Bobby Austin Full Conversation 09 28 21

    2:41PM Nov 10, 2021

    Speakers:

    Michael Maxsenti

    Steven Bhaerman

    Bobby Austin

    Keywords:

    people

    kinship

    world

    symbols

    thought

    public

    moral

    understand

    years

    questions

    common

    flag

    create

    action

    point

    country

    breach

    truth

    called

    idea

    Welcome to front and center, on the political battlefields to cooperative playing fields. That's what we're all about. And we have an incredible guest today that we'd like to introduce you to Bobby Austin, I'm going to turn it over to my partner, Steve Berman. And Steve, would you introduce Bobby for us?

    Great, thank you. And hello, everybody. Our guest today is Bobby Austin. He's the president and CEO of neighborhood associates, he is involved in something that's called public kinship. And I first met Bobby about almost a year ago, through a mutual associate Norlin Dimmitt. And what got me very, very interested is Norlin, talking about how many faith based groups there are out there, who are really looking to essentially create a beloved community to essentially look after people and you know, follow the deepest spiritual teachings, social activism to bring people together across the political divide. So I'm really, really pleased to have you here today for our conversation. Welcome, Bobby.

    Thank you very much. See, thank you for having me. And Michael.

    Well, first of all, let's just begin with with this concept of public kinship, in your work over the past a bunch of years, a little bit background on on work, your what your work has been, and where it's taken you in recent months in yours.

    Well, thank you for the opportunity. Public kinship, is a concept that I came up with many years ago, actually, I was just looking back for this program, because I forget how long it's been sometimes. But in 9293, I think we came out with a book at when I was at Kellogg called repairing the breach. And that book was about how to reconnect African American men and boys to American society. And after all, that we had talked about, and we had some wonderful scholars, and we had done activists, ministers and different people, educators and to talk with us. As foundations can do, they can one thing they can do well, they do it is to convene. And so we did convene some wonderful people. But after I was, as I was trying to piece together, I didn't see a real glue, repairing the breach, yes, yes, all those things, it worked. That was why it had to be internal review and communities, each community needed to review itself and see what was wrong. And then they had to be external, work with communities outside of you. But I thought about it as I was writing, I think, you know, what we need is some kind of public concept where we can feel like, we can feel like family, whether we are or not, it doesn't frighten people to think we're all going to get married. You know, Americans can be very base at times. And I mean, I'm from the south, and I came in the days where you would actually hear people on television, say, would you want your daughter to marry one. Now, with a science that's come around, it appears that not only are they married, one, they married millions, and they didn't actually marry them. They were just they just cohabitated. That's part of how we are as a people in this society. But we don't recognize it yet. And we don't see it yet, even though we see it every day as we look at ourselves and our friends around us. So so we know what maybe public kinship with says, We are publicly related. And we're publicly related because we have an ethic, which is Judeo Christian, and that is Do unto others as you would have those people do unto you. And basically, that's how public cancer came about. It was a very simple mantra that I thought if we could all learn this, if our children can learn it, if adults can learn it, if politicians could learn it, and that is just treat people the way you want to be treated. Public kinship, would be here. It'd be something we could all do. It's all about self assessment. It's about something I do. And it's not asking other people to do anything except assess themselves. That's how we got started.

    So this is a purely voluntary notion that each of us from our own spiritual understandings, let's say, we begin to be aware of an act as if we are all related course native peoples would say all our relations, including the entire web of life, and the animal kingdom, and so on. So it's been almost 30 years. 1992. Yeah, so So in that period of time, we can't condense now, all of your lessons learned in the next five minutes. But what Hey, you know, how has this notion played out? Let's say in ways that have been positively surprising. And then what have been some of the obstacles that you've run into?

    Well, it's very difficult to tell you the truth. Mainly because people want I guess, in America will say people, but I think most Americans like things that come with instruction packets. So it's got to tell you step one, step two, step three, step four, I dare not not to think for myself outside of that, because I might blow up the new scenario or whatever. So whenever you start talking about doing something, well, how do you do that? And I found that that question has gone on for years. And I was like, well, can't you think of someone? No, no. How do you do public kinship? And eventually, I said, Well, you know, maybe I'm the ones being pigheaded, because I think I understand it. And I'm saying to people, it's this very simple. But you know, it's been 2000 years since Christ tried to get us to do unto others as you'd have them do unto ourselves, we as we treat other people. It's so simple. And looks like it is a simple things can't get to that. If I wish to be civil, if I wish to have a world in which I'm treated well, I will sweep you well. Doesn't seem complicated to me. And yet, it has been a complicated road that we have traveled. Now, I convinced Kellogg, they liked it. We put a lot of money into it. We worked with young groups across the country of about eight years, I guess, particularly African American men and boys. And that went pretty well. It says that in some of these some cases. In our society, we think it's, it's for those people, it's not for me, because it's get black boys to see us. Well, the society already treats them. Well. That's not true. But it's very difficult to get people to own up to what is the actual problem in America. That's what the summer of last year was all about. It was about our reckoning. If you don't believe it, here is a videotape that shows a man with his knee and a man's neck until that man dies. And it is not a cartoon. It is not a movie. It is not a documentary. It is someone's life. And you had to watch it in living color on your television set. I think that shots are guns because they had to finally come to grips with. You see, my friends. This is not a game. This has happened to people every day on the streets. Now, if that officer and I was anyone I'm not going to pick on him would have treated that fellow Mr. Floyd, as he would have his nephew, he would not have done that. And you cannot convince me that he would have if that had been some of his kin, even of his ethnic group, he probably would not have done that. But because this was an other and not us, a interloper a whatever. I can sit here with my net, my knee on his neck while someone actually videotapes, me. I think, you know, I hate to say that a man had to give his life for us and come to some reckoning about this. But see, that's public kinship in the negative. Public kinship is very simple. Now, mind you, I have done eight steps for creating public good because we're trying to work on getting people to do this and you can see I will go through those. But I am saying at its essence, it is very, very quick. It is a very simple uncomplicated idea. Treat people the way I want to be treated and it becomes public concern. They become my public family. They become My, my family outside of my home, I can go outside of my door. And I'm not afraid I can walk down the street in that because no one's willing to harm me, how long is it going to take us to do that? A while. But I think if we start if we start building a public philosophy around this kind of idea that we can in generations to come create a society that thinks this way.

    Bobby, go ahead, Michael,

    Bobby, wanted to ask you, you mentioned those eight steps to build public kinship. Because I believe you've hit on something that's really important here, this concept of kinship, this concept of feeling connected of being part of a family of a relationship, and dramatically changes as you unfortunately had to use that example. But to give that example, Could you walk us through those eight steps briefly?

    Sure, if you don't mind me reading them, because if I were to try to learn by memory, as I could have done five years ago, it will be a scramble. But I did write these. Today, I have to put on my glasses. And because I did them for someone. And when I was finished, one of my more, my youngest staff person said, I think you were wrong. No, I was not wrong. But what did I do? And I did I got in the wrong place. So I'm going to go through them one through eight. The first one is what I call Environmental Scan, and self leadership. Because this is all about self leadership, leading yourself. Now don't forget, I worked for years in a department under a wonderful, wonderful woman. Her name was Dr. Lorraine McKusick, a former Mother Superior, and she boys she acted like he must she was out of the habit while she was

    a bad dog.

    She just unfortunately passed last year. But Lorraine was one of those people who if you had a good idea, she would run with you with it. I mean, she'd fight anybody to get it done. And I She was my ally and getting this done. And it was like itself, how do you lead yourself to good action? And I'm not going to go through a lot. But that's the whole point. Could the officer has the ability to see where he was? See this group of people look at his environment, and then lead himself to the Action Memo that would have occurred. Goodwin a totally different thing. And, and I hate to do it in this way, but it's the only way we can understand it. In the young man, Mr. Roof, I believe his name was our of and at mmabatho. When he shot the people in prayer at their prayer meeting, when the cop policeman took him to jail on the way they asked him if he if he was hungry, and he said yes, and so they bought him a hamburger before they took him to jail. That is public kinship. Because the policeman evidently looked at him as his son or his nephew or someone that he he could relate to. So he was worried if he left Memphis was worried if you'd kill them, but he said he was worried if you were hungry. I may I will put a fine point on that. I'm stating so you can see the balance between public kinship and non kinship and how you treat people and how people are treated. So self leadership is the first one a scan that environment second is suspension of judgment, but not of common sense. Now I actually got that from my my daughter's because suspension of judgment simply means that you know, you suspend all your your ideas about someone is horrible, just by looking at them. And you know, and then you try to work something out. But don't lose your common sense means don't bring me anybody don't bring anybody home, just because you're suspending judgment. Don't tell me what you told me. I could like anybody. Yeah, I did that. I didn't say you could, like the first criminal you see walking down the street, that is not what I meant. So don't lose your common sense. And it's the same way with this. Don't, don't, don't, don't go overboard. But the point is, you've got to suspend some judgment in order to say, Okay, I don't know what I like these people. So we're going to have to suspend that judgment for a while until you can figure out how to even scan that environment to see what that's all about. So it's that relinquishing those previous ideas we have had about a group of people third, ethics in the development of a moral mind. That sounds very highfalutin. And yet it is not. The moral immoral mind to me is that we all have a mind and a mindset. And we all we don't understand it. I've been reading psychologist and psychiatrist for about teen years just trying to get a grip on the mind and the conscious and the subconscious. Even though I know a lot of them don't like Freud, I actually am a social scientist. So I don't like Freud, in parts. But a young Yong is even better. But the point is, the moral mind is creating a vocabulary that supports the development of moral action. So by that, I mean, if I am able to create, in my mind, a mindset of doing good action, and good. So I say good work with people, I can, in my mind, create, if you've ever done if you've ever done, for instance, when I first started doing my, my dissertation, I was trying to figure out well, I am have to get this thing done. And I finally had to get into a zone where I created a language that said, I will finish this, no matter what it may kill me, no matter how many times dr. Broad sends me back with this sheet of paper, I'm going to do it, I'm going to go back, I'm not going to cry, like I did the first few times, I'm going to go back, and I'm going to give it to him. And he's gonna give it back to me, and I'm going to give it take it. And in my mind, I was creating this, this, this, this engine of I can do this, I will get this done, and I will be finished. And when I finished, he said to me in the most I guess it's the most New York way of saying things, then talk it. And I'm like, that's all I get after three years of this. Good job kid. Okay, well, I took it and ran because it was what I'm waiting for. But in my mind, I had to create my own moral engine for getting there. Because I couldn't you can't allow yourself become very angry, I know people quit, they stopped, they just couldn't take it not because they were doing anything to them. But they kept feeling something was being done to them. A moral mind allows you to develop moral action for yourself. And that was very important community. Then fourth is taking a stand on that moral actions you've created in your mind, the two of you have created a moral action, you wouldn't be doing this, if you hadn't. You could be doing many things. I don't know where you live, but you'd be fishing could be doing anything. But you have created a moral concept in your head of this is who I am Michael, this is who I am, Steve. And when I leave here, this world, this is my epithet, you will know me by my work by what I have done. And this is a moral epithet moral language, you took a stand and you took that stand by doing the things that you're doing are taking extra time to help me to get my computer set up. So I wouldn't have a lot of glare. And it seems like a lot of strange little things that you're doing. But you see, I think sometimes we forget, it is a strange little things that at the end of life add up to the big picture of who you were, as a moral individual. I don't think I know people who knew Dr. King, and they said he was wonderful. But Dr. King didn't grow up thinking he was a moral leader. He was a little boy who did things all boys, you know, did and his parents got after him. You know, he was, you know, he wasn't Reverend Dr. King every time he saw me to 814. But he was building a moral life. And they would tell you this when it was a friend of mine, he was always a little different. And I think by that she probably meant he was more but the family was like that as well like was being molded by that. Next is...

    directed, I'd like to go back and stay on that point a little bit. Because it's such a crucial point. That we are the sum of all of our relations of all that have happened to us that helps build us and you use the term builds us. And the name with our show front and center is exactly purposeful, because it's it's time right now to take a stand. We need people to stand up to have that. But it's up to them to take those teachings and do what they can. But it is about building and you are the summation of all and you could have quit on that doctorial in Stan, I was a victim of something, you know, you ended up saying no, I was a little engine that could that story that we grew up with many of us the little light is the attitude that persistence that's necessary. So thank you.

    I will tell you this Michael Dr. broads, tell me the first paper I gave him. Where did you go to school? Now he knew exactly what was so because he had picked me out to come and study with him, a wonderful school. And then he said, what he wanted to know where my elementary and secondary education was. And so I tell him, and I won't give you the exact words, is that where you want to go and Sue those? You know, that's the guy total at the time was my girlfriend, I said, Oh, I felt like dying, you know, put my best foot floor and he said, You gotta go see what they have done to you. Oh, he corrected that in three years. But yeah, you're right. You know, it is. And most nowadays, no one can take criticism, you can't criticize people about anything, because you wind up with a lot of trouble. But participating is key. Once you've done all those things, that's what you guys are doing. You are participating. And this requires good faith, that you believe the what you have, you are trying to do yourself, not other people, because I'll forget, this is the Mike and Steve sale, it's what you're trying to do. And so you want to do, and getting people to participate, then you the fifth and sixth thing is, then you are connecting, you're connecting with me who you really don't know, but who believe that if I connect with this guy, this might further what I'm trying to do. And it's nothing wrong with that, it is not selfish, it is it is you should be attempting to gain people not to prop you know, missionary work or proselytizing, but that you are gaining ears of people to listen to what you are trying to say. And you do that through connecting and taking the steps to connect with other people. Then the last one is once you do that, you begin to assume a common culture. To me the assumption of a or the common culture is the key to all of this.

    If we as Americans do not understand yet, and this is all Americans, black, white, purple, whatever you are, we do have different ethnic causes, obviously, ethnic groups have their own ways of doing things. And then cultures but a huge society like our society, which is multifaceted, multiracial, and multicultural, has to have an overall common culture that we all can aspire to, can assert as ours. And that is not doesn't belong to this person or that person. But that I help to build that culture. And I work on that. And I think that is one of the keys. If I can get people to say, no, no, no, no, yeah, you can have your ear Jewish. That's fine. That's called I'm, I'm a Kentucky and I'm not actually black is not a culture. But I mean, you know, but there are about 38 different African American ethnic groups in this country. I'm worse and you know, whatever. I I'm Mexican, I am Italian. But I learned a very good lesson when I when I was in your life is a lesson when I was in Canada. One of my roommates was one was Chinese, but the other one was Italian. And so I was glibly talking one day, so no, no, no, no, no, I'm Sicilian. Well, you know, for me, I had to I had to know I'm talking Well, you know, in Italian to us means I Italian spaghetti. It mean anything else? At that time, I didn't know Robert dinero. who I love. But I mean, it was like my mother was saying, I think we're gonna get some itallian spaghetti. And we just thought that was this. Amy strings was amazing. We could do this. And so he said, No, we're this in Toronto. He said, We are Sicilian. He explained to me, and then he made a funny joke. He said, Well, you asked an Italian. He would tell you, you know Africa begins in Sicily as Oh, I get it. I get it. I got it. So, so I what I'm saying to you is that all of that is nice. All of that is real. But without a common culture, we will destroy the country. Now, I can tell you that without having to move, it won't be the Russians won't be the Chinese will be us because you got to have some common bond, which carries you through public kinship, begins you on that process and should lead you to accepting. I don't want that comment. I know what some pieces of that common talks are all we have it, but it has to be done. And that then leads to public concern. That's number eight. So those are the eight pieces of it. Some are very dictatorial, most are not, but the assumption of a common culture. Without that, I don't know where we go, because then I think we're getting further and further away from it. You know, today, I mean, you know, I hold them strange ideas, I will not give those today. Because I don't know somebody may cut off your funding, but

    We're not funded by anybody. We don't care. No Funding at all, we're proud to say that. So we're on free speech radio. And we're inviting seriously, Bobby, we're inviting you to share your experience, because we are in, as you would say, perhaps the most polarized and polarizing time since the American Civil War, and none of us were alive for that. And we're very interested in your your most Frank commentary about this, because part of this is really getting to a bigger sense of truth. Together. We just interviewed Randall Paul, I don't know if you know him. He said, Yeah, religious diplomacy. And he talks about different belief systems engaging with one another in a way where they fully share what they think knowing that there's a heart connection between the people. So that that's, that's enough to really hold the space to listen to ideas that may not be comfortable. So we are I'm inviting you. And Michael is to, to, to jump in. Because this is really the most vexing issue we seem to be facing right now.

    Right? No, no, no, I, thank you so much for that. Well, how long have you been one of those and tried to have the most vexing one I will not do yet, but it's the symbol symbols in our society, are the most vexing problems that we have. Because we all invest emotion, in symbols, no matter what those symbols are. And so whether it is in a flag, whether it is in a cross are a crescent, Moon, whatever the symbol is, we invest our emotion in it, some people invest their lives in it, which means to me, they haven't developed law mine, yet, they have invested, and a concept that they think will lead them somewhere. And usually it leads everyone to a dead end. I won't say all but I really find that when you become too and I've now I'm 77, I think I can't believe you come to invested in these symbols. You have nowhere to go. Because if I tell you that purple is purple and Amen, but purple and angle never change, but purple is purple and purple. We're going back purple, because there's no room for dialogue, discussion, nothing, it is dead. And I know that I've seen that happen in meetings and lots of things, I guess Protestants did for that, because as my mother says, Every time one person gets mad at another person, in church, they go split off and create their own church. And that's true, you know, having church at the church, or the church. I will give the Catholics credit, as the pope didn't allow that. So they had to just keep on going with it. We'll go. But you know, it's a major issue for us. Because we are so open to all people, which is great. We are open, you're free to worship, you're free to have your assembles to a point. And the point is, where is the dialog for how we get that done? I believe the sorry, it is not in the press.

    Go. I think you hit on something really, really important here on this symbol. Symbols being such a vexing problem. Yesterday, for example, and the tragedy here in Orange County of one of the soldiers was killed in the, in the aftermath there of, of Afghanistan. And this may sound harsh to some if they're invested in symbols, but I watch the incredible outpouring of grief. And we could go on a litany of these examples over the last many years that people pour out into the killings of different people, individuals, and all this. And yet, they won't take the time to think of the root causes of why, why why in the world? Are we putting so much emphasis on this young man who got killed in Afghanistan, when this huge problem of this war that's gone on for 20 years? What was the cause of that? Who benefited from that? Why did we allow that to go on for 20 years, and now we have this great outpouring of emotion for this one individual. And yet, by some accounts, how many hundreds of 1000s or maybe into the millions of people have died in Afghanistan? How many millions of people died in Vietnam, the Vietnamese people, and yet a soldier coming back with a draped flag got all of this attention, while millions of people were being murdered? And no one was focusing on what was the root cause? Why were we there in a war to begin with? So symbols, I think you hit on something that's so important people invest in these symbols, instead of thinking, What can we change? What are the causes that we can change that would bring us into connection that would bring us into family so that we would have that public kinship? So I applaud you for speaking out on this. It's something that we need to bring attention to. And I don't mean to get off on a rant here. But very important, I'm really anxious to get into your book about what we can do, as well. But please go on with civils I'm sorry to interrupt.

    No, no, I was I was finished. I mean, the last one, and these things will be in if I ever get this book done. I never thought

    it was supposed to be done by the end of September.

    I know there's Correct. That's only I know, I keep changing, does it it's a world you've seen. But uh, you know, the big one, of course, is the, the Statue of Liberty. And most people do not know the history of the Statue of Liberty. We all think we do. And we think that it was erected for welcome immigrants to the United States, which is actually not true. And was not the reason that it was erected. And it goes, there's a story behind it. Which may explain why you don't know the full reason. But that's that was given to the US, by the French, they probably would come and take it back now. But they they gave it to us because we there to fight a civil war, about freedom. And people. That was why and there were many people, when even though accepting the gifts, did not want to accept it publicly. That this was why was given. So just by happenstance, I paid but they may have asked her but I can't get that I have read a book or two on it. The poem was written and the statue took on the life of the poem, give me your writing. Which is interesting, but that's the life of a symbol comes in as one thing it grows, it develops, changes. And it is as as true as anything, that when orthodoxy enters into the public arena, the first thing they will say, and I use that advisedly, vague, truth does not change. Well, folks, truth changes. Truth changes every day. The world was flat, we now say it's round. And the truth changes because there is this interplay between religion and science. One which says it is fact base, the other which says it is fact and faith base for more faith based and fact based in America, we're in that ditch between the two that this is a conundrum of symbols and ideas and truth in American life right now. We probably cannot solve this. I tell you that is what we have been given. And we got to live with a, it makes your life really happy some days when you don't always think about it. And then some days it's very vexing to think about,

    you know what, what you're pointing out about this about this breach really has to do with one of the concepts and Michael and I've been working and playing with, which is cultivating a sane and sacred community. And that is something you had mentioned that earlier that that unifying idea that brings us together, regardless of these fundamental different ways of seeing the world. And what is it right now that is there anything that can create a true sense of you're not a phony one, but a true sense of unity that goes above and beyond these ideological barriers that are reinforced by the silo that you happen to be in? So it's in being intensified, not mitigated?

    Hmm. Well, um, I, yeah, I, I think I, over the years have come up with some things that I think could, but I'm not sure if we are willing to do it. And again, it's very simple. I think that we have to have something that touches the human heart in order to do it. And even though I love books, I'm not sure a book that. But I think music is it. I think music and possibly dance, but music, is and dance seem to be the heartbeat of the world. And people can and do understand something about music. If you see a person who can stand still through all kinds of music, well, that's not a human being. That's something that's missing. It's my first Indian powwow. And I was just going crazy. It was so wonderful. It was this and I was sitting next to a guy and he was and I was like, God, what is wrong with him? You know, he he just wouldn't let his emotions come over me. He wasn't prepared. So I'm not saying is the answer. But I think it is. And I think this whole issue of and it has been in our country, I would say, particularly among Jewish composers who have us various Idioms of the American music, ethnic Canon to the advantage of popular culture that has worked and it does work, and I believe it works well. I think it works extremely well. And I think that that's the classical a popular in the classical sense. But I think music is one of those keys I really do. And I I was struggling to think I think painting art could become one if we develop a public philosophy about who we want to be, you know, the thing that happened in Mexico, even though you know, all these countries, I'm leaving something out. That's important. That's technology. All of us are affected by technology, and we change our lives and our truths by the stupidity that we we we see on television, from people who don't know anything and just say anything, especially sort of for our newscast people, oh my god, they just anything can be said.

    But in Mexico, the muralists Rivera had a real idea of how to create the cosmic race, he called it rasa. And that was to these murals which painted all kinds of Mexicans blended into the Matisse elbow that ideal I won't go into the ideal American because that too much. But the same thing was done. By the Pope's, in getting, they got the best sign painters they could find to make Christ and God look Italian or European. And everybody ate up and got all about the semantics. That wasn't, they weren't in the posters. All over the world all over the world, and they went all over conquering. We all understood that. God was what You're a nice white guy, like a nice Italian guy actually. And, and, you know, the guy's not a grand fault. I don't think it was a grand plan. I just think they were trying to create Christians in Italy. And he was trying to tell a story to people who probably who didn't, couldn't read and did not understand it was in Latin, so forth. So the point is, yeah, I think those kinds of things, we have to get to music, art and, and blend some things and ideas and concepts together, enough said,

    you know, you reminded me of something, I think it was 2006 There was a Network of Spiritual Progressives Conference in Washington, DC, and a whole group was gonna march onto Donald Rumsfeld's home on Kalorama road, right. And, you know, my friend, Caroline Casey, who I love, you know, she makes fun of this by saying, what do we want better slogans? When do we need them now, right? That all of this these kind of things are actually people repellent. So, I, my idea was, if we got a Dixieland band, and we sang, when the saints go marching and walking up Connecticut Avenue, I guarantee that would have gotten a lot more play. And maybe Donald Rumsfeld would have gotten out of his house, right?

    Absolutely. Absolutely. You got it, you got it.

    He didn't listen to me, but you know, they don't listen to me. Well, that's a good sign, that means something very hard to do.

    I want to get back to something that's very hard to do, because I think that this is really one of the one of the core pieces that we want to get to today. And that is that in the 30 years that you've been doing this, you know, and looking at the obstacles, how much of this could be chalked up to what they call human nature? How much of it can be chopped up to 10,000 years of living under Dominator rule? And and then how much of it can be chalked up to the individual? nurturance? We do or do not get in our in our family?

    Well, I think it certainly it has, I think it is the second one you mentioned, because it is it is I don't want to necessarily say rule, but we are guided by the Supra the overall concepts of our society. I mean, we are Americans by virtue of a number of things, citizenship, but also by the symbols that are American to us and create, you know, American flag, the anthem, so forth and so on. But in homes, people also grew up learning what their group feels about these things, which are their personal and private. You know, okay. But one of the things that is so interesting about that is how the family is able to inculcate in the child, not so much. Um, I didn't grow up thinking that if I salute the flag, I was going to heaven or anything like that. But I did grow up thinking if I did not worship, I was going to hell. So you know it. So there are these things that you can break and the things that you cannot break? Or that you don't think about whether you're breaking it or not. And I think they're in some families, I think they didn't have that. So their unbreakable rule is Oh, my God, you can't touch the flag, because they came, I guess, out of Europe, where they thought that they did not want to go back into a peasant tree or into a king or, and somehow that even though it's 568 10 generations way, it is still somehow ingrained. And those who came as new immigrants, new immigrants have an almost fanatical sense of that anyone who does something to disrespect the flag has done something really on on reachable. Um, and see, I don't know, I don't get upset about that. You know, sweat spits on the flag. I guess I should, but I don't because I don't think the flag is a flag. It's what you do with that flag. Have you done good things that that flag? That all right, I will, you know, have you taken that flag? And you planted it in the middle of someplace in America and Appalachian and you've done some good affair, really? Because I'm in brown from Kentucky and I can tell you a lot of good It needs to be done. People have been treated abysmally in that region of the world. So it really is. That's a difficult question you asked. But I think that is the question that my book hinges on. So it is, Who am I first women? Who are they? And who are we? Those are the three big questions. And as the pivot questions I try to answer and this was taken so long, because it's a heck of a journey, trying to say things who am I? That's hard. And the good thing about this, I was telling a friend of mine, I said, you know, some of these ancients was so wise. I forget what was the name of the Oracle of Delphi, Delphi, where you, when you went to see the Oracle, I always read it, Oracle could tell you, you know, all these great things are gonna happen and but over the transom of the door, entering into the temple, It read, know thyself. That's the best thing a magician can do. Don't come in here thinking, I'm going to give you all the answer's no, yourself, know thyself, know thyself, then whatever I tell you will only help. So that's hard to do that's public and Know thyself. And then you might get some answers from that. So I do think that is a important part of what I'm trying to do. And from there, you go to, well, who are these other people outside of my realm? Outside of my home, outside of my community outside of my state outside of my country? Who and how do you define them? And how do you? That's the present world that we live in? How? How can we define the Afghans who we are murdering on? They are fighting us? We were fighting them, we were there. We don't know. Why would they ever were there?

    Who are they? Can we answer that question? Do we know how to act with our flag? Can we answer that with respect and we know why we were there. I'm hearing some real strange things coming off of Capitol Hill about why we were there. I don't think the military actually knew. And a sense of what I can gather why we were there. 20, how many? 20 years? 20 years? 20 years?

    Almost 20 years? Yeah.

    What's funny is? And then the last question was, who are we? Who are we, in my family? Where are we in our community, in my state, in my nation in my world, and I do think the big thing that Americans are going to have to become, and that's going to be hard, because Americans are going to have to switch to a far more cosmopolitan way of looking at the world. That we we may love Kentucky and Kansas and Missouri and LA and we got to keep all those things in mind. But we're in a global world, and we function that way. And so you can't have a society, half of it functioning one way and another half functioning at a very different level, where no one understands what the other one is doing. And that that is just I think, I think that is just a recipe for disaster. Because I don't think the Trump people understand what we're doing. But me, but but the government is doing, what they understood the plain and simplistic and hateful, I think language of Trump, but they did not understand the political ease of a policy wonkish. This, you know, all of a sophisticated class of people who were doing stage crafts for Russia. But that same stage crap doesn't work in Bowling Green, Kentucky, because it's a different audience. But what television is bringing you is everybody's getting the same strange message. And so there's what are they doing with my money? You know, why are you spending my money over there? Or as to the said, Michael, you spend all that money. So what I can do is I get to grieve over this one person in 20 years who got killed while serving in this war. You see how confused all that message is and gets and how, unless you're thinking about this in a consummate how you get completely fed up. And, you know, and just unable to answer the most basic of questions, because it's this triple level, a double level view of the world as we are world leaders something though the press loves to say Have we given up our leadership in the world, they know what they're talking about. But have we given up our leadership in the world? And then people back in Hoboken, Kentucky saying, I don't know I can't buy into my groceries this month. Is that leadership in the world? What Does that mean? How do you? How would you complete those? How do you answer those questions?

    Bobby ?

    Yeah, go ahead.

    Okay. You asked three fabulous questions, who am I? Who are they? And who are we? And I think, to answer those questions, takes an incredible willingness to seek the truth and have the curiosity to try to seek a continually expanding truth. A whole list like that perspective. You touched on it earlier, when you were talking about how truth changes, and you made the come comment by habit correctly, basically, science is fact based. And you made the example is it would, at some time, the people thought the world was flat, or a great portion of a bid versus the scientific method is always about curiosity to test and expand. Science has been said that it's it's something finite, it's been interpreted recently, when science, the scientific method is the opposite. It was to constantly push the window through constant experimentation, constant testing curiosity. And that level of expansion of truth, is what we absolutely must reinvigorate. So that we can answer all three of those questions to truthfully look at who we are not just from who we want to be from our ego state, but from who we are, as we impact others around us. Who are they until we can get into the totality of their experiences, we can't begin to think how we would act or be if we weren't the totality of their experience, and who are we from not just from my perspective, but from a holistic perspective. And we have to expand our curiosity and willingness to explore the true the truths so that we can get to answers that we can feel in our hearts comfortable with, and know that the truth that I know today, hopefully I can even learn more about it, and and broaden it, always and have that curiosity. So

    lovely. I love the I like I like, you know, I like that, because you make me think of what I'm one piece I'm trying to do now is that I'm in this little book, even though I say you know, it's fat based on what the scientists are now saying that the universe is ever expanding. It's not sitting still out there, folks, it's getting larger and larger. And the closer you get to it, the bigger it gets. That's me such a mystery in my mind, how could that be? And as a little boy, you want to how could that be? How does nothingness keep? And you see, there are just some things we cannot answer. And if we would just accept that. But I do like the idea of ever evolving, even though when you say evolution, that's the ever evolving evolution of this world. And you just said that my thought that was what he was, is that this ever evolving? World has this ever evolving truth. And these, and we have to somehow teach our children, this next generation, how to become a part of that. So we don't destroy what is and that's about.

    A key point to that is to not be ashamed of the past. But to learn from it. Keep it in repeated context. Yeah, not to repeat it, but not to be ashamed of it and countering it is to say, yeah, there were horrific genocide that went on in America as it was being settled and change settled, if you will change by the Europeans. But we just need to accept it for what it is and say, here's where we are today. How can we accept that? No, it is it happened and raise our level of consciousness and our openness to each other and say, Wow, you really suffered. So have we, the Europeans who came here, their culture had been decimated by people before them earlier on, if you go back far enough, I mean, now let's come together. Let's have a period of reunion and accept it. We've all walked a horrific path. Let's have it.

    That is something that I wish we would push. Because the impression is given in our history books. That no such a thing. oppression really existed for Europeans. And that is not true. They suffered horribly, oh, horribly, I say, probably

    I was lucky my ancestors werent given to the lions.

    Well, I mean, you still have people who don't believe in the Holocaust, we, we people have suffered horribly. And we simply want the fairy tale. We believe and this is not true. The American dream is not this fairy tale that people talk about. And I won't get into that right now. But if we could just have that doubt, if we could convene enough people to have just that dialogue that could begin something very important that suffering is not owned by one group. And that, yes, you need to say something about people who have suffered. And I think you need to apologize those people, and you need to do something about that. Because in this society, it puts them at a disadvantage. But the point of having a discussion that is real and not policy oriented, about the suffering of people, then, you know, unfortunately, we could all cry and are suffering, but at least we have a common stance to begin with. Slavery did not begin with African Americans. And as some people believe. They do. I mean, I mean, it did not. And, you know, we take our great narrative from the Bible, well, those were Jews who were slaves, you know. So it's, it's, it's a very interesting, dynamic, but we don't know how to convey it to one another. In a sense in this country, that makes sense. And we're going to have to do that because it is what has gotten us in this ball of confusion that we're in at the present time.

    When we met another good chunk, by the way, we're gonna be playing around with people moving out people moving in. Some people will remember that other people will go hi,

    I definetely remember that

    I would like to drill in if you could, in our in our limited time, because I would love we could have this conversation for hours, I thoroughly enjoyed this opportunity to to talk with you, Bobby. It's, it's wonderful. And the work that you've done over the last 30 years, I can't compliment you enough on what you contributed, and how many people's lives you've touched along that way that you have no even awareness of. So thank you for what you're doing. But I really want to drill into your the title that you gave us before about your book, what I can do to save my country? Because that is such an important question to be asking right now. Could you elaborate on on it?

    Sure. Um, I did it because, um, I changed the title 120 times. But this particular one, I have now, four grandchildren. And I have three boys and a girl. So I have two boys. One is about 13 and 14, and one is about 11. And about seven. But, um, as they are going through school and studying every now and then they you get things from their parents that they're looking at and thinking about, and my only thought was, you know, I'm alone, I won't be here long. So I should try and say, first, this is my country. I have a passport, but I've never tried to go anywhere else to live. I thought about it the last couple when Trump was president. But I did. But I said, Well, if I claim the common culture that I see, I believe in, but I must say, Alright, these these are the questions Who am I who they really are, what can I do? To say we and that is not just myself, not just them, but us. What can I do to save us and that sounds very may sound very pompous. But what it really means is taking public insert to the level. Alright, I'm not going to say what you ought to do. Most I think I'm American, I don't like people tell me what to do. And everybody tells me that you really do not like him to tell you what to do. And I'd say yeah, assuming the wife is like you. Well, you know, I grew up like that. So I find it grating for you to hammer at me as to what I ought to do. And I just there was a politician. I could not vote for his fingertip. So I don't like people who want to tell me what to do. But I love people to tell me let me reason with less reason. Let's sit down. Let's talk let's style let's do this. And so that's what this that book is about it is about the dialogue in between those three questions of what I can do for my country. And in that I talk about common culture, I talk about race, I talk about music. I thought that these are not just things like, brushed up against up my mind. I've been working on these and thinking about I, you know, and I use examples of people who've taken their great genius. I love Copeland Fanfare for the Common Man, I love things like that. And I say okay, so suppose we learned how to begin our, our, our basketball or football, we just got to have music, we have a national anthem. And before we went into that we did The Fanfare for the Common Man, what would be wrong with that? That is so American, and that is so us. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I try to do. I try to do a little ritual in it. Because I think we have human beings, we have a ritual. We love dance, we, you know, we maybe every so many years, we need a national powwow with everybody talking and, and listening and not acting like Native Americans, some kind of strange animals in America, who really had an idea that we and this is also very African. But but we didn't grow up that way ourselves. We grew up in America. So we were mixed. That's another thing I do I talk about the fact that most African Americans are very mixed. You know, they are not Canadians. Ask them to me, and he'll tell, you know, Bobby Austin is not they are not confused. We may be confused, they are not confused

    Same thing, that, you know, once you make it palatable, as something fun and interesting, I am doing work, I've done the work on country music, and how it has to become a key factor in culture, because it is music of people. But it is music that is blended between Africans, African Americans in the hills, and whites and Native Americans, this blending took place. But the people who keep telling stories, and I don't want to talk about didn't tell the full story because they were intent upon it becoming, say this whitewash. And you see, when you do that, if you tell that lie, it eventually catches up with you because it was not that way. It was it was blended music. With the banjo was certainly blended it was Africa and African America. And then it became a European because, like, stop playing because it was a part of minstrel shows, you know, you have to understand all have different reasons, certain things happen. Well, that's that's what I do in the book, when I say things we can do together. And then I talk a lot about repairing the breach. And I won't want to that, because that is long, but repairing the breach is about assuming this common culture and self leadership. I hope that's not too pedantic.

    I want to make one comment about what you said, because I think it's so very important. First of all, the word that you use reunion is a very, very powerful word, very powerful word kinship and reunion. As what needs to happen, then you mentioned the powwow. And the one thing that's never been tried is a conversation of ordinary people. We have the capabilities technologically to do it. That is not mitigated by mainstream media. Because mainstream media is about narratives. You know, it's, you know, the moment I knew that Trump was going to win and 2016 was when he was in a debate with Hillary, and he pointed to Hillary and he says, This is how politicians speak. And there was the understanding that we are being bull shafts, so to speak. And people are kind of fed up with that. And part of the disruptive dismissal of the East Coast elites who may have certain answers through their wonkiness is that who did these people think they are? It was Al Gore think he is telling me to not use this when he's got X number of mansions and exit number of planes. So part of the disconnection is is our projection of stereotypes on one another, and don't encounter those people all the more easy to put them in that group. So how do we bring people together in this formal and informal common dialogue, where we re humanize each other where we actually hear each other's stories? You know, going back perhaps 500 years, to where where that came from? Go, my God, we all have the same story. Now that we understand that, how do we begin that? How do we have that conversation?

    Yeah. That's have it. That's me, you and Michael. We're having it now let's make it bigger, broader and more inclusive.

    Yeah, I love that idea.

    Something on your homepage for repairing the breach Institute, which is neighborhood associates, which is your organization that you found it if I know correctly, something you said there, I wanted to touch on, quote, If you don't mind, it is this fundamental breach and perception. And consequently in action, that the repairing the breach Institute seeks to understand and address. But to do this, we need new narratives grounded in new approaches and new perspectives. I would like to suggest that one way we can achieve this is to frame the institute's work and collective voice through the lens of Human Ecology and public kinship. That really touched me. And I think that that is so important. And the consequently in action, as you said, there's a there's the group, one of the groups that I know you've participated in, listen first, which has a wonderful way to pledge I will listen, First understand, and there's a list of very well known, good intentioned people there that are the leaders. But where's the consequence in the action? And you've spent 30 plus years working on this? I mean, and there's others that have spent a lifetime that are that have come and gone that the sacrifices are made? Where is the consequences in the action, and we need to get government? One of the most important things I would like to ask you in the group is to focus on a question, how do we get we must get government on our side, it's, we've got all these leaders who say they're going to listen, but where's the action? The proof is in the action, the words, the symbols, and all of those things are meaningless without the action. And I think it's time that we stand up to our country, those who control our government today and say, your actions, no matter what you've said, is irrelevant. Your actions have proven that you are not there for the people, you're there for a few you're there for the special interest, you're there for your own power, glory, etc. We must change that. And to do that, we've got to get government on our side, the side of the people. And we've got to break free of the existing two party paradigm if that's what it's going to get out of this and break through with action, no longer words and symbols, but with action. And so

    no, I agree. I could add not one word that I absolutely agree with you on that. Absolutely.

    So we've been here, ah Steve, do you have any any final questions of our esteemed Guest?

    I you know, I've got lots and lots of questions. I've we were we were gonna have to continue this because I, I really think that there is a kinship here. There is a connection, there's a there's a common idea of perhaps, where we all need to go together. And in and in convening this. So perhaps the final question to kind of take us out of here is, what do you see Bobby? Particularly in, in younger people, that is given that seems to be a something that is pointing us in the right direction that goes, Ah, you know what, I think we might be able to make it after all?

    Well, you know, that's interesting. We are thinking like, I wrote a piece last year for the international leadership Association. They didn't publish it, but they loved it. And it was called the New American generation. And I did it because I was getting so sick of hearing that newscaster you signed up and greatest American generation, whatever that was. And that's worshiping war, of course, and I just those are the things that really irritate me, so I knew you might as well know me a little bit and there are certain things that just irritate the hell out of me and that is that no one else people who keep this country moving all kinds of it takes all kinds of people to keep the country moving. Okay, not just One time. But if you if you watched your television during that period and everyone in the world was you got to see a new American generation on the streets of this country. And they were everything. Everything that they say they were there some things I can't even say that they say they are. I mean, he her she it we whatever, all purple hair, green hair, pink hair, black, white, Asian, everybody was on the streets, fighting for justice and freedom of individuals. That gives me hope. And I don't think they're going to stop. I hope not, I don't think they will. I hope they're not living for one demonstration to the next. But I hope that they are putting some things together. But that gave me great hope. When I when I saw that kind of energy, take the streets of this country, and it did move this country, it is still moving this country. How long you know, everything in our country moves quickly. Because we we we certainly are a society that consumes things including news and events, and murders, and they become almost commonplace. And there was one time that was a one time I felt as if you can, who can feel sorry for an American president. I don't. But I felt very sorry for Obama the day he looked like he was just gonna cry. He said, If I had to do one more of these, I'm going to pray for you. And these funerals, you know, it's like, I don't think prayer is gonna get us out of this right now. And I think he was right. He was fed up. He was like, you know, this is not working? Did anybody actually, they hurt him. But I just said, Mike, what was the action? That's what we read, what action did you take Congress, but the lobbyists told you not to and so you didn't do it. And so people get tired, they get fed up. And then we get led into the trap of a Trump who's not going to do anything, but it will say that he will, and people will follow that. So I didn't answer your question I got off. But it the question is, the answer is, I think there is in this younger American generation, a more open idea of who they are, as they explore themselves in ways that we could never have imagined, just to think 20 years ago, that they are now doing. I think that may be that's gonna be a fight because they find the orthodoxy that surrounds them is very, very, very, very, very well entrenched. And so it may be that old people like us, become the the mitigators, the midwives between how this old and wonderful and difficult and unkind world dies, and a new one is born, because that is the struggle, the struggle of a new world, and an old world and a new one coming into into play. I do believe that.

    But unfortunately, that is a place where we'll need to stop today. I can't thank you enough Bobby, for being here. I appreciate your audience. I hope they've enjoyed the conversation and take away from it many kernels from the political battlefields to cooperative playing fields. It's a long journey. Let us go there together.