, the evolution of the design space for healthcare. So as far as technology is concerned, and how it influences that the caregiver and Jen is very aware of all aspects there. But I think design, design, having a design culture, and maintaining a culture of design, is, is, is, is hard to do. But there's also the aspect of the fact that we are a firm and we are a family, so that's first and foremost, as far as our direction is concerned, is making sure that you know our month, you know when I interview candidates to join the firm, it's not about asking what the employee can do for the firm. It's about asking what the firm can do for the employee and and that's a really important aspect of it, because once you've got cultural alignment, once you've got a fit, if people are afraid of something or fearing something or unsure if they're going to fit in, it's very evident very quickly that that there's there would be a challenge there. So we're constantly looking for folks that share our common vision and goal for an open strategy of collaboration. Not sure if that answered your original question, Ryan, But Jen, do you want to throw something in there?

Speaker 2

18:34

Yeah, I think the cultural question over the years, you know how, and I wasn't around when it first started. So I think when I first joined the firm, we did a there was a different type of work that was done. There was a lot of science and technology work that was done at the firm. We did hotels, Macintosh inns, we did work for pico energy was kind of a little bit of everything, not necessarily all design driven, but there was definitely a culture of a of a really strong design director, architectural design director, that kind of created all of that angst that you sometimes get in a design firm, and I think that is something we acknowledged the future leaders. Didn't want that kind of culture of the cape and beret, kind of personality in the firm. And depending on that person can be neck a very negative for the culture of the firm. So I think that was something that has definitely changed. But then, without taking that, taking that person out of the firm, how do you keep that design focus? And I think by hiring those right people that are design focused has kind of helped. Not maintain the design integrity of of what we do, and keeping up the design quality. And there are some, you know, there's a architectural designer that's been here for 18 years that did work with those, those past regimes as well, but she's been able to kind of continue and and be collaborative and kind of adapt how she works. You know, with these the new leadership, they trust her does great work, but she does not have that personality. You know, it's a different approach to doing the work. So I think that kind of, where the start to where we are now is kind of, I've seen that change.

Rion Willard

20:39

What does the the the architecture of the office look like, like in terms perhaps we could talk a little bit about the the the number of principles that you have, and that leadership team, the number of offices, the number of kind of team, the people that are spread across that and then, how does it all work? How does it all fit together? What's the hierarchy, if any?

Speaker 1

21:01

So we just recently acquired a firm in Connecticut, which was a really big acquisition for us, about 30 people, and we've been working on it for about 14 or 15 months, and they're now part of the FCA family, and that's a very big step for us from a cultural standpoint, because again, 30 individuals, you've got to spend a lot of time with them, making sure that they feel respected, understood, they're going to be good contributors to the firm. So that that's our Connecticut office. We were founded in Philadelphia in 1954 as I said, as a small firm, most of our work is in healthcare. A large, abnormally large, portion of the work is healthcare. So we've diversified our portfolio somewhat, and since then, you know, about 15 or 16 years ago, Jen, we opened our New York City office, and that alone was a cultural shift, because there's a very defined culture in New York that that is not like the rest of the country. And then in 2020 we acquired a firm in Orlando and and and we moved a few of our Philadelphia staff down there again for cultural bridge bridging exercise, and picked up two partners down there, and they've been wonderfully successful. So we're now four offices spread, you know, from the east up and down the East Coast. But we also have a corporate practice that takes us around the country doing law offices, multiple locations for the law offices, and we've got a fairly active higher education portfolio. The firm structure is set up so that we have seven board members. Obviously, I'm chair of the board, and I've got two partners that predominantly own a lot of the firm's shares. And those firms, those shares, have been transitioned to them. And we have 1717 principals, for a total of 153 staff overall, or 152 staff overall, four offices. And then we have a we've got director level positions that guide the individual practice sectors. We've got a Financial Group, an IT group, human resource group, that all function across the platform of the firm for all offices and all locations. And then we've got a senior associate level and associate level. So that's kind of the way the firm is structured. And within those we don't have a true studio concept of architecture. We take each project. You know, I still do project management. I still manage some of my own projects. Client relationships are paramount to FCA. Most of our work is existing clients. We don't do a lot of we don't do enough of business development and expanding our client base, but we want to do more of it, but, but our our success is based on a repeat client doing great work for great clients.

Rion Willard

23:48

This acquisitions of other other firms. And I'm always, I always love hearing about this as a way of growing and merging cultures. But it's and sometimes, certainly in the UK, Architectural Press mergers are often viewed as a very aggressive sort of thing. I don't think that's true at all. They're often very thoughtfully done, and a lot of care is needed to make sure that cultures can actually work together. Can you tell us a little bit about what how did the strategy of acquisitions come about? Was it through previous collaborations with those firms and then it you decided to kind of expand upon a relationship? Or were they kind of had a particular niche market that they were serving that you wanted to enter into? Or was it more thought for talent? How did, how did those that come about?

Unknown Speaker

24:45

It's, it's a bit,

Speaker 1

24:46

it's a bit of all of that. It's, it's, really is a bit of all of that. You know, we set the strategy for the firm that we wanted to grow, but we know we don't want to be 1000 people. We're not interested in being that. We're, you know, we're, we're targeting somewhere in the next, you know. Five to 10 years to be around 200 people. So we find that growing, you know, we can grow organically, we can hire locally, but to be truly successful, we need to grow in large chunks and and finding like minded individuals is generally a game whereby I like to, I've heard somebody refer to it as you've got a date 10 frogs before you find a prince. So you can, you can, we've, we've, you know, we've talked to firms up and down the East Coast. We've talked to firms in Chicago, North Carolina, other firms just trying to find that cultural alignment that fit, you know, and generally, the firms that we acquire ones that want to grow themselves, and they want to have a bigger exposure, a bigger footprint, and they do that maybe because they don't have as robust a transition plan, but they want the best for their own employees. So when that kind of shines through it, it really is attractive to us. We have a company that helps us identify companies that are interested in growing, and if they share, you know, they share the values that FCA has. It's a lot of conversations, it's a lot of transition meetings, it's a lot of alignment to make sure everybody feels like we're not acquiring. We don't use the word acquisition. It's not something that we, you know, we, we the company that we've, we've just teamed with in Connecticut to form our New Haven office. We're, they're still going to retain their name, but they're just going to be called an FCA company, and, you know, that's because of the reputational design industry. That's who they're known for. And we're going to expand upon their portfolio, reach and expertise. Ah,

Rion Willard

26:42

interesting. So, so they're actually kind of retain their own kind of identity, and then there becomes, like a Skill Share and a talent share between the two offices, correct?

Speaker 1

26:54

And there will be a, there will be a transitional sunset period for their for their name, but in the meantime, you know, eventually they will just be FCA, but in the in the, you know, this transition period of, you know, their leader, their Managing Director, you know, wanting to retire and sunset his career, it is really important that we, we, we maintain that respect. And yeah, and, and, and, they maintain their reputation in the industry, because we don't want to be seen as this company that's buying up a bunch of companies. We don't do that. Our strategy is to continuously look for firms that would want to partner with us and grow with us. Yeah,

Rion Willard

27:32

and so how that's really interesting, this idea of kind of respectfully bringing in another company's culture and blending it and merging it with yours. What does that look like in terms of that communicating with actual employees and the team? I'm imagining that it can't be, you know, they can't all just suddenly, Monday morning, come in. It's like surprise. We're FCA now, but actually, there's a series of more sensitive conversations that are, are in, and that you're opening a kind of, you know, participatory interaction, if you like, or a conversation. It's

Speaker 1

28:10

true. I mean, not everybody shares all of those values, and everybody feels differently about having a larger company come in and be part of their culture. So, you know, you do get a very small amount of attrition. We've seen it in both both offices. We work very hard to make sure that that folks that that decide that a bigger firm is not for them and are worried about the culture, we work very hard with them, but it's inevitable that you're not going to get 100% alignment. And what's fascinating about the New Haven offices, they're actually helping and informing us about our policies and procedures, how they've treated their employees, their clients, their design objectives, their approach to art, their approach to design is helping inform our culture, and that's really and that's that's really encouraged and as part of our alignment, and they feel like we're not just going to come in and just take over all their business and just move on from there. They're part of a large collective,

Speaker 2

29:09

yeah, and we've taken efforts to kind of get to know their principles, their expertise, just specific meetings, just to have conversations with them about, you know, who they are and what they do, which I think has helped as well. I think also sharing, sharing our employees, having staff work with their employees is is going to help that cult, that cultural kind of integration over time is just kind of learning, the the skill set of our staff, and vice versa, that we are very similarly aligned culturally. And I think you just it takes a little bit more time, you know, just to get there. What

Rion Willard

29:47

kind of time frame are we looking at from from like initial conversations or the initial date, to the the marriage

Speaker 1

29:56

with this, the current New Haven. In office. We started talking to them about 14 and a half months ago, I believe, so you know, the last, you know, three, four months or all the technical issues associated with the legal requirements, but the conversations about alignment, about, you know, the valuation of their firm, which is obviously very important to any partners that are transitioning out. Many times we find these deals fall apart because the company feels as though they're worth financially more than the paper says they actually are. So when you've got alignment on the financial aspect of it, and we say, we think you're worth this, and they say, We know we're worth this, and when we have alignment there, it begins the other conversation. But I'm not going to sugar coated for you. There's always challenges. It's how you you confront those challenges to how you make everybody feel as though they're heard and they're listened to and they're understood. And it's not, it's not it's not pretty all the time. It gets messy, it gets tricky, it gets ugly. It turns into conversations about, well, who's going to pay for my parking at the office. It's down to the nitty gritty of it, but when you have the bigger picture of alignment, you know, it makes those conversations a lot easier. It's not about, you know, us being a behemoth that scares people away. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's about a larger conversation about what we want to do together.

Rion Willard

31:21

What does that valuation process look like? Is it a case of that they have their own kind of CPA or team of CPAs working, and they have their own valuation, and then you have your own team of valuers, and then you kind of you both have got different valuations for the company, and then you kind of come together and Hash it out in the middle. Or is it

Speaker 1

31:42

that's exactly, that's exactly how it happens? Yeah, they they have their own valuation techniques, and we have our own valuation techniques, techniques, and when you find alignment between the two, and many times that does not happen, as I say, nine out of 10 times, you know, they feel like their value is is more because they're valuing different things. So we value, you know, not just financially, but we value their their client base their, you know, terms with their clients. We value their contracts that are in hand, you know, we value the length of their relationships, that they've had, the ability to generate revenue in the future, ongoing revenue in the future, their attractiveness in the industry, which is really important. And there's a my rate of other factors that go into such as things like good will. There's a goodwill factor, which is involves the Share and share value of the firm, so that when they become vested, and they trans, we transfer, they sell their portion of the of their firm to be shareholders in FCA. You know, we were completely transparent about the financial aspects of of why we're successful and how we can make them successful.

Rion Willard

32:58

Do you have to have a kind of I'm imagining some, you know, in terms of their leadership and individuals that perhaps they had, you know, there might have been individuals in those other offices that had particular career trajectories, and they also want to continue that career director directory in the new merged organization. How do you manage some of those conversations, because they might be a completely new entity for for you guys, and I can imagine that there being a lot of nuance involved in that sort of thing. Yeah, for

Speaker 1

33:29

our for our Orlando team, it was slightly different, because it was a husband and wife team that had been in business since 1973 and the husband health was failing, and his wife was taking over the firm, and she basically wanted the best for her employees. She stated that from day one she wanted to transition to a large organization so that she knew that all of our tenured employees and some of her employees have been with her over 20 years, that if she did retire, that they would be taken care of. So there was a lot of conversation about about making sure that that we would transition them into a leadership role and understand where they were going. So it's slightly different conversation, and the valuation was obviously different as well the way we value those firms compared to the Connecticut office. Say so in the Connecticut office, the senior partner is hoping to retire in the next three to five years. He's transitioned much of the firm to the three other partners, but they're just looking for, you know, a growth. They want to expand their portfolio, their reach and their involvement with the larger organization. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship that that we have with them. And they'll do they'll do wonderful things together. You

Rion Willard

34:51

you touched upon there a little bit about the things that you guys perceive as being value or like, how you kind of attribute value? What are. Flags for you when you're looking at the other other businesses to kind of collaborate more in this kind of very deep manner. What would be things where you'd be like, Nope, that's not going to work, and we frighten you off.

Unknown Speaker

35:14

What do you think, Jen,

Speaker 2

35:15

I think it's the people, it's the egos. I think it's got to be the right cultural fit, and it's why it's taking the time it has to find the right firms. I think I haven't been part of that process personally, but I know it's a great deal of why it's taking the time it has. I think strategically, the firm has been looking to grow for, you know, probably since before COVID. And it's just, we've talked to a bunch of different firms over that time, and none has been the right fit. And it just has come down to like, that cultural fit, like, if it, if you're going to pair people up and have them work together, they've got to like each other, you know. And, you know, from the leadership on down,

Speaker 1

35:59

so they, I've mentioned the word egos, Ryan, that's a really important aspect of it, because traditionally, you know, architects were, as Jen used the term cape and beret, and you know, they are the the on the mystical designer that sweeps into the room with a bunch of colors and flashes a few beautiful images and says, This is what I envision for your building. This is what you will have. This is what I want for you, whether it aligns with their their aspirations or not. Architects have been known the industry to shove design down people's throats and say, This is what you want. So we're not that we've we're purposefully not that firm. We're a collaborative firm, and our expertise lies in our ability to collaborate, and we've won many awards, we've published many articles. We've got a lot of expertise and thought leadership around that. But as far as a red flag is concerned, if you if you find an individual, and I'm not saying they don't exist, they do. It's how you work with them, how you know, how you work, work closely with them, to bring them to feel valued. It's the red flag would be, if you've got somebody who's just so dug into their position that they're unwilling to to move, to change, to adapt, to accommodate those things, that that's probably the biggest red flag for me. Anyway,

Rion Willard

37:17

we were talking earlier as well about kind of you guys have a, like, a high level of financial transparency, where you're, you know, you're sharing strategy vision with the rest of the team, and then also kind of bits of financials. Does that also come into play where, like, a new, a new kind of part of the office, they've got to get used to that financial transparency? Or are you looking for firms that already have those kind of conversations? And I guess, on top of that, what? What sort of financial transparency Do you? Do you have? I mean, I'm assuming you don't share everyone's salaries. That would be that is probably problematic.

Speaker 1

37:54

That is the only thing when I'm mentoring when I'm mentoring candidates, that's the only thing I say to them in mentorship meetings. I can share any aspect of the firm with you. I can share our past, our present and our future. The only thing I cannot share salaries. But as far as that's as far as the rest of it is concerned, the financial structure of the firm is carried all the way from principles through the project managers that we individually work with. You know the success of their projects. Some projects make money, some projects lose money. And that's just the reality of it. We track, you know, we track how we are successfully. We are financially, success, success. You know? What another thing we do is we because, you know, because we're an S Corp. We were cash based business. So at the end of the year, if we make money, the idea is that we don't want to pay Uncle Sam, so we disperse our profits and our cash profits to the staff. So we go through a period at the end of our fiscal year, which is the end of September, where we essentially bonus the staff for the great work they've done, and that's based on the contributions, the financial success, all of those things. So we get rid of as much cash as we possibly can, and we distribute it to the

Rion Willard

39:08

firm, talking about the some of the niches that you guys occupy. And we've, you've, you said a lot about health care being, you know, that's one of the things where a large part of your portfolio has kind of come from, and we would, we were mentioning as well that one of the sort of thought leadership things that you guys are pioneering is this idea of biophilic design. Could you talk a little bit about what that is and how that kind of interacts as well with the culture that you've been describing of the firm?

Speaker 2

39:41

So it's kind of a passion of mine, biophilic design i i know, and it kind of comes why I grabbed onto it so much is that during design school, the big question that our professors asked would be, why? Why are you doing this? Like, give me the reason why. And. And biophilic design has so much about the why, based on your humans, kind of innate connections to nature. It's kind of, it's it's part of us. It's why we react certain ways to certain things. It's kind of our unconscious that we just don't realize that we have. And so it's, it's why I love it is that you can really, kind of tell a story to your clients as as part of our visioning and our design ideas. That it's not specifically for health care, you know, it's, it's really about a wellness, creating spaces that people humans want to be in. And why would you design spaces that people wouldn't want to be in? You know? Why would you design buildings that are not nice to people? You know? Why would you design spaces that you know are our body reacts negatively to? You know, causes stress versus causing, you know, creating spaces that, you know, lower your your heart rate, and you know, can cause relaxation spaces. So I think that kind of gives, kind of covers all of what we do, you know, all of our design. So it's why it's a passion of mine is it's more than just putting plants in spaces. It's kind of understanding the neurological the neurosciences behind design and how we can explain our design concepts and our stories that then our clients can go and take back to their board members or their teams to understand kind of why they're paying for our services, and why the end result is going to be beneficial to whoever's using it, whether it's a lawyer or a patient in a hospital bed like these spaces should be beneficial to everybody. So is

Rion Willard

41:53

it? Is it something that you guys use in the when you're kind of pursuing work that you promote as being like a skill or a service set that you have, or is it something that you introduce, like, you know, after you've kind of identified pains and problems of a certain client, and then you then you're like, actually, this approach, this biophilic approach, is, is actually the most sort of thoughtful solutions, definitely

Speaker 2

42:17

something that we talk To during kind of the interview proposal, kind of process that and our corporate team has a workplace strategy area of expertise that is so much about creating spaces that staff want to come to work and be happy and feel like it's a good place to be in, especially with The remote work, getting people back to the office, it's really important for them to talk about, you know, workplace wellness, which kind of relates to the biophilic design kind of ideas and concepts and principles. So it's kind of encompassing. So we it's important to start that conversation as to why you would hire us during an interview or a proposal process. It's definitely from day one. It might be worded differently. It might not be said as biophilic design. It's, you know, it's how you sell it.

Speaker 1

43:10

And I think you asked Ryan, you asked earlier on about how our our physical office environment impacts our staff. So we recently, just finished our renovation of our Philadelphia office, and obviously we downsized and took a lot, lot less space because we're we're still a hybrid company, so we still have a lot of employees that are spread across the country as a result of COVID. So we don't have offices. There's no no no partners of offices. Everybody shares our space. We use a software you choose where you'd like to sit if you want to stay in the open, if you want to sit in a quiet space, it's all open. It's a beautiful office, and embodies the design the way we see spaces for not only our clients, but also our staff. Also

Rion Willard

43:54

people have a different seating space every day if they wish, if

Speaker 2

43:58

they wish, absolutely, yeah, and that was based on research, you know, from our workplace expertise. You know, they sent out surveys, questionnaires to talk to all the staff members. How much time do they spend in the office? What do they do while they're here? What do they want to do while they're here, where they want to work, how they want to work, the types of meetings they're going to be having. So it was kind of a reflection of kind of their expertise.

Rion Willard

44:27

It's such a it's such a simple thing. And I can imagine from my own experiences of when I was working in a in an architecture office, like the the real desire or frustration, when I was sat in a certain place for months and months and ends and you're like, I just want to be somewhere else in the office, just having the freedom of being able to kind of move around and choose your location there being the definition of different sorts of work environments, I think that's very interesting. And I imagine must kind of enhance the kind of culture. Role aspects of the firm that you're trying to preserve or enhance, absolutely,

Speaker 1

45:05

it's really important. I mean, we've got all kinds of different flexible spaces, if you want to stand all of you know, the spaces we have are are flexible from you know, Jen is in one of the offices right now, and one of the quiet rooms, she can close the door if she wants to have a conversation. There's one room that looks like a living room. It's got a couch and it's got a TV and it's got, you know, flexible workspaces. So if you want to be out in an open area, if you want to be enclosed, you can go anywhere you want, in the office and and and have the connections with team members and the, you know, the we don't, although we don't have a water cooler as such, but it's the water cooler. Conversations are part of the culture.

Speaker 2

45:43

It's it has been designed from an interior perspective. Unlike an architectural office, it's not a white, pristine environment. It's more of the type of kind of details that you would find in your living room or, you know, in a hotel. My daughter came in here once, and it's like, it feels like a hotel lobby. It's just got flexibility. The lighting is perfect. It just feels really nice and calm, kind of to be in here. We're not all working at drafting tables anymore, you know, like, so we were all sitting at a computer the same as, you know, anybody else would be. So it's, it's definitely a nice environment to be in it

Rion Willard

46:21

you were mentioning that you're kind of working in a hybrid office scenario, when COVID happens, obviously everybody kind of starts from working remotely. How now is it? Do you Do you find that actually kind of maintaining culture, whilst you've still got people working remotely is become challenging or, or, have you found that actually having the beautiful offices means that nobody wants to stay at home, they want to come into the office, and, and, and therefore everything kind of has solved itself. Or, yeah,

Speaker 1

46:52

so it's a bit of it's a bit of both. You know, the board decided that we weren't going to mandate a return to Office, even though, in Philadelphia, you know, we were in lockdown for a period of time, but we do what we refer to as workday Wednesday. So if you want to be in the office, if you want to see the senior leadership of the office, we all try to be in the office on Wednesday. So we're employing what we refer to as the the draw strategy, rather than the push strategy. So, and it's been working very successfully for us to date. You know, we get a very high turnout of people that would normally be in the office five days a week before COVID. We, you know, we we bring in lunch for the staff. We do happy hours, we do community service, other bits and pieces on usually on our Wednesdays. So it's a draw strategy. I'm not sure how long that will last. I mean, I don't know if we're going to mandate a partial return to office. It's also different per office. So Orlando really, you know, they didn't really have a pandemic down there. They just kept going right on through and you know, they've kind of settled into nothing has changed for them. Whereas New York is a little bit more flexible, a lot a lot more folks come into our New York office and our Connecticut office. In fact, Connecticut had mandated that everybody was going to just maintain be in the office, and that's working very well for them. They feel very, you know, very comfortable in that, in that role environment. Again, it's flexible. We're not going to say, you know, mandatory five days in the office. People will get punished if they're not checking in and checking out. We're not that. We're not that group.

Rion Willard

48:25

Do you have any concerns about it? Say, Is it possible for individual team members, certainly younger team members, that you might that you can identify that perhaps they're spending too long at home, or they're working too much at home, and actually would be beneficial for them in their career to be in the office, and if so, how do you manage that, that kind of conversation?

Speaker 2

48:47

Jen, I think, yeah, I think definitely. I mean, it goes back to the mentoring. And I've just had this conversation recently that, you know, people that have just graduated never worked in an office pre COVID, like they don't know what it is. So coming from a perspective that they kind of got out they were lucky enough to get a job, they were working from home right away. So they do feel isolated. And I think they are, you know, when we talk to people, you know, less than five years experience, they are looking for connections and Leadership and Mentoring. So even though we are remote, we have been trying to be really specific about checking in. Myself and some of the senior designers have regular weekly check ins with everybody in the team, just to say, Hey, how you doing? Let's have a cup of coffee. What'd you do this weekend? Not necessarily talking about work, but works fine too, but just having those connections and just recognizing that, you know they it's needed. And there is, there's a lot of cultural things that are human resources. This group does as well that are virtual, you know, virtual bingo sessions, virtual, you know, lots of different stuff that kind of connects all the offices together. It's less frequent. And I think we've been trying to do more happy hours as well, just to kind of get those people out and just socializing as well.

Rion Willard

50:20

Great. I think we're coming to the our time here. But just looking ahead, obviously 2025, and obviously, there's been some big changes today in the in the US. How do you think some of these changes, you know, are they going to have a new president? Is that going to have much effect on how you see the construction industry and work, and what are your some of things that you're looking forward to being engaging in over the next 12 months or so?

Speaker 1

50:50

Well, from my standpoint, I'm hoping that there won't be much change. Obviously, the financial markets are reacting this morning, and you know, that's probably everybody's biggest concern. But I think as far as the biggest impact to our business, from a design standpoint or an architecture standpoint, is is the potential for rising inflation. So if inflation, if the new leaders cause inflation, and we interest rates rise, our clients have less money to spend, so they pull capital back so they cannot invest in their facilities. And that's something that we've we've seen, you know, for many years now, as the interest rates are too high, capital became too expensive to invest in healthcare institutions. So we're hoping that the financial markets take a deep breath. We've seen where it's gone culturally. But I think if we take a deep breath from an everyday financial standpoint, you know, I think we'll everybody will do just fine, as long as the inflation pressures and in and and interest rates capital, access to capital remains constant. Jen, have your thoughts on that

Speaker 2

52:03

only as it relates to money and budgets. I think we have to do more with less. Be more creative. You know, to still keep you know, keep on doing what we do so well, but it's just more of a challenge to create projects that are meaningful,

Rion Willard

52:22

good. Great stuff. Thank you so much, guys for sharing your expertise and experience and giving us a peek behind the scenes at FCA. Really fascinating kind of mini journey that you've taken us on there, and the history of the firm and the architecture and how it works. Absolutely amazing stuff, and very inspiring to hear of an organization being so transparent and kind of just putting, you know, really putting culture and the development of a healthy of a healthy, inspiring, collaborative workforce at the as a priority in business. So thank you very much for for your inspiration, and it's been a great show.

Unknown Speaker

53:07

Thank you.

Unknown Speaker

53:08

Nice talking with you,

Rion Willard

53:09

and that's a wrap.

Speaker 3

53:10

Hey, Enoch Sears here, and I have a request, since you are a listener here of the Business of Architecture podcast, Ryan and I, we love putting this podcast together, we love sharing information as much as we can glean from all the other industries that we're a part of to bring it back, to empower you as an architect and the designer, one thing that helps us in our mission is the growth of this podcast simply because it helps other architects stand for more their value spreads the business information that we're sharing to empower architects together, so architects, designers, engineers, can really step into their greatness, whatever that looks like for each individual. And so here my simple ask is for you to join us and be part of our community by doing the following, heading over to iTunes and leaving a review of the podcast, and as an expression of our sincere thanks, we would like to give you a free CEU course that can get you one professional development unit. But more importantly, we'll give you a very solid and firm foundation on your journey to becoming a profitable and thriving architect. So here's the process for that. After you leave us review, send an email to support at Business of architecture.com let us know the username that you use to leave the review, and we will send you that free training. On the training you'll discover what 99% of architecture firm owners wish they would have known 20 years ago, and the other 1% well, they just didn't even know that. They didn't know. Head over to iTunes and leave us a review. Now

Rion Willard

54:54

this episode is sponsored by Smart practice business of architecture's flagship program to help. Views structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners. We hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it about the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 engaged listeners each month. Interested in becoming a sponsor, please send us an email at support@businessfarchitecture.com. The views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation. Promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you be unstoppable. You.

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