Showing Up for Trans and Gender Expansive Clients - 1:10:25, 2.54 PM

7:57PM Jan 10, 2025

Speakers:

Clark Ausloos, PhD

Keywords:

trans youth

mental health

political advocacy

policy impact

gender affirming care

community building

mutual aid

social justice

professional responsibility

emotional labor

ethical dilemmas

grassroots support

legislative restrictions

queer community

counselor education

Music.

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the thoughtful counselor. I'm Dr Maddie Clark, an associate professor of Counselor Education at the University of Nevada in sunny Las Vegas, and I'm here with Dr Clark D oslose. He him who's a core faculty in the counseling program at Oakland University, where he leverages his extensive experience working with LGBTQ youth in clinical and school settings. He has a PhD in counselor education, an MA in school and clinical mental health counseling, and is licensed in both Ohio and Michigan. His dedication to queer and trans youth in their families is reflected in his extensive scholarly work, which includes over 20 peer reviewed publications and book chapters alongside of 60 conference presentations. He's earned a lot of awards, including the Ohio Counselor of the Year Award, and he provides consultation to numerous organizations, and he is a professional member of ACA and BCC asis, A R, C, S S, a c, a c and a c, s, s, w, welcome Dr ozlete to the podcast. Do you want to share a little bit about your background and your experiences and what brought you here today, as we get into the conversation of kind of the mental health and political advocacy needs of trans youth. Yeah,

thank you so much. Don't get us confused. You are the Dr Clark. I am Dr Clark. A but yes, I am so pleased to be here. I will never stop talking to folks about trans youth and the importance of affirming work with them, and so I appreciate any opportunity that we can have to have this dialog. And I will tell you that I think my journey to this place wasn't, maybe typical in the sense that didn't always know I was going to be in, like, the helping profession. And as I moved into the helping profession space, I didn't even know I necessarily would be working with trans youth, something that kind of like is a mixture of happenstance and also, you know, personal, my involvement in the personal, personal involvement. So my identity as a queer person also informs my work with trans folks. And so, you know, at first, I started working in the school settings, and was working with a lot of youth, and moved into clinical counseling, where I could work with youth and adolescents and a little bit more of kind of psychotherapeutic manner. And it was there where I started to work a little bit more with you, with families, in this family setting, and being an only child myself, something that was challenging for me at first was my work with these clients, my advocacy, my passion, working with them often sometimes led to feeling defensive of them or angry towards the family or The parents, instead of working with the family and so kind of understanding that dynamic, and so building upon those skills, I've worked in college counseling centers and in a private practice setting, where now I primarily see queer and trans youth and adolescents young adults and their families, and a lot of times working with clients, you know, in a short amount of time for those who might be just needing access to services, and other times, maybe more long term therapeutic needs. But really it's an area where, you know, even just in the last five years, I would say, has become just such a topic of of discourse in the world. And I. You know, so I see myself now at this place of having a lot of privileges and also having this responsibility to have these dialogs, to have this conversation, to advocate for for trans folks, and to move forward in a way that's helpful. And so I think that's part of this conversation, is like, you know, our, our our ethical and our kind of moral responsibility in this time. So, yeah, and so I, I've, I've kind of navigated counseling and sought additional trainings in working with trans and queer youth, and had some fellowship opportunity and as well as some training with W path and other organizations. And so, you know, I've continued to seek training in that area. And I think the other unique factor that that I like to share is that I'm kind of, you know, currently kind of working. I mean, two different states, and these states have really different laws and views and policies in regards to how trans youth are treated, how trans youth can access care. And so it's very interesting to be in this position of navigating these laws and policies, state by state, and they can look very different, but be neighbors. And so we're in this very interesting time that is, you know, it's necessary that we have this conversation.

Yeah, thanks for sharing. Clark, I kind of want to bring in, like, the paradigm through which I was viewing, having this conversation with you, which was after the election in November, coming into 2025 and the inauguration. I know a lot of trans folks, gender expansive folks, parents of trans kids are feeling really, really afraid. And I wonder if you can kind of share with our listeners how that is kind of looking for this group right now. I think when you talk about what are some things they are afraid of, and how those are concrete, real threats, and how we as mental health providers and Counselor Educators and counselors in training can show up to hold space for folks when there's kind of these, like very scary, looming policy decisions. And I definitely would kind of want to dig back into some of those policy differences you talked about, but just what is the environment for people in this moment as we enter 2025

Yeah, I think that the honest truth is that there's a lot of Fear, there's a lot of divisiveness, and there's a lot of feelings of trans folks, particularly trans youth, being used as as pawns, being used as stories, as you know, political fuel, In a sense, for certain folks, or to ignite feelings or evoke feelings in certain people for political gain. And so, you know, we have this really, really hostile environment in which we kind of have this eruption of legislature that continues to emerge, that continues to put restrictions on, on on trans care of trans youth, and so, you know. And so, yeah, so when we think about what this looks like is looks like this very fragmented world of you know, some states seeming more supportive, allowing folks to receive care. Other states outright, banning it, you know, introducing bills that would have educators and counselors in school, settings out trans kids to their parents and other stakeholders. You know, things, things like that, where, even if not passed, we know that the introduction of this, of the language of these bills, like the the framing of these bills, seeing these in the media, this has an impact on trans youth. And so we, you know, we've seen studies even since the since the election, since the election results of increased mental health hotlines, particularly related to queer and trans youth, as cited by the Trevor Project. And so. So, you know, it has, has real implications. Not just, oh, down the road, trans youth might be hurt by this, but in the moment. You know, we're seeing that it's, it's really impacting folks and so and so. You know, that puts us in a really challenging place as counselors. I think, as I said before, part of a PART part of me feels like it should propel us forward in a way that we do with, with wearing our social justice, you know, framework as we do as professional counselors. I think this is another area where we need to continue that kind of movement of social justice, particularly for a very vulnerable population that doesn't necessarily like have a voice at all. And so I think part of the challenging thing is that, you know. And I'm thinking about like, when I give presentations on, you know, just even how to, you know, being affirming one on one, you know, kind of working with trans youth. Like, what are some best practices? And sometimes, when I'm giving them now, I think, you know, these are kind of aspirational, because I feel like these are some best practices related to what we should see in schools, how folks should interact with each other, what should the rights be, what what should be accessible? But then the reality is that we don't see that in settings. And so we see, like, more restrictions and more removal of certain programs, like in schools, where we see removal of our, you know, social emotional learning, or other types of what people are calling divisive, quote, unquote, divisive concepts related to anything of related to diverse identities. And so, yeah, so we're just, we're in this time then as counselors, where we have to navigate the waters of of what can I do in my state, my location, where I practice, what are the rights and what's going on in my state related to trans youth? I think that's really important for counselors to to know and to think about. And so, you know, one of the biggest things when I was thinking about what folks need to start thinking about, or learn about, learn more about, it's balancing. It's a fine, fine balance, but it is kind of staying abreast, staying updated with the newest information related to what's going on in that state, balancing with, you know, making sure you're taking care of yourself and your wellness related to your, you know, consumption of media. But really, there are a lot of different organizations, the movement Advancement Project, and others that folks can sign up for and get updates related to your specific state. You can see your specific state's equity score and kind of how it relates to other states. And so in that way, folks are, like, updated on what's going on. And so that way, you know you can have a better understanding of when you work with your trans clients, you know they may ask questions that you should then have answers to, right or at least be able to have open discussions about this is what it looks like. And the truth is that we don't know a lot of times what it'll look like in practice, or what things will look like in the field, so to speak. But we need to be able to kind of talk through what some of this stuff means for the future for youth. I think that's something that comes to mind first. Yeah,

that brings up a lot for me. Like, just to summarize, I'm hearing the impact of policy on the real work of counselors, probably, especially our professional school counselors who are listening just because they're so heavily impacted by what states decide to do in a way that, like private practitioners, aren't necessarily subjected to, but also like the idea of moral panic, right and how moral panic was used in the recent political cycles to induce a fear about a specific group of people, gender expansive people, that literally makes the world more violent for them and less safe. And I think we have to like recognize that how those political levers are being pulled to actively harm people, and how counselors have to really stay up on and aware of the policies where they live, specifically, especially as this has been really heavily adjudicated by the states. For now, I think is the position that I feel comfortable. Saying, because I'm not sure that that will always remain the case. So I don't know if you have one to pick up on that, but I think the direction I would love to go is hearing more about those policy differences that you're seeing because you're working in a pretty red state as a counselor Ohio, which is also where I'm from, and then you also are licensed in Michigan, which now is purple blue, especially with how their state legislature and governor is currently situated. So how does that change your on the ground activity? How can you compare and contrast those experiences? And what do counselors may be in those more progressive states need to know and be doing? And what do counselors in those less progressive states need to know and be doing to do their jobs effectively?

Yeah, and I would say too that what I've what I've learned, is that the more progressive states, the more affirming states that maybe don't have specific bands. A lot of times, through queer affirming or LGBTQ organizations or trans affirming organizations, you can find kind of like safe havens or really, really like large amounts of information related to kind of resources for trans individuals. And so we do see folks from neighboring states, for example, Ohio, a lot of folks travel to Michigan to receive care, to receive treatment. Those that can access, you know, do have the ability to access and to travel, for example, are able to do that. And so, you know, for me, it looks like knowing those resources to make, those referrals to folks in those affirming states. And it's also, I think, one of the biggest things that I've seen most recently is it's also a beautiful thing, in a sense, like it's, it's angry and sad, because it's, we've had to come to come to this, but in the beautiful sense of humanity, I've seen, you know, such kind of coming together in a grassroots way of many you know, individuals and organizations and community members of trans individuals and come together for like mutual aid and mutual support and Things like that, right? So if you know, if anything, I think that is a thing that we're that we're really seeing. And so if there are those resources of which I know of in my area, I want to make sure that I'm connecting my clients to those, those resources as well as as well, because it can be so isolating. And so you know, when folks have communities that they can go to, that's that those are supportive as well. So I think you know, to kind of put it into like a real life story, when thinking about it, you know what this looks like in practice is, is sitting in a room and having a client come in, who is, I believe they were, you know, maybe 13 or so, and saying, I don't know what I'm going to do if I can't have my hormones, I don't know what I'm going to do, right? And so, I think for me at that moment, was like, gosh, that's a lot, because it was I felt, I felt, you know, yeah, I, I don't know what we're going to do either. And this is a lot for you to hold on to at this time in your life, at such a young age, right? And so I think the other thing to think about is to we may have to move past some traditional counseling techniques, CBT, and move towards a little bit more of a advocacy role, where We are connecting to resources we are helping prepare our clients in other ways. For example, I've known folks who you know, and this is up to them, but they've perhaps in fear of what could happen in the future. Might, you know, kind of rush to, in a sense, schedule a consultation, because for fear that may not be possible in the future, or might collect medications, in a sense, to make sure they have enough in case that wouldn't were not to be allowed in the future. And so, you know, it's kind of like, you know, knowing what our trans communities are saying that they need as well, but also not depending on our trans community to be the folks that are like telling us what to do, right? So I think that's another part in my piece, is I want to as an ally, make sure that I am helping do this work and not put it back on them. On trans folks. So I think, you know, while it seems overwhelming, you have to start somewhere. And so whether that's just you simply Google trans affirming organization and your local city, or, you know, county, and starting to dig into some of that information and finding what's what's out there just start somewhere.

So click. What I'm hearing you talk about here is there's really this broad access conversation that has to happen, and how well there's always been inequitable access to gender affirming care based on who is injured who's not insured. Are they in a metro area? Are they in a rural area? There's all always been these variables, but those are going to start to, I think, become more stark for people, and already are based on policies and legislations, like, can you afford to go to a doctor in a different state to get and seek gender affirming care? And there will be certain groups of people who can do that, and certain groups of people who can't, because of financial issues, social class issues, those sorts of things. So I think that'll be important for us to keep in mind, especially for Well, why don't you just drive to this place, or go to this place where it is legal? There have been those conversations about reproductive health since Dobbs too, right? And states who've criminalized that there's all these, these other things that could happen, like a waterfall effect. I and you bring up the point of like, knowing what's going on in your area, but also thinking beyond the traditional like, here is an LGBTQ plus center, right? It's more of like, how can we build a radical community of care that is almost, it's a little bit underground in that way, right? It's like, how can we get you connected into this community of resources, I wonder if you can explain that a little bit more, especially maybe for someone who is less familiar with the queer community and understanding what that looks like for queer people. Because queer people have always existed. They have always resisted. They've been here with us forever because of those communities, right? And I think helping, especially cis gender or heterosexual people understand practically? What does that look like, and why is that such a resiliency for the community?

Yeah, I love I think, thanks for asking that question. I think the nuances in that are important too, in that, you know, when we think about our gender expansive and trans youth and adolescents, first of all we think about community building. It's very challenging in the physical world that they live in, oftentimes facing, you know, rejection, discrimination. We know that, we know, like terrible treatment in the world that oftentimes and results in folks, you know, turning to connections in an online way, right? And so we see kind of this building of community through, you know, through, through the internet and through, you know, forums and then websites and social media. And so this is where we still today, continue to see folks kind of gathering, in a sense, and there's almost a sense of, you know, it's, it's twofold, because it's, it's great that we, we're having a place where we can have community building. And we have to remember, too, we have to remember that, you know, we should think about safety. So I'm thinking about, you know, when, when I see things that are kind of calls for mutual aid, for example, or for to help out trans folks that might be looking for some support in, you know, for whatever it might, whatever it might be, I want to make sure, you know, I'm thinking like these resources, putting their information out there could be unsafe if they're Putting in, like in a public document. And so, you know, there have been a lot more communities building in things like where we see discord channels or in Reddit threads and things like that, where it's a little bit more hidden, so to speak, but information is stored there, and people are kind of gathering, and so you're right, and kind of how you would describe that. And the challenge is also, like I'm sharing, is to make sure that we're protecting those, those places and those resources and communities as well. And so that's why I'm not necessarily, you know, kind of openly sharing these. These are, these are things that we have to find in our own communities and channels. But I think that, you know, what I've seen is really this, this strength and fortitude of you know, no matter what happens in the future, this is what we're going to do right now. This is what we can do right now, and we're, yeah, we've always been here. We're going to be here. This isn't, this isn't changing anything for us. I think one of the things that you mentioned, too, is this logic of, you know, doing less harm in establishing some of these laws, like these, these bathroom bills that we see, right? So these are. Restrict students to their assigned sex at birth and not by their gender identity. And so what we know about these this is that, you know, we see an increase in violence and sexual assault and sexual violence against particularly queer and and trans and non binary students in in schools that have these restrictions, you know? So we, we know that it almost it has the opposite effect. It's harmful, but it's harmful for students that who are trans and who are gender expansive, and so we don't have any data showing that that, you know, there is, you know, more breaches of privacy or more harm done when trans students use the restroom of their you know, that aligns with their identity. And so we have these types of bills that, you know, just perpetuate even more harm. And like I said, past or not, they really send a message. And so the thing that's really challenging, too, is they continue to be kind of almost snuck into bills, in a sense, right? And so we continue to see this where they might be masked in a different bit, in a different language, or masked in different, you know, in a different way, where it's kind of added to a bill. I can't remember the state, but it was adding, you know, banning gender affirming care in addition to abortion. And so it was kind of lumping these together. The interesting thing that most of these states that have this this restriction is that any of these types of gender, this gender care, this treatment, can still be used on cisgender folks. So if I was cisgender, and I was experiencing puberty early, as they called, like precocious puberty. Like long ago, I could still receive that treatment, but I could not if I was trans. And so there's just a lot of frustration around these, these laws that have no merit in any, in any any factual basis or any data,

yeah, other than it's moral panic stuff right? Like gender affirming care, cisgender people engage in gender affirming care by getting highlights or breast implants or a hair transplant, or, like, I use spironolactone, which is an acne medication. This is like TLDR, but like, that's a testosterone suppressant to keep my skin clear. Like trans people also take that same medication, but in a state where gender affirming care was not allowed, I could get that, but they could not so again, it's not about safety of medication or procedure. It's about a very specific way to yield power, to control power, and to use this moral panic as and they piggyback it on these things, appropriations or whatever else, like, oh, well, we got to keep the government running. So then people, you know don't want to vote no on it, because, you know, transgender people are like, what 1.3% of the population, and unfortunately, don't have a plurality in our society, so it becomes our responsibility as cisgender people to engage in that protection and helping them establish a plurality in some way. So yeah, it's very frustrating. It's a frustrating time. I think a lot of us feel stuck. We feel like we're spinning our wheels. We're saying all these things like, Hey, this is terrible. It's not empathic, it's not humanistic, it's not person centered. And yet the hits keep coming, at least from a mental health perspective. Like, how much more? What more would you ask me to do? But you've given us some really good concrete things like, consider how you can be involved in community building. And I think there are some important aspects to that, like, one, you need to know queer people, you need to know trans people, and they need to trust you. So that's not going to just, like, go happen overnight, you make a blue sky account and like, people are going to trust you. I think folks feel very wary, and they rightfully should, of people they don't know people who aren't queer, people who aren't trans. So I think people who are looking to do that need to understand that that won't be necessarily an easy route. And there's a lot of you have to prove yourself as a trustworthy person in this environment. So as one concrete strategy to do, what are some other things we need to be prepared, prepared for as a profession? Is this going to be political advocacy, policy advocacy? What should we are we ready to write letters? We need to be ready to make phone calls. What are our next steps as professionals? And then maybe we can get in the conversation of what do we need to do as people who care about other

people? So I think as professionals, we. We are going to have to almost shift and think creatively in a way, because we're going to have to like, I'm like I shared before, and kind of move beyond traditional talk therapy methods that we might think about when we go I'm going to be a professional counselor when I get older. I think that the it's going to look a lot different. I think that we are going to be, I think innately, you know, we're we're really going to have to do a lot of empowering of our clients, working with our clients, in a way that we are acknowledging the world that they're living in, that we're living in, and helping support them in that world, not trying to change them, but try, but really supporting them in that world. And so what does that look like? It's like, you know, helping them feel safe in the world, establishing safety plans and support systems and preparing them for in whatever way we can, for the outside world, and so having, you know, if it's discussions with others, and then so, so I think that, you know, we're gonna have, we're gonna see a shift in kind of just that therapeutic approach and kind of how we are managing that session. And I also think there is going to be a little bit more of a highlight as well on almost, kind of like a, you know, a social work feel, of the fact that we will have to maybe have a little bit more of investment of an exploration of different organizations and community outreach and connection to services. So I say that out as in, like kind of melding of professions, but more so like, just again, that role of the counselor in the traditional talk therapy, it's really, it's really shifting. And I think that can be scary for some folks who who might be like, I just want to be a counselor and sit in the room. But if you're going to do this work with with anyone, it's, it's, it's really important that that we do this, this other part of the work too. And so, you know, you don't have to always have all the answers of what to do or say in the moment with your clients. I think what's also really helped me is my reliance and on really supportive professional organizations that have rigorous research and information, but that's also digestible for folks that are our clients and our families. So, so really, you know, signing up for a national organization newsletter that provides you updates. It seems small, but those types of things can really you know. How else are you going to know what's going on, unless you just sit down and kind of start to Google, or maybe you're clicking through the news and you see something. But I think you know, some of those small pieces can be really helpful as well. And also, when thinking about the community, you know, it can feel really isolating and so, but we know there are queer and trans businesses, individuals, and so the more that we can connect with others in those like queer and trans owned businesses or organizations in our area, the better. And like I said, if not, we may have to result in, you know, we may have to use some some other measures, some other apps or kind of communities to get some of those resources.

Thank you for sharing some of those ideas. I wonder, and I'm not so limited, and I know that we have many trans and gender expansive and non binary counselors out there who are our colleagues and co workers. What are some ways that we can show up for them and hold space for them as they are likely dealing with the personal impact of this, but also the professional impact. I know a lot of our queer and trans counselors are working with more queer and trans youth than the standard caseload, so kind of a double burden, in that sense, on their professional identity and ability to engage in this really important and hard work. So how do we show up in our counseling spaces, in our counselor education programs and continue to be trans affirming, gender affirming, all of these things in the face of what may be some difficult time.

Yeah, I think it's gonna, it's, it's it, it really is showing up. I think that's the first thing is, like, is is showing up? And, um. So, you know, it might be, it might be leaning into discomfort in a time where we're in a we're in a public setting, we're in our workspace or community space, whatever that is, and somebody says something and that we need to step in and intervene and model response to discrimination, and perhaps in that way. And, you know, that's one small way, but I think moving past, you know, pushing past discomfort, moving past some kind of processing, some of the biases that are coming up, but then really, you know, making sure that we're modeling that, and being upstanders in those situations, you know, making sure that it's safe, of course, and navigating safety, but really, really leaning into that and advocating for and standing up for folks. And I think there's different ways that we can do that. It can be in the moment, it can be after the fact, and then always checking in with that person maybe seeing how they're doing after that exchange. And, you know, there's ways in conversation too, that if we feel like someone perhaps is being not highlighted or even ignored, are there ways that in conversation we can perhaps highlight what they were trying to say, or you notice they had a suggestion, you know, things like that, where, where we can in small ways to show up. But then I also think, you know, in ways that like so there's differences. I see, I see people, you know, post things on social media. I see things. I see people doing things in their community. And I think if we could all think about, you know, something that we could do locally in our community, sometimes that's a little bit more beneficial than even, you know, kind of just posting something, re sharing something, well, that's great. And I think that we do need to bring awareness to these issues. There's nothing wrong with that. I think their extra step would be kind of doing our part, doing that extra work. And so it's engaging with the community. It's knowing those local resources and leaning into those resources as well. And and, you know, I think it could also mean that for our for our trans and queer colleagues and others that we, you know, we have to be the ones to help educate folks, right? And so in spaces where we might have to provide education, maybe we are the ones to do that first. And so oftentimes in spaces, if left you know, silent, trans or gender expansive folks will answer those questions or feel like they need to. So can we provide information instead of them having to for themselves? If that's what that if that looks, you know, that's what that looks like for them. So, yeah, I think, I think we're beyond the days of, kind of like, I mean, we're not beyond the days. We are trying to move beyond the days of just, just using someone's correct pronouns, right? And so we're we are using correct pronouns, we are using names, and we are working in ways that we're trying to like impact the system. And I think it can feel overwhelming. And so yes, there are many kind of actionable strategies of communicating with your legislators and things like that and that, and that's important work as well. I think those are really different levels. But let's not forget about, you know, when it feels hopeless, there's ways in in our lives that we can continue to be affirming, continue to show up for folks and to advocate for folks. And advocacy can look so different and so micro, nuanced, and so remembering that as well, that you may be doing some of that already, and some of your work that you're doing.

Yeah, so I'm hearing you say a couple things. One, there's this emotional labor piece, right? Is be willing in these, I don't know if we want to call them discriminatory situations, but certainly sticky situations, somebody misgender someone, or dead named someone, or something like that, is to be willing to be like, hey, that's actually not appropriate. Let's, let me tell you why. So the person who experienced that microaggression, macro aggression, doesn't have to do the emotional labor to help this other person do it correctly, that they can attend to their own emotions at that moment in time. But it also gets it to me into like, it just sounds like, you know, are we have a have a problem, I think, as a profession of like, we often talk the talk, but we don't walk the walk, if I may. And it sounds like, you know, the talk is good, and we want to keep that up. We want to engage in that policy advocacy right the. Make the phone calls that you'll have to, like, show up in your community and walk the walk to and physically show up in spaces for people?

Yes, absolutely. And that also involves, as we move forward in these times, some creativity, some, you know, ingenuity, some non traditional methods, or, you know, things like that. We may have to kind of work outside the box in these times. And so I think, you know, we're just going to have to be creative. And I think we will as a profession, and we will, we've done it before. You know, I think about colleagues and school counselors and folks that work in schools that are already working in some of these settings where it's very restrictive, and folks have shared that it's very challenging. There are creative ways that folks have worked within legal and ethical guidelines, but there's a lot of questioning of folks, you know, the balance of doing what's right, doing what's what's right for the student, and what's what the law says. You know, these are really challenging times, and so it, you know, I think that, again, it's really important that we stay connected to these professional organizations as well. Because, you know, like I said, I receive updates daily and like, I'm not always checking every single day, but it helps me to know what's going on. So when I work with my clients, I can can better, better work with them.

Yeah, there's so many parts and pieces to this. It goes back to everyone's like ethics class, where you have to remember that the law supersedes ethics even when they disagree with each other, and that can also put us in these ethical dilemmas as professionals. When, what do we do when the law does not align with what our ethical code does of, you know, beneficence and those sort of things and veracity, which is its own conversation a whole other day. But it also sounds like, you know, to kind of sum up what we need to be prepared to do is being creative, finding ways to still support and hold space for students, folks, anyone impacted by this, parents and family members too, right? They're obviously feeling the fear that we talked about when we started the conversation today, showing up and being a part of your community and getting engaged and building trust and rapport with trans and gender expansive people at large, so you can help connect people if you need to, or provide services if and when you need to. And it sounds like just really staying abreast of what's going on, being informed like I know we all feel maybe a little bit overwhelmed by media and social media at times, but it's not a good enough reason to turn that off. Is there needs to be a way you can have at least bite sized chunks of knowing what's going on in your state, in your community, in the country, in a way that keeps you well too. So that's my 15 cent summary of what we talked about in the last few minutes. We're coming up on kind of the end of our time. Dr ozous, do you want to share anything else, any final thoughts, anything we didn't get to today that you want to make sure our audience hears,

yeah, I think that just not to sound, you know, cliche, but I think that it's important to remember our work in these times as counselors with these populations, that you know, the difference that we can Make in just, you know, one person's life, and not virtue signaling. Here I'm saying kind of like the, you know, the effect that that we can have working with someone can be so powerful and beneficial and life changing and life saving that, you know, it's important work. And so you know that, like you shared body, this is it can be frustrating. There's a lot of burnout. And you know it, it is also life saving. And so to continue this work is important if we are, if we are saving lives. And I also would say that I would just really encourage folks to continue to to to lean into and remember that data does exist and science is real. We we have to remember that, you know, all major medical health professional organizations support gender affirming care, and, you know, show lots of data that it's effective, saves lives. And so we have to, we have to trust and believe in that, in our in science. Students and so, you know, we do have that as a tool as we continue to move forward. And I would also hope that call for our profession as well is to continue, those of you who conduct research, is to continue to include trans youth, particularly in trans individuals, gender expansive folks in your research and your samples in the research questions, right? And that kind of community informed way so that we can also have better data, you know, more more rich data, and data that can be really meaningful to trans folks. So think about that as well.

Thank you, Dr osley, for sharing your expertise with us. I think this is a really rich conversation. It's just really helped remind me that I became a counselor because I thought it was a great way to do social justice on the micro level, absolutely every day, you sit across from someone, and I feel like that really came through in the conversation we had today. So thank you for your time in this episode and thank you for listening. Thank you.

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