Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.
So welcome to the good community, we're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, what's happening?
I'll tell you what's happening, you know, how we talk about like the justice warriors of this world, and how we need to uplift them, we need to equip them. We talked last year in one of our trends, about how we want each of you to embrace being a change agent, we need to go beyond thought leadership. And we have somebody in the house today that is doing all of that and has made a career out of it. So I am so honored to introduce Liza Mueller, she is the vice president of knowledge and thought leadership at Echoing Green. And if you don't know Echoing Green, you need to go immediately and check out this incredible organization that is doing so much on the intersection of social justice and making sure that there is equal opportunity for every human being in this world. And so today we're going to talk about how success is really measured in the social sector. But I gotta introduce you to Liza because her background is fascinating. Liza is just dedicated to ensuring that Echoing Green is a learning organization. As head of knowledge and thought leadership. She supports Echoing Green's mission to advance global equity and sustainability by increasing its impact potential and influence influencing the fields of social innovation and philanthropy. Why? Because they want to move significant resources and shift power to proximate leaders in their communities. We are very passionate about this. And Liza is bringing in nearly two decades of experience in program evaluation, systems design, implementation, and best of all research, they got data to back up all of this movement. And I just love that she believes that transformational social change can happen only when deep trust, respect and community voices are centered across the board from sharing resources to program design, implementation, research and thought leadership. So I have to lift this one thing Liza because I thought was really interesting in your bio that in 2020, Echoing Green and the Bridgespan Group, published this incredible report on racial equity and philanthropy that were disparities in funding for leaders of color leave impact on the table and this is a product of nearly nine years of patient data collection and research by Liza and the team and the program staff. And so her team also produces these annual reports on trends in the social entrepreneurship field and contributes to research across the sector. We are going to be keeping our eyes on that we will be passing that to you in the future. She holds a degree in Biology from Hendricks College, shout out to you all in Arkansas, and she was awarded a Thomas J. Watson fellowship which really enabled her to travel the world, surveying the impacts of coastal development on sea turtle populations. If you are like me, and you're hearing all of these things about Liza you're thinking we'll align on all the big things down to the turtles. Liza, thank you for being here. Welcome to the We Are For Good Podcast. We are so excited to learn from you.
Thank you so much for having me here. I'm a fan of the podcast and I love you know just connecting with you all before we got started so I'm excited for the conversation.
Well, I think this is gonna go wide and deep and I'm really excited about it and before we dive into these really heavy topics that we need to have more conversation around more awareness around and frankly with this community we want more activation around we got to get to know you first. So like take us back like we want to know about little Liza like tell us about her heart for justice. Tell us what really made you fall into this work.
Yeah, I mean fall into is a is an accurate statement.
All of us. Every one of us.
Little Liza was very passionate about the environment. I started my first you would say my first you know, social enterprise slash change initiative when I was seven and I started a neighborhood recycling clubs. I took my red wagon around to all my neighbor's houses and collected all their recyclables and then my dad would drive me to the recycling center and that was instead of an allowance so this was back in the day when you would get paid for recycling paper and aluminum and cardboard and all of those things and so
Way to go Liza's dad.
I got to keep the money with a with a small subsidy going towards the gas fund.
Entrepreneur building right there.
And but I didn't see it that way at all. I thought I wanted to be a scientist for a while I thought I wanted to be a doctor. I, you know, started college pre med, but at a liberal arts institution who was the, you know, the institution was really dedicated on unto the whole person, which is the Hendrix College motto. And I don't think I realized how important that was until much later in my career, the fact that a liberal arts education forces you to be exposed to a lot of different ways of thinking about the world, a lot of different ways of solving problems using data, talking to people collaborating with others. And I think that that really shaped me in many ways. To be the kind of social sector leader I am today, that is, you know, forced to be hyper collaborative across sectors, across departments, across functions. So I have spent the last 15 years working not just for Echoing Green, but also other leaders in the nonprofit space and the storytelling space. And the through line of my whole career is that I help leaders, artists, visionaries, take what can be an overwhelming and massive amount of information, and turn it into impactful stories that can make others think differently about the world and in some ways, get to a place where maybe they're sharing your values.
I love the way you just tee that up. I don't know that I've ever been so excited for this conversation that's coming. I think, you know, when we talk about data, I think it's easy for people to think that that's the opposite of storytelling, but you somebody that's so like, heartwired, to some of these bigger issues, but is using the power of data and storytelling to like change hearts and minds like this is fire. And this is where we need to lean into. And so I want to do a little bit of tone setting because you're launched echoing greens knowledge function to creatively leverage data and insights to grow impact. But tell us a little bit about how important transformative data and research has been for your organization, like, what do we think can be unlocked for organizations when they lean into that same strategy?
I think I'll start by saying earlier in my career, I thought data was everything. I wanted to prove everything I wanted all of the receipts, if you couldn't measure, it didn't matter. And I think that working in the social enterprise and social innovation space where there's a lot of intentionality around doing the work different, which means and this is very obvious to me now. But then it wasn't that you should be measuring it different, you should be defining success differently. Even if you're solving the same problem as a, you know, more traditional solution or a well known solution, you need to be thinking differently, all around 360 degrees. And so it really shifted my working in this space really shifted my thinking and the center of gravity, my center of gravity on where and how data gets used. And then beyond that, working in an organization that deeply understands the barriers that leaders of color face and advancing solutions, and especially solutions that are informed by and driven by the communities closest to the issues has shifted that thinking in me even further. And so what I have learned in the last 14 years of working in Echoing Green, is that, yes, data can be but maybe shouldn't be everything that I think organizations have a responsibility for their own data and measurement. But that should not be at the expense of the communities you're serving and the communities you're partnering with. And you should be honoring the way that they want to see change work in their communities, because they are where the buck should stop. And so at Echoing Green building the knowledge function was it the beginning, it was we were a scrappy organization that had a lot of disparate sort of measurement functions that needed to kind of be centralized that needed to be revised or rethought or put into Salesforce? My first job at Echoing Green was to fix Salesforce. So you know, that's, this is where we've come, but really, it was about starting to think about, and that's where that nine years of patient data collection started, it was starting to think about how do we get to a place where we're telling a really authentic story and the true story of not only what we're doing but what the social entrepreneurs and innovators that we support are doing.
I mean, it's so heartening to hear a researcher and a statistician and somebody who's looking at this all the time, put that little asterix on the research and say, remember to look inside your own organization, we say this every single time one of the big reports come out whether it's the Edelman Trust Barometer or the Giving USA trends, it's like that matters much less than what your data is telling you and what in what you're saying, even is what your people are telling you. So I want to talk a little bit just about the weight of power. And I think that you all have kind of cracked the code a little bit on the role that metrics and evaluation have at that intersection of social justice. So like to talk a little bit about Echoing Green MPH is center for culturally responsive engagement. If you anybody in the audience wants to check that out that ccre. And you guys recently published this, the weight of power, the role of Metrics and Evaluation, at the intersection of social justice, like give us some background and illuminate what this report found, what it explores, and what are the takeaways that heartwired changemakers need to take away from this and implement in their own organizations or thought leadership.
Thank you. There's a lot in that question.
That was a lot.
Very and what's the report so I'll start at the beginning. So for the last 35 years, Echoing Green has been one of the top talent spotters in the social innovation and social enterprise space. We find the best proximate leaders in the world at the very early stages. And we support them with capital capacity and community to drive proximately led solutions around the world to some of the world's biggest problems. We you know, I've been here for the last 14 years, I worked for the incredible Cheryl Dorsey who is the president of our organization, and have learned so much from her and her leadership and the way that she is dogged about the kinds of leaders that we support. Once we the main program, we run as a fellowship program, and our fellows our fellows for life. The community is now almost 1000 fellows that we've supported all time. It includes folks, you know, well, like Michelle Obama, who was awarded the fellowship when she was on the founding team of Public Allies, to leaders like Dr. Raj Panjabi, who was key to ending the Ebola crisis in Liberia. And, and you know, just an amazing cadre of fellows that we select each and every year, so you don't know them yet, but you will. And what we did when we thought about, you know, exploring, publishing something around data and metrics is that we looked for just the right partner. And we just spent quite a bit of time looking for that partner. And when we talk to MPHI's, centerfold culturally responsive engagement, for the first time, it felt like, you know, we didn't need to look anymore. It is a group of really incredible woman, women, all of whom have backgrounds in the evaluation space. But all of whom also are deeply aware of and dedicated to evaluation being better, our sector can do better. Our evaluators can do better, our nonprofits can do better, our funders can do better in the way that they use, evaluate Metrics and Evaluation. And so all throughout the process, we never had to debate whether or not we were going to sort of shine a light on some of the places where we can do better. And that was really kind of refreshing in many ways. And made for a really great and fruitful partnership. The main collaborator on the report, contenu Marie, she is such an amazing thinker, and really helped us drive this paper to the point where you see it today. And what it is, is it's an exploration, as the title says, of the role that metrics play, in how leaders of color are engaging in the social sector and the kind of inner workings but the plumbing of the social sector. How does it impact their relationships with funders? How does it impact their ability to access capital and other resources? How does it impact their relationships with their constituents? And so over the course of about a year, year, plus, we looked at 65, existing articles, white papers, etc. On this topic, we conducted 22 interviews and collected over 400 survey responses from nonprofit leaders, social innovation, social innovators and funders. And where that led us was to four key research questions. Who has the power to define mission, vision and metrics? What metrics are collected and how are they used? What effect do metrics have on BIPOC leaders? And how can we create more equitable funding streams?
Casual.
I was gonna say, I mean, the quality of your questions is gonna determine the quality, you know, of like what follows like, I love the child landed there. So break it down for us, like, what did you find? I mean, in relation to those questions, what are the key findings that we can take away?
Yeah, the the really crux of it is, is that throughout all of our conversations, all of the data we collected, funders have significant power to determine which metrics grant partners use to measure success. And as a result, grant partners and so these are the we specifically do not use the word grantee in the report, we talk about the grant recipients as grant partners, because that is like that tension grant partners collect metrics in service to funders needs, which are not always the same as the needs of communities. And when you think about the power dynamic in the relationship between funders and these organizational leaders, 80% of the grant partners who are part of the communities they support report using metrics for accountability to funders. So that's that's a lot, you know, that that is that's to be expected, right. But it's important context to add that 86% of CEOs and 69% of full time foundation staff are white. So there is a racial difference, great racial differential here in the way that these relationships are forming. And that means that there is a very different approach to proximity. So these nonprofit leaders who are often being asked to collect data, or measure success in particular ways that are informed by perhaps a more elite white perspective, when the community being served does not match that demographic, there can be a lot of pressure to expend, you know, extremely valuable and sometimes scarce nonprofit resources on collecting data and measuring things that are not important to where I said the buck stops should stop, which is with the constituents.
This is such an important and empowering conversation, I want to thank you for bringing this here. And if some of these concepts are new to you listener, like I really encourage you to double down and like start learning about what these terms mean, because there is a ripple effect to the what can happen when we bring more voices to the table like John, I'm thinking of Tulaine Montgomery, over at New Profit who came in and talk to us about proximate leadership, I'm thinking about Mia Henry, who came in from Freedom Lifted, and in this quote that sticking out to me, is oppression thrives by keeping people apart. And I just think we have this wonderful advantage in our work to bring people together to make things, not just the population more diverse, but the conversation needs to be more diverse, the tools need to be more diverse. And this really leads me to this next question I have for you Liza is we just have to see greater equity in this sector, we simply must for survivability for thriveability. And it's going to trickle down to every single one of our communities, if we can like sort of embrace this and empower it. So I just want to like kick that to you, like Teach us how to do this Liza like how can we as a sector, create greater equity and progress in our social impact in our movements and our missions? Give us all the details.
So we actually we asked, we asked both funders and nonprofit leaders, what are the things that you wish were happening in our sector. And we heard four key things over and over and over again. The first is a call to the funding community. And this will not be new or groundbreaking, but to increase the degree to which they provide multi year flexible funding. And an organization will often call it social entrepreneur friendly funding, but really, it's about it being multi year. It's about being flexible. It's about there being real conversations between the grantmakers in the grant partners on how these funds could best be leveraged or used and undoing with any unnecessary restrictions. The second was streamlining reporting processes. Again, not a new call to action, and there has I think, been movement in the sector in some corners. But when you think about the amount of time that a nonprofit leader, particularly a smaller growing nonprofit leader might spend on grant reporting, it's really significant. And again, it takes resources away from the impact first work that you want them to be doing. The third is increasing funding for black indigenous and leaders of color, the recent DEI backlash, especially these last sort of six months, particularly sort of heightened in the media, around the Supreme Court cases, as well as the lawsuit against the Fearless Fund that was upheld in the courts late last year. This is a really big an important topic at the moment, there is a great article in the Chronicle of Philanthropy from just a couple of weeks ago, written by Laura Villarosa from PRI, a call to action to foundations to double down on racial equity focus grantmaking, including grantmaking to leaders of color, it is imperative that we not backslide to pre 2020 numbers on this, basically, it's it's not it's not a question. The last is, and this is a little bit of a divergence is is to literally offer more technical and financial support for data collection and management without imposing necessarily what all of those metrics should be. So this is, again, back to that flexible element, don't increase the restrictions or the grant reporting requirements, and couple that with funding to do those things, have real conversations about what are the things that the nonprofit would like to measure, but maybe doesn't have the capacity to that would best inform them to learn about their work to learn about the impact potential of ideas that they have, and to talk really deeply about the impact that the work is having on the community. Those were what we heard over and over again. And you know, unfortunately, at the end, despite all of us having heard some of these, or all of these before, we heard that grant partners, we heard from Grant partners, that funders are rarely implementing these strategies. And when they do, it's sometimes a pilot or a new initiative that might sort of backslide, rather than something that's committed to long term.
I mean, okay, I need to react to your findings and say, that's what we see, you know, I mean, we see those things play out in the difference of talking to somebody that has had that type of support to actually chase their vision mission faster, versus somebody that is locked in to some kind of restrictive environment, or not even getting access to the capital, like it jives with what we see from our conversations in our community, too. Can I just ask, though, like, what is the response been from the funding community? And like, how can we be involved in that? How can we get active in that?
That's what I'm thinking too.
Because I'm not pointing the finger, that that's the only problem. But I mean, I think this is a really great starting point to say, how can we be better partners in reflecting this feedback back? And how do we be getting get involved in that conversation?
We intentionally wrote this report with funders being the primary audience, but nonprofit leaders and very specifically, social innovators and social entrepreneurs who identify as black, indigenous or a person of color. We wrote it for them as the secondary audience in thinking that one of the most powerful sort of voices in this conversation is the nonprofit leaders in mass, if funders are hearing the same things over and over again, from grant partners, whether it's early in the conversation about funding, or whether it's during a renewal conversation or stewardship conversation much later down the line, if they're hearing these things, again, and again, at all levels of the organization, that is an incredibly powerful voice in mass. So that was our intent. And what we've heard from some of the nonprofit leaders that we've shared it with is that they do see it as a tool to facilitate the conversation. I do think that there's more to be done. So when we think about what would we have done different, or what might we do next, in terms of building on this body of work? I think that one of the things is almost a conversation guide for nonprofit leaders on how to have these kinds of conversations with the folks they're talking to who may not have a lot of power inside their own funding institutions to create change. But who can be allies and partners in finding the best ways to work together that are moving towards achieving everyone's goals? And I like to talk about an example that Echoing Green has, you know, had over and over again. So we're an organization that supports social entrepreneurs, which means that when we receive funding from large institutions, particularly those have that have sophisticated grant making programs and sophisticated systems to manage those programs, we often get funneled into the entrepreneurship category, for example of grantees. And oftentimes there are standard metric sets that are then applied to you and to your grant, as a product of someone clicking that box. And for entrepreneurship programs, one of the most common metrics is jobs created. Well, Echoing Green is not trying to create jobs. That is not something that is one of our goals. It is something that happens as a product of our work, often, many years after we have invested in a very early stage idea for social change. And we applaud those jobs created, we find that to be an amazing metric of success later on down the line. But it's not something that is going to make a grant maker, proud of their investment in us, because those numbers are very low. And because it's not the goal. So we've had to have really careful conversations with those funders to explain the timeline to impact and the kinds of impacts that we're having on the kinds of timescales that they're funding. But those are very nuanced conversations and for organizations that are just getting started or whose fundraising is just starting to develop, and they're starting to get their footing. Those conversations are difficult to have until we do feel like we really need to be talking to both sides and supporting both sides and navigating the way forward.
That is the way I mean it you literally we just said this at the top of the hour, this is your mission to bring collective voices into the conversation. And I'm so glad we talked about activation, because Liza is giving us tips right now one, you can forward this podcast to some of your favorite funders, you can share the report with them with your thoughts. I think, Liza, if you get that script together, 100%, we want it because I do think that people are afraid of using the wrong words, or they're afraid of offending their funder. And that might lead to not getting, you know, funding the following year. And, and I think what we've learned so much about movement building and about storytelling is we have to drop these breadcrumbs over and over and over again. And it can't just be one person, it's got to be from the collective, it's got to be from the front lines. And so we're talking to you who are on the front lines of this. And the beauty of power is when it's shared. And so find a way to share it. And I'm just sitting here thinking, who's doing this really, really well. I mean, we did a funder series last year. And we talked with five very progressive forward thinking, foundations and trust, who are doing this incredible equity work on the front lines. But we want to know from you like who are you seeing that's doing it really well. And if you can speak to any of the outcomes, we'd love to hear that too.
So we point to a number of resources at the end of the report. But one of them is the trust based philanthropy project. The six principles of the trust based philanthropy project are very aligned with what our findings are from this research and this report. And I feel like in some ways this report validates their approach, we're certainly not the only ones validating that. So that's always my first recommendation. There is though, pushback, you know, against the trust based luxury initiatives. And there is even a recent article in the Stanford Social Innovation Review, talking about how trust based philanthropy needs numbers. I think what we're saying in this report is not that numbers are to be abandoned, but that numbers and data should be a much more nuanced conversation between grantmakers, and grant partners. And so that's, that's one of the things that I would say, as, as folks go out there and explore this space. There's, there's room for data, don't worry, there's room for data and metrics in these conversations, but it's data and metrics that are much more respectful of and informed by communities at the end of the day.
And I mean, I think even language is so important and the words we use matter. And I think it's really gonna stick out to me of just your intentional use of grant partners and how that just begins to shift the power dynamics and the conversations I'm gonna start. So you know, honestly, the most evolved foundations and granting organizations that have come through the podcast, use that word partnership, and it's like, I feel like that's the goal. Like how do we just center that right? So just keeping that front and center I think that's something we can all do today. So, I mean, you've had this like amazing career I love thinking about your like recycling program as a kid, and it's like my kids now would hang out with you back then and walk the streets together. But I mean, take us back, because we are so interested in philanthropy and how like shapes us as people. And I wonder if there's a story that sticks out in your mind that you saw philanthropy happen, or moment that you would take us back to.
So they sent me this question in advance. So this is not totally off the cuff.
We like it to be reflective.
I spent probably an inordinate amount of time thinking about it, because there's moments in my life where philanthropy has has changed me or changed my community, or changed my daughter's community in really, really just touching and deeply impactful ways. And so I had a hard time choosing one. But I think the one that I wanted to talk about was so Echoing Green, in early 2020. You mentioned this barriers capital report that we put out in early 2020, Echoing Green was facing some harsh financial realities, we had grown the organization, we were really excited about our programs, and then the people that we were supporting. And philanthropy was not showing up for us, we were having to really fight for every dollar. And when, you know, the pandemic happened, we were sort of primed for change, because we were looking at how we were going to change need to change the way we were working. Fast forward to May, when all of us, and especially our staff, who are so dedicated to advancing equity and justice, were so deeply impacted by the murder of George Floyd, right on the heels of us putting out this paper about how black leaders receive so much less support in the social sector. And so it was a very, very intense time, not just in the world, but Echoing Green in all of this change. And it that summer, I was on the phone with Cheryl Dorsey, our president. And I was trying to, you know, we all you nonprofit leaders out there trying to convince your president to do something that she or he doesn't want to do or doesn't
Totally relate.
I am just like yammering on trying to convince her to do something. I don't even remember what it was. And she goes, why's that? I have to stop you. I'm not listening to you. I was like, I know, I know. It's okay. It's okay. It's Friday. We can talk about it next week. She's like, No, no, and I'm not supposed to tell you. But we got $10 million from MacKenzie Scott. We were part of the first wave, then the first wave. So you might remember in the news, she was she initially she wanted to be completely anonymous, she had made this gigantic philanthropic commitment. But she wanted to be completely anonymous in terms of who had given these organizations money. And so for about six weeks, it was under tight embargo, until that kind of opened up a little bit. And we had struggled so much for so long, in trying to, you know, live our values and drive our programs was so little, and to hear that, at that time, from a black nonprofit leader who had been knocking on doors for her entire life and had so many of them slammed in her face. From funders from partners, you name it, for that to happen, was by far the most impactful, philanthropic moment of my life.
I'm so happy that happened. Jon, aren't you so happy that happened?
I just got chills and yeah, tears in my eyes.
I mean, we had I mean, I'm having deja vu here because we had Ana Marie Argilagos,
I know her, yes.
On season one or two,
We've had conversations about that moment.
Yes, literally, and we're having this conversation that is just so reminiscent of this one where we're talking about that Latinx philanthropies are getting less than 1% of all U.S. philanthropy and how they were in this financial crisis. And then this MacKenzie Scott gift came in. And I just think about the way that this incredible woman I say this every time we mentioned her MacKenzie, we love you please come on the podcast someday. Or I'll just go on a walk with you and talk with you about your heart. Just the way that this woman saw every single one of you in that first wave and uplifted such diverse and empowered organizations who are now in 2024 primed and running, sprinting toward these big visionary ideas and it just literally changed everything. I am overjoyed for you I am so happy that that happened for you all just think oh so worthy and wonderful. So thank you for sharing that story. The MacKenzie Scott stories never get old on this podcast.
Yeah, I knew that you'd heard a lot of them. But I like when when I thought about the question, I was like, that's by far the best one.
It is.
It still surprised me because I didn't know.
Yeah, we had no idea. But I mean, the hustle that you've shown like I just, I just see little Liza like with her crate, like picking up recycling. Now you're out there, not with your crate collecting recycling, but you're sharing this content and this research and this insight with the world. And I just think that it matters so deeply. So thank you for being you. We got to wind up with a one good thing we want to know what your one good thing of advice, maybe a life hack, something that you would leave with the community today. What do you got?
It's not a life hack. It's more of a mantra. And I'm borrowing from an Echoing Green fellow. Her name's Yeshi Milner. She runs an organization called Data for Black Lives. And she says, and I say this to myself all the time. Data is protest, data is accountability, data is action.
Boom.
Boom.
We have to harness it, you have to flip it, you have to flip how the power in data is leveraged. If we're gonna dismantle systemic racism.
You're teasing, like a follow up episode, because that is so so so good. Okay, my friend listeners are gonna want to connect with you with the amazing work report that you put out through Echoing Green. So how Where do you show up online? How can people connect with your mission?
We are at Echoing Green on all platforms. And our website is www.echoinggreen.org.
Okay, please go get access to this report. Please get familiar with this incredible organization. Heck, go follow Liza on LinkedIn, I am. And I can't wait to just follow your thought leadership. Thank you for coming into our house, like spilling the tea, talking real talk, and really getting us activated and pumped up to do this work alongside you're just overjoyed to be your allies.
Well, thank you so much for having me and for inviting these kinds of conversations to be had with folks like me and with your audience. So thank you so much.
Every time Thank you, friend.
Thanks so much for being here, friends, and you probably hear it in our voices. But we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before.
We'd love for you to come join our good community. It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. Sign up today weareforgood.comhello.
And one more thing if you love what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find this community. Thanks so much friends. Can't wait to our next conversation.
