riverside_christine_knox _ sep 19, 2024 001_radical_massage the

6:34PM Sep 19, 2024

Speakers:

Krista Dicks

Keywords:

scar

clients

massage therapists

massage

work

treatment

feel

australia

stones

christine

hands

people

love

techniques

lymphatics

fascia

wonderful

started

touch

therapists

Hello radical massage therapist, and welcome to another episode of the radical massage therapist podcast. I'm your host, Krista, registered massage therapist and clinic owner in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Lucky for you. I am not the radical massage therapist, but you are. And so many of our wonderful guests are radical massage therapists too. You want to learn more about the benefits of a massage career, like freedom, flexibility, financial success and fun, yes, inside and outside of your career. I hope these episodes will inspire you to create a really awesome life around a sustainable massage career. My guest today is Christine Knox. Christine is an internationally trained and renowned practitioner and creator of the only mentored online programs for hands on therapists in remedial hot stones and gentle scar therapy. She trained in the UK and holds the highest qualification available to massage therapists, a professional degree, BTEC Level six in advanced clinical and sports massage. Christine has 14 years of massage and bodywork experience, coupled with a background in performing arts, sales, teaching and business across the UK and Australia, she has been exposed to an extraordinary blend of perspectives, which has resulted in a truly unique framework of sustainability and fulfillment that is changing the way massage therapists, myotherapists and body workers develop their business and hands on practical skills across The Globe. I hope you enjoy this episode with Christine.

Christine, welcome to the radical massage therapist podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Hi,

Krista, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be

here. I really appreciate your time. You are in Australia right now, so we are chatting at very different times of the day. It's about nine o'clock in the morning for me and 11pm for you, so I certainly appreciate you taking this time to organize the episode. Yeah, you were highly recommended, and I'm loving the topics that we're going to discuss today, just also generally curious about what massage therapy is like on the other side of the world, how you got to that other side of the world. And I think I'm starting to piece them things together, but before I get into that, because I'd like to go all over the place. Please tell me what your favorite part about being a massage therapist is.

Oh, it's the transformation, isn't it? When people come in and they're having trouble moving or trouble with pain, and then we're able to give them some hope that it doesn't always have to be like this, that there is the ability for them to feel empowered and be part of the journey of change. So that's what I really love about massage therapy,

the transformation. Yeah, that's a really, really great perspective as well. Our receptionist back in the day, used to say it really they were a new person. They would come in with maybe, like a stern face, bit miserable or just kind of like hunched she said they come out of those treatment rooms, back through reception, and they are an entirely new person. It's pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were recommended to me by James crook, and Alicia has been on the podcast from it was massage champions, and so now I'm starting to piece some things together. But what is your connection?

So my connection is James and Alicia are my business partners. Yeah, so a very long time ago, when Alicia first started massage champions, she ran a 12 month program, and I was one of the first members of that program with her, okay,

so, so your business partners and and then you were one of their, like, very, very first to go through the program. Yeah,

incredible. So I had very recently moved to Australia from Scotland with my family, and I was really in Scotland, I'd had a really strong connection with lots of other massage therapists and the trainers that I trained with and everything. And in Australia, I was looking for the same thing, and I and I came across the massage champions and found my community in them. So yeah, I

think that finding that community can be really challenging for massage therapists, because even though we might work in a team environment and multidisciplinary clinics or or other with other massage therapists, it still can feel very isolating when you're you're always one on one with a client in a treatment room. And there's always just differing opinions about business or practices, and we kind of be kind of introverts as well, so we don't always want to socialize, but it's wonderful and reassuring as well that it like within you can find these communities and then find that connection between other massage therapists who are not, I don't wanna say like minded, but as open minded and driven and have similar goals as well. Can you share what brought you from Scotland to Australia?

Yeah, my husband's job. My husband worked in the university in Edinburgh. Prior to that, he worked in Australia for a government science body over here, and he was asked to return. So we went. We went back to Australia, which was wonderful, you know. And we've now been here for for 10 years, and we're citizens and very, very settled in Australia, yeah, okay,

that's wonderful. I do love, like, the flexibility that comes with our career as well. Can you share what it was like to when you started massage therapy. Did you like you started in the UK? Was it in Scotland?

Yeah, that's right, yeah. So when I started there the UK, the system's quite different to Australia as well, which is interesting. What can I really tell you about that I did a really great qualification. It was more a holistic massage qualification, and touching on all aspects myofascial techniques and somatic techniques, and obviously all your anatomy and physiology as well. So it was a very rounded training that I received, which is quite different from Australia, because in Australia, there's a set standard nationally across Australia of what their entry qualification is, and then their diploma, and then they have advanced diplomas as well. So it's very, very regulated in terms of, you will study these muscles. You'll study this aspect of fascia, this aspect of lymphatics, whereas in the UK, it's completely up to the trainer, so the the training can be very variable, depending on where you are, yeah.

And so what did it look like when you wanted to practice in Australia, coming from the UK, and what did that process look like?

Yeah, well, luckily for me, I'd done advanced studies in the UK. Have a degree from the UK, and that meant that I could do what's called RPL. So you get your trying to think now what it stands for. That's terrible, but basically they look at the curriculum that you studied, and then you get points for everything. And I had to go and take a they said, Oh, the theory and everything. We believe that you've got that down, but let's just check that you've got the hands on skills. So I had to provide a model and massage for a relaxation massage, and then I had to provide a model and massage for a remedial massage, and be marked against the marking criteria that they had, which was like, oh, okay, I can do that. So yeah, and that's, that's what happened. I got an RPL qualification, which meant that I could get insured. It meant I could join an association, and, you know, attain all the professional standards required here in Australia. So, yeah, that's good

for anybody that that's listening that hasn't heard the terms of remedial massage before. It's very common. I'm understanding in in Australia, to refer to the two types of massage, relaxation and remedial massage. Are you able to give a bit of a difference? Yeah,

sure. So I guess the relaxation style massage, that's usually the first tier of the diploma qualification. So it's called this certificate for qualification, and that has a set curriculum which mainly focuses on the stress management and the muscles associated with that nervous system, the physiology around that and then remedial is more your trigger points and more fascial techniques and what else do they cover lymphatics as well. Well, yeah, so it's just like a deeper understanding of the musculoskeletal system and the conditions involved and how to treat various client types. And you can do specializations, so sports or working with older people, geriatric massage is what they call that here, or with younger people. So there's lots of different variations of what you can specialize in

with that diploma. That's great. And so that's a great segue, because you have some specializations that you've you've brought into your practice, and I would probably touch on all of them, one of them that I'm definitely seeing more of in my own practice and seeing the benefit, but I'm having to refer out for this part. But I want to talk about scar you're very big on scar tissue therapy and remedial hot stone, so I want to touch on on both of those. But can we start with how your you sort of became more in tune with the connection of scar tissue and associated pain in the body.

Yeah, absolutely, yes. So I first became interested in scars when I actually received an impromptu treatment at a workshop in the UK. I had been suffering was struggling throughout this workshop that I was attending as an attendee, which was not about scar tissue. I had really bad menstrual cramps, and I was like, oh, struggling. I mentioned it to one of my colleagues, and she was like, Oh, I'll give you treatment in the break, you know, because that happens all the time. We just are so kind to each other, really. And I jumped on the table. I was fully clothed, and she basically did what I didn't know then, but I know now, was a transverse plane, a myofascial technique, where she basically sandwiched me between her hands, so one hand on my sacrum, one's hand on my abdomen, and she just sat there in this still hold, and I was lying supine and fully clothed, and just a bit like, wow, this is nothing. Nothing's working. What's happening here? Didn't really understand what's going on. I was probably about six months out of massage school, and then she just leaned right in, and she was like, Christine, when did you have your surgery? And I was like, How did you know had surgery? She goes, I can feel it. And I was like, oh, what? So that was mind blowing for me. And I was just sort of kind of freaked out, and stayed on the table maybe 10 minutes. And then she was like, Okay, we you can hop off now. So hopped off. And was just like, not really in pain, not the same pain as I was in. And I had done stretching and breathing and meditation and even taking painkillers all before that workshop, and nothing had touched the edge of this, and she'd done, like, 10 minutes, maybe 15 Max, and I got off the table feeling completely different. And that was what sparked me, because I was just like, What has she done? How did she know I had surgery? What's that even got to do with it? How? How did she know this? And I was totally closed. And yeah, so it just brought up all of these questions. So then I started to find out a little bit more about scar tissue. What is it? How is our fascia involved in it? And started this exploration, this journey of learning all about scars. And I learned a lot from a lot of different people around scars and around fascia. When I started to use it, I was trained in clinical sports massage, so I was using cross fiber friction and skin rolling and C bending and torquing and all of these things, right? And I was like, Oh, this doesn't feel too kind to these clients on their scars. And now through the process of trying it out, and yes, it worked, but it just never quite felt right. So I was almost at the stage of shelfing all of these techniques, and I came across more gentle techniques. So I started to try these out. And then I went and learned lymphatic drainage, decongestant, lymphatic therapy. It's called in Australia. The more I want to say advanced techniques, it's true, they are. It's not just our manual lymphatic it's a bit more focused on redirecting the lymphatics and understanding how a scar affected that. So this all was happening all at once. I started using. And more gentle techniques, and they seem to still work. And I thought, oh, gosh, wow, that's amazing. I'm getting good results, and it feels good to do doesn't, because I kept just thinking, These people have been through enough already. I don't want to hurt them. And so it just these gentle techniques seem to work really well, and they liked having that done. They they were the feedback I was getting from clients was, this is relaxing. It feels good. I feel great. And I'd look at their skin before and after, and it was the same color. It wasn't all pinked up and red. And I was like, Okay, this is doing something, and now I have to find out what. So again, more research, more study, more experimentation, and in my clinic. So I ran a clinic in a small country, rural town, and I started teaching my staff this, and then they started doing it so people were coming in to us with things like back pain and headaches. And what I found was when I started asking every single client, do you have a scar? Nine times out of 10 people with low back pain had an abdominal scar, and I was like, Ah, I wonder, how about, how about we just treat your scar today, and you can come back next week and let me know how it's gone. If it hasn't done anything, I'll treat you again. No problem. I'll treat your back. So I started treating people's low back pain by treating their abdominal scars so not touching their back at all, and their back pain would either dissipate or completely resolve. And this was people who had had surgeries 2030, years ago. And I was like, wow. So this is something and again, more research, more learning, getting my staff to try it out, they were getting the same results as me. It's like, okay, this is this is great. And so we just kept doing that. So we were finding people with headaches had dental scars. So I'd gone over to the UK and I studied TMJ and entered into oral techniques with an amazing trainer there who also understood scars. They all it was all just adding up and adding up and adding up. Yeah, so that's, that's kind of scars.

I think that's such fascinating information, and it's reassuring that we still have the tools to help our clients just by going deeper, right? It's about our own exploration and how and what new courses we can take, or new things we can learn. And also, even, even with our training here in Ontario, we we do have the qualifications to just start like, just start somewhere, just using your, know, your intuition, and your your best, you know, medical judgment, to start on the on the scars. So that's really encouraging. And I've said before in episodes, I think sometimes we just need permission to try it. Because sometimes we, you know, we might be concerned about how a client is going to feel after if we're going to injure them. But I really love that connection, because I am seeing it more in my practice with the abdominal scars in particular, C's C section with women, and then that low back pain, because I'm working on the back, working on the back, working on the back. We're not really getting what we're working on the glutes. We're working on the glutes, we're working on the hamstrings. We're, you know, we're working on it all. And then I'm my my next referral is usually to a chiropractor. And what that chiropractor was doing was they were using laser therapy on the C section scar, and then the back pain was was dissipating. And so this is just a really nice reminder and a nice connection that we don't necessarily need to refer out too quickly, that we have the tools, and that the connection with the headaches is really helpful as well, because the abdomen might seem more obvious, and then and then with the headaches, with dental scars that that's really helpful as well, to to be reminded of, yeah,

even the thyroid scars, and even shoulder reconstructions from sports injuries, all of those, you know, the fascia, it's like this Pool, yeah, and it's causing tension. And this tensional patterns fascia and affecting the nerves, so alterations of sensations, numbness, we can help with that very light, gentle touch, even hypersensitivity of touch as well. We can really help with that too, things like itching. All of these symptoms that they have just come to accept as the best that they can expect of their scar. We can really help. It's fascinating. And the pressure that I'm using when I'm saying light, it's really is light. It's, if you put your finger on your eyelid, it's that pressure. It's super light, so surprising, remarkable results, and now I'm teaching it. All of the students are getting the same results. It's incredible. Yeah,

so share more about about how you're sharing this with the massage community, and how you're you're teaching, and so that others might who might be interested could could learn this technique? Yeah, absolutely.

So I actually teach this online across eight weeks. So each week we have filmed case studies that I have had in my clinic. So it's the first time I've been treating those people. So I do consultation, assessment and treatment, and I really wanted to keep the models that came in for these educational purposes for me what to keep them really safe so they're real treatments. And what I've done afterwards is I've come back in, looked at the film and done VoiceOver so the students get to know what's going on in my head. And this client, the person on the table, is really safe, and they're looked after. And I'm very present with that person in the moment. And the camera is like looking at what my hands are doing. They're looking at everything else I'm looking at. So I look at the global effects of the person, because scars can affect distant the incision, as well as at this incision site. So it's multifaceted. What happens with the scars? It's really fascinating. So, for example, with masctomies, we all can kind of understand the movement. Range of movement is vastly usually reduced with mastectomy scarring and especially with cording. And we can treat cording with the same light, light touch. There's none of this. What I like to think of as more aggressive language, like snapping of cording. And you know, when people say, I'm breaking down scar tissue or getting rid of scar tissue, that's really not the language that I encourage. It's more we're softening and creating space, and we're helping the lymphatics to flow, the blood flow as well, and the nervous system to get replenished by both lymphatics and blood flow, which is going to help restore that sensation. So it's, yeah, it's really cool stuff, and it's so beautiful. The results people get just fascinating. Yeah. Love

how you're changing the language that we use as well, because you're right that breaking up of scar tissue, you know, like that, that force really is, is common language. And then I love how you said, it's a it's more of a softening and an opening. And that, I think that makes a big difference. One of, one of my questions is also, how, how how do you start to introduce this to a client who might be used to what's not aggressive, it's not going to be effective. Yeah,

that's really is a common thing worldwide. Common thing because they're used to being told, Oh, you need to go and rub your C section scar, really, really, really hard, and you need to start doing that straight away. Actually, when it comes to scars, there's no rush, there's no hurry, the scar is always going to be there. And in my experience, I've managed to help people with scars that are really quite old, and what I say to them is just think about if you were, if you had,

you know, you're, you're a child or a pet,

you're never going to be harsh to them. So just treat yourself with the same love and respect as a little bit like almost. You know, when the flowers are growing in the garden, we don't be like, okay, that flower needs to open. Now, let's force open the petals. We just don't do that. Do we? We allow nature to take its course. We allow healing to happen as it should happen, and we can help that along by nurturing and looking after our clients really beautifully so and connecting with them. So it's a bit the same as the plants. We create an environment in which they can flourish, and it's the same with our clients.

I also love the reminder that you you experienced the technique with your clothing on, and in 10 minutes, you felt the the effects. Maybe you didn't feel the changes as. It was happening. I know your friend definitely, like, could definitely sense what was happening. But I feel like this is also a really great reminder for our profession in general that techniques don't always involve the removal of clothing that you you can have, yeah, you can have that comfort and that accessibility as well, because some people just can't even take off or put on their socks in the in the morning. So if they don't have to do that again in a massage treatment, then it's just wonderful that that you're providing that technique without, you know, creating more more of a like you said, they're already in pain they've already been through enough, like, let's remove even more vulnerability and just allow them to be fully closed on the table and still feel what you're working on. I do agree with this, and it's amazing how you kind of get split into two camps that say, No, you got to be like, skin right on the scan there, Rich is sharing, sharing and then versus like, yeah, actually, you can, you can feel things through, through the clothing. Absolutely, absolutely

great Krista and I've had some great results, even with people who are sensitive to other people looking at their scar like they themselves might not look at their scar. They themselves may have never touched their scar, and so is quite common sometimes with C sections, in particular, because it's a real change in identity, and depending if it's planned or unplanned, that can really have vast psychological effects for people, things like mastectomies. Sometimes people are just very they've actually been almost dehumanized by the medical process that they've gone through in the care that they've received, and yes, life saving surgery and very much needed and required and fantastic work that the medical fraternity do. However, in the process, I think the human element is sometimes lost, and that's where massage can definitely come in. We are kings and queens of building rapport and client connection and communication. So even if that communication is through physical touch rather than verbalization, so we can very much help people, even I have clients who will put their hand on their scar, and I'll work through their hand so that they are safe and I'm not breaching any ethical protocols that I need To adhere to with my associations. I'm not actually touching them in places that I'm not supposed to by the Australian standards that we have here. Yeah,

yeah. And I think that's really wonderful as well, to just be reminded of, of those, those boundaries, because we could get clients because, as you said, they're so dehumanized from this, this experience, that they sort of go, well, whatever, like, everybody's seen everything. I've been through it all. It's fine. Whatever you can, you can see it. You can like, you can touch that area. And even in, in our practice, you know, even it was a mastectomy, a full removal, we're still supposed to treat that area as if, you know, there was a full breast there, so you're being respectful of those boundaries and, and that's a great reminder again, that you can do techniques over top of the client's hand again over clothing and, and it is just reassuring for them to to feel what what you're feeling, and to know that it is safe for them to work on their own scars. Because I get the opposite. I feel like, instead of people being aggressive, they're scared to work on their own bodies and and that's really frustrating as well. I also feel, in particular with the the community that has gone through like the breast cancer surgeries that like, they're, you know, they're, they're always perceived as this, like strong, like fighters, warriors. And then they're like, I'm like, so have you been doing self massage? Well, no, I'm too scared to touch it, and it's been months, and it's just interesting, and they again, they just need that permission, or that approval from from one of us to to show them that it is safe and effective.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. The the amount of disassociation that can happen is huge, actually, for people, and it's a whole change of identity as well. For people, they don't look the same, they don't feel the same, they're not the same. They're changed by their experience, their lived experience, of whatever condition or requirement for surgery, whether that was you know, a condition, you know, a disease that they had, or. That was, say, an act of crime or an accident, road traffic accident or misadventure of some sort. There's all sorts of things that could be caught up in, in scars, yeah, one,

one experience that has been been coming up, or one topic, I guess, that has been coming up is being trauma informed in our practice as well, I would say, in particular, when we are working with these deep, deeper wounds that individuals have had for years and years from examples as you just gave, is there, is there a an awareness of that in in your associations now and and how you're bringing it into your practice? Yeah,

I think that it's becoming more more common. More people are more aware of it. I was very lucky in my initial training that my one of my teachers was a somatic practitioner, and very much trauma informed she was also a shamanic healer as well, which so brought in another element of healing. Yeah, and she would, she really helped us understand that everything that we do is very powerful and to take an approach of listening, listening with our hands, listening with our hearts and our heads, and so to understand, rather than to respond, and just to be really curious and open, open to what's someone else's experience. So really, even just from very simple things, if someone comes in and tells us that they have become pregnant not to immediately jump to an assumption of congratulations or, or, oh my goodness, yeah, either, or Yeah. So just even that very tip of the iceberg of trauma, informed, yeah, of that non judgmental approach, yes. And in Australia, it's really, really becoming more commonplace for therapists to be much more trauma informed and much more trauma aware. Yeah,

I agree here as well. We're moving in that, that direction it is up to us as individual therapists. But I believe as a community, we are understanding more and more how we need to be better, better informed and educated on this topic. And one thing as well, with your with you, which what you said about listening with your hands, I think probably expectations as well. Are managing expectations are really important for both you and the client, because the body healing is not linear. And so can you explain how you know maybe some of those expectations might come into play when you try to enforce, like, a need to come out of the treatment. Yeah,

yeah. So the type of thing that could potentially happen is someone has more of an emotional release on the table. Is that really what you're asking about Krista, yeah.

It could be that or that the outcome of each particular treatment is not always what we think it's going to be,

yeah, yeah. I mean, actually, I do say to people, there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee who will just see what happens? Yeah, it's likely I can help with this just based on experience. Yeah, however, let's see what it's going to be like for you. There's no guarantee. And certainly I never tell people that I can change the appearance of those scars. It is a happy side effect 90% of the time that the scar improves, sometimes the scar is more visible. Because what happens? Sometimes the fascia is gets pulled down in toward the body, like vacuumed in. And as we create space, that scar lifts and it becomes slightly more visible, sometimes on the surface of the skin, which might not be what the person experiences. It's like, you're always going to have a scar. I cannot remove that. It's always going to be there. However, we can work with scars so that it you feel like yourself again, yeah? So it feels like a happier part of your body, yeah? So yeah, so that you're happier in the skin that you're in. And these are all things that I would suggest as great treatment outcomes for the for the person. And we benchmark, we we benchmark with photography and video as well as with written notes. Yeah,

I feel that that's a really important piece as well, because when the client is in the middle of healing. Um, they they don't always remember how far they've come. So that's really wonderful that you do provide an a visual um element to that recovery is really important. So that's that's helpful to know as well. Is that something that you also share within your your course?

Yeah, absolutely. So we teach people how to do that and how to get the permissions that they will need for that as well, so that their clients are making informed decisions around their treatments. And I also send all of my pictures and videos to the clients as well, and they love that. They're like, go out for coffee and say, Oh, look at my scar, before they show all their friends and family and everything. So that's really, really quite nice. And we make sure that everyone's got the proper permissions how to protect themselves and protect their clients, even in in the course like I have one model who would prefer her identity protected, and she is a survivor of having a burn like quite dramatic burn from childhood, and so we filmed her from behind, so it's just the back of her head, and you just see me do my consultation with her, so it teaches ways in which we can protect people and still take video footage and understand what's going on for them. So yeah, we have all different types of scars in that course, as well, from self harm to burns to large abdominal scars to keyhole surgeries. Facial scars are one of our lovely models. She came in with a scar on her knee, and she'd been told and taken the instructions, really literally, from her medical team, to not bend her knee so she didn't bend her knee for 18 months. Okay? So you can imagine the lymphatics then nice and swollen, and meant that she couldn't no longer take part in line dancing, which was her only form of exercise, and it's also a social activity. So she's sitting at home, keeping her legs straight, not going outline dancing, not having fun with the girls, and not exercising. Then she put on weight, and then self esteem, and this cascade of other secondary aspects of having a scar happened. So this biopsychosocial model, you know, just incredible.

It also sounds like your course is very global, globally accessible as well, with online first of all, but it seems to be accessible to every massage therapist from each corner of the globe. Seems to be able to understand and use it in their practice. Yeah,

absolutely, absolutely. So we do help with the marketing of this pricing in your area, how to actually approach your clients, to let them know that you're doing this for what it actually is. Because some people are like, what's my scar got to do with that? You know, there's nothing wrong with my scar. It's my back. So how do we explain this to clients? How do we get this across without using too much jargon, without using all that technical words, and how do we explain it in a way that's successful to members of the public. That is helpful as well. So we do a lot of the business side as well as the hands on techniques. So we, we actually do have run through all the techniques online. We have zoom meetings every week for an hour where we watch the footage, and then they come back every week and we have conversation. Or, now, did you guys notice this? What do you think I could have done better? Did you notice the mistake I made there? Or, and then people like, how do you do this? And what do you why did you do it like that? So, for instance, we have a lady with an open heart surgery. And one of the therapists, just this week we finished up. She's like, Christine, why did you work in her drain site instead of the actual scar on the sternum? I'm like, it was quite a fresh scar for her. It was three months old, but it was fresh to her, and open heart surgery meant that her mortality was really very much front and center, brought to sharp focus unexpectedly, and she had quite a lot of trauma around it. So in order not to re traumatize that, but to let her have a minute just. Still processing, so we worked on the drain sites as well. And it's like, you know, come back in a couple of weeks, and we'll work on the other stuff, or, you know, and just gently, and we don't need to work the whole scar. We can just work on what she's comfortable with. But because of this open heart surgery, and she happened to have an older scar, which was also vertical, that ran from her umbilicus down to pubic bone. It meant that she had a scar, basically from her entire front of her body, and she was wearing different clothing, trying to hide it and scarves and things, because it came up above, like her normal necklines that she would normally wear, and she found that really confronting. And it's like, okay, so this person is actually still processing this, still getting used to this, and that's okay. They're not quite at a place. Yes, they're saying the right things, but the information I'm actually receiving is they're still processing this So, and when we had a little conversation around that, I would I said, How about perhaps we wait until you're a little bit more comfortable, because there's lots of time we don't need to rush this. And she was just like, yeah, that would be great. So it's like, okay, and I think that's really important to be able, even when people are saying the right things, to actually go, Okay, can I just double check that? This is really how you're feeling around this. Can I just double check and her to go, actually, thank you, because I think a bit more time would be good for me. Okay, it's great. Yeah,

your clients are so lucky to have you, your skill set, but also your, your just your bedside manner sounds lovely, and just your ability to read, you know, read their body language, read their emotions. They're very fortunate to to have a practitioner like you. So I hope that they, they they do know, and I'm so sure that like that translates in through your teachings as well, because it you know, so many of our clients have dealt with the abrupt let's get this done. Let's get you on the table. Let's just get in there. And you know you're not going to get better if we don't work on this area. So it's it's just building that trust is only going to enhance their healing long term. Make sure it might be longer before they but you know, the healing is going to be so much more effective because of that connection that you've built with them. Yeah,

I think I was just always taught just go in with no agenda. Go in with no agenda. Just take people where they're at on that day. There's always something you could do. You know, if this person doesn't want their scar worked on, you can do something else, yeah? So, I mean, it's not that I'm not going to treat them, it's just that we're not going to do that today exactly.

Yeah. And I think that speaks to your professional, your professional skills as well, that you're not, you're not just tunnel visioned on this particular treatment on this particular day, on this particular area where I, I will say, unfortunately, some massage therapists, they might be very skilled, but they're very like this, this, this, like they don't necessarily see the big pictures and that you're right. Okay, we can't work on this today, but we can work on this, and it will at least give you some relief in this area, or even just a massage, a relaxation massage on any particular day can just make a big difference.

Yeah, just having someone, I guess what's important to me is that my clients feel heard and seen, and that makes a huge difference. I mean, research shows us that bedside manner is effective at helping people out of pain before we've even touched them, which it's a little confronting as a physical body manual therapist, people can actually feel better without me touching them, although even better, if we do both, right? Yeah, I

feel like there is a stat that it's a big 50% of the treatment is it, like you said, is done before? Like they're, they're already making an assumption about us before. Like, as you said, they get their hands on, like they've walked into the room, and 50% is, it's either going to go in a good direction or are not with your with your skill set. We also sort of introduced remedial hot stone there at the very beginning. How did that become part of your practice? What? What is remedial hot stone? And I also feel. Like it was sort of a discovery, yeah, for you on how it's starting to benefit, not something that, again, with the expectations, you kind of maybe saw it as working in one thing, and then it started to positively affect your clients in other ways. Yeah,

yeah, that's actually true. And it was actually, I always just say it's like the best mistake I ever made was using, inadvertently using a hot stone on a client who had booked for a remedial treatment. And I just had my hot stones on, and I picked up a stone, and I started using it. And she was like, Oh, what's that, Christine? I was like, oh, it's oh no, you didn't book for this. Oh no, I'm so sorry. And I was, you know, a very young therapist at the time, and super apologetic, and like, Oh my goodness. And she's like, No, no, I love it. Keep doing it. And then so I was like, Oh, okay. And I just just started using the stones as an extension of my hands. So exactly as I would use my hands to do a session to relieve low back pain or shoulder pain or neck pain, and I just brought in the stones as an extension of myself. So I was trigger pointing with them. I was doing my fashion release work with them. Yeah, I was, I was just using them as an extension of my hands. And the plus point to that was they just felt like no work to me. It was so easy on my hands, I felt like a bit of a cheat, to be quite honest, and there was, I pick up a lot of energy when I'm working, you know, from my clients. So it actually provided that physical barrier. So I felt quite energetically protected as well. And I liked so much about it. I liked that you have them in a big water bath and that they make a little chinky noise when you bash them together a little bit. And I just, I like the way they felt in my hands, and yeah, and so I just started to incorporate them into all of my treatments. And it wasn't until somebody came in one time and there were a new client, and I thought, oh, gosh, I just can't do this cheaty thing anymore. And I didn't use stones. And the person on the table said, Ah, Christine, I heard that you used hot stones in all your treatments. And I go, Oh, I normally do. Did you want that? And they were like, Yeah, okay. And then I was like, okay, so this is a thing now. So I just started to say to people, you know, it's a remedial treatment, but I use a lot of hot and cold in all my treatments. So depending on what I think is going to work for you and the outcome you're looking for, I might bring that in, but I'll let you know if it's going to be hot or cold, or you know how we're going to make that work. And people loved it. And yeah, there was a lot of plus points that I discovered over doing it, and one of the main ones was that with my remedial treatments, I used to say to people, you know, I might be off of your Christmas card list for about 24 hours. You might feel the achy tomorrow or the next day, but I should be back on your Christmas card list, you know, in a couple of days. And they were like, oh, okay, but with the hot stones that didn't happen, they were not getting any post massage soreness, no DOMs at all. And that was a shock. I was like, hmm, this is real. And it wasn't until again my staff, I taught all my staff, and they started using it, and clients were coming back, going, I found great the next day, no problem. And I was like, Okay. And then when I asked, I started teaching that as well, and when I asked my students, they were like, no, no one is getting sore the next day. I was like, That's cool, yeah. So yeah. It's really, really lovely to hear that.

Yeah. I love, I love that story, how it was like a literal accident, and there was just this immense benefit that came out of it. And I feel that it is really beneficial. We have some of my colleagues that are using there's the hot stones in their therapeutic treatments. And they do, they let a new client know that that's they do incorporate the stones. Is that okay with you most of the time? It usually is. They really are sought after for, you know, for them, like I don't use it. So certainly somebody might pro. For to have a treatment with them, which is certainly fine. It's very much for them. They realize how beneficial it is for their longevity in the career as well. So that's really wonderful to hear, and you're using it as a tool, as an extension of your hands. And you know, as you've already described with the scar tissue work, even being done over the clothing. You can feel trigger points and tension in the body through the stone when you get more comfortable with using them as a tool. Yeah,

absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's they are amazing, yeah, yeah.

So it's just nice, and it's encouraging, because so many massage therapists probably have access to the hot stones already. Do you teach a course on this, or do you just encourage people to go out and play? I do teach a course on this as well,

and it's the same. It's online. It's online again and again eight weeks, and we have a weekly zoom, and all the content is broken down into different areas of the body. So we refresh anatomy, we look at different conditions. So how, how would I provide a treatment for headaches? How would I provide what muscles would I be looking at? How would I use the stones? How would I use hot? How would I use cold? What are they actually doing in the body? And then we look at different clients. So how would I treat someone who has arthritis? Would I use hot? Would I use cold? What am I going to do? How? How could I treat someone who is having a hot flash on my table from menopause? How about pregnant people? Can I use heat with them? So, yeah, we go through all of these different client types, even using cold or room temperature stones for people with conditions that might mean that their skin is a little thinner or fragile, or that they're older

or, you know,

we had a lady, one of the therapists, actually, I think she had very long career, like 29 year career, and she was like, you know, I was a bit skeptical as to what Christine could teach me. She said that the cold, the cold stones, were just fantastic. And she had a couple of people with endless stanless syndrome, and she said using the cold with those people was just phenomenal. So yeah, she got a lot of really good feedback, and she actually had went to one of the centers up in Brisbane that specializes in that particular condition, and spoke to them, and they were like, Oh, we've never thought of cold stones. That's amazing. So she's running out, doing a whole bunch of things with them, in association with them, and yeah, whole new client that she's connecting with and helping. So it's really cool,

brilliant, wonderful. You did mention that this the stones helped you sort of protect your energy, just creating that barrier. And you said that you do pick up on the energy of your clients, and I feel like this is very common in our massage career, any type of body work. What are some of the ways that you you do help to protect your energy, or what have you, what have you found helpful over the years? Yeah, grounding,

being really grounded, and just taking a moment to make sure that you know I'm present and that I'm grounded before I even touch them, so just taking that and I can do it in just a few moments. And I do teach, teach my students how to do this as well. And I was always taught about having an inner vessel, is the thing that I was taught, yeah, one of my one of my teachers, she was actually a tea toddler, but she said, I have an inner vessel, but it's a glass of pink champagne. And she was a teetotaler. It was like, just this image. When I think of mine, it's like, I can conjure up in like a second now, you know, it's, you know, multi, multi colored. There's like, music, and, you know, it was like a beautiful glass of water that's filled from a spring and the Alps, and there's, like, you know, the cowbells and the mountains and the snow and the blue sky, and from Heidi, yeah, showing my age probably as well, but, but that's what I see. I think of that overflowing, beautiful, pure water and grounding and just taking a moment to be like, okay, and then I can begin, yeah.

Can you describe a little bit more about your vessel? So if. Ever looked inward and it wasn't overflowing like have you ever seen it? But

no, I only ever have it overflowing. Yeah, so I I only ever vision it in that state, and it's gets me to hook into being in that mind set of abundance and having that overflow

of,

I guess, resources, you know, resources, I think, Yeah, lovely, very

helpful advice. I think we can always use a reminder on grounding and just visualization. Abundance is really important to me on the podcast as well. So yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you. I have a, I have a quick, like Rapid Fire question, but is there anything else that you would like to wrap up with today based on what we discussed making sure that we've, you know, covered everything that is so wonderful about your trainings. Yeah, I

think, I think we've covered it really. I mean, if anyone's interested, they can have a look. I'm sure you put something in your show notes, but, yeah, I will. But

please share what the how they can get in touch with you on here as well. Yeah,

sure. They can check out our website, which is health leadercool.com, and if you go there, you can check out the programs that we have there. We've got a lot of, well, the modality programs, but also business programs, too great, and it's global, like, you don't have to, yeah, it's global. You don't have to be in Australia. We have, yeah, we actually have clients all over the world, in Canada as well. The materials that we give to people are forever access. They don't run out. It's you just have forever access. And then all of our lovely graduates go into a graduates group, so they can always get in touch with us. They can ask questions, and yeah, we have a beautiful community there.

It's wonderful to know. So as we wrap up, I just had an idea because I spoke to a massage therapist, Trevor chisman, who used to live in England, and now lives in Scotland and is practicing so I'm curious, as somebody who's from Scotland now living in Australia, the clean versions of, potentially things that are different, or some things that you really love about, like the the new Aussie slang versus, you know what, what you were used to in Scotland? Are you able to share a few of your favorites?

Well, just very small things. In Scotland, we always say, How are you doing? And in Australia, they always say, how are you going, which is just kind of weird, and they're very can do in their approach to life. In Australia, they're very sunny. They're they really are like the weather over here, they're very, very sunny. And in Scotland, we're a little less Sunny, perhaps we have a lot of rain there and snow and cold weather. So we can be a little a little sadder at times. So I do enjoy that, and we're positive attitude, yeah,

absolutely. Well, Christine, this has been wonderful. I'm very grateful that we were able to connect, and I know this information is going to be so helpful to our listeners. Thank you for taking the time out of your sleep to check to chat with us. You're welcome. Thank you for having me on you