Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.
Hello, and welcome to the thoughtful counselor. This is Mickey white. And today I have the pleasure of speaking with doctors on arias and Monica Delgado, I'm very, very excited to have you both here. And I'd love if you just give us a chance to tell us a little bit about yourselves and how you came into the counseling profession. Of course, thank
you so much for inviting us to be with you and have this important dialogue. So again, my name is and I went a little better. Yes, I am an assistant professor at California State University Fullerton in California, but I'm originally from New York City. I was born and raised in Washington Heights. And for me, that's really where my passion and love for Community Care and healing really started. And I think that's at the foundation of the reason why I decided to become a counselor my own experiences as a queer adolescent in New York City, although you would think being so close to the village and to the pier, that there was a lot more acceptance and in some ways there was. And then in other ways in my smaller community of Washington Heights, there was still a lot of heterosexism and a lot of discrimination and violence towards LGBTQ folks. So for me as a child coming out and going through the process, I always felt like an outsider within my community. And I wanted to make sure that they were counselors that looked like me that there were counselors that spoke multiple languages that could support queer folks of color, particularly queer Latinx folk. So that's really at the core of why I entered the counseling profession.
Hi, well, thank you for inviting me. My name is Winnie peddled litigant, the dilo. I'm a licensed professional counselor in Texas, a registered play therapist. And I also do mainly lecture adjunct work at universities, I don't have a I'm not a core faculty anywhere. But Counselor Educators also my identity. I was born and raised in San Antonio, right. I really love San Antonio, for a lot of reasons. And also for other reasons, not so much. Right. And so it's incredibly segregated, right? Like you know that the North side is where all the white folks live. This house side is where all the brown folks live, right? And so coming from a not so rich actually like pretty poor, low SES family system. I had firsthand on like the discrepancies and and like saw, right, like the difference in in the city. And, you know, one of the I was in bands in high school, I remember that. And we would have to rent a U haul, while the Northside schools had their own 18 wheelers to transport their equipment. Right. And so, you know, as I grew up, I remember when they weren't whenever they would ask, What do you want to be when you grow up? Right? From like, elementary to middle school to high school, you know, people were doing, you know, your teachers, firefighters, you know, things like that, when you were young. I always said that I wanted to be a counselor. And I have no one in my back. Like, you know, I am lucky now, right? Like, my family is immigrant from Mexico. And, you know, it's their mental health is taboo. Sometimes they're stigmatized, so like, I have no one around me that that is a counselor. So I haven't No, actually don't have a clue where that thought came into my head. Right. And so, it was something that just stuck. And, you know, and then seeing my development going into mental health professional fields. Before I even became a counselor. I was like, here it is. Right I saw not the discrepancies in in health care. are in counseling and mental health, depending on the communities, right, I speak Spanish and one of the things that I immediately saw was just the lack of representation, or even permission, but spoke Spanish, anybody that looked like me, anybody that that sounded like worried. And as I, I kept going, went and got my LPC from from here, and then realized that there's just not a lot of, I need more power. Right, I needed more, I needed to step into doors that I couldn't, and the PhD was going to get me there. And it was my prime motivation for getting that so that I can go and be part of the room, right, be part of the discussions, be part of the, you know, everything right, even though that in itself was very scary, and, and the process is, you know, difficult. And that's where really I got the opportunity to, to work through and seeing what health looks like for bypass bipoc. queer folks, right for for folks with different identities for just how they intersect and how that looks like not just as a clinician, but as a future professor as, as somebody that works with students. Right. And so for me, it just, I can't pinpoint the process of like, where I wanted to be a counselor, but I knew that it was always done integrated. As I kept on growing, it was just part of who I well, you know, one of the one of my professors one time, so like, do you, are you a counselor, because you counsel? Or do you counsel? Because you're a counselor? Right? Like, is it? Like, is this part of who you are? Or is this part of what you do? Right? And I think that for me, it's, it's so integrated in my being that it's hard for me to pinpoint what made me go into this field.
Yeah, and I really hear from both of you this sense of, for lack of a better or less overused phrase, kind of be who you needed when you're younger, in some ways, this representation aspect and really wanting to serve communities that need that need services, and need services from people that can relate in a very different way, then, I think, kind of the history of the counseling profession kind of coming in and saying, Oh, this is what this community needs, instead of really coming from a deep felt understanding of that.
Absolutely. And I think you're also speaking to like, the recognition of the wisdom of communities already. And that sometimes, that's not how we're trained, right, is to recognize the wisdom and the power that resides in communities, the healing rituals and practices that folks already have, and how do we, like really support people in exploring them, and then integrating them into our work?
Yeah, and you know, one thing, I went to the, I can't remember which Museum, it was a museum up in Denver, right. And I was looking and going through the use room, and every, you know, every place has a placard, right, that talks about, like, where this comes from, and we were in talking about like, in digit, like, we were in American indigenous peoples room, right? I unfortunately, can't remember which community it was. But they were talking about these words. And talking about dualism, talking about the here and now talking about connection with each other and talking about all of these words and phrases and themes that we see in counseling, right, this existed before we put it in books, right? These concepts were already here, our communities like, I like what you said, right? Like our communities are ready to address that. And sometimes we like to think that they do, or that we invented these things like as counselors and using the brand or we am part of a system, right? And so like that we invented these things, and that we're the ones that, like, have this knowledge where really we're borrowing and in some cases, taking knowledge that was already there and claiming it, right and so some Yeah, I love that you brought that up, because it's really working with the wisdom that is already there in the room.
Absolutely, and so beautifully said, as well working with the wisdom that's in the room, which kind of takes me to this next question a lot of the work that you've done in professional settings, I don't know you've got a few things going on now. And it's going to kind of shift to research a little bit, and then we'll shift back more into the the clinical side, but a lot of your work together now also centers queer women of color, women spelled with an X W. M. xn. Could you explain to listeners a little bit about that spelling and the intention behind that spelling?
Absolutely. This was a long conversation, I remember that we started back in one 818. Around the term women traditionally spelled with an E. And then how, in some communities, particularly communities of women that identified as women that love women are lesbian circles, they'd started taking out the E and replacing it with the y. So women spelled with a y to really like highlight feminist approaches to really call to attention, issues that impacted women with the why. However, it was an exclusionary practice. So it did not include a trans women, non binary folks, other trans folks that maybe were more feminine presenting. So in doing the research, and really diving deeply into the history of women with a wine, when we were first starting this work, we decided we didn't want to use women with a y. So we were like, well, what is the alternative to not just filling women with an E. So we've noticed more and more a smaller group of folks using women with an X sometimes pronounced women's. And this is to really challenge sexism and cisgender ism, by replacing the E with an x to really highlight that gender and sex are constructs in different ways. And that we're socialized to really behave in certain ways based on our sex assigned at birth. So that's the reason why we're using women's, there's also I think it's important to honor and acknowledge that there's also some debates around the term of the US Women's as well, and what it means and is it really inclusive and inclusive for who, and when. And we're open right to those discussions and conversations. I think one of the beautiful things that I've learned as a queer person is that our language is always evolving, that we have this beautiful capacity for, like linguistical determination, and to really practice language, justice and freedom and what it means. So that's the term we're using for now, it may change and grow and shift as we change and grow. But I'm hoping that that's the beginning place for us to continue this discussion.
Yeah, and I know that for me, and I and, and the team really, there wasn't just as to when we were looking at this first research project, right, that we were both part of. discussion was part of our every day, right? Like, we're constantly talking about everything and processing our own things. And one thing that came up for me, as we were discussing this particular word to was just highlighting how just institutionalized everything, white supremacy and patriarchy like all of those also are infused within our own communities, right, like it's not outside of our are already marginalized or racialized communities, right. Like we, we drink sometimes the poison, right, and, and it impacts us too. And so really looking at that we can potentially also be very exclusionary, or is that a word that's word like, exclusive like we within our own communities, and that this was a challenge to that, like this was challenging role highlighting and recognizing that it also is a challenge to
on it sounds like within that challenge, really being aware of the waste different intersections impact different folks, and how nuanced that intersectionality is. I think sometimes we talk about intersectionality as a kind of an end all be all, that we can talk about the intersection of gender, or sexuality and race, and that that encompasses everything. And it absolutely doesn't. Because there's so many intersections within intersections, and how much we also have a have a true lived experience of like you said, Monica, drinking the poison of how do you not internalize messages that you're getting? On a day to day, hour to hour, sometimes even minute to minute basis? Which kind of leads into this next question of some of the what are some of the primary barriers for queer women of color seeking and receiving counseling services? I know also, as I say that, that's a very large population. And feel free to kind of break that down a little bit more. And what what are some of those barriers?
Can I just like, interject a little bit? As I'm sitting here, and like talking, and I recognize that I use the word challenge right. Now that I'm looking at it, it just feels like that's not necessarily the word. Right. For me. I think it's like resisting. I think resistance is more of the word that I was wanting to convey. Because I don't know. For me, it's still figuring out like, what the difference there, but that resistance feels more criminal to me. And so yeah, I just wanted to throw that, throw that in there that I think for me, it's the more accurate term was like resistance.
Yeah, so So going back to that, that question that you asked Mickey right, um, I think that this for me, is is a two parter. Right? I think for me, it's it's a two part question. Because, for me, it's like the macro, like what's happening in our environment? And being aware of those things? And then what is happening in my counseling room, and then outside? Right. I'm from Texas, right? I'm practicing currently in Texas. And right now, Texas is incredibly hostile towards LGBT folks, particularly trans youth. Right now. They have introduced a lot of anti affirmative gender affirming care, and have recently passed some legislation that strips a lot of these rights for young, either children or young trends of use, right. About a year ago, think it was a year ago, our governor interpreted our child abuse laws to include to an end call to action, licensed professionals, whether it be nurses, doctors, the community to call our Child Protective Services against parents of trans youth that were supportive. Right. And so we have here, this break and breach of trust within us as counselors and the LGBT trans community, right? Where now, folks are going to be afraid to come into this room. So it requires a tremendous amount of bravery to just make that call and vulnerability to just make that call. And then when they finally get in, like, who's to say that that counselor is going to be able to hold space to recognize, to broach to bring, bring these concerns, these opportunities for conversation and dialogue, to centralize their identities within within that relationship? Right. And so, I say this, because it's it's such an unfortunate piece in a lot of states, in particularly here in Texas, that, that we're, we're struggling with that breakup trust, right. It's, you know, I think I can't remember if there was almost like 500 pieces of our anti LGBT legislation that was introduced this year, right. And so we're looking at that. I know for myself, it's a challenge because I have to balance watching the news. And, you know, again, going back to like ingesting that poison, right and like being okay, and then also regulating myself and my own health because I get scared most of the time when I watch, but then also being there for my community, right, I need to be educated about these things in order for, for me to be able to bring them into session, you know, I know before, like, I had a client, who identified as a queer woman of color, and I, I'm depressed, and I don't know why. And I'm like, can I? Can I name a few things? Right? Can I like kind of bring it in? This is really heavy what's going on here? And like, in our legislation, right, like this is they're saying that you are not okay. Right? Like that you are not valid, that they're stripping rights. Like, I'm wondering if that's something that's going on here. Right. And then in that conversation in that dialogue, it was a big part, right of just like, naming and being able to talk about what's happening in our bigger and our bigger picture outside of the counseling. So I think for me, it's that right, like, it's, it's what is happening outside that is creating barriers and creating extra loads for our communities, but then also what's happening in our counseling room? Are we already naming it? Are we not naming it? Is it is, are we micro aggressing on our clients by by not naming it right, and I wouldn't even call it a microaggression like, I will call this just like playing not okay, as a counselor, like not bringing in those pieces, like an aggression, right, like we are creating or maybe even re traumatizing, which for me goes beyond the microaggression. Right. Um, so I think I think that that's for me, they're kind of like I sit with it.
You mentioned to this, this piece of legislation. And I'm thinking, you know, with with my current location of Tennessee, and the passage of the bill in 2016, that allowed counselors to discriminate and not receive any kind of sanctions against their license, even though it's directly against our ethical code, right. Other states have now passed similar laws. And some of the states that are either attempting to pass or that have passed, these laws actually kind of go a bit, even beyond what the Tennessee law said. So that adds, as you're talking about this, mistrust, another additional piece of mistrust of now I'm not only going to potentially receive subpar care, but I'm not going to receive care, I'm going to be actively denied seeking care, which adds a whole nother layer to this experience. And when we talk about even goodness broaching and how critical that is, that there's part of me as you were talking about the the experience of your client and the experience of that depression and feeling depressed, and being depressed, like not just an experience of depression, but actively being depressed by society. How much of that is normalized of just this is the experience that I have, and how important it is to name that I really appreciate you. You're talking about the the importance of naming, Matt, for our clients as well.
I completely agree. I think there's so many barriers, right? And you're both highlighting these institutional, legal barriers that are increasing fear for queer folks, for LGBTQ folks in general, to seek care. And then once folks seek care, there's a lot of additional barriers as well. So finding the right provider, which is a money guy was really talking about finding someone who's really going to be able to like hold all of queer women of color, all of their identities to be able to explore the nuances of their experiences of oppression of discrimination, of power, and to be able to, like honor their healing in different ways. And beyond just like counseling like truly like liberation and radical healing practices. I think about insurance, right, and insurance coverage and depending on whether or not somebody has insurance, what they may have access to, I think about the long list of providers who had say Do say they are LGBTQ affirming, and have that on their websites, then they have a longer list of folks waiting to get in for a session. So I think about right this huge mistrust that is founded, and then increase those barriers based on location, right? Like the experience of folks in California is very different. Looking for providers and folks who are in Texas or Tennessee at this moment, or Florida, the thinking then about insurance and difference insurance providers that may or may not cover, thinking about whether or not the therapists themselves are paneled with different insurances. Because we know, therapists also are having challenges with payment. So when I think about barriers for queer women of color, I think about all of those pieces. And then I also think about the barriers that providers who identify as queer and trans therapists of color also experience, particularly folks who are now residing in states like Texas, and Tennessee, and Florida. What are some of their fears around continuing to provide and advertise gender and queer affirming services, our insurance panels still willing to take them on? And reimburse them for this type of work? So there's so many pieces I think that go into this question that we really do need to look at from a micro lens, and then a microbe.
Speaking of those intersections and the overlap of experience, how do you navigate? What are some of the ways you've tried both maybe successfully and unsuccessfully at times to navigate those shared experiences? I know you, Monica, you spoke a little bit about how do I? How do I navigate watching the news to be informed versus now I'm just doing scrolling? Or I'm just in this spiral of just continuing to hit get hit with these negative messages? How do you navigate that, and really foster, we've talked a bit, you've both talked a bit about resistance and liberation. And those seem to be now becoming more and more buzz wordy, without a lot of necessarily substance and depth to them. So speak a little bit, if you would on on resistance and liberation and how you conceptualize it and apply it to your work in practice.
By being
resistance, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot. Both as a counselor, educator and as a counselor that, you know, I reside in California, but all of my clients are in Texas, because I'm not licensed here. And, for me, this resistance piece is tied to liberation. To me, they're not separate. So for me, resistance is an embodied process of awareness of things, particularly like our social ills in society, and feeling that internal tension within myself, and actively making a choice to push against them. And that it can change right day to day depending on what's happening. But I think a very concrete example, of resistance for me, as like a counselor, educator recently has been to create spaces within my institution, where students and faculty can come together and talk about all of the anti LGBTQ bills, how they're impacting us, and how do we continue to practice joy and connection in the midst of the pain and the fear that is experienced. So that's one way of resisting is like leaning into community and finding ways of like healing and practicing joy, which to me then allows us to find more like strength and power to then continue pushing back and seeking that liberation right to then go out and write letters to legislators and go out and demand justice when things are happening in our communities. And it allows us to feel grounded in who we are, even if the messages that we're receiving are contrary even if those messages right are really true. Trying to make us deeply question right who we are, and sometimes make us want to go into hiding, right? I think I felt that experience at a different point in my life, especially living in places like Texas or Ohio. But when I'm able to really lean into community and explore my fear, and be held in that fear, and then find ways to move through that fear in community and in love, that I'm able to then move through it differently, and continue pushing and pushing. I think our counseling spaces are beautiful spaces of resistance. And they can be if we, as counselors really hold our clients in those moments of deep pain, while bringing in right, these societal pieces that are impacting their experience, so that they don't internalize that this is a them problem, but so that they can really start looking and exploring that this is actually fear and depression are adaptive responses to things that are wrong in our society. And that that is the issue, not their response to it. But the larger societal context.
Yeah, absolutely. Like I agree. And I think that that's part of the work that I do with my clients of just like, is, is this you? Or is this outside of you? Right? Or is it a little bit of both? Right, like, we all carry our traumas that also that I don't want to say have nothing to do, because they feel like it's all intersectional. But that, you know, are more like family of origin things, but that it impacts and it compounds with everything that's going on in our society, right? And so, so absolutely, and I think the leaning into community, right? As somebody who has my own trauma of like, you know, maybe some family of origin stuff that has learned to only rely on myself, right? Learning to rely on Unity has been such a healing experience, it has been a long journey for me, that now I'm here as a clinician, because if I, if I'm not in a good space, I'm not how am I going to be able to be present, and care and hold space? For the clients? Right, and groups, you know, multiple people a day, right. And, and I think one of the beautiful things that I learned in this, in this resistance, and in this challenge, right, is that we all react differently. And that because we're all different. Being in a team is so helpful. So I'm gonna use us as an example, right? I know, when things have happened previously, we were still students, there were a lot of stuff that was going on in technical, I get mad immediately, right. And so my feelings are always of anger at first. And so I'm going off and doing so I'm going off and writing those letters I'm going off and, and, you know, collaborating and putting pieces into action are unnecessary. Okay, for me to to mention, you are very much at the beginning of like feeling, right, and like really processing what's going on for you first, experiencing and holding space for yourself, right? Well in community, that then when I'm tired, and my feelings come up, you tap in and I tap out. Right? And so that's one of the beautiful things that I discovered about like, I don't have to hold this for mice, I have my community that when I'm exhausted, I can just tap out and somebody is going to tap in. Right, and, and just trusting that community that it's going to it's going to be there. Right. And so I think that for me, that was one of the things that I learned as I'm navigating the system, as I'm navigating being a human with all of my identities, being an educator and being a counselor, right being a supervisor, that those have been just some of the pieces that I've had to learn that it's not, I didn't create this problem, so I don't have to fix it, right? I can put my piece of it but it doesn't mean that I have to, I have to exhaust myself to the bone like I need to be okay. And I can rely on my community to come in when I'm not okay. So I think that that, for me was something that I had to learn.
There was a movement. I can't remember exactly when it was that I really heard of it started but rest for resistance, if you'll remember that and that the act of rest is a is a part of resistance because that's something If the system doesn't want to happen, the system wants burnout, the system wants a crash and burn. So then you can't fight back or there's not enough of a movement to fight back. And I'm also hearing a lot of parallel process for you and your clients, of navigating your own emotions, your own experience, both at a similar time and a different space, but also sometimes in the same time and space with your clients, which I think for, for counselors that have philosophical sense, that makes sense to me. And I think it makes sense to a lot of counselors, but I think our educational system, at least, when I was initially coming up as a counselor in training, still kind of having this blank slate idea. So I'm curious if either one of you, excuse me have any advice or any, any ideas on this breaking down, that very patriarchal hetero sexist white supremacist idea of the counselor, as the end all be all are disconnected and how to really engage and be intentional emotionally, with your clients process, especially as it pertains to things that are impacting both of you, or all of you at the same time.
So, so a lot, some of my background, right is in disaster relief work. And so one of the things that we talk about, especially when we're going through a disaster trauma, is that there's a lot more self disclosure, right? Like we, especially when we're talking about shared trauma, or collective trauma. And there's a lot, there's just a lot more self disclosure, that happens, inevitably, like I think about the pandemic, which is like a shared traumatic experience. And the difference between shared trauma and collective trauma is that the shared trauma experience really looks at the counselor and the client relationship of going through this same experience of trauma, for example, a pandemic a, a disaster, where the where the counselor is from that community, right? Typically, it's talking about more of a disaster, but some of the literature right now is going into more of shootings, Black Lives Matter, police, police violence for a black community. So other you're starting to see more literature going into those spaces. And so for me, it goes back to like my identity, and, you know, for for some of my clients, not all I do self disclose my queer identity, right? Depending if, if there is that, that process, right, like, if it's relevant, if it's, you know, you always have to figure out like, is this going to be healthy? Is this gonna be therapeutic or not? Right? So not all my clients, I self disclose some of them I do. And then now we're talking about the client, knowing and understanding that these are also impacting me, right? So we get to talk about that, we get to talk about our mutual experience in this that really talks and speaks to a relational depth that is so different from what we are taught, like we're taught to not disclose these things, right, we're taught to like, really put our own process out. But the relational and therapeutic intimacy that I've been able to reach with clients that after I've disclosed some of my identities, is, it's so different than when I don't write. Again, I will always say, supervision is key, and having colleagues that you can consult with is always going to be very helpful in those situations. But when we are dealing with shared trauma, the literature out there says that if you don't disclose, if you pretend that everything is okay, you're actually creating a relational rupture. And you're, you're, you're like, You're fine, you're okay, but then why am I struggling as a planet? Right? There must be something wrong with me is, she's fine. She's okay. And I'm not right. And so it really helps reinforce like, No, this is actually systemic. This goes beyond me and you and like, let's talk about policies, that this is impact. act in the US in this room in this space and create healing, right? Like counselor counseling doesn't have to be a one way street. It's like, I always tell my clients, you are impacting me, I'm being impacted by every person that I meet. And so that is what I feel like, for me, it's like self disclosure becomes different. It's different. I do disclose a little bit more, when I know that we are experiencing this shared or collective trauma together. So yeah, I think that that, for me, is how that resistance to what I what I was taught in these counseling programs and these educational programs that, you know, I'm finding is different for different people.
In thinking right about the communities we're talking about, we're talking about queer communities of color, right? That having somebody a counsellor, who looks like them, who has some shared identities that can share and normalize, right? Like, what is happening is painful, it is terrifying. And in and of itself, be supportive, right? Like that, in and of itself, creates moments for deeper connection, and resonance. When I think about when I do this work with clients, right? I am always thinking about my clients in Texas, their experience is a little bit different, because now based oversight there, I don't, but when these bills and things come out, I text them. And you may be like, Wait, that's a boundary crossing, but is it is it I'm creating an invitation for my clients to process and for me to share, like, I am thinking about you, you matter in this moment. And it is okay, if you need time and space to talk, I'm here. And those moments are so important. It really communicates like I see you, I'm with you, and what you're going through, you don't have to go through alone. And a being when we're really trying to do this differently, a cause for us to do this work from a heart centered space. Like yes, I know my ethics and my guidelines. I'm not going to be on the phone with my clients at 3am processing. But I will set some time aside to process I will for some of my work with clients I do pro bono work right where we have acuity, Pog groups where we come in and we're talking about this stuff together. I also think it's extremely important to start with ourselves and really exploring, like, who am I as a clinician? What have I been taught that is helpful? And maybe what are some things that I was taught that I need to unlearn? Right like these. I know for me, one of them was like I am like impartial, right, I'm neutral. And I no longer believe that's true, being at one point, right. And my training very early on, I was I guess have to be like super neutral and like boundaries. And to me that just felt so like rigid, and robotic, that it didn't allow for space for the actual parts of me that are healing to emerge. So I think that's a parallel process with our clients is the ones we're able to release and you know, break out of the mold of what we believe a counter should be, we really find those parts of us that are most healing and that resonate the most with our clients. And then we can help our clients do the same is to break out of these molds out of these templates out of these like relational blueprints that they believe they have to be in so that they can experience themselves and others differently.
So you've mentioned this self exploration of the counselor and figuring out who who am I, as a counselor, as a counselor as part of my identities, along with a myriad of other identities. What do I believe about the world or do I believe about this process? Being aware of what's happening? Being open to not only open to but being able and willing to talk about it with your clients but also with colleagues with supervisees with supervisors, with mentors, building community is something that has has come up quite a bit throughout this conversation and it's something thing I know is going to be sticking with me. And I'm also curious, with all of that being said, Are there any other strategies that are coming to mind for you, in supporting queer woman acts of color, within, within maybe even Beyond Counseling spaces?
I think you know, it brings me a little bit to some of the work I'm doing now with a group of students at university. I mean, at California State University, almost at UNC. That's where I graduated from where I'm working. And for me, I think also looking at spaces where we have an opportunity to do things different. When we're working with communities, I think about research a lot, now as a tenure track faculty member. So at the moment, we're doing this study with queer women of color. And we're really partnering with them as co researchers in this process, to explore what healing looks like for them inside and outside of counseling. And I think that's something we can do, regardless of whether or not we do research is really support folks in exploring what does healing mean for them? And then what practices culturally ancestrally, within community, have they learned that support their healing? And in that way, we're also doing an assessment and an evaluation of, are there places where this person needs more support and finding healing practices and communities, that center healing, that go beyond just talk therapy? I think, you know, sometimes talk therapy is powerful and helpful. But we also have, you know, energetic bodies that need other forms of healing. I think about somatic practices, I think about working with nature, I think about ritual work. And sometimes those are things that as counselors, we have training, and and sometimes we don't. So I think recognizing that there are different forms of healing, and supporting clients and exploring the healing practices that work for them. And then helping them connect with those resources or communities, or healers and practitioners that can support them in those ways.
Yeah, absolutely. And for me, so I recently switched over from one clinic to a different one, mostly because I was limited to online with the baby's neck. And so I, again, like I know what you said about just energetic flow, I was missing that in person connection, I was missing, being able to do art, with clients to be able to have coffee with science. And I say that very intentionally. Because going back to our previous question of how you're supposed to sit, when and what we're supposed to wear at the counselor, what are you supposed to do and not do with in session? The open stance, right? I'm like, No, I'm drinking coffee, we have coffee dates, or tea dates, if they prefer tea. Right, I do a lot of plant medicine. Right. So infusing, like our plant partners into the therapeutic experience. And so that might mean, I have some months ending, yeah, I have some nettles, I have some ginger in the back. And, and clients get to intuitively see who they need in that moment. And, and drink their, their magic, right, like their healing properties. And we stop, and we talk about what that feels like and what that looks like for them. What is that smell? What are we doing? We're grounding. Right? But it's a different kind of grounding. We're doing it together in like, I'm grounding with them. We're co regulating, right? A lot of the times we think co regulation is just for children. No, like we're co regulating together. Right? Um, so I really love that you brought up these practices that you know, you kind of have to figure out on your own right? Because they're not part of part of our experience. Another thing for me our learning experience and in our programs, right, is that I look at my the the website for the clinic that I'm currently working and we Amen. One of the first bullet points is that we talk about white supremacy. We talk about patriarchy, we talk about working with LGBT communities to talk about marginalization, we talk about decolonization. And to your point, Nikki about what do these words actually mean? Right? So, in our clinic, we have weekly scheduled meetings with every practitioner in that space. And we talk about what does this word mean to you? Right, like, so that it's not baseless, so that we are actually doing that work. Right. So like, again, these are, these are phrases that everybody wants to use now, right? But what does decolonization of mental health actually look like? What do you mean, when you say you want to decolonize? What are you decolonizing? First, right, like, let's just start there. Like, what's the problem? And what are you trying to decolonize? Right? What does liberation mean to you? So we're having these these discussions, so that we know, right, like, we're not just copycatting words, because they sound cool, right? Or it sounds like something that we're supposed to be doing over we're, we're working, we're actively working on that. And then we bring that in the room. Right, we bring that in the room with our clients. What does this mean to you? What does this not mean to us drinking coffee is become like the colonial colonial work, right? It's like, it's going against the practices that they told us that we're not supposed to be doing it. Right, we're in relationship in a different way. It's, you know, it's more on the lighter for me, right. Like, there's deeper work that we can be doing, but it is that resistance. Right. And so I think I am that the thing, right, like, when we talk about, like, what is what are some strategies that can help? Like, it's, it's me, right? It's, it's cool. I like that. You said, It's me, it's cool. I bring into that room. What does my what is the space that I curated in this room look like? Right? Um, to be honest, there's not a lot of counseling books in there. Right? There's watercolor books in there there is what is the title that I just bought a book of? It's like, farming while black. Right? And so like growing foods that like, from black farmers, right? It's like, what are these other experiences that make us us that are outside just mental health, that we can also look at in this space, like, but every piece of my room is intentional, as well. And so I think that for me, it's those little things that make up a big thing. Right? It's those little things that create safety and safety is not, it's not it's not just the hip word, either. Right? It's, it's like, what does it actually mean to feel safe here with me in this space? And that is, that is also recognizing that some days, they may feel safer than others. It's on a spectrum. It's not that you are not, it's like, Am I just misgendered you file? Like, I, you know, and how do I make a repair? How do I recognize it? How do I make a repair there? Right, because I'm not perfect. And those things are going to happen sometimes, or while I just said something pretty judgmental. Okay, let's talk about that. Right. How did I create pain right now? Because I did I create a pain for you, I recreated something that you are experiencing outside of the space. And so yeah, so I think that, that for me, it's really like the, the meat, right, like, what am I what am I bringing in, that does create that difference? And that like that, I guess, the port
it really sounds like a big piece of this as humanity and being human. That that that's what's really standing out in this and how disconnected a lot of our education has been from the humanity of, of the counselor. Being in the room, and I also really loved what you said about redefining or not necessarily redefining, but defining for self and community what liberation of resistance mean, rather than having one definition because it also is something that resistance today may look different than resistance tomorrow or next week or than it did yesterday. So with that kind of beings Edie, as we kind of wrap up this podcast, and again, thank you both so much for for being here with me today and sharing your yourselves is what works? Or what avenues would you recommend for clinicians or students or educators to be learning more? Because we know academia moves pretty slow. So they're not necessarily in those academic spaces. Some of them may be. But where are some of the places you're learning this? Were some of the places you're accessing this? And what would you recommend for other folks that want to learn more and access more.
And before I think we go there, I also want to thank you, Mickey, for inviting us again, and engaging in this dialogue, right, I see this more as an ongoing dialogue, where we all get to learn and experience one another. I think this peace around like at the core that this work is around, showing our humanity, I think it's really like, We are the instruments and the tools that are most effective in this work. So it's really around like connecting deeply with ourselves. And our hearts be beyond words, right, like being able to really deeply do this work. So some of the works, you know, that I think have really inspired me and have really supported me, in this journey, our Sister Outsider. It's a book by Audrey Lorde. And that has been an instrumental book in my life. And I also follow rest for resistance, which is a movement of cutie puck folks around mental health and wrestling for resistance. And I'll make sure that you have link the link to their website as well. National queer and trans therapists of color does some great work around practitioner development, Healing Justice resources for Cutie Park. They also have a mental health fund that opens up every year around March and it goes through the entire month. And this is a mental health fund for queer and trans black, indigenous and people of color that allows and affords folks up to eight sessions with a psychotherapist and people can request up to $100 per session. So for folks that maybe have a really difficult time, with funding, it can at least give them those eight initial sessions. They also have a directory of queer and trans therapists of color for clients. But then as a therapist, you can join that directory. Also the Society for sexual affectional, intersex and gender expansive identities as monthly webinars, they also have a conference this year, the conference will be virtual. And we'll focus a little bit more on expanding our awareness of how do we support queer folks LGBTQIA plus folks, globally, not just here in the United States. Sage is also working on developing a training that will help people have a better understanding of how to support LGBTQIA folks across different communities. So those are some that I have been really familiar with over the last few months. There's also a book by Dr. Jennifer Milan, who does a lot of work around decolonizing therapy. And the book is now available for pre order is called decolonizing. Therapy, oppression, historical trauma and politicizing your practice, which based on the work she already does, I think it's going to be a pivotal work in addition to a lot of the stuff she already has. So I would encourage folks also follow her on social media.
Yeah, and so I was actually just having this conversation and I liked that segue on social media, right because I was just talking to Mickey about where I get a lot of my information is media, right like outside of the the wonderful resources that Anna just gave. You know, a Sister Outsider, I love that book to Austin, la frontera. Borderlands by Goya's and dua amazing book written by, you know, I don't want to miss label but I know they were clear. And I don't know if it's Latina or Hispanic. I'm not sure what identity they use, but I'm definitely from a Mexican American background. And that one for me was I like reading it in my college courses like that one for me was really, really important. And recognizing that a lot of this, this information for me comes outside of one my training, right? Like I'm going out outside of sometimes conferences, outside of main conferences like flagship tech conferences. You know, they're very, they're very specific, smaller ones that are geared more towards the community, right. And then also social media, I get, and I say this with a caveat, right? Because you have to kind of dig through who's performative who's not who's really about the cause, but tick tock, you know, Instagram, I have found some really great trainings from folks that are really they're turning into more of counselors working through social media networks, like, obviously, not practicing, but live training, and using those platforms as ways to connect with, with other therapists. And so I, you know, use that quite a bit. Like, as I'm scrolling, I'm looking at, like, my algorithms right now are all about like, counselors and figuring out like, different ways of practicing and trainings. And, and for me, that's where, you know, outside of the things that I never mentioned, like, that's the home game, also a lot of my information. And up to, like, more up to date, right information, again, like you mentioned, that sometimes academia moves very slowly. And so by the time that it catches up, we're already under a different term, or a different word, or a different evolvement of something, right? And so, really, that's where I'm learning a lot of the newer things that are coming up from the communities themselves. And that's the cool thing, right? Like, it's not as we're not having to cite our sources, right, like, this is coming. And this being centralized, it's coming from the community, right, it's coming from the voice. For a lot of a lot of places, I'm not saying all places, but a lot of those places are coming from the source, right from the communities themselves. And so I think that that is something that I've started to look at, too, is is what what is out there outside of academic settings, because for a lot of people, they that's not attainable, like who's gonna go in and research an article when you have to pay for a publication, right? Not very many people, right. And so, so yeah, so I think that that, for me has been really important. Just like looking at podcasts, like looking at just like things that are going to be more attainable and reachable for folks.
Excellent. Thank you both so much for for your expertise, your experience, just your being and being here today. Again, thank you for joining us on the thoughtful counselor podcast, and we look forward to more future episodes.
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