Storytelling for Social Impact + Building Narrative Intelligence - John Trybus

7:08PM Oct 22, 2021

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

John Trybus

Keywords:

story

jane goodall

work

social impact

nonprofit

storytelling

organization

people

thinking

john

world

narrative

jane

life

create

blur

linked

human

community

montessori

Hey, I'm john.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the we are for good podcast.

nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

So welcome to the good community, where nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Hey, Becky, welcome

everybody.

Oh my goodness, this conversation today,

I am going to make a pre emptive statement here and say that I think I'm about to meet one of my heroes. Because the person that we have on the podcast today, not only is he going to walk us through storytelling for social impact, that's like at the barest forms, what we're about to discuss, but it's like john tribe, us, Dr. Don john tribe, as the professor, the executive director of the Georgetown University Center for Social Impact communication. PS, why was this not around when I was in college, john has had a wealth of experience in social impact. And not just on the academic side, not just on the marketing and the communication side, but in the field. So we are so excited to welcome john to the podcast today. He's a social strategist. And he is on a mission to help impact organizations embrace the blur between sectors, functions, departments, and human strengths for good. So he is leading this incredible Center for Social Impact over at Georgetown, and they're diving into the research and the Action Center work to really ignite movements and the power of responsible marketing and communication and journalism and they want it to lead to societal change. That's pretty impressive. But what if I told you that john went on like a year long tour side by side with the doctor Jane Goodall?

You did?

I mean, this is an incredible human who cares about the climate? Who cares about where our our footprint is in this world, how we're being lied to others. He served as a strategist at the British Embassy in Washington, DC. And he just has a couple clients, you might know them Tiffany and company, L'Oreal, Paris, Coca Cola, Microsoft Major League Baseball, and he is diving today straight into how we can storytel our impact for good john, welcome to the show. We are so delighted you are here

such an honor.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And an Oreo Boy, that introduction, flattery will get you everywhere with me. downhill from here.

It's funny, we had to pare it back. We really did.

I only did like maybe 25% of this. It's so amazing. But you know, we like to start rather than just with your bio, we want to know who you are as a human being we want to know about little Johnny growing up with this heart for service. Tell us about Yeah, where you grew up and your journey leading you to Dr. Goodall, and into this amazing position in Washington, DC.

Well, I grew up in Chicago, and anybody who is from Chicago, or the Chicago area is extremely proud of it. And I'm no exception. I am proud to be from Chicago. And specifically, though I'm from the suburbs, Oak Park, Illinois, which I fondly refer to as the Hollywood of the Midwest. It's a really special place in a number of ways. I mean, first, of course, no place is without its faults, so to speak. But Oak Park was an amazing place to grow up in extremely progressive suburb of Chicago really kind of ahead of its time and surrounding areas, thinking about integration and equality for all people. And it's also though the Hollywood of the Midwest specifically, I don't think anybody else calls it that, by the way, I just do. I mean, granted it, let's do it, branded it, but it had a lot of famous residents. And so the architect Frank Lloyd Wright, and Ernest Hemingway, the author, and also some Unusual Suspects, Betty White, she was born in Oak Park, Kathy Griffin, the comedian, the voice of Homer Simpson, all from Oak Park, and I happen to be as well. So that's APR. So of course, it really influenced me coming from that environment. And you know, as you said in my introduction, I'm a professor, but I never imagined that that was going to be my path. I didn't, you know, as a young person grow up and saying, I'm going to be a teacher. I'm going to be a professor. But as I look back on my journey we got a lot to talk about with it is I really am kind of an accidental Professor and teacher who I think was meant to be. And what I mean by that is I am the exact combination of my parents. So my mother is an educator, including a college professor, and my father who has since passed, but such an amazing, amazing person. He was the executive director of a nonprofit called helping hand in the Chicago area that was about employing people with physical and intellectual challenges and disabilities. And so they were parents who never said you have to do this, or you have to do that or go in this direction. Looking back on it, boy, did I hit the jackpot. I became the combination of my parents, a professor of social impact and nonprofits. How did that happen? It's because

the world is so kind sometimes, and I love that it happened because we need more professors of social impact and my sympathies to you on the loss of your father, I can tell how much you respect and love him. You know, I just really think your story is fascinating. And I'm just I'm curious about the path to Jane Goodall, we cannot go through this conversation. We have Jane Goodall in our ungettable get list because she has been constant for decades, doing her thing in the kindest way, the most unintrusive way, but in an most global community, inspiring way, so I have to know how you got connected to her.

Well, I was doing so after growing up in Chicago, I came to Washington, DC, I was doing some work for National Geographic. And of course, Jane Goodall and National Geographic are inextricably linked. Jane was the original National Geographic Cover Girl, so to speak. So much of that storytelling, and of course, photography in particular is what really helped Jane communicate about her groundbreaking research. And so I was doing some work at National Geographic. And I found out that Jane was coming to town. And I think it's really rare in life when you can pinpoint an exact day that changed your life, and not be overly dramatic about it. But are you ready? March 8 2008. And Jane was giving a keynote at an annual Montessori convention in Washington DC and I of course, was a teacher at the time. I will admit to you that I didn't really know what Montessori was. I was just really committed to getting a golden ticket to hearing her speak. And so that's what I did. So I marched into the Marriott Wardman Park Hotel in Washington DC, and you know, all these conference hotels, they have the same carpeting.

Yeah, got a very busy, yes.

Very busy. If you look at it, it makes you dizzy, they get probably from the same conference hotel store. That was the scene and so I walked into that ballroom, I said, you know, maybe in like the second row with 5000 Montessori teachers. And I just was transported when Jane came on stage. And, you know, this distinguish scientist, you know, arguably not only a living legend, but perhaps the most consequential scientist who is alive today. And really was displaying a different form of leadership. You know, we think about the traditional forms of leaders where, you know, they're very, perhaps more loud or forceful with their communication style, and Jane was the exact opposite. She came with no notes, no visuals, and she really just spoke from the heart and she told stories, and you ever hear a different By the way, another little leader in my house, that's my cap melibea just her. And so she, you know, she told stories, she didn't recite facts, figures, statistics about her amazing discoveries. She told stories about how animals have personalities, minds and feelings. And I thought the exact same thing of course animals do. And she told stories about her mother and grandmother, and how they take, they let little Jane as a budding young scientist when she was growing up, take earthworms to bed with her, because she was interested in how the creepy crawlers worked. And I thought about my mom and grandmother and how they let me get away with a lot of different things. And when she was done, speaking, she hosted a book signing. And it was hours long. So there I stood with all these Montessori teachers made friends with them. And I eventually got up to meet Jane Goodall. And she wrote in my book, follow your heart. And so I was going through a bit of a transition at the time, was maybe going to go to the corporate sector, maybe make a little bit more money, not that there's anything wrong with the corporate sector. But I kept going back to that message and how I felt when Jane was telling those stories, and then really a twist of events that I think prove that we can plan all we want in life and Things just unfold and things perhaps that are in the stars just happened. Six months to the day after I first met Jane Goodall, I was not only working for her nonprofit, the Jane Goodall Institute, but I was working for Jane herself, and helping her plan that perpetual World Tour where pre COVID she travels more than 300 days a year perpetually non stop, since the 1980s. So I had both really the honor of traveling with her on many, many of those days and working with the team to execute that amazing, amazing world tour and the work that she does. So how was I so lucky to have that opportunity? I have no idea. You know, perhaps if you believe in karma, maybe I did something different, like that was positive, but forever changed my life, to say the least.

I love it. when good things happen to good people.

Me too. And goodness, I just there's a lot of pieces to your story that I just think are really telling in or themes that we see of people returning to purpose, returning to passion, and I feel like you had that awakening early on to where you still have this huge trajectory in front of you. You become really this expert in storytelling and I and it's not lost on me the way you unpack that story. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing here in the room with you like I feel the carpet, I know where your chair was, I know what you're feeling. And when you're holding that book, and I know that you believe in the power of storytelling, and you've studied it in a research capacity. I don't know that we've had anybody even talked to us on the podcast about the research component of understanding story. So would you kind of talk to us about your work, talk to us about how we can use story and what you've learned in all of your time and research.

I'm endlessly fascinated by stories and storytelling, and, of course, will not be lost on either of you and individuals listening as well is that storytelling is so much a part of the nonprofit sector, and social impact as a whole. But sometimes that means that we get into some traps within the nonprofit community is that we understand the power of storytelling, so many of us, but we get into traps of kind of repeating certain stereotypes and bias or, you know, only using stories, perhaps in the transit transactional sense to raise money. All of that is important. But, you know, as I really started kind of my research journey of better understanding and researching stories, there's so much more that's part of that. So amongst the reasons why I'm fascinated by stories is number one, because they help us make sense of the complexities of life, they are a vehicle of meaning making. Obviously, the world is extremely complicated. As we think about social impact issues. They're really intertwined. How do you make sense of them. But storytelling is one of the ways in which we can connect as human beings. And so stories have this interesting dichotomy. stories that are good, are relatable. So they make this space in our human minds and hearts for we can be different as human beings, you know, some of us can be born in Chicago, and some of us can be in Oklahoma, right? And we can celebrate those differences. But stories and perhaps common experiences can also bring us together. So it sounds like a dichotomy. But there is space and storytelling for what's different. But what's also the same. What I also love about stories is that they're time travelers. So what we as humans can uniquely do through stories is to remember the past to talk about the present. And even to envision a future that doesn't exist yet. So obviously, there's so many implications as we think about social impact and social change to use this vehicle of story for that. But really, the research side of what I'm up to, is not only shouting from the rooftops, the positive aspects of stories, I think our sector already gets that. But trying to make it more effective, poking some of the holes, perhaps, and thinking about actual formalized research, so that we can not only do better stories, but actually create storytelling organizations, within nonprofits and other organizations that are contributing to social impact. So those are some of the themes, if that makes sense that I'm really looking at and I'm really passionate about is not again, to fall into the traps, but to make our work more effective to create that social impact that vision of the future that we really want with our work.

I don't know where to begin to unpack this. I mean, this is my favorite thing to talk about is the convergence of human experience with story and how we can leverage that to make some connectivity and community because when you share those stories and can be Unity, there's there's such a camaraderie that comes with it. And, and we're all talking about, you know how we relate and then you're bringing in your own past experience. And then together, we can forecast the future or whatever that future is that we're envisioning together, I really want you to break down the five essential building blocks of compelling stories. And this is something you've come up with. And I have got my pen ready.

Yeah. So this is linked to applied research that we have at the Center for Social Impact communication at Georgetown, specifically, the stories worth telling report. And so this research was looking at a lot of DC area nonprofit organizations, and analyzing their storytelling efforts to think about kind of what are the ingredients of a good story, if you will. And so that framework came up with five, but actually, I have an add on I have.

And then I got to break this down even further, because it's it's not as explicit as this framework. So that's the caveat to begin with. But the five building blocks to begin our character is that sounds kind of obvious, but we are also abusing the term story within the sector is that we're calling everything almost a story, whether it is or is not, in the academic world, reading all those scholarly things, I read all that so other people don't have to, there is not one central definition, by the way of a story. This always fascinates me. There might be some commonalities, but it's really interesting, especially qualitative research that I'm doing, to explore how would people categorize right or define a story, it's very personal at times, but I think character is a central ingredient is that a story is actually about a person. Second is trajectory. Something happens in a story, we normally hear a beginning, middle, and an end that can be, but a story can move around in different directions, right? Third is authenticity. Or I would even call that a genuine This is that we're utilizing words. And we're putting people in an environment kind of like what I was doing trying to bring into when I first met Jane Goodall at that Montessori convention, even if somebody hasn't been there, is really trying to bring them there in terms of their mindset and things like that. Then, is action oriented emotions. Another key ingredient is emotions. How do you want people to feel when you're communicating a story? And we're really complex as Homo sapiens, right, but also homo narratives, meaning narrative? And so as we're thinking about the social impact is really how do you want people to feel on that emotional spectrum. And then lastly, is a hook if you can't capture people's attention, they're not going to want to listen to the rest. So really thinking kind of purposely about those beginnings of the story. But are you ready? Here's the sixth one that I think is really, really crucially important. That's not mentioned in that report. And that's the storyteller. And that really means who should be communicating that story. And so what I see a lot with the research that I'm doing, which I'd like to break out of this paradigm, as a sector, is that sometimes and we don't even realize it, we're taking ownership of other people's stories, again, sometimes for that fundraising benefit that we're trying to have in an organizational setting, but who actually owns a story. Arguably, it's somebody whose personal truth it is, so is part of our, you know, kind of call to action as a sector going forward. Not just being the storytellers. But being the story listeners and the story conveners and the story amplifiers have other stories that are out of out there in community. And there's so many different ways in which we can kind of define and think about community. But though that's the formal definition of a story. So those are stories that we're actually trying to create and get there in a different sense. But there's also an informal side of storytelling. This is really interesting to me. So back to what is actually a story. Not all of us consider ourselves to be a storyteller, but in reality, we are, at least according to the narrative paradigm theory. And sometimes we don't appreciate theories because they sound so boring and you don't understand how they're applied. But I think it's important to think about them and to apply them. So in a nutshell, what the narrative paradigm theory says is that it's in contrast to the rational world paradigm, thinking about logic in traditional terms. Instead, we make sense of the world through stories, their narrative. fidelity, and coherence. And we judge things that we encounter based on that. And that we really are all storytellers, and story consumers. So if that's the case, all organizations and communities that we're part of, are also this cohesive, but yet fragmented body of all these different stories going on within that. So sometimes we don't appreciate all this informal storytelling that goes on, sometimes that's forms of gossip, by the way, is that we make sense of our organizational worlds, through forms of gossip. Often gossip has negative connotations. But it doesn't have to be. Gossip is usually so good that when we're physically in the office, you have to close the door. So think about the formal story is the organizational email that goes out that says, so and so is leaving our nonprofit organization, you know, here's what they're doing next. Please congratulate them. But then the gossip, the informal stories might be us, your colleague, why are they really leaving, right? And you're trying to fill in the gaps or find the alternative aspects of the story to make meaning in the world. So what this says to me is that we really have to as a sector, we've got to not only appreciate but really increase our awareness of not only the formal stories, you know, which might be, you know, only kind of positive stories that might fall kind of into testimonial territory. But what are all these informal stories that really are stories as dialogue, right, and not just the the monologue aspect. So these stories kind of coexist within the work. And often we don't realize that. So part of my work is kind of on the quest with both research and application and teaching to really increase within our sector. Really, what I would call narrative intelligence, is really being aware of all of these factors at play, it's much more complex than I think meets the I initially,

Okay, one, I need to have coffee with you for like eight hours and just dig into your mind, john, and understand how you have so accurately captured human experience in the way that that story is threaded in that way. And I am just loving this conversation. And to john, I think I need to go rewrite, we're for good story brand, and how we're showing up. This is giving me so many great ideas, I hope our listeners are getting as much out of it too.

And part of it is thinking about it perhaps in as an ecosystem. So think about what an ecosystem is, in other aspects a real ecosystem, right? So many different ecosystems, desert, jungle, tundra, so on and so forth. And then there are so many different animals within an ecosystem, big animals, small animals, insects, plants, and they all when functioning properly, they coexist. Well think about that analogy as it relates to our nonprofit organizations and stories is that, again, you have these formal organizational stories that go on the website, especially that go into the donor appeals. But we have all these informal stories that are also happening, perhaps behind closed doors within the organization. So so often with our work, we look externally with stories, but we also need to look internally, not just that external change that we're going for, but what might be some internal change that we need to be doing within our organizations? I know it can sound a little bit, you know, not tactical or not applied, but it very much is, if you think about kind of the more, you know, bigger picture about this, start to dial up your senses, as you're working, you know, with colleagues in your organization, what are those stories that are being talked about, about the present of the nonprofit about the future, because stories start to manifest then into actions start to influence our beliefs that then go into other forms of action internally, within the progression of the organization? endlessly fascinating to me, there's so many layers and levels here.

Yeah, you're taking this to a layer that I have never honestly considered. I know we've had other conversations where we're saying what are the internal narratives that are driving our scarcity mindsets and those types of things. And I just think putting this all together on the table like this is something we all need to spend time assessing. And I wonder if you could take it to the even more applied example to help us understand of how does that translate have these internal stories and the external stories all kind of converging to create this narrative?

I recently worked with IBM, obviously big blue, the iconic company all over the world, and they came Georgetown, really saying very, you know, kind of rough idea. They were doing a new kind of Corporate Social Responsibility employee engagement program that was part of their service pour. So really thinking about the, their amazing employees, and how can they contribute, you know, their expertise and service minds and hearts, in service to other organizations and individuals and things like that. So it was really about bringing the values of IBM to life. And so they came to Georgetown, and to me, and they said, Can we do some sort of educational program linked to this, and it absolutely was an opportunity to really put what I just talked about into practice, is really thinking about these values of the organization, and linking them to the story level, but doing it both externally, as well as internally, too. So think about, of course, all of the tremendous changes that we've seen in society in the world, just within the past year and a half, with COVID, with racial injustice with Black Lives Matter, so many different issues. And so what we created was a custom program, it was a certificate in collaborative storytelling, for social impact. Where these IBM ORS, I ended up teaching 150, IBM errs from around the world was such an amazing opportunity to put this into practice. And so what they used as this lens of story was better understanding themselves, but better understanding their service and value right within the company and bringing that to life. So they developed actual stories that spoke to these sorts of things. But it was kind of this feedback loop of here are stories that we can share externally. But the feedback back to it was we now better understand our actual values as a company, and bringing that to life. So some of that was kind of mapping that ecosystem and raising that narrative intelligence, the first assignment that we did, which I would encourage people to do, if you're really painting into this idea and want to take it to a more, you know, tangible tactical level, is do a day a story observation, pick a, you know, 24 hour period of time, and say, I'm really going to dial up my awareness of the stories that are all around me, obviously, in the traditional sense of what's on the news, what's on social media and things like that. But what are people talking to you about? Friends, family colleagues, what are they texting you about? You know, what are those stories that your partners and community members within your organization are telling you, because that really starts to help us understand how our stories influencing us in internally, which then really impacts the influence of stories externally, as well. So that's a lot of my work is, is taking these really kind of bigger ideas, but bringing them down to earth. And so I do a lot of trainings like with Major League Baseball Association, National Park Service, NPR, and kind of putting this into practice and trying to really elevate and create more effective narrative to intelligence. But then also this idea of storytelling organizations,

I mean, just talk about my friend across the podcasting table here, because you know, we work with consulting clients on marketing, fundraising, helping them shape their brand and whatnot. And Becky always starts with story, which is really natural to her. And it is amazing to me, what comes to life, when you ask people at all level of the organization, we're not just talking to the top brass, because they think one thing that someone that's a volunteer outside of the organization thinks, but those are the words, those are the visuals. That's the understanding that creates this ecosystem. I've seen it play out. And truly, you get so much more buy in at the end of the day when you can talk about your findings. And people hear the words that they're saying, and see the visual in this kind of mosaic that you've created by using everybody's words.

That's fine. I'm hiding under the table. But what I want to say about what I think is so brilliant about what you're preaching here is that this goes back to your five tenets with this IBM example is proof positive of how this works. When you ask people to start the self work, understanding themselves first than understanding how they bring value to the company. To me, the story lifts from the bottom up, and that is the power because we're getting their words, their point of view, we're getting their emotion, we're seeing their passion come through and the adjectives that they pick or you know if it's on video where their face and the tone of their voice in the story to me become So much richer. And who wants a story about a CEO, those are a dime a dozen, I want a story about a frontline worker, you know who is doing something feeling something. And I want to like know that lived experience. So I don't want anyone to miss that this is such a great exercise. Because it's this is content curation at its finest in my opinion. So I'm sorry, I'm off my tangent, but john, you are rocking it.

And, and the rock here is we have to break out those some times of narratives prison, and actually the five or six essential building blocks that I gave. So yes, those are good ingredients. But back to this internal and informal storytelling that intersects and interacts in a storytelling ecosystem within organizations is we don't always have to adhere to those building blocks. So you know, one of the the new research studies that I'm currently doing, and so I don't have all the findings and insights just yet, but I'm looking at the role of stories and storytelling in founder led nonprofit organizations. And I know that you've had a lot of founders on past shows. And so really, the premise of this study is what is unique about founder led nonprofits, you know, some of which is often the case is that the sheer will and experiences of that founder, and the passion is what led them to have this audacious vision, and sheer willpower, perhaps, to create an organization around it, because it's based on those personal experiences. And therefore it comes to life in story format. But the other way in which to think about this, is do they have too much influence as the organization matures, is do their stories have too much influence over the organization, so that the followers, the employees, the other stakeholders, do not get their own stories into creating that story of the future of that nonprofit organization together? So part of what I'm doing with this study in the data collection, is I'm doing in depth interviews with the founder, leader, but also followers, and also looking at stories on the website. But the third source of data is observation of team meetings, and listening as a silent observer to how they conduct that meeting. And what are these informal stories that probably don't align with those building blocks that I mentioned, but are actually stories at the same time? And how do they interact? So some of the things that I'm already seeing as the as this research is unfolding, is that there's almost organizational mythology, or they're creating stories together as founder, leader and follower for example, I'm looking at this one organization that focuses on hunger and they all know what they call the frozen chicken story. And so I asked what is the frozen chicken story and I of course was not there so I can't exactly repeat it. But when I asked them what is the meaning of the frozen chicken story, they all agree that it's taking a risk like they had this opportunity to get all of these frozen chickens I guess from this closed down plant and they didn't really have anywhere to store them but they took the risk that they would figure it out. And so it really becomes this kind of go to where they all take the meaning away from the story that take risks we'll figure it out we can be these risk takers within the organization so that story becomes a go to when they say a future opportunities as they're charting this future together in their founder led nonprofit. We got to remember the frozen chickens

and what a visual I know that turns john off as a vegetarian but what you will not forget I think of a client of ours one of their core tenets is we we have Moxie and we love taking risks, but they don't say we are take risks. They say we love running with scissors, you know, which is going against the grain and all of a sudden I think of that visual rather than Oh, then there's somebody that embrace risk. Brilliant.

Okay, john wheeled this topic we could go on for days. And I know neither one of us can't go to eight season podcast on this. But there's one more topic I really want to dive into with you because I think your thinking on this is so progressive, and is at the moment that we're all kind of feeling right now. And that's this embracing the blur. You know, it's the idea of self. I think if I'm understanding your vision of it, please clarify. But it's no more just self preservation of this nonprofit. It's trying to eradicate the bigger problems. It's trying to come together, blur the lines and come up with some significant solution. tend to kind of share about your thinking on that.

Yeah, it's, you know, kind of using this, this line or this idea of embracing the blur for good. It's kind of a play on words, right? For good for social good, but for good permanently. And it works on a couple of levels, including, you know, some of which that you mentioned, is kind of the basis of it is that there are so many social problems in the world, right. And so they're so big that it takes many ideas, many sectors, many individuals in which to really create more equality, more justice, more progress on, you name it in terms of the social impact issue at play. So it works absolutely on the intertwinement, embracing the blurb between think about, again, back to hunger, there's a lot of underpinning issues as to why certain individuals in society are hungry, could be linked to racial injustice, it could be linked to economic inequality. And so we've got to embrace the blur and understanding those issues from that perspective. The blur also works on as we think about the social impact sector as a whole. nonprofits, of course, are a key part of that, but they're not the only ones. So we've got to embrace the blurred that it's other organizational types responsibility as well to contribute to social impact and what progress we can have when they work in tandem, or in partnership, collaboration together. Government, obviously socially responsible corporations, Association, social movements, so on and so forth, is that we embrace the blur between organizational types. And then the last is back to the internal right embracing the blur within ourselves. If these are if this is the society that we're living in, it means you're going to be a blurry person, right? combine all these different it's a tall order, I realized, but you've got to combine these different ways of thinking, but also these different traits, skills, behaviors mindset, in order to play a key role in creating that social impact in the world, whatever that means to you. So you know, part of what I'm up to, as well at Georgetown and educating students and working with them, is for them to to embrace that blur for good as they think about their roles. And I'm so privileged to work with students of so many different backgrounds and issue areas and help them explore what does that blur mean to them, no matter what their particular area of focus, I work with students who are in nursing, who are in business, who are, you know, more specifically, and, you know, nonprofit, community work, but they all can play a role within that if they think about kind of this more blurry mindset, it creates a different way in which we think about kind of social impact. I do believe

I am just so in awe of what you're doing. And what you're saying, john, I mean, one, it gives me a ton of hope for our future. Because I think when you teach, you know, a college student, I think about being in college, and it's like you're so enthusiastic, you have so much hustle and drive. Your optimism and idealism is sky high, and you're hitting them in that sweet spot, and you're giving them permission to you know what, it's messy, it doesn't have to be perfect, but dive into that vulnerable, vulnerable space and see what comes out of the lift. And to me, there is at no point in this conversation, where the old ways of corporate speak are going to translate in any way. So if you are communicating in a way that is entirely buttoned up, if you're having to pass things up and down the chain several times and get it reworked and have a ghostwriter that is going to completely disallow this movement from growing around your mission. So love this so much. Thank you, john. And, you know, I don't know that I've ever been more excited in 170 episodes to ask this next question to the resident storyteller, but we ask all of our guests to tell us a story of philanthropy that has touched them personally, you know, the power of story. We always wanted this threaded as a standing question on our podcast because we believe these are the moments that people may remember the most. So give us your color, give us your story and take us to

I've got to give you a maybe a micro example and maybe a more macro example. You know, the micro example has to of course, go back to Jane and she is such an expert of thinking about Getting back to basics in a way. And so much of her outreach is about old fashioned human connections. So obviously more challenging now, you know, during COVID, but 9.9 times out of 10, with her speeches, she always hosts a book signing afterwards, like I mentioned, you know, with how I got introduced to her. And the point is not really to sign books or to sell books, but is to look somebody in the eye, and to make that human connection because it sticks with them. So we love to talk about social media. And that's so terribly important as part of the ecosystem. But let's get back to some of these basics, as we're talking about, how do you break out and actually get people to change or to do that, I think, actually, we're forgetting about some of the original forms of communication and connection. So she's really all about that. And when I was working for her, we would always put a basket there, per her request, which was putting, which was really asking for donations. So you can imagine, you know, not a lot of people are going to rip out $100 bill, you know, or something like that in the moment, because they probably don't have one and put that into the basket. But that wasn't the point. Really, what it was about is give what you can and make that human connection. So I will never forget, it was so many of the young people and who, in particular, who maybe would put $1 in there, right, or a couple of dollars, and that meant the world to them. And that kind of was their world, you know, in a sense, and maybe they saved up that money, or some of them, you know, had a lemonade stand or did a little fundraiser of their own, and they wanted to contribute that. So we can think about philanthropy in very big ways as well as we should. But I think we can't forget more of kind of that micro sort of philanthropy. So that ability of somebody who gives what they can, whatever that means to them, I think is really powerful. And then combine that with that actual human interaction. So I'll never forget the young people in particular, and think about what that sets them up to do in the future as they have that formative experience. Yeah, it's Jane Goodall, I know, but we can adapt this idea in so many other ways. And that really, hopefully sets them on a path for lifelong commitment to social impact. So that's the micro example. But bringing this back to my work as a teacher, as a professor. Students are really what gives me hope, what I am seeing and I work across undergraduate, graduate and executive level, but especially those at the undergraduate level, and it still never ceases to amaze me, I just got back prior to meeting with you from my Jane Goodall hope class where we talk about all of these things. These students do not even use any of the buzzy terms that perhaps we're using. They don't say social impact, you know, they don't say corporate social responsibility. It's so inextricably linked to their ethos that they don't even use specific words perhaps as we are to categorize it. It is just part of who they are. And that really gives me so much hope as a moment in time right now that I truly hope and I do believe is going to carry on to that future is that just infusion of a philanthropic mindset that we can all be part of the solution but we also challenge things that are happening in society right now. So back gives me hope.

I just want to bottle up what you just sit and listen to it back because a couple things don't want to slip by the Jane Goodall who doesn't need any more fans at this point in her life. She just needed more connections she is had the built this global movement chooses to sit down to see the one person that's gonna just impact because she knows what that ripple creates in their life. And I'm just like, what, what can we personalize in our own situations, you know, we always try to automate and I love that Dr. Jane Goodall can go sit. That's right, and give you five seconds and make eye contact. I mean, how powerful and inspirational is that? I've got chills here

I was about to say I mean, John's daughter literally walks down while we're talking and hands. The the little book of Jane Goodall it's like children have these books there. We can socialize these conversations in any point while you're talking. I'm sitting there thinking we give our girls 10 or $20 $1 bills at Christmas time and my daughters are seven and 11. And they they are instructed. Give it to me areas of your passion. And I remember taking my littlest one when she was six to the computer and I said, what is important to you? And she said, animals, and she didn't even say the environment. I don't remember what she said, I think she called it nature. And so we split up her money, and we put these like little crumpled dollar bills with a little letter T, like, wrote a little letter and drew a picture. And we gave like $2 to the Sierra Club, and we gave $3 to our, okay, humane and I think that it can start back at kindergarten at that level with anybody is the point. And I love that you have this class, and you're getting fed by the students. It's just wonderful. And this

is, you know, in the, in the Jain context, sometimes we call this the chain effect. And so look back at my story, you know, of course, knew who Jane Goodall was, but had that brief moment. You know, john, to your point, it wasn't long when I first met her at that book signing, but it planted that seed that I had to act, I had to find what that action was for me. But I know that my story's a little bit extraordinary from that is that I went to go work for Jane Goodall herself. But then that led to becoming a teacher to having a course about Jane Goodall. You know, it's really a ripple effect. So that is kind of the Jain effect. But take that example, and put it within your own setting, and within your own nonprofit. So what is that American Red Cross effect? What is that Sierra Club effect? What does that Humane Society affect? And I really do believe it goes back to storytelling, yes. And also just that human connection, and there's no substitute for spending the time investment in doing just that. So as we think about fancy strategies, and tactics, got to include that human connection piece of it as well. It's, it's, it's the only way as part of that ecosystem.

It's so incredible. Well, that may be your one good thing, or maybe I just want to preempt you and get one last bit of wisdom from our friend here. We ask all of our guests, what's one good thing, it's maybe a piece of advice, or a mantra that you choose to live by? What's something you could offer our community today?

experiment? Try different things. You know, did I have formal, you know, background to to be a teacher to be a professor? No. Was it in the stars? Like I said, because of my mom and my dad? Yes, I think so. But you know, what I'm doing in the classroom is an amount of spirit experimentation. And this absolutely goes back to our work within nonprofits is you've got to experiment. And, you know, spike, just suffice to say, you've got to be willing to take these risks and to fail. I think the other thing that's linked to that is to look to other individuals, other organizations, for just a little bit of inspiration. And one of my pet peeves is that nonprofits are so frequently told, look to corporations, for examples of what they're doing, and try to be a little bit more like them. We've got to flip that, why are corporations not looking to nonprofits? Great. Right, or nonprofits looking to social movements, or vice versa. So so often, even just you know, in strategy building and analysis, as we try to look at the, you know, most organization or topic that's so like us, well, then you end up doing the same thing, and you're not experimenting. So look at what something totally different is doing. And try something new.

so incredibly smart. And I love that the academician says, you know, says it in a very polished way. We call it try stuff, just some stuff,

your last name.

So I just really appreciate this conversation, I got to piggyback one good thing on this because I want something actionable that somebody can do today, if you are really interested in what john has said here, if you are interested in kind of diving into this new narrative. I think the internal storyline is so fascinating, do this. Find five interviews, find five people in your organization, not your CEO, maybe a board member, maybe a volunteer, go look in your database who's been giving to you the longest or the most repetitively. Go get a cup of coffee, ask them two questions. Why do you love us? Why are you sticking around, you know, and maybe it's not just as that as basic, but grab the story and allow someone to bring you in through the lens of why your nonprofit is so incredibly important. JOHN, you are amazing. Thank you for all of this. We're gonna have to replay this a couple times to be able to glean all that That you've given to us. What are ways that people can connect with you on social? Where's Where can we learn about Georgetown's program hook us up?

Yeah. So again, the center that I lead is Georgetown University's Center for Social Impact communication. So take a look at our website, we've got a lot of free resources and also a lot of programs including at the executive level, a certificate in social impact storytelling, social impact branding, a certificate and social impact partnerships, and soon a certificate in social impact consulting, and also community engagement as well. So take a look at our offerings. And feel free to reach out to me on the website, you'll easily find my information. I love to respond to emails, So reach out to me as well and and I'd love to hear what what other people are working on, I get a lot of inspiration and bringing into the classroom and vice versa by hearing what people are up to, as well. So I'd love to hear from people.

JOHN, you're a good human. I am so geeked out on what you've said today. Thank you for challenging us all. And we're gonna be following your work for sure.

My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity to talk to you today really enjoyed it.

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