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IHC Ep 57 - Audio | Otter.ai

IHC Ep 57 - Audio

disciplenations.org1h 8min

Dwight

00:04

The path to flourishing is fruitfulness. And so the question is, am I living fruitfully am I am I working with my life in a way today, that it will bear fruit, both in this world for goodness in my own life for health and well being and in others, and not focus on flourishing as much as but fruitfulness.

Luke

00:33

As Christians, our mission is to spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as you rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Scott

01:07

Welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. And I am Scott Allen, the president of the disciple nations Alliance, joined today by Vice President Dwight Vogt, Luke Allen and Tim Williams. Hi, guys. Hello, wait, a great to have you here. And today, we're going to talk about the subject of biblical flourishing and abundance and prosperity and the confusion that surrounds that topic. At the DNA, you know, when we talk about kind of our goal, it's to see communities thrive and flourish, and to really be all that God wants them to be, and not just communities but lives and families. And I know at different times, we've gotten pushback on that from different people who say, Oh, you are promoters of the prosperity gospel at the DNA? And I say, No, no, we're not promoters of the prosperity gospel. So there's a real confusion in the church around these subjects, because there is a real thing called the prosperity gospel, that's heretical. But that doesn't dismiss the biblical concept of flourishing and thriving and and abundance that we read about in the Scriptures. And so Dwight, you especially have really wrestled with this topic. And Dwight has written a book called made to flourish. excellent book, and we'll reference that later on in the in the podcast, but I know you've given a ton of thought to this and have wrestled with this in your own life based on your own experiences. And so I really wanted to have you kind of lead our discussion today and set it up and and we'll see if we can come to some, some biblical clarity, some biblical worldview clarity on this subject.

Dwight

02:57

Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot, Scott. And thanks a lot, guys. I'll just share my story a bit and try to set up the discussion. And then we'll take it away. And we'll see where it leads, as we always do. One tangent after another. But anyway, yeah, I grew up in a Mennonite home, and the son of a pastor. And I learned early on that excess was wrong. And by excess, I remember my grandpa didn't have white sidewalls because that was access. He didn't have drapes in his house because they didn't need to shut the window. So why have drapes? It's just you know, access for beauty. We had one new car as I was growing up, and I think it was because there was no old car that we could buy that would work. I used car. And but I remember the moment

Scott

03:46

that was bad to own a new car. It was it was excess. Yeah, it was excess, which was, which was what's wrong with x.

Dwight

03:52

I remember a friend later on five years ago, Dave Evans, he said, Dwight, the good thing about us Mennonites, so because he has a Mennonite background, I think too, and he said, you know, we're all bottom feeders, but we've got to have somebody who buys new cars or will never find a used car. That's right, we have to have buyers. Anyway, bottom feeders, but I remember the most painful I remember as a as a 1516 year old guy, you know, we loved water ski. We had the Willamette River nearby and and Susan or we had to we had to find friends that had dads who had boats. And I said, Dad, can we buy a boat? And it's like 16 and we could reuse it for skiing all summer long. And he goes, you know, son, we I'm a pastor of a Mennonite church, we cannot own a boat. And I said why not? He goes because that's excessive. Right? And I'm like, Oh my goodness. So anyway, I have this theme of real you know, rich Chris then you have Ron sider rich Christians in an age of hunger you have the prosperity gospel movement that went sweeping through the United States and, and and Latin America. And you know, our our role models are Mother Teresa. And, you know, the Apostle Paul. And anyway, and it wasn't so much that not that it wasn't so much I heard that love of money was evil, but maybe just money was evil, because of its potential for becoming an idol, you know. And anyway, so there's this tension. There's this tension, tension between wealth and frugality between the appearance of wealth and looking frugal, then there's this huge tension between, you know, flourishing and suffering and focusing on the spiritual and focusing on the spiritual, the secular or the physical, the sacred secular divide, as we put it,

Scott

05:45

we shouldn't be focusing on heaven and not the things that deserve right. Yeah. And yet,

Dwight

05:49

I remember even on that, I remember as a boy, going to Wednesday night prayer meeting, and it struck me that the prayers really weren't for spiritual things they were for, and, you know, Aunt Jemima or aunt, Sally's healing, or, you know, Uncle Frank needed a job or so and so had had suffering with something, and it was always physical prayers, and we prayed. But we couldn't actually talk about that, or, you know, there's just this tension. And so, you know, I guess I was blessed to, to do a little bit of thinking on it. And then I come to the DNA, and we have this worldview, the kingdom, start listening to you and Daryl, and I'm going, Oh, my goodness, we have a bigger picture going on. And so I think that was the impetus for me thinking through and writing that little book, a little primer called made to flourish. God's designed for all individuals, communities, and nations. So

Scott

06:43

well, as I'm listening to you, Dwight, I'm thinking you you're mentally background is unique, right? So excess, or any kind of displays of wealth, or I mean, even simple things like drapes. I mean, that's, that's, you know, that that's a very, I would say, in the United States or even in the world. That's pretty, that's pretty narrow. That's pretty small group of people. Yeah, it is, I would say most of the error on this subject is on the opposite extreme. And I say this, you know, obviously, being a Christian who's worked with churches around the world, especially in African Latin America, where the, the faith, Christianity has been kind of conceived of as a means to wealth and prosperity and getting that new car or that new house and what this prosperity gospel I think, is a much bigger issue today.

Dwight

07:37

bigger issue, but I think in my world, and even in the church I attend now there's always this underlying current that it's not good to be rich, or you be careful. Be careful. You know, don't don't there's always this Oh, you kind of have to apologize if you have a new car, you know, or something. I don't know. I

Luke

07:57

I still know. Yeah, I get that. Yeah, I get that. I've seen that in my circles too. It's like, if you're if you come from money, it's not exactly how you introduce yourself. It's kind of like my parents are, you know, you don't really want to say it's like, oh, you know, and, you know, it's kind of the pushback because people recognize the prosperity gospel, you know, it's growing like crazy right now. That's spreading around the world. Yeah. So you know, it's it's it's very fair to recognize that and see it as you know, something that's not biblical not aligned with us and we want to stay away from but you know, the unfortunate side of that is we lose a beautiful biblical concept prosperity.

Dwight

08:41

Well, here's, here's where I landed. Let me give me another two minutes. Yes. Okay. Here's where I landed thanks to you guys. But, you know, we talked about are you a Genesis one Christian or a Genesis three Christian? Are you looking at God's intentions for life from, from his from what happened in creation and the Garden of Eden? Are you looking at God's intentions through the lens of the fall, and the brokenness and so we tend to focus on Genesis three where our purpose is to reverse the fall. But then we don't go well. What was if you reverse the fall, what is your purpose, then? Yeah, well, your purpose is

Scott

09:16

not intended for at the fundamental foundational level, right?

Dwight

09:20

What did God intent? Yes. So when you've accomplished all of your social justice missions, what do you have left? What

Scott

09:26

are you aiming for?

Dwight

09:27

What are you aiming for? Exactly? And I love some man, some people have done this much better than I did, but just the unpacking of Genesis one. And looking at at God, first of all, you know, we all know that he said, Very good, or you said good after every day of creation. This is good. And when God says good, it's a real strong good, it's not like so so good. And then of course, he ends that chapter, Genesis 31, with very good and then you know, he gives pictures of multiplication with the birds swarming in the foot are teaming and fish teaming. And there's life everywhere. And it's multiplying, and it's growing. And then He gives us His command to multiply and fill the earth and rule over it. And tells us to work the garden in chapter two to make it produce, to care for it to create something, he gives us good gold. And when he talks about the minerals, why would you have good gold except to do something with that gold, right? And here we have this picture. And then when you go, you know, at the end, he's going to take us back to this garden of Eden. Yes,

Scott

10:31

yes, I

Dwight

10:32

even had a friend who was preaching last Sunday. And he pointed out that remember the story when the Israelites were in Babylon? And and God says, you know, there's the river Euphrates is flowing into Babylon. And he says, What are you supposed to do there? He says, they said, he said, plant gardens, build houses, and grow your families. Basically, he's taking them back to Genesis one. Yes. Is what are you supposed to do? And Babylon in exile? You are supposed to live Genesis one life? Yes. You're supposed to bring flourishing to this world. Yeah. And then the question is, well, how do you do that in a way that doesn't result in idolatry? That is content just fallen? Yes, we can start to idolize everything you see. In Genesis one the good fruit to eat? I'm gonna live for a good bite of Apple. Yeah, well, that's, that's just pure idolatry, if that's your entire life, is that Apple and goodbye, or whatever you find, then, you know, you've crossed a line, but that does not diminish God's call for flourishing. And we see this all through Scripture. Luke, you know, I think you were talking about this earlier before the podcast just throughout proverbs throughout Psalms, you know, that promise of blessing and flourishing and goodness. One more point. Yeah, even even the word shalom, you know, we talked about this word peace in the in the Hebrew Old Testament. And it's throughout the throughout the Bible. And it's a it's a focus, it's important. And it's this idea of shalom, which means peace. But really, it means wholeness. It means well being. It means completeness. It means every part of life functioning as God intended it to function. So it's really the most flourishing word we can capture. Is this word. Shalom. Yes. And it's throughout the Bible. Yeah. So we've got to, you know,

Scott

12:27

I love what you're doing here, Dwight, by going back to Genesis one and two before the fall and just exert observing, you know, what was the world like that God created that he put us into. And it's a world of incredible abundance and incredible variety, and designed to do that, and designed to do that. And God was pleased in that, like, you know, just just take one verse, you know, he talks about the trees producing fruit of all different kinds, and they had different flavors, and you could enjoy all of those flavors. Now, he goes on and says, but there's one right you know, there's one, but you know, when we focus on that, but but just just think for a minute of, of all that God provided he didn't have to do it that way. You know, he could have said, that would be excessive, excessive. But he did it. That wasn't his heart. You know, you

Dwight

13:19

mana. That's what I'll give you. Yeah, right. Right.

Scott

13:23

I was just reading to you know, and you're right, it's bookends, right? So there's Genesis one and two before the fall. And then there's the new heavens and the new earth at the end, you know. And so those are the two bookends. And I was just reading this morning in my my kind of Bible reading devotion time, Isaiah 25 Six, and I'll just read it to you here it says on this mountain is a picture of the new heavens and the new earth, the New Jerusalem on this mountain, the Lord Almighty, will prepare a feast of rich foods for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine, the best meets the finest choice wines. You know, and Jesus talks about that bank with it's going to happen, you know, you know, and there's something that's really beautiful and wonderful about that. So I think these passages are getting it at this biblical idea of flourishing of thriving and, to me, what helps me Dwight to make sense of it, too, is, is just God's father heart, you know. He wants good things for his children just in the same way. I want good things for my children. I want them to flourish, to thrive to really enjoy and get the most out of life.

Dwight

14:34

And it allows you, for example, you've got a son getting married this weekend. Yes. And you're gonna have a you're gonna feed the feed everybody the whatever, yeah. And then you're gonna have a rehearsal dinner rehearsal dinner, and then you're gonna have a banquet at the wedding prom. Correct. Basically, you are there, reflecting in a very small way. God's intentions for flourishing. Yes. I mean, in the sense itself. warmth of worship, you may be enjoying it. But you are reflecting God's intentions through that celebration. Absolutely. But whose spiritualize is that? We should.

Luke

15:17

Hi, friends, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope this discussion is as encouraging to you as it was to me. As we've mentioned many times here on ideas have consequences. We would love to hear your feedback about this podcast on our episode, landing pages, or on social media. And we are the disciple nations Alliance on Instagram and Facebook. And the episode landing pages are always linked down in the show notes below. But again, if there's anything that you would like to hear, or ask about, or you'd like us to respond to, we would love to hear your topics, input and insights. We are so thankful for your support and time and want to make sure that this show helps you think biblically about everything, and how to apply the biblical worldview into every area of your life. After the episode, if you're interested, I have a few resources that I'd like to highlight during the conclusion of this podcast. So stick around to hear those.

Scott

16:08

Luke, you know, before we were when we were talking kind of heading into the discussion, you were saying you struggled with this. You were referencing some passages in, in Proverbs in particular, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Explain that.

Luke

16:23

Yeah. So I'm excited for today's discussion. I wanted to talk about this for a while. Proverbs is probably my favorite book in the Bible to read through, I just love going through it. And I'm currently going through it in Psalms right now to start off the year. And once again, I'm struck by how often proverbs and Psalms uses these words of flourishing and prosperity. And I've had a hard time recognizing that because like we've already laid out really well is there's these two, these two concepts in the Bible. One is that in this world, we will have trouble and will have tribulation, and we're here to suffering is part of the package, you know, we should expect that in which it's gonna come. And then on the other side, Genesis one, you know, portrays bounty, and even excess, like, we were just saying, you know, even more than enough, God's just giving us so much goodness. So how do you reconcile that? And so, yeah, in Proverbs, you see that all the time. It's, I mean, almost every chapter. And if you live in this way, you know, it's always the usually the foolish person versus the wise person and the wise person will have will live longer and will have riches and wealth and prosperity and all of these things. And then the fool you know, we'll have the opposite to usually, just two days ago, I read through where it was, I was in Proverbs eight. And priors eight is about wisdom and wisdoms call. It's a beautiful, beautiful proverbs. And it starts out verse one, does not wisdom, call out does not understanding raise your voice. So then you kind of work your way through all of that. And then you get down to verses verse 18. And it says, with me, that's referring to wisdom, our riches and honor, and during wealth and prosperity. So at first you read that and you hear riches and honor and other really, you know, at first glance, you're like, nice riches and honour sounds good, you know? And then prosperity like I like it. But then, you know, is that really what we're supposed to have? I don't think so. You know, and it gets confusing when you have that really surface level analysis. And then you back in verse 10. It also says, Choose instruction rather than silver knowledge rather than gold. For wisdom is more precious than rubies, nothing you desire compares with her. And then you're like, okay, so no, no riches and wealth. You know, and it's just, it can be confusing at that face, at first at first glance. So, I think in Proverbs in, in a lot of the Bible, it's not talking about physical things so much, even though we do see that in Genesis, as we were just talking about in Revelation with the final feast, but it also, wisdom brings about other types of prosperity, you know, a joy filled life, no matter how hard that life is, is, I would say a prosperous life. It's a there's there's bounty there. So when you read these verses, Dwight, in Proverbs is

Dwight

19:31

there again, I think that if if we do a deep dive on flourishing, we have to get past prosperity and silver and gold. Because if that was our definition of prosperity, just something material, something material and gleaming in front of your eyes, or even food. But if you think of the word shalom and you think of how the relational emphasis of shalom in terms of our relationship with creation relationship with God relationship with one another Um, it's a very, very broad, and rich and we all know what Shalom feels like. And sometimes some of our, our most our best moments aren't surrounded by wealth.

Scott

20:11

And you can you can be surrounded by wealth and have your relationships broken and be miserable, right? big

Dwight

20:16

hearted, right? Yeah, next day, you're walking in the forest all by yourself, you know, with bad tennis shoes, and you're feeling the joy of God's presence. You know, but

Scott

20:27

just to clarify what I hear you saying, Dwight, is that, you know, we can't reduce this idea of abundance or flourishing to any one of these things. Really, you know, in some ways, it's certainly not the material one although you don't discount that either. Because Luke, your your references and Proverbs I think are, you know, in some ways are kind of literal, you know, the way i By the way, guys, correct me if you think I'm wrong, when I understand Proverbs, it's kind of, it's a book of Wisdom. It's, it's, it's living in a way that aligns with the way that God created the world and created ourselves. And when you do that, when you live, you know, in light of the world, the way it really is that there really is a God, and He's created us in His image. And he's given us a particular purpose in life, when all of those things are kind of aligned. And you're living that out. The natural outworking of that is abundance and prosperity in a general rule in a general way, you know, you'll tend to do well, you'll tend to make money, you'll tend to, you know, you'll tend to know this is, this is Proverbs, it's general, it's not, it's these aren't promises like this is definitely going to happen to you. We do live in a fallen world. And you know, there's all sorts of bad things that happen, right? There's diseases and death and dandruff as my pastor would sometimes, hey, there's all these bad things that happen. But, but as a general rule, if you're living in the way that God designed you to live the natural outworking of that is just flourishing. Right? What are your thoughts on that way?

Dwight

22:02

Yeah. In my, in my book, I tried to unpack some of these things. It's like, what's God's designed for flourishing? What's our role in God's design for flourishing? What's the place of suffering? God's designed for flourishing? And then what's his role? And I just touched on those briefly, but I think, you know, I think you're here you're talking about what's our role? And if we do our role, we it results in flourishing, but that's also God's. That's God's design. That's his

Scott

22:34

design.

Dwight

22:34

He does. So So then I said,

Scott

22:36

and that's Proverbs, it's living in God's design, it's the wisdom to do that. And

Dwight

22:41

then I looked deeply at you know, that and said, How can I summarize this so that we can I can say something profound, but something simple in a tiny book, and, and there, you know, I think we land on what we see as major worldview concepts, which is, what is our role with God and float and flourishing. And I think that that our role there is to worship the Creator, and not to go into idol worship, because as soon as we switch to idol worship, we're now worshiping that piece of fruit. We're worshiping our bank account, we're putting our trust in this, we're putting our trust in our health, we're putting our trust in our gym membership. And we've now put, we're taking God out of his place, as the creator of all these good things that we serve and worship, to making one of these things are our idol. And so, you know, I feel like that's primary in terms of flourishing, if you don't have a sense of who God is, and how he is the provider. You'll you'll you'll be led astray

Scott

23:41

and you won't flourish, you won't flourish. And see, this is the thing, I think, you know, in fact, I was just hearing recently, some research that was done here in the United States. And they were talking about families that were extremely wealthy, you know, there's a certain percentage of people that are kind of amongst the extremely wealthy all of us, the United States at some level, almost everyone is pretty wealthy in a global perspective, but, but, but the outcomes for their children in that particular group, it was interesting, were were pretty negative. They struggled with all sorts of issues of hangups and depression and they really struggled. And again, there's many reasons for that I'm not saying you know, I'm sure it's complex but but but to elevate you know, material wealth and to almost make it a god and again, I'm not make drawing judgment on anyone who's really wealthy here, but it doesn't lead to flourishing. That's my point here. It doesn't it that doesn't lead to flourish, and that can lead to real brokenness. Yeah. Or any

Dwight

24:43

material thing or any material thing maybe your looks or when I look in the mirror is now my idol, you know,

Scott

24:50

yeah. And in a in a fallen world. Our heart naturally just wants to create idols. That's what we do. Post. Yeah, Genesis three, we're constantly So it's hard, isn't it? It's hard to get back to what does God really want Genesis one and two and in the new heavens in the New Earth, and in a fallen world, we struggled with that right? So let

Dwight

25:09

me touch on the last the three points that I think I landed on one was our relationship to God, which is worship and not worshiping things, but our Creator. The second one is our relationship to one another. And, and I think there I just summarize, it's to love your neighbors yourself. And I think if you do a deep dive on that idea of people who serve themselves they become, well, first of all, the Narcissus is the last person you want to be. Because they're completely consumed with selfishness just Yes. You can never say oh, if you look past the flourishing is narcissism. Nobody would ever say that. Or to be the most selfish person in the world. That's the path No, we know that the path is through service of thrift serving one another. I remember Dabo Swinney, that football coach for Clemson when they won the national title, and somebody said, What did you tell your players before the game? And he said, I told him to love one another. Because if they love one another, well, they'll do their part to the best of their ability for the benefit of their, their colleagues, they're playing multiplayer. And together, they will succeed, and they will win. And I'm thinking what, what a magical formula for flourishing?

Scott

26:23

Absolutely the you know, that's so fundamental. But there's, there's a film, you guys haven't seen it, it's it's really worth watching. It's a true story of football story. It's called when the game stands tall. And it's about a football team and in the Bay area of California, that it's a Catholic school, private school, but it one more football games than any team of any sport at any level in the history of the United States. I mean, he had this winning streak that went on, I don't know, for how many games and the coach had a very similar philosophy, you know, he taught them to love one another, and to get outside of this kind of self focused self absorbed, you know, mindset. And that was kind of, in his view, the secret sauce that led to that success.

Luke

27:09

So yeah, and I mean, tying that back to Proverbs, like you were saying that they're, these are the principles for how to live the life that God has formatted for us. So you know, in football, if you take a biblical principle, love one another. Not only is that great for you, as human beings and your relationships with one another, but a lot of times, yeah, it will probably lead the winning, winning more winning games has good outcomes.

Scott

27:33

I think that's basically

Dwight

27:33

that you, you follow God's design, you can't help but succeed a little bit.

Scott

27:38

And I think that is kind of in some ways, the message of Proverbs, right, it's, you know, there's these two, there's these two paths. One is to align yourself with God's ways, the ways that aligned with his reality and who we are and our relationships, the others to turn from it. That's folly, and there's going to be good outcomes.

Dwight

27:57

And we talked about this in the DNA. We talked, some people say, Well, how can a nation that's not basically totally Christian flourish? We go, well, it's got a biblical worldview in this area. And so it follows God's design. And guess what? something good happens.

Scott

28:12

But the the pushback I get when I say when I talk that way to some people, Dwight is well, then what do you make of all these people who, through no fault of their own, they're living out God's design, but they're struggling, they're suffering, they are persecuted, they're in prison. They're

Dwight

28:30

going to now we're going to have suffering, okay.

Scott

28:34

But I do hear that because, you know, it's like, you know, you're saying, if people follow God's design, that they're going to, they're going to flourish, they're going to thrive, but I'm seeing people that are following God's design, like I think of Christians in China today, who are really suffering and

Dwight

28:52

older but, Tim, you got your, you want to say sure, yeah,

Scott

28:56

yeah, Tim, you gotta just jump right.

Dwight

29:00

Before you go to suffering, but anyway, go ahead. Okay. Sorry.

Tim Williams

29:04

Yeah, you know, I mean, my mind's gone a lot of places in this conversation, but one of the things that I think about is just the life of Joseph and you know, the last part of Genesis I mean, Joseph is someone who, you know, let's let's talk about he goes in with PATA first wife and he's doing everything right you know, he's doing it the Proverbs way. He's doing it God's way. And then he's thrown into prison. You know, she doesn't like it. She he's not doing what she wants him to do. And yet he has a choice in that prison. Am I going to be you know, sour and you know, sit here and lay down and die? No, he continues to serve he continues to do you know, the, the way God's designed the Proverbs way. And then it takes time. You know, he's not immediately out of that prison. It takes time. It takes years. He friends common friends go and they're, you know, in and out. And, and then years, you know, finally he's remembered. And then he comes into a place where he's able to live out God's leadership, he's in a place to experience abundance. And, you know, he continues to have to make choices just as we all do you know, in those positions, are we going to live out of a place of forgiveness? Are we going to do what's best for others? Things like that. So my, my, my mind goes to Joseph, bad things can still happen. Yeah, we still have choices to make.

Scott

30:32

That's helpful. Yeah,

Dwight

30:33

I have some thoughts on suffering, too, because I, you can't talk about flourishing without suffering. We have one more point on flourishing in terms of God's design, you know, what's God's purpose for us in terms of his relationship with him? Yeah, what's God's purpose for our relationship with one another, and then what's God's intention for our, our relationship with the world, the material world, the creation itself, nature. And there, it's, it's clear, and we get it right there in Genesis 127. And it is to rule to have dominion to the cultural commission, it's to take take what God has provided in this world, and do something with it to produce something good, yeah, to to make good to bring healing,

Scott

31:19

made and make it better make make it a better place. Exactly.

Dwight

31:21

And so the path of flourishing is work. It is to it is to produce and to do good it is to it is to accomplish something that helps your neighbor and yourself, but results in good and doesn't, doesn't take away but adds it's a it's a multiplication, it's a fruitfulness, as opposed to a diminishment and a destruction, and a robbing. And, and, and that leads to flourishing.

Scott

31:53

Actually,

Dwight

31:54

you cannot get away from that principle. As soon as you do, and you take a life where I'm not going to work, I'm not going to work hard, I'm not going to produce, I'm going to steal, I'm going to take I'm going to cheat you you go the opposite direction. And we have countries that have chosen that and they they end up broke,

Scott

32:12

right? know for sure that relationship that we have with creation and living in God's way, you know, in alignment with God's purposes for our relationship to the physical world, and especially work and under a proper understanding of work. Yeah, will lead to flourishing and prosperity. I mean, you could just go back to the story, you were talking in the story of Joseph, and there was this famine, and essentially, God gave wisdom to Joseph on how to work during those years of famine that in a way that would lead to prosperity, which it did for Egypt. But the point, the point there that story tells us was so that they would have an abundance to share with the rest of the world. And that's what happened, you know, and it would save their lives and it saved saved their lives and be a blessing to the rest of the world. So and yeah, and they

Dwight

33:00

said that Joseph was especially clever at this, yeah, God gave him the gift of wisdom. The last point, and we'll just touch on this briefly is and I didn't initially land here, but the more I thought about it was the seventh day of rest that God gave to mankind, and ended up reading a book about God's wrath. And just, this is a small point. But I think one of the challenges when we think about serving God and living as he intended us to live, we worship Well, we love well, and we sacrifice to love one another. And we produce well, and we sacrifice and work and strive and try to produce good. But there's this other point, we're also supposed to take sit down and rest around I think we really air and the rest part not some people don't rest at all. And others rest too much. Or they rest in a way that doesn't restore themselves, but actually takes away from themselves. So you end up weekend, less centered, you know, more, more tired, I guess. But anyway, this idea of resting well and that means how do we handle entertainment? How do we handle music and the things that restore our souls? You know, that's all part of God's intentions for us that that entertainment and books and media that would that would add to our lives not take away from it. So it's, it's terribly important, but we we have to learn how to manage it too. So it's this whole entertainment rest rest area.

Luke

34:31

You Yeah, and I think with that point, on resting that can also help with you know, all of these good things out there that there's so many good things but when you take them too far, like we were saying earlier, it becomes idolatry and taking time to rest and step back it's a good chance to recognize that you're not in control he's like, you know, if you get too tied to you know, a life of money you think you just need to work all the time you know, kind of like grinder mentality. He's got to keep grinding, you know, 24/7. And not only is that very harmful for you as a physical person, because we need to rest. But it also makes you think that it's all in your hands like you can totally control it. The more you work, the more money you get. And every once in a while stepping back, letting go of that, in no way is a good is a good posture to idolatry.

Dwight

35:22

Yeah, and to stop and enjoy God's creation, there's just this very clear that God wants us to enjoy what he created, and to be restored through that enjoyment. And, and so, you know, Luke, you talked about going paintballing, it had such a good time, that was God's intentions for you

Scott

35:41

to win did Luke's talk about paintballing, I'm sorry,

Dwight

35:44

not in this podcast. You can edit that out

Luke

35:48

over the weekend. It was fun. Look,

Dwight

35:53

I know from earlier conversation that you went paintballing over the weekend, as a form of God's rest, you know, because it can be a time of fun and relaxation and loving one another and enjoying one another and being restored.

Scott

36:06

Right. So I think that the Bible teaches very clearly that when we when we align with or when we function according to God's design in his plans, then we can expect you know, there to be good things flourishing, thriving and abundance, but we can't. But there's a couple of pitfalls to this too. One is that we make that an idle, right? And you think about, you know, again, you were talking about there's so many stories in the Old Testament Tim, that really help on this discussion, the story of Job is one. Another one is Solomon himself, who was, I think he was an example of somebody who, you know, early in his life he was following. I mean, he was, you know, he's one of the great wisdom writers of the Bible, he understood God's wisdom and was living in a way that aligned with it. And it led to incredible prosperity not just for himself, but his kingdom. But then it became an idol. Right, right. And it went south from that point, you know, so actually,

Dwight

37:04

any of those things can become an idol loving your neighbor can become an idol. You know, you're, you're defined by how you serve other people, you know, that becomes your identity, no, as an idol now,

Scott

37:14

and it's just true that we live, let's go back to this. You know, you're saying that if we follow God's design, it'll lead to prosperity? And people will say, and I've heard this many times not, you know, no, it doesn't. I know many Christians who are living according to God's design, but are suffering. So what's your response to that tweet? Like, does that negate does that negate your earlier point? And if not, why not?

Dwight

37:37

Well, suffering is a whole nother category. But it's an important one, I think, because, like you said, I have four thoughts, and I'll throw them out there. And you guys can shoot me down, but ever. One is, I think we forget that we live in a fallen world. Yes. And, you know, once we accept Christ, you know, he can protect us. He's a good God, He's omnipotent. He's all powerful. He's omniscient. And his will for me is good. So he will protect me from all hardship and suffering. Do you live in a fallen world you did not step out of this world. By coming into the family of Jesus, the family of Christ will

Scott

38:16

protect you in some way, put some customers action around you, and you will never experience the effects of this fallen world. Yes, still live here. And not only not only do you live here, actually, Jesus calls us into that world. Well go into that world that fallen world so

Dwight

38:30

you know, so my Ambassador hurricane is heading for your house in North Carolina, Tim, it's gonna hit your neighbor, and it's gonna hit you. You know, it was a God's plan for your neighbor, I don't know. But it's a fallen world. And hurricanes are part of that fallen world that destroy and kill at times. So one is just, I think we forget the fact that we live in a fallen world and that's reality. And, and it's not going to change until, you know, Christ comes again. But the second one is, you know, also, you know, we talked about consequences of sin. Obviously, some suffering comes as a result of bad decisions, bad choices. What about the person living in a country? He's a wonderful person, but he lives in a country that's that's established itself on bad ideas. Yeah, really harmful ideologies, theology, right? By Nietzsche just suffering they suffered because they live there, you know,

Scott

39:25

increasingly, that's our story in the United States, actually.

Dwight

39:29

Whatever, you know, it's it's part of the fallen world, but also we and we make decisions with our own lives, that can result on our own suffering.

Scott

39:38

And there's just persecution, too, you know, I mean, there's just the reality that Christians people that are following God's way very often will be persecuted Jesus says expected in the Sermon on the Mount and rejoice in it actually.

Dwight

39:51

I want to tie that thought to something so many times in the Bible that says you are to pursue good you know, your your We are credited for his life, we are His workmanship created for good works, that we should walk in them. And one of the realities of living in a fallen world and working towards good is that to do that, you experienced some level of suffering, I'm going to, I'm going to minimize this probably in your thinking because you know, it's, it's not persecution in China. But back to a football player. If a football player wants to be Excel and that team to do good, what do they have to do? They have to have to suffer. I mean, if you're going to succeed in school, what do you have to do? You have to sign up to work hard. You have to work hard, but that's as hard as a suffering. It's a self denial. You can't get wet on Sunday night, you got to get into your books and study for your test in the morning. That's not no fun. You want to have health in your body? What do you got to do? My son got up this morning at four o'clock to go to the gym at that that's pure suffering. I mean, literally, that a snow morning, so I guess he didn't go but but to me, oh, that's the fact is that when we and we are called as Christians to pursue good. And so Wilberforce says, Hey, good, I see that's worth pursuing is to end slavery in England. Did he suffer for that good? Oh, my goodness, there was no end. But so we if we choose to follow God's will, for us to do good, and to love one another, you will suffer. And the more you do that, the more you will suffer. It's

Scott

41:32

if you push back against the effects of this fallen world and the forces of evil behind it will suffer. You're gonna head right into the jaws of suffering, right? You're

Dwight

41:40

pushing back against that for the purpose of good I think of this

Scott

41:43

what Jesus said for the joy set before me I endured the cross. It's that idea, right? Yeah, exactly.

Dwight

41:48

I think of this, this pastor in China that's been in prison now for two years with the early early reign church, you know, he was looking for, I mean, he was pursuing good he wasn't trying to overthrow the Chinese government. He was pursuing good that his church would grow and flourish in China. He's in prison.

Scott

42:05

Yes. And so somewhere around the world, if you want to

Dwight

42:09

avoid persecution, just don't do anything. Don't Don't try to follow God's will. Because just the nature of following his command to do good, you will suffer?

Scott

42:21

Do I want to come to, to the prosperity gospel, because there are a lot of Christians who are listening to us talk about flourishing and abundance and prosperity. And they're thinking, Oh, you're talking about the prosperity gospel? You're a promoter of the prosperity gospel? Where does that? Yeah, this is huge. This is one of the biggest heresies in Christianity around the world today. It's huge. What is different about the prosperity gospel from what we're talking about in terms of biblical, flourishing, thriving and abundant?

Dwight

42:56

Tim, or Luke or Scott, why don't you tell me because I, that's, I didn't grow up in the prosperity gospel world, you know, what is that? You know, all I know is it's it's a pastor asking for more money, so that people will get more blessings so that you can buy a Cadillac. Short version? What is it? What is your understand?

Scott

43:18

Just a couple of thoughts I'll put out there when I you know, and I like you, Dwight, I, it's not part of my I don't go to a prosperity Gospel Church, you know, so it's not part of my own tradition. But I certainly have seen it in Latin America and in Africa, I think in some ways, it's dominant in the church in those countries, sadly, I think what it it's the idea that, yeah, it might start with this idea that God wants us to thrive. He wants us to flourish. He wants us to have good things. So there's some truth there. But it's going to say, Well, what does that good thing look like? It looks like a fancy new car. And so it's, it's going to then kind of put that in cents, it puts that car or that good thing, whatever it is that they want the health, the house, and it's going to put God, it's going to put that in the center. And it's going to use God as a means to an end to get that thing. So God isn't the end. God is now a means to an end, the end itself tends to be material prosperity, and God becomes kind of a genie. Right? And in a sense, it's I think we were talking about this the other day, it's very animistic. In a mystic in the sense that if I just get I can manipulate God to get what I want. So these are the errors of the prosperity gospel. And I think the other error is, if you're suffering if you're suffering the effects of the fallen world, it's kind of on you. It's it's, it's because you don't have enough faith. You didn't say the right prayer, you know, there's, there's some of that kind of thing in it as well. So those are my observations about it. What this prosperity gospel is got Tim, Luke, what are your thoughts on that? How does this prosperity gospel differ from this biblical concept of abundance and flourishing and thriving?

Tim Williams

45:14

I've got an observation. And that would just kind of be, you know, as, as we talk about, we work so much with, with churches, as you say, you know, in Latin America and Africa, and places like that. And I think about how, when the prosperity gospel takes root in some of these places, what a distraction it is, from the true calling of the body of believers, they get, you know, a lot of times a pastor, I, you know, I don't know, I mean, surely, there's got to be some well meaning pastor out there, he's gotten pulled into this, but it I mean, the these people, they get pulled in, and the focus is on, you know, we need more money, we need more money, we need more money, you know, and that it's just come to church, give your money. And yeah, the idea, Okay, God, God, hopefully, he's gonna bless you too. But, you know, I mean, we know what the mission of the church is. And it's not that, you know, the missing mission of the church is to be a force of transformation, a force of blessing of salt and light into every area of society and to family and community and nation. And if the only focus is we'll just get in the building. And, you know, let's, you know, collect the offering. And, you know, God's gonna bless us and, you know, go back and do whatever you do the rest. So

Scott

46:40

what I hear you saying, Tim, is it's very inwardly focused, and it's selfishly focused, as opposed to what God wants us to be as focused on being a blessing to the brokenness in the pain and the suffering in this world.

Dwight

46:53

Well, I like the way Arturo eats Tim use the word it becomes a distraction. Yeah. And I like the way Arturo Kumar friend, Arturo deals with this. He says, you know, when somebody wants something to happen, just because they gave the right offering, or they said the right words, or they said the right prayer, you lose sight of what's God's purpose for my life. And, and, you know, our turtle would respond well, you need to go back to school and get an education, you need to

Scott

47:19

do that hard work that you were talking about.

Dwight

47:23

God's God's intentions for you are yet to bless you because you gave, you know, extra 10 cents in the offering, but because he says, go to school, go to school, get a job,

Scott

47:33

work hard, right? Do God's time, the hard

Dwight

47:37

labor, rule over creation by developing yourself as a human being?

Scott

47:42

And that's not what we hear in the prosperity gospel. It's more like you were saying, you know, just, yeah, there's a manipulative aspect to it, you know, give more at church, you know, and then God will bless you, right, you know, so you've kind of bypass all this hard work and just

Dwight

47:57

formulize the Bible. But yeah, I mean, the formula is, is follow God's commands. Yeah. And that's the good life. That's the good life, follow God's commands, especially with terms of loving your neighbor, having dominion over your life and over creation and over the world, loving God, you know.

Luke

48:19

And that doesn't always look like a comfortable life, an easy life. You know, one other people would look at and say, Well, I want that life. But it doesn't mean it's not going to be a life of prosperity. You see that all the time. I mean, you guys all know this. You've traveled all around the world. There's so much more joy sometimes in these third world countries, and you'll see anywhere in the US. And it's money doesn't equal prosperity at all. We all can, but not all.

Dwight

48:47

Yeah, I mean, think of how many friends we have that have chosen God's call them into a place in life to serve others in a unique way. And most of them are not happy. I mean, I think of the

Scott

48:59

one of our artists,

Dwight

49:01

we interviewed one of our associates in South Asia recently, and I think of the path that God has called him in life to minister in the world of art in in Asia. And yeah, has he gotten rich? No, but man, he's got a full life. Oh, it's so full. And he would never trade it for anything. And he's, but he's suffered. So I was part of that calling.

Scott

49:24

I do want to address this as another area of I think, confusion. And, Tim, you're right. When you say, you know, our calling as Christians is for the world. It's for the healing and the blessing of the world. And especially we should be paying attention to people on the margins, people that are suffering, the poor and the needy, and enter into their world. You know, we talk in the disciple nations lines about incarnational ministry, being the hands and feet of Jesus in the lives of people who are poor and broken and suffering and I think that's really important. But this is another area of confusion. And Dwight earlier you mentioned the famous Ron sider who's Just recently passed away, you know, Ron sider wrote a book 30 years ago or more called Rich Christians in an age of hunger and, and kind of the thrust of that book was, you know, the problems in the world are because wealthy Christians in the West have hoarded their money at the expense of people in the developing world who are poor. And, you know, we need to kind of sell, you know, kind of Jesus said to the rich young man, go sell all you have, that's what we need to do as Christians sell it all. Give your money to the poor, then you will have this kind of flourishing, abundant life is that what we need to do is, if we're wealthy, that's not good, we need to sell it all. And give our money to the poor. And then that's the route, what do you this is another area of challenging thought, I think I always

Dwight

50:50

take I mean, I, we can rationalize anything we want. And you know, I would say, Well, that was God's calling for that returing ruler, because he looked at the idol in his life and said, This is your problem. And this is,

Scott

51:03

so you're saying it was specific to his heart, not a general rule of life? Well, that's

Dwight

51:07

just a pathway you're trying to get out of giving your money away. But then I'm thinking, well think about it. What if everybody in the world gave everything they had 7 billion of us now versus 8 billion? Let's say all 8 billion of us obeyed that scripture tomorrow, and we all gave our money away. I mean, would that even work? I mean, somebody's got to earn something. And, you know, so I mean, there's, there's a sense of so it's not a general rule for life, I think the general rule for life has God has a calling on every person.

Scott

51:34

But in some cases, in the case of the rich young man, he was really wealthy, and it had become an idol.

Dwight

51:39

Right. And that call that call can is unique to every person, and it can, it can lead to idol worship, and every human being.

Scott

51:47

And Jesus wanted him to flourish. But the wealth was becoming a barrier to him thriving. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it's not a rule for life. But I think a lot of Christians get confused by this. In fact, I've heard a lot of Christians say, if you follow Jesus, like we're to be disciples of Jesus, then we've got to lay it all aside, put it all aside, I think this is more of your tradition, to whiten the Mennonite community and just really live this very simple life of not lay it aside,

Dwight

52:12

at least hide it. Make sure it was in a bank account where nobody could see it. You know, what's wrong with having well,

Scott

52:21

just just a quick little side? I actually have a ton of respect for the Mennonite tradition, Dwight, because they often suffered, I often go back to Mennonites and Russia, you know, during the Cold War, my ancestors, yeah, they suffered because they were persecuted. And they were often kind of like they were they they were forced off of the land and into exile. But wherever they went, you know, they would go onto the worst lands. I mean, you know, swamp land that nobody else wanted in within like a generation. They're like, wealthy, flourishing people, because they they were operating according to the biblical principles of Proverbs 27. Right. Yeah. But anyways, it's just kind of ironic that you talk about them being, you know, people that don't like excess, because they tend to develop a lot of excess. Yeah.

Dwight

53:11

In terms of wealth. No, most of my relatives were quite wealthy. Yeah, they just had to hide it. You know, my grandpa, even though he couldn't buy white sidewalls, he had wealth trust.

Scott

53:22

That's funny. That is interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Because he

Dwight

53:25

worked hard. He was honest. And, and it wasn't an idol for him.

Scott

53:30

But back to the example of Jesus, and Jesus's disciples, you know, there's, there's this counter the idea of flourishing and abundance? Was, was Jesus kind of an aesthetic who, you know, we, you know, we wouldn't look at his life necessarily as one of flourishing and abundance and thriving, I guess, I don't know. I think some people think that way, you know, that to follow Jesus means to, to live this very simple life, almost kind of to idolatry, Make Poverty itself an idol.

Dwight

54:05

But Jesus have a very unique role to play in this world. Yeah. I mean, I'm not the Apostle Paul. I'm not Jesus. I'm not Peter. I'm Dwight. And what is God's I go back to what's God's call in my life, and I have to go, Well, who am I supposed to love? How am I supposed to rule? You know, what, what skills and tools and what do I produce? What do I bring to this world? And I'm not Jesus. I mean, I'm Dwight and Jesus is 100. Hopefully 100% Well, I shouldn't even say hope. I know. He's 100% in me. So I think we all have a unique calling. And we have to have to go back to that.

Scott

54:45

A couple of verses come to my mind to on this. Oh, go ahead, Luke. Yeah.

Luke

54:49

I mean, I'm just thinking about other biblical examples of that, you know, with the rich young ruler, what Jesus is attacking, there isn't wealth. He's attacking his idol. You know, and that's true for anyone I think. Think of like, David, you know with Solomon wealth became an idol. And then you see Ecclesiastes where he has a whole book on how meaningless money is. But with David you don't see that as soon as struggle his was more sexual since since struggles for David versus well, so you never hear that and David's story and he was extremely wealthy. Yes. You know, or someone like are Joseph fact example Joseph, he became the second most powerful person in the world at that time. You had a nice,

Scott

55:28

yeah, he was living in a nice house, let's just put.

Luke

55:33

Right but the Bible doesn't need to talk about that exactly. Because I would guess those weren't struggles of theirs, and therefore it doesn't need to address them and in everyone's role is unique, and our overall calling is to serve and love others. And the way we do that, the best way to do that is to have as few idols in our life as possible, because those are just such distractions to that call.

Scott

55:59

Absolutely. So I think what we're saying here generally is that wealth can become an idol very easily in the Bible as a lot of warnings on money and wealth for that very reason. It's just such a temptation for us to become the central thing, the idol in our lives. And but the opposite of that, just, you know, get rid of it all. That's not really God's plan, either. It's, you know, he, there's nothing inherently wrong or sinful about wealth. It's, it's wrong when it becomes an idol. I wanted to come back just a couple of things for me that have helped me when I look at the life of Jesus. Because I do think sometimes we can have this idea that Jesus lived this very ascetic life. And there's passages he himself said, you know, the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head, you know. But there's other passages. Matthew 11 is one that Jesus is comparing himself to, well, he's facing the criticism that he's receiving from the Pharisees and he's comparing and contrasting it with John the Baptist and John the Baptist was a true ascetic, you know, he was eating locusts and living on the river and had nothing and the Pharisees were criticizing John the Baptist. Let me read verse 18, Matthew 11, for John, John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking this very ascetic life, and they say, Oh, he's a demon, the Son of Man came eating and drinking. And they say, that is the Pharisees, oh, he's a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and of sinners. So Jesus knew that when this Pharisees looked at him and his lifestyle, they said, he's a glutton. In other words, what I read in that is Jesus didn't mind a good party. He didn't mind, you know, great food. He didn't mind going to a wedding and making the very best wine, right? I mean, so I think sometimes my point there is this idea that Jesus is just this really simple guy who would, you know, just never had never had no access for Jesus? Right? I don't think that's quite a clear picture of Jesus or his life,

Dwight

57:58

either. And I even think of the breakfast he prepared for those, you know, the fishermen, when they came back as resurrection, I bet it was really, really, really good breakfast, you know? Oh, I

Scott

58:07

bet it was. So another verse there that I think has always struck me. You know, I think it's, in fact, right after the story of the rich young ruler, what Jesus said to the rich young ruler, go and sell all you have and give it to the poor, and then you will have, you know, abundant life or eternal life. And Peter speaks up this is in Mark 10, Peter speaks up and says, Jesus, we've left everything to follow you. It's kind of this boast, like, see, we are really good people because we've left everything to follow you, you know. And Jesus responds in this is always kind of strikes me the way he responds to Peter, verse 29, truly, I tell you, Jesus replied, No one who was left home or brothers or sisters, or mother or father or children or fields for me, and the gospel will fail to receive 100 times as much in this present age. Poems, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields, along with persecutions and in the age to come eternal life but what I hear Jesus saying is you think you've given up so much No, you may want anyone who puts me at the center of their life and follows after me isn't giving up anything yet. So I just those those passages strike strike me as kind of new adding some nuance to this idea that to follow Jesus, we have to become these ascetics who give up everything, sell all that we have give to the poor. You know, again, we have to be careful about what I think we have to challenge our own hearts, you know, on this question of has money or wealth become an idol. But there's no great virtue in trying to pursue the same life that Mother Teresa lived, let's say, you know, that's that that's not necessarily Christianity, pursuit

Dwight

59:51

suffering as some ennobling

Scott

59:53

right. pastime. Yeah. And I think, you know, I would say this is a small Dollar error for Christians today I think the bigger one is this prosperity gospel, you know, error. But both of these things are clouding us and leading us away from this, this picture that I think, again, Dwight to bring it back to what is that picture that God wants, I think we find it in in the first two chapters of Genesis and the garden and in the New Jerusalem. And this is what he wants for us, you know, this is this is the kind of because he's a good father who wants us to to really flourish and to thrive. Guys, let's go around and you know, here any kind of final thoughts that you have reversed, or a takeaway that you want to share with with folks as we wrap this up today? Any final thoughts? Final points?

Tim Williams

01:00:46

Oh, I can share just a couple of things. I, one of my favorite scripture passages that I discovered during my college years is from Psalm 36. And I'll probably start reading in verse eight, and maybe earlier, okay, so you may you may remember that old song by third day your love, oh, Lord reaches to the heavens, yes, faithfulness stretches to the skies. And it goes on verse seven, how priceless is your unfailing love, oh, God, people take refuge in the shadow of your wings, they feast on the abundance of your house, you give them drink, from your river of Delights. For with you is the fountain of life. In your light, we see light. I just loved that picture, as a young person haven't haven't been able to get away from it. So today still love that, that picture that? You know, we have a God of abundance, we have a God of unlimited resources, we have a God of care, and he wants really good things for you, Tim, really good things for you. That's as hard. Yeah. Yeah, I think, a place that I'm going to take away from this conversation as as a place for me to continue to try and grow. And is something Dwight was saying earlier about this need for us to learn how to rest, to restore, you know, what is this idea of Sabbath about? I just need to learn that more about myself, as I see more and more people doing things in their downtime, that at the end, you know, when their downtime is over, they're not like, Oh, I feel so refreshed. Now. They're just kind of like, you know, the, just this kind of level of dullness is just kind of a constant. A lot of our social media scrolling and time on our phones and things like that. But this idea of shalom and and how that is a place that includes relationship includes creation. I even wrote down in my notebook here as we're talking. How can I create a discipline of appreciating beauty? Because that is flourishing, if I take time to engage and appreciate the beauty that that God has put out there for us to enjoy. It would enrich my life, it would honor him. So those are some reflections. It's great,

Scott

01:03:38

Tim, thank you. Yeah.

Dwight

01:03:41

I think my, my comment would be just and Luke, you touched on this earlier as well, just the idea of, do I pursue flourishing, or do I pursue fruitfulness and I think the path to flourishing is fruitfulness. And so the question is, am I living fruitfully? Am I am I working with my life in a way today? That it will bear fruit, both in this world for goodness in my own life for health and well being and in others? And not focus on flourishing so much, but fruitfulness?

Luke

01:04:18

Very good. Yeah, actually, that was that was gonna be my final point to the first command that God gives us in the Bible is Be fruitful and multiply fill the earth and subdue it. And we're going to be talking about a piece of that on the next podcast, the baby category of being fruitful and having offspring. But fruitfulness can look like so many things. And God calls us to be fruitful and easy. He's given each of us desires, passions, gifts, and he doesn't want us to waste those. He wants us to find how we can utilize those best to glorify Him and serve others. So dig into those. I'm excited to continue to Do that.

Scott

01:05:01

That's great, Luke. Yeah. I'd like to just end by encouraging our listeners to read Dwight's fantastic book. And it's a short read, but it's full of wonderful wisdom. It's called made to flourish. White, what's the subtitle of that book? Again,

Dwight

01:05:16

God's designed for all individuals, communities and nations.

Scott

01:05:19

Yeah. And we look specifically at kind of our relationships, you know, living in a way that aligns with God's design in terms of our relationship to God with other people, and then with creation itself. And so a great deal of what he what you were sharing today, Dwight is kind of unpacked in that book. And and in the midst of it, he weaves in his own story, his own background of growing up in, you know, a Mennonite, traditional family. And so anyways, terrific read, thanks for writing that book to it. And I just want to encourage our listeners to go out and get a copy of that. So and you can find that on Amazon, you can also find that at the disciple nations Alliance website. So guys, great discussion today, much more than we could say. But I think this has been good to kind of push in, on what what is this picture of flourishing and abundance and helping communities and people to thrive and to really live as God intends, and to avoid these errors that the idolatry on one hand, the prosperity gospel, or kind of this idea of, you know, we've got to sell it all and live this very simple life for the sake of others, you know, services asceticism, yeah. All right. Thank you all for listening to ideas of consequences, the podcast at the disciple nations.

Luke

01:06:42

Hi, friends. Yes, thank you for joining us today. Before you go, I want to tell you a little bit more about Dwight Vogt book made to flourish. God's designed for individuals, communities, and nations. To learn more about this book or grab your copy, just go to this episode's landing page, which is linked down below. On that page, you can also read more about our new study guide that our friend Nelson Montoya helped Dwight create called made to flourish a biblical map for youth towards an expansive horizon. And it's 21 studies that helps parents, teachers and youth pastors build or reinforce the foundational blocks of a Christian worldview. The made to flourish study guide focuses on God's plans for human development and focuses on the foundational principles God set at creation for human beings to flourish. We would highly recommend this resource for anyone who is discipling young person between about the ages of 12 and 18. Again, thank you for joining us today. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. for next week's discussion, we will be bringing you our worldview analysis on the coming demographic collapse in population due to increasingly low birth rates in many European, North American and Asian countries, an issue that Christians must understand and address soon with the truth of the Bible. And again, that episode will be out next Tuesday at 5pm. Mountain Standard Time here in the US. Thanks again for listening

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