S11 E1 The 5 Ps of Inclusive Education with Dr. Shelley Moore

6:01PM Sep 6, 2023

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Keywords:

students

kids

inclusive

teachers

inclusive education

inclusion

working

intellectual disabilities

learn

podcast

peers

professional development

including

research

shelley moore

class

practice

school

curriculum

policy

Hi friends, I'm Tim Villegas, from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. And you're listening to think inclusive, our podcast that brings you conversations about inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. Today is the start of a new season. Season 11 Actually, Yep, I've been podcasting since 2012. And every year, I get a little bit better, I think. And this season is going to really be something. We are kicking it off with an amazing guest one of my favorite educators of all time. Dr. Shelley Moore, originally from Edmonton, and now based in Vancouver, British Columbia, Dr. Shelley Moore, is a highly sought after teacher, researcher, speaker and storyteller, and has worked with school districts and community organizations around the world in supporting and promoting equity for all learners. Her first book, one without the other is a best seller and her new book is scheduled to come out sometime this year. Shelley completed her undergraduate degree in Special Education at the University of Alberta, her Master's at Simon Fraser University, and recently received a PhD from the University of British Columbia. For this episode, Shelley shares her research findings on the key factors that contribute to successful inclusion, including positive attitudes, placement in inclusive classrooms, shared community and learning experiences with peers, purposeful goals and planning for all learners from the start. Dr. Moore also highlights the need for professional development that supports teachers in implementing inclusive practices and shares her insights on the current state of inclusive education in Canada. One of the great things about our conversation is that Shelley gives examples from secondary schools. In fact, that is what her dissertation was all about. So get ready for a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much to our incredible sponsor for this week's episode, changing perspectives, an international nonprofit that partners with schools and districts to create inclusive and equitable learning communities for all students. They offer customizable teacher training, family workshops, and curriculum resources. They've already helped over 300,000 students, 12,000 teachers, and 500 schools. Visit their website at changing perspectives now.org To learn more, and schedule a free meeting. Make sure you hang around until the end of the interview with Shelley where we both answer this episode's mystery question. And at the end of the episode, I'm introducing another new segment for season 11 called free time after a short break my interview with Dr. Shelley Moore.

Shelley Moore to the thinking cluesive podcast thank you

one of my faves.

So you are in your in prized company because you're a two timer. I am your a two timer now Katie know of Exedy timer. Yeah. Julie Causton is a two timer. I

love them both.

Paul occlusive tea timer. Reg, the originals? And now you two timer name company

I'm honored to be part of that. That role.

So anyways, I should have said Dr. Shelley Moore when I do because you have your doctorate. So how did you feel?

It's the hardest thing I ever did two years. Like it was so hard. And I can't even believe that I actually did it. But now that it's done, I feel amazing. Like there's so many things that I want to do now now that that's off my plate.

Right? And you were already doing all the things

I know but now I can do things like I want to be a gardener and I want to like learn how to barbecue really good. You know?

Okay, what do you like to like, what would you like to barbecue?

Well, I just like I'm from Alberta and like Alberta is where like the really good beef is no and I mean like all I know is like, like I burn it all the time. I don't know I didn't understand like BDM Mel, what well done. I'm like, I want to like really perfect, like a good steak, you know? Okay. Okay. So when my brother comes to visit, I'll be like, you want a steak? How do you want it? And I could just like whip it right up, and it's perfect.

So I'm the, we're going on a number of trips this year. So we're doing our road trip, and then it's my wife and I 20th anniversary this year, Lisa, um, so we are going out of the country, but so I keep telling, Brianna is that is my wife's name. And I said, Brianna, I really want a I'm not going to I'm not going to get it right. But one of the grills that's like a flat iron grill. Yeah, just a flat grill. She's like, do you want to go on vacation? Or do you want to grill? Yeah, I like vacation.

Well, I know. So like, I have all of these dreams now that I like and have the capacity in my brain to hold other things other than like, a thesis. So you know what, it was hard. I'm really proud of myself. It's not something that I anticipated would be something I would do in my life. And so yeah, I'm pretty proud of myself. And it won an award recently. And so it's just I just feel like, if anyone out there is working on their PC, like, just keep going, because one day it'll be done. And it is pretty a pretty great feeling.

Well, you know, I did. I did read it. Did you? Yeah, I read it.

Short. Tim.

Go. Okay, so when I say that I read a dissertation. I didn't read it word for word. No, no, I guess I would but but I did. I did go through the table of contents. And I looked at certain things. And that's actually where I put a lot of, you know, the questions. I really, you know, I'm really interested in, you know, the path forward, even because I don't know, if you, I don't know, if you're feeling this sense of optimism about inclusive practices, but I am. Yeah, you know, it's, it's,

I mean, COVID has been hard on everybody. And it's put everybody back about a decade. But you know, that saying is like, one step forward, or three steps forward, two steps back for the saying, I think we did like, two big steps back. But I also feel like COVID helped us, I think everybody in education realized that there's a lot of things that aren't working for all kids. And it kind of gave us permission to let go of some things. It forced us all to be innovative. And I think that now that, you know, we're kind of coming around, back to feeling some sense of normalcy, but also pairing that up with a huge, I think shift right now and understanding privilege. And, you know, the the role that diversity, equity and inclusion play in just the betterment of society in general. Like, I feel like there's some things lining up that haven't lined up before. And I mean, people are in the midst of it right now. And it is hard, it is calculated as messy, but like, I agree with you like I feel like we're I think we're starting to transition from the two steps back to like seven steps forward. You know, and you know, not not that it's feel it easy, but I feel, but I feel like people's vision. Vision has changed. Like, I feel like there's like a not just a practice shift happening, but some perspective shifts that are happening that are so, so critical to this work.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful with with what's going on in Washington and California. Yeah, yeah. And other states. So I want to I do want to talk about your dissertation. And the focus that you had on secondary schools. Yes, that's a question that I and we get a lot is, but what about inclusion in middle and high school? Right, lots of examples and elementary.

That's why I did it. That's why I did it. Because like, as a secondary teacher, I really wanted to figure this out for the students that I was working with, because I was in high school. And I was working with kids with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And I'm like, what does this look like for them? And whenever I was trying to find examples and professional development, it was always kind of K to 7k to five even. And I'm like, if we figure this out in grade 12, don't talk to me about grade five. Do you know what I mean? That I couldn't find and when I was doing my literature review for my dissertation, there's not a lot. My literature review is like, I mean, it's enough I had to I got 20 studies, but there's not a lot of secondary research out there. And I'm like, this is this is such a huge gap and the exact reason why I chose secondary academic because, you know, if there's no research and no one has seen it, I understand why people say it's not possible. You know,

So in your, in your literature review, you give this really great history of inclusive education and and how the practices have evolved from the Canadian and, and American. Yeah. Is that right? Oh, man, United States in which is not which is, you know, I don't think I've ever seen it, like, tear it up that way. So it was really it was really enlightening for me. But one of the points in in your history part was about LRE. Yeah. And so let me see if I can sum it up for you. And let me know if I, if I got it, right. The conception of LRE of least restrictive environment. The idea was always about, including learners, with their typical peers in general education classrooms, great intent, and, and curriculum like, everyone's getting the same thing in the same place. But that's not how people interpreted it. Yeah. And so putting this decision on IEP teams about where LRE is, ended up being problematic. So did I get that? Right?

Yeah. Because it turned into a very subjective decision about what LRE is. And you know, and a big conversation that's happening right now. Well, I mean, always has been in the disability field is if a student's not successful. It's from a from a social model. from a social perspective, it's because something in the condition isn't right, not something in the kid. But if a team is looking at a student through a medical model, and they're not having success, that could be interpreted as an LRE. Decision, as opposed to how do we fix the conditions in the environment decision. And so it puts a lot of emphasis on individual students success from a medical perspective, but also, it puts a really big decision on a team that have completely different philosophies. And there's really very subjective criteria. But what that is like there's no requirement for people to move away from the medical model. In fact, the entire special education system is dependent on it. And so your your determination of what is LRE could change, depending on the teacher. And that's, that makes for a lot of different interpretations, even if the goal is has very good intent. You know,

do you think this is where we came up with? Or do you think this is where the idea of a continuum, like happened?

Well, and here's the thing about and I think continuum of services also got misunderstood, like, to me a continuum of services is is that a student and in a family gets to determine where a child goes, not that a school offers a continuum of services, right? Because then the decision again, to what service is being offered comes down to a very subjective panel that often don't involve the student parent into the decision, like, where I went with a and that was, again, the general intent, like you must offer continuum of services to families. But again, it's not. The parents of families rarely have a choice. So it's not a continuum to families and students. It's a continuum of what's available within a different district for a district to choose from. Right. So I mean, like intentionally, like trying to move in the right direction, but what has actually happened is more students have been put into specialized placements and become less inclusive. Right? So it's a gets messy, you know, but Why can the well intentioned people like I had this conversation last week, and they're like, Oh, well, you know, this isn't, we're gonna have to change. This is why they're Ellery is self contained, because of blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Yeah, but with a different person, that may not be the right elbow replacement. So like, I think people are very well meaning but like, people only know what they know. And they only know what they've been taught. And so it really, really makes that decision rely on maybe someone who doesn't know what to do, and that changes trajectory of students lives, you know. So rather than the emphasis being, if a student's not successful, the attention goes to the place, not the kid. How do you change the place? What supports are we putting into the place, and that really shifts towards that more social model, but then it gives more opportunities for students to actually decide where their placement is and where they're best places to learn.

So in your in, again, going back to your history lesson. You describe the different paths regarding education, policy and inclusion Hmm. So, in your description, you talked about the South Salamanca statement, which I don't think I, if I did learn about it at all remember it? And this was like, oh, and then and then. And then I realized it was part of like the UN

Charter. With Disabilities. Yeah, it was pretty significant in Canada for sure, in terms of shifting. And there was quite a few like countries and governments that aligned to it. But this is the other thing is that you can and we have this question about governments all the time is that you can say you're doing something. But like, what does that actually look like in practice? And I think that this is, I think one of the biggest differences in terms of the history of US and Canada is Canada doesn't have any policy. Right? Like they align, and it's in the charter, but we don't have the same type of laws and compliance that America does. At the same time. Like, I think there's pros and cons to both like I would love to get a law into place. And you know, in the stuff that you take me in, in terms of New Brunswick, like they're one of the only places that that does have some laws, but it also is pushed is creating a lot of pushback and a lot of like it

yeah, yeah, I do want to I do want to talk about New Brunswick, maybe not right now. Maybe Yeah, towards the end. But yeah, so that's interesting. So so what you're what what I'm hearing is that even though in practice, some of the some of the provinces probably include more kids, and there's more of a history of including learners. There's the policy, the policies that protect that aren't as strong as maybe they are the United States, except that in practice, the United States historically hasn't included

honestly, it's kind of like, we need the best of both. So for example, there is an expectation, that's our policy, there is an expectation that all provincial and territorial ministries provide inclusive education. Okay. And so, the and that has influenced a lot of belief. You don't I mean, like I would say, across the board, more students are included. In Canada, it's not perfect by any means. But like, for example, like even just in Ontario, they're starting to pass policy around D streaming or D tracking. Right. And so because there's this whole other big conversation around well, because people think they're being inclusive, because they're being inclusive to the kids who are there. But they're not asking the questions about who's missing and who's getting sent away, right. And so like, there's there's another thing about Canada's that we're not a national, or we're not like a federal education system. So every province is going to be a little bit different. So in British Columbia, where I'm from, I would say, we're probably like, New Brunswick, comparing New Brunswick and BC it's very fascinating. As the policy and the laws BC doesn't, right. And so it's kind of just looking at, like, how does that actually enact in practice? I know in British Columbia specifically, that's what I am the most familiar with. There there is. There is a fundamental culture that inclusion is important, probably more than anywhere I've ever been, like, people know that we need to do it. And it's important. It doesn't mean there isn't pushback. It doesn't mean that like, kids are not included. Like of course, of course, there's still programs, but like, from the perspective of teachers and families, especially and administrators, I think like we're on the same page in terms of we need to move in this direction. I mean, if are there is enough resources to do it. No. It's Does everyone know how to do it? No, but I think like that. That underlying belief is there. Right? And so, on that hand, we don't need the policy. But what we do need are the infrastructural conditions and resources to make it happen. In other places, there's policy and there's laws and there's like, you have to do this, but there's no policy that can force someone to believe that it's the right thing to do. There's no law about moral imperative. And so, you know, in a need of so it says balance between how do you shift mindset, but also, how do you provide resources for people who are actually making it happen? Because also the people who push back are also often the loudest? You know, whether it comes to parents or teachers or administrators. And so it's really so that's why I think like the continuum of services actually, I think makes sense. From a student point of view because it's also not about forcing people together for the sake of policy, but allowing students and families to say like you will be and receive equal access and support in any of these settings, which one would be good for you? So the opportunity makes it equal, the choice makes it equitable, but that's not how continuum of services are used at all. Right? And so, you know, it's, there's so many moving parts. But then on the other hand, so this is why like, there's, it's clear as mud, right? Because the belief is so strong in some places, a lot of people think that they are being inclusive. And then you go, and the kids err on the side with a para, right? Because they have this understanding, well, they're here, they're enrolled, and we believe in it. But like, there's no shared experiences all but that I worked with another group where kids are still totally in self contained classrooms, but this school is like, we are ready to blow this up, let's do it. I would almost rather work with the school, who has the huge potential for growth, but actually knows they have growth to do versus a school where the kids are there, but they think they're doing it, and they have nothing else to learn. So I mean, like, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's been really fascinating to see the different contexts around the world. And the interpretation of what inclusion is, like, I can't tell you how many places I've been where like, yeah, note, we're being inclusive, but kids with intellectual disabilities are still behind three sets of double locked doors. And I'm like, you can't just choose for your including, like inclusion actually, like when we say All means all we mean it. You know, it's also who's not here. And so it's like, those types of hard conversations are having to be had. But like, there's some people who just have never seen it. Right? And so they just, well, meaning people are just like, Oh, I just didn't, I just didn't think that was possible. You know, because very few of us grew up, in truly, anyone grew up in truly inclusive context. So I mean, this is not only shifting a paradigm, but it's shifting practice and thinking and structures and an infrastructure of education that wasn't designed to be inclusive at all. So I mean, there's some deficit legacy monsters out there, you know, you know?

Let's talk about the research. You did. Yeah. And some key takeaways, as far as what needs to change? You know, we've been, you know, maybe, maybe in specifically secondary schools, you know, maybe in practice, some schools are getting it right, some maybe in practice in some schools, maybe their mindset is there. But what are the what are the big things that we need to change as far as how we're including learners.

One of my favorite parts of my dissertation was when I had to do a lit review. And I had to look for other studies that were including students with intellectual disabilities in secondary academic classrooms. And I've always had this hunch, Tim, as soon as I started working in the world of intellectual developmental disability, I was like, these kids hold the answers to education, like, what they need is what everybody needs. So I've always kind of thought that. But then when I did my literature review, and I looked for, like, what do all of these studies have in common? Like, basically, like, five big ideas came out, and I looked at these big ideas, and I'm like, every kid DC is like, like, It's the secret to education. So I'm going to tell you what these five big ideas are, and you're not going to be shocked. Okay, I'm ready. Right? I think it's a really good almost like a reflective activity, especially as a leader to say, which of these five pillars are our strengths? And which of these five pillars we didn't know existed? And which of these five pillars do we need to work on? Right? And they're very, they're very integrated, and I argue that they build on each other. But okay, I'll tell you, and then we can talk about ready. Okay, ready? Number one. Now, keep in mind like this is specific to secondary contexts, you'll see how applicable This is to every single kid in the system. Right? Okay. Number one, research says that one of the most impact factors to the success of inclusion is positive attitude. I mean, of course, right? Do you believe it's possible? And do you believe that all kid can learn in any context? And you know, to be honest, I've never actually like met someone who said to my face, they can't be here because they can't learn. But what happens is every decision that people make, including the people who are determining LRE, right, they make those decisions. It's based on some very hidden biases about presuming competence towards students. And you can be as well meaning as you want. But if you don't think it's possible, you're not going to enroll the student. And that's exactly what the research showed, was in the high schools, I was working with students were enrolled in academics, up to grade eight, and then it dropped right off. Right. And like, these people were incredible. You don't I mean, it's not that they were ill intended at all, like, they just, they had never, they never like, they just were like, no, no, it's not meaningful for them. And I'm like, but that's the point. We make it full, you know. And so and so that's why that one really connects to the other ones. Because if you don't have that positive, positive attitude, and the possibility thinking, kids aren't even going to get it, they're not even gonna get in the class. Right. And we see this a lot. Like there's kids who are in electives. But that's it. Right? Right. And the older kids get the variability increases. People are like, Oh, we can't close that gap. I got a meeting this morning about a teacher lovely. And she's just like, I teach a grade seven math or grade seven science class. And I'm a student with Down syndrome in here. And I love that she's there. But I have no idea how to bridge that gap. You know, and I'm, like, I said, I'm like, Thank you for like, allowing for to come there. Because that alone tells me that you think it's possible. I can work with I don't know what to do. I can't work with, it's not possible. And it's what it's way safer for teachers to push back and have challenging behavior than it is to admit that they don't know what to do, especially in secondary, right. And so that positive attitude is I call it the easiest. And the hardest barrier is the easiest, because it's free, it costs no money to have a positive attitude. But it's the hardest because like, there's no law you can pass to make people see it. Right. You know, and so I just find like, the more people can see it, the more they believe it. Like it's like, if you build it, they will come with this the Field of Dreams to Okay, ready? I believe that right? Okay, so number one positive attitude number two, students actually have to be placed in an inclusive classroom or program.

Oh, so they have to be there. They have to,

they have to be enrolled, they have to have a spot. And I need this looks seems really obvious. But there's a lot of kids who are not enrolled. They don't they're not even at the school, they're sent away. Right? So this really gets to that question is, who are we planning for? And also, who's missing? It's really around that equity conversation who's not there? And are and do all students have the opportunities to learn both electives and academics with their peers? And have I have high access to grade level curriculum? Lella? All those things. Okay. Okay, so I believe they're there. And honestly, this is often where it stops. There there, we believe it's possible. Let's go right. But the other three are, is what moves it from just existing to actually like being meaningful. So the third one is that students have that all students have shared community and learning experiences with each other. So that kids are surrounded by peers, not adults. And this was probably the biggest challenge in our schools that kids were there, the attitude was there. But students with disabilities were working with adults, they weren't working with other peers. And so that's a lot of the research around the effects of proximity between students, and how that affects participation between students. Because a lot of this is if we, if we create shared experiences with students, they are going to interact and participate together. But it can't always just be a helping role. Like it can't just always be a peer helping a student with a disability, because that's not an equal relationship. And that's not going to lead to friendship. But if we can create shared learning experiences, or shared supports experiences, or shared social experiences, that's where that that shared and mutual relationship comes in. But it also brings up a big question around what's the role of adults, whether it's a parent or a teacher, when to come in and when to come out? And, you know, moving away from that one to one because it's, it's actually getting in the way, one of the biggest barriers which we know. So we believe they're placed there participating with peers. My second favorite. And this one is about purposeful goals. And it talks about, because if you if you know if you know, Tim, I'm trying to blow up IEPs because, oh, we're not designed to be inclusive, there'll be implemented in inclusive classrooms. And so, classrooms have evolved to become more inclusive, or at least they're trying but IEPs aren't have not changed at all. And so part of this is, if students are going to be included in the general education Classroom, the general education classroom with their peers, their goals have to align not be disconnected and sometimes contradictory. And so this one is lining up. We want IEP s to be aligned to community, we want IEP s to be aligned to curriculum, we want IEP s to be aligned to assessment, we want IPs to be aligned to accommodations and supports. And so it acts almost as a blueprint for teachers instead of a separate plan they have to follow that's completely disconnected. And so that that that fourth pillar is how do we make this placement purposeful for an individual, but in a way that's also connected to the community? Not disconnected?

Interesting? Yeah, yeah. Next book, are you dropping this knowledge? On the very late

because I tried to do a book and a dissertation at the same time. So I know, there's many people who are waiting. But that's the next book is like, you know, how are we evolving IEP is to align with the community. So students are placed in in purposeful ways.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Aren't there there are tools right now, though, that have like planning matrices? And, like, yeah, educators can align IEP goals with an inclusive placement? You know, it's true,

except here's the, okay, is that those matrices are very often based in deficit skill areas. Or they're over focusing on social, behavioral and communication. They're not actually like, in my research, there wasn't one IEP that had a curricular goal derived from grade level curriculum. They were all individualized, personal social communication, behavioral goals. And I'm like, everyone else's learning curriculum. They have to, which brings me to my fifth P, you ready? Okay. The fifth P is, how are all students planned for from the start. And this really is pushing back against what we all were taught to do, which is we have to modify for individuals. That's, that makes the workload of inclusion so high, and that's when people push back against inclusion, because retrofitting will always require more resources, then designing something accessible from the start, like that's like the essence of UDL and architecture. And universality is so the fifth key is, how are we supporting teachers to be able to say, here's my grade level outcome, how am I making that accessible for everyone, and challenging for everyone at the same time, so you don't need to adapt and modify. And that's probably the biggest question I get is, How do I make this meaningful, I don't have time to adapt and modify. And it's not the role of the parent to adapt and modify. So there's just a lot of waiting around for kids, or goals that are social and behavioral. what everyone else was learning curriculum, and what happens when kids don't feel purpose, and they're waiting a lot. challenging behavior, anxiety, disengagement, non attendance, and then we say, Oh, this placement isn't successful. Well, of course, it's not they weren't designed for. But that's but again, like, that's a question for all kids. I mean, we're coming out of a pandemic, where nobody is where they should be. We can't just like, say, planning for where kids should be, and then adapt and modify where they're not ever going to be having to do that for every single kid. Right? So this is where's what's my curriculum? Who are the kids who are in front of me right now? Not 10 years ago? Who are the kids that are from era whether they have disabilities or not? And how do we support teachers to design for them all from the start? I wasn't taught how to do that. I was taught how to adapt and modify. And so like, once I started to realize this, I'm like, no wonder people push back against inclusion. No wonder people are streaming and tracking, because it makes sense. If we are expected to adapt and modify for every kid that doesn't fit. So that that p is the most important and my most favorite, which is how do we support teachers to collaborate to work together to say, how do I take not abandon? How do I take my grade level standard, and make it into a plan that is responsive to the variability of my class? Before my class even walks in?

Yeah, it was lost on me until you said that they were all peas that they were all peas, ah, the five peas. The five peas,

positive attitude, placement, peers purpose plant for

nice. There it

is. There it is. There it is, was one of my favorite parts of my research because I got to like look at these schools and say what's in place? What were areas did they grow in what you know, what's their next step kind of thing, but then the actual research was working with these teachers and teaching them how to do so we had professional development over the year where a classroom teacher, a gen ed teacher, a special education teacher came together. And we taught them we showed them how to design for all and every single one of them shifted and the big finding was like this makes it easier for everybody. It helps everybody out. But because it was scaffolded, or there was there was seven case study students all who have intellectual disabilities. And two of them passed, the class was credit like they, because the conditions were right. They showed evidence at grade level. And they received credit for the class, which most people I talked to don't think as possible. And so it's one of those examples where if those conditions aren't right, then we may say, Well, it's an Ellory decision. That's not that is not the least restrictive environment. But like, with a little bit of support of the teachers in the environment, not only was it absolutely the least restrictive environment, but actually be became an opportunity for them to pass pass the course was credit, like it was an English 11. Class. You know, yeah. So.

So what was different about the professional development, that the that the educators received? That is than what is happening right now, if I if I say PD, you know, most people have an idea of what that is. So I don't think that's what you mean.

No, and I think that this was a definitely an underlying thread is like, even when I was working with Kenny Novak, this week, the word training kept coming up. I'm like, no, no, I don't use that word. It's purposely I don't use that word. Because this isn't a training, if we expect every teacher to do the exact same thing, or how do we expect them to not do the same thing with other kids, like, if we want to be responsive to kids, we want teachers to be responsive to kids, we have to be responsive to the teachers. And so we moved away from everyone having to do the same thing to everyone going through a similar learning process. And so this whole professional development was tied to an inquiry model, where they all joined by choice, because they wanted to learn about inclusive practices. And we presented them with new information each time that was very practical. But when it came time to actual implementation, and the practices we were capturing, they got to decide. So they, you know, scanned their class and determined the needs, and they got to decide which practices they wanted to implement and try out and they got time to plan that and they got to pick and try the practices that were meaningful to them and their kids. And so that's, that's kind of a different approach, then, you know, I know even the training that I went to, which is like, you must implement this with fidelity, in the exact same way as the person down the hallway. But I'm like, the process was the same for everybody. Everyone asked questions, everyone reflected, everyone had next steps. And the content that we were working through together and the resources they had access to, were based in research and evidence. But like they got they weren't lost in the process. And their kids weren't lost in the process, they were able to choose based on their own questions, their own interests, the students needs. And that situated context is, is so powerful in professional development, because it doesn't strip the diversity of teachers, which is what we're telling them to do with their kids, right? Like, we have to maintain the integrity of the diversity, not the program. And so you know, in that, and that's the beauty of the model. And so that was an absolutely, a thread that ran through this was not just how to support teachers, or show people how to do it, but to do it in a way that honors their autonomy as a professional, and honors, you know, their ability to make professional and responsible decisions about their communities.

Yeah, it makes sense that it you, you're gonna want to develop educators that like you're developing learners in the classrooms. And so that's not a that's not a big leap. But I don't think that I'm sure that there's, we need more professional development like that.

Absolutely. Which is why I kind of really appreciated it, because it's starting to happen, where it'll be a series of sessions, and not just like, what, one two hour session where we fill our cups up, and then we leave and it's like, nothing's going to be implemented to it. I mean, but it's like, Okay, here's something new, let's come together. What do you think, cheers some time to reflect? How do we learn from each other? Yeah, and one thing that I really learned in California this week working with Katie was just how she, how she balanced the time that we talk, and the time that people learn from each other, right? Because I think, you know, in this whole underlying all of this is this big conversation around that education is very colonial, where one person knows everything, and we're bestowing knowledge to empty vessels, and that's how we treat kids but that's also how we treat teachers. And so understanding that like teachers also have a really important role as a resource to others and if we want our kids To be working together and learning from each other, we have to model that in professional development with teachers. And that's what we saw. And that's also so much more sustainable when I'm now out of that. And they're continuing to work together, when that facilitator it has moved away. And so, you know, in terms of professional development, the research around that inquiry model is profound. In terms of shifting the practice, if that's the goal is to shift the practice. We can't tell them what to do.

So I'd like to know, what you learned from the students with intellectual disabilities. Oh,

so Okay, that was that was my favorite part of my research. So I interviewed teachers, and I also interviewed the students in the classrooms. And I was really interested in these particular classrooms that I was working with these teachers, you know, how was this experience by the kids? You know, like, what is this class like for them, and it was pretty open ended. But I got to talk to like, oh, at least 50 kids, and I asked him like Lena, like, how was this class? Like, what do you like about it? What's hard about it? Like, what works? What doesn't work? And there are some very, very cool, what's the one learning was that every single student I talked to believe that inclusion was important. Like, they were like, No, this, of course, is a school, like, there was a student, there was one student, and I asked him, you know, what's it like that so and so is in your class? And he's like, I don't What do you mean? And I'm, like, you know, like, because kids aren't always included, like, so you are in this opportunity to be the simplest class. He was, he was a general education student, he did not have a disability. And I'm, like, you know, like the student, she has an intellectual disability, like, we know that right? Like, what's it like for you? And he's like, I just don't understand this question that you're asking me? Like, why water is wet? Like, the student has been in my class since I was in kindergarten, like, I don't, I don't know what you're asking me. And I'm like, that non response says a lot, right? And he's like, it's like, that's all I know. Like, why wouldn't they be there? You know, and so I learned from the kids that, like, it was it was, when I asked them, what's it like to be an inclusive classroom, they looked at me, like I was completely out to lunch, they were just like, this is the school concept, because they've grown up together, which is the beautiful thing about this district. Okay. The one thing though, that was interesting is when I actually asked them about how inclusion worked in their classroom, there was a few very interesting findings, and one was the students with intellectual disabilities. They all communicated in different ways that this was a place that they liked to be that they had friends in these places, but they weren't the only kids with disabilities in the class. So there was this group that emerged, that was not a case study at all. But they were other students who have disabilities in the class, but they self identified so they have more like learning disabilities. Maybe they have autism without an intellectual disability, right, like, so they weren't one of my case studies students, but they emerged as a subgroup. And what they said was fascinating. So there was this one particular student and she was like, I feel like we're, we're all treated the same. Right? She's like, but I don't actually think that meets my needs. You know, she's like, everyone learns different. So for actually being treated the same. I don't think I'm going to be successful. And I'm like, it was so good. It was so good. The other thing was this, this group that emerged, they were the students that communicated that they felt the least sense of belonging. And then when you dig deeper, you realize that this group that communicated that they have the least sense of belonging, every single one of those kids had the least interactions with their peers. So I mean, it just was, you know, that the importance of community, but sometimes we're very, very aware of kids with very visible disabilities, and their sense of community and belonging, every single one of my kids with intellectual disabilities were like, all these kids are all these, they're all my best friends. But there was this other group that it's the kind of have more invisible disabilities where they didn't feel that right. And so it just was like, this is bigger, this is bigger than just the students were thinking about. And then and then the other. The other fascinating thing was, when we were looking at how the how the paraprofessionals were being used in the room, there was one particular class that had a one on one, and they were the only one that interacted, that was the only person student interacted with. And that particular student had not one interaction with a peer socially or learning the entire for any observation that I did, right, and so I mean, it's just like what I learned from the students was probably the most valuable All information in this whole research study was, you know, their their sense of belief was there. But it didn't mean that they're perceptions of belonging and equity. And you know, and struggling with that idea of equality and equity. Like, I don't know why we don't talk to kids more often because they nailed it. And it's so much more powerful coming from them than it is coming coming from me. Right. And it just was, I'm so and I almost didn't, because I was so late in my dissertation. And it was an extra question that I didn't have to do. But I'm so so thankful that I kept it in there. Because getting that student voice was I think, what made this research come to life.

After a short break, Shelley, and I answer the mystery question.

The mystery question is, Which magazine? Would you like to be on the cover of?

So that's a hard one because like, there's like my favorite magazine. That of course, I would love to be on the comfort of, which is also the like, which one should I be looking at? Do you know

what it says? Which one would you like to be on?

Okay, well, I would, I would, I would love to be a National Geographic, because they have the best visuals. And it's so interesting. And they have interactive iPad apps. Like, it'd be so cool. Oh, yeah. No, like, things flip around. Like magazines have will enter a whole new genre these days.

Oh, gosh, you are so right. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know about you. Well, I don't subscribe to any magazines. anymore. I used to a lot. But in my previous life, I would have wanted to be on spin, or stone because I was like, uh, you know, I was like a musician. Yeah, like, Oh, if if only I was, ya know, like an indie rocker on spin or something like that. Yeah. But now I'm not. I'm not sure. Maybe, maybe Education Week?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that, you know, I was thinking like, maybe you could be like, like one of the top 100 influencers, and you might America you can be on Time Magazine and some like, like, oh,

post art, with my headphones and microphone.

I mean, I would buy it. My dog made it a national or Canadian Geographic. And it was a very proud day for us.

Oh, that's so nice. I know. If I don't remember,

well, this. This was Finley, and he passed last summer. But he was an Irish terrier. And they had this they always had this contest on Instagram, like tag Canadian Geographic. And, and so I did all the text. I love taking photos. And he was such a good subject. And we actually got in twice because they always had that, like, take your pet section. And

that's nice. It was so cute.

That is cute. It's memory lives on in Canadian Geographic.

Absolutely, forever. Dr. Shelley Moore, thank you so much for being on thinking inclusive, and we appreciate your time.

Thanks so much, Tim. Always a pleasure.

One of the best things about having a podcast is figuring out how to spice things up a bit. And as I've grown as a podcaster, and producer, I've been trying to take more risks. So case in point, the mystery question, which will now be a regular segment on the podcast, and something else. I'm calling free time. And so where that term comes from just in case you don't know, free time in a classroom setting typically refers to periods when learners are not engaged in any structured activity or lesson. But during these times, learners have the opportunity to relax, socialize with peers engage in independent reading, or pursue other non academic interests. So what free time will look like for each episode will be a little different each time for this episode, we're going to start off with something really simple podcast recommendations, and I have two that I think you're really going to like the first one is a podcast called The beyond six seconds. Carolyn keel friend and former guest of think inclusive recently had a guest on her podcast, Nate Shalev, and they talked about trans and artistic inclusion at work, specifically the intersections between transgender and autistic identities. I thought it was really fascinating. You all need to be listening to Beyonce. Like seconds Carolyn does a great, great job on her podcast. And the second one is the lucky few. I was fortunate enough to be a guest on their pod earlier in August. But their most recent episode is called included, seen and heard the impact of successful inclusion. They had the principal and two teachers from a school in Brooklyn, P S. 15. That was featured in a New York Times article about inclusive education practices. Really interesting conversation. Check out both beyond six seconds, and the lucky few wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks again to our incredible sponsor changing perspectives. We're so happy to have you on board. Love thinking cluesive. Here are a few ways to let us know. Rate us on Spotify or leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Send an email and let me know what you thought of this episode. Email me at TVILLEGA s@mcie.org or become a patron for extra stuff. This week. I'm posting around 11 minutes of extra audio. From my interview with Shelly it's a must listen for super fans. Go to patreon.com/think inclusive podcast to sign up. Speaking of patrons thank you to Carol Q. Aaron P. Jarrett T joiner a, Cathy V. Mark C. Gabby M and Kathleen T. for your continued support of think inclusive. For more information about inclusive education or how MCIE can partner with you and your school or district visit MCIE.org think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me to Vegas. Original Music by miles credits. Additional music from melody. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works.

So Katie Novak and I have been working virtually with Washington and California. And on Monday we met for the first time in person. It's like we've known each other forever. And we just had an absolute blast and we are both wiped right out. But we had so much fun.

That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

So much cake.

Are you a cake person?

No, but it's one of the metaphors. I mean, I'll eat it obviously. Right but it's one of the metaphors and so people either feed me cake or baked potatoes

MCIE