In Estonia, you can vote online and get your pizza delivered by a robot. So it's not surprising that is Estonia is the country that's putting the E in E education. But full digital integration might not be the only reason schools are so good there. That's why I'm talking to Estonia's ambassador at large for education Bridget Lau so she can give us the secret sauce.
I'm Clara young and I work in the OECD is education and skills Directorate. And Estonia was the top performing European country in Pisa 2018 in reading, math and science, but funnily enough, it doesn't spend so much on education as a lot of other countries. In fact, it spends about 30% less than the OECD average. It's also a pretty fair system. The difference between how students from wealthier backgrounds do on the PISA reading assessment and how more disadvantaged students did really wasn't very big as Estonia reformed its education system 20 years ago, and now it's seeing the results. So thank you for speaking to me, Birgit.
It's pleasure to be here.
I'm going to begin with a first question that I'm quite curious about, mainly because I was quite agonised over heavy school bags. When my children were going to school you have something in Estonia called the E school bag and it's where the most of the textbooks are all the textbooks are in the cloud so kids don't have to be carrying heavy bags around. Could you tell us about that?
So yes, the school bag in Estonia has been in clouds for 10 years, but it started as a step by step so the school back now is fully but at the beginning, we added materials little by little. And the challenge started with the fact that the book publishing houses 10 years ago made workbooks materials they used at schools only available on paper based format. So we were aware that teachers won't adopt the digital change immediately. Also the students because the skills are not present. If the skills are they're not really equal. So we have a good agreement with the private sector who is the provider of study materials here in Estonia. That little by little we add to debate based materials, also a digital format, but now we have a dual system. So yes, you can have your E schoolbag and you can have it everywhere in the world. But if you want to remain with the paper based materials, you can carry your real school back as well. Or you can combine if it's if it's your vision and if teachers are fine with that. So yes, with additional digital steps, we provide alternatives and to be honest, it was one of the wisest choices if we look back from the times of COVID. So it really helped to move the move online with learning and teaching.
Yeah, Estonia was particularly well prepared for the remote schooling your use of software in in education goes all the way back to even kindergarten. You have quite quite extensive kindergarten software. Can you could you talk about that and also how you develop that with your education technologists. We're quite interested in knowing how you work together to develop platforms for learning.
Yes , I have to say that all the content that the platforms and edtech tools are provided by the private sector. So it starts with very strong cooperation and also trust and also sharing expectations from public sector side what what are the weaknesses and where we need the private sector input. The second key point what you also mentioned is the presence of educational technologist. Those are not teachers. I would say those are the health aides are helpers of the teachers to step into the world of digitalization. They helped you create the content they helped with the tools to help with the solutions. And again, it's very good background support also to kindergarten teachers and primary teachers
but are they are they teachers?
No, they're not the good people by profession, but it's an sort of like a master level course they have to follow for two years in the university and after that, they can they can become also education technologists. Sometimes they are teachers as well. But sometimes they're from completely different backgrounds who made the career change and want to start their profession in the field of technology. So very diverse background, but definitely the prerequisite is to have a previous bachelor education about the tools used. Yes, the first tool in kindergarten was actually a learning management system, which is aimed to diminish the administrative burden of teachers and kindergarten management but also do the work as a communication tool between the parents and kindergarten and same for the primary schools. It's the tool to Yes, save teachers time for teaching. It's the tool for parents to actually see how well their children are doing. Are they missing the school? What are the grades? What are their assignments? So for first and foremost itself the transparency though.
That's That's great to hear, because in TELUS 2018 survey results, one of the one of the things that jumps out is that teachers are much more effective when they can spend more time in the classroom actually teaching and not dealing with administrative. So in Estonia, I guess the administrative burden is much, much lighter.
Yes, I think in overall society, we have a quite flat structure and 99% of public services are online. So it's sort of like a custom to use online solutions and also for education, because indeed, you have this opportunity to enter or print that information in once and it's actually getting everywhere, starting from the statistics from assignments, the subjects everything so it really helps teachers to save time, in times where teacher professional teaching profession is is stretched to fit in the 35 hours of teaching in Estonia, but actually they spend the average 60. So yes, any tools that could ease the burden are highly welcome here.
Another interesting thing is that Estonian schoolchildren, but then also then obviously teachers spend less time in the classroom compared to other OECD countries. That's quite an interesting finding, considering how well Estonia is doing.
Yeah, we have one of the shortest school years and quite generous school holiday system. So yes, two and a half months are free in summer. And then in addition, we have four holidays. So this is quite a lot, but I think it's the same. So we have agreed on a national level with the national curriculum, what are the most important subjects and how many hours have to be spent on teaching them but there's also quite significant flexibility left to the schools to decide how they will meet any demands and study outcomes describing a national curriculum, what methods they use, what materials they use, and also what are the Additional Voluntary subjects to be introduced in the school curriculum. So every school within its autonomy has found it's just the most efficient way at the school days, not longer than seven, eight hours, but then again, you will meet all the criteria that is written down in the national curriculum.
One thing now that we're schools are shifting back or even entirely back in some countries to physical teaching in the classroom. I think that there is a rethink about how much time you just the distribution of of learning between being in school physically and then the work that students do at home. What's Estonia's thinking on that? And from what we've learned during the pandemic.
We have done quite some surveys on the well being and satisfaction of the hybrid learning. We call it hybrid learning because not necessarily at home you have to spend all the time online you can also learn offline, if you wish. So roughly I would say we had this outcome that 40% were quite happy even happier and the classroom place learning 40 or 35% said that doesn't really make a difference. And then there was a for us quite pico share that said that they are doing actually worse and the statistics prove it. How can we know it? It's the same usage of the online study materials and entering the learning management system. So we could say that or we could see that some didn't really participate at the full extent. Some weren't as far as they used to be compared to the other cohorts from previous years. So again, this online or digital learning tools and materials gave us the assurance and evidence that quite big proportion of students didn't do that well, but I think if we mirror the situation now back to the classroom based learning then it's a different way of learning than it used to be because we are aware of the special needs that the students have on learning same topic, some need different methods, some need different approaches. Some need more guidance, and we are quite aware of those like learning gaps that actually occurred. So lots of additional work is needed to be done by the teachers. So that's we also have financed additional learning support. So there are lots of catching up activities going on, also, but it's based on personnel need, and I would definitely predict that this trend will continue. We won't see this ending aid need for many years now.
So I assume that your analysis of learning gaps was done with learning analytic tools and what were sort of the top what were what were the the most crucial areas where there needs to be catch up.
It's actually a we could say that it's the absence of general competency so self directed learning skills, which is quite evident that younger children are developing self directed learning skills, they're not really 100% Present. So there's online or distance learning where you have to be in charge of your own learning you have to manage your own time is not suitable for younger kids, those who perform better where the children 14 15 Plus, so upper secondary can easily adjust to hybrid learning quite fast. And those who will suffer are those who are starting their journey at school. And also it's the amount of guidance and personal feedback. We are having a very good assessment culture here. So we don't examine the children in a way that they only have like final exams. We have lots of assessment tools that are the level based assessment so they happen every three years and assess the learning outcomes, acquired and also diagnostic tests which are now more and more built into the study materials. So that we can teacher and the student can be assured that the material was adapted or not. So those are needed. And this feedback also creates the personnel learning drag and this personnel support was really, really missed in terms of hybrid learning. And also, I think the grading was a little bit too hard because the comparison with others was lost and what students themselves said that what they miss this interaction with fellow students and possibility to do
it's interesting when you talk about the personal learning because what we've been finding with using AI in teaching and learning is that it could be quite useful in allowing students to work on their own through different levels and that it could be quite effective at seeing Oh, what are some building blocks that students are missing and perhaps a math concept that they are trying to learn and and then giving perhaps more exercises on something just strengthen an area? Do you think Sony will be using a AI in helping certain students close these learning gaps and learn on their own?
Yes, this is the direction we are aiming the first steps for using more AI has been done, but definitely it's a long ways to go. And also there are so many unanswered questions and challenges and risks. But yes, it's something we like to develop together with countries who think about using AI in education.
And are you developing some software with the education technologists now to fill in that gap?
Yes, it's a project we have had been working within. last up to four years. We tried to build sort of like learning backbone we call the personnel learning track, which collects data or exchanges data, despite what kind of edtech solution is used for learning. So it's sort of like a cooperation platform where ethics can plug in exchange information and on from the state perspective, we have a good track of the Lifelong Learning span of the learner. And from this data, of course, I think the sky is only the limit what they can do and what they can predict from there.
Now that naturally leads us to the next question is how is this Sony dealing with the privacy of student data?
Yes, it's the well in Estonia as a member of the use of the GDPR rules are here to be followed. And, of course, our solutions are in line with that. But then again, there are so many different options of IDs that you can use for providing this information. So for education, we also have on a site of national ID we have educational ID. And the core rule is that you you have the key to unlock the information. And you only have the right to sort of share this data with others. So if the person is not willing to do that definitely be collected without the consent. But I think technology can also enable us this opportunity that we don't have to go that personnel in order to have the state state perspective. But if you want the AI to help you then you have to provide this information.
I have a question about how is Estonia as dealing with platforms for learning software and do you have a multiplicity of platforms and are they able to cross reference? Are you or are you building learning software onto existing commercial platforms that are already in wide use by students and teachers?
Well, to be honest, that the cross reference is not fully there. This is where we want to go with building this backbone service from the state perspective. But the big platforms are there as well. I think what is different in Estonia is that almost all Education Solutions, right tech solutions are sort of homegrown, those are local. So far, no bigger players have entered in the market mainly because it's very small. Only about 1.3 million people and a couple of 100,000 students so the market is really small. So that's why
when you mean by big players or meaning by edtech companies
is big at the companies of course the platform providers are there but at most widely use Google Classroom is here. So they use it. Again, if you play fair, sort of include the age restrictions and lots of big things are not really allowed here. So we have to figure out our own solutions. And so far it has we have been successful in a sense. From the school perspective, I could understand that having, I don't know 30 40 d ifferent applications is really confusing. So that's that's why we have sort of a learning management system providers who can organise your your desk for that so everything is actually linked and it's not really difficult anymore. It was difficult a couple of years ago, but now clarity is here.
That's good to hear. One thing I found interesting is that is that well, that Estonia spends less per student than the average in OECD countries, your capital expenditure is one of the highest in the OECD. Can you talk about this?
Yes, education expenditure is something we have been tracking actually quite some time now. I think it reflects that efficiency within a system. But at the same time, for example, we have quite generous system because average number of pupils per teacher is 14. So this is luxurious, but it actually reflects that we have very small group schools and we have very big schools. So the school network is quite big. So more than 500 schools. The efficiency comes from the data which is available and which is sort of like a prerequisite to produce from the school level in order to get funding so if for example, school bunch to have investment in the connectivity, or in technological equipment, they have to do the digital maturity assessment with all the costs involved, so we will have the clear picture on what we invest in what will be the possible benefit. So I would say that having very extensive data on different sectors of edit starting from medication management, the ending up student progress enables us to be very specific, very efficient, and also track down. Basically it's your Euro which goes into the school.
And is it the is the funding come entirely from the Ministry of Education, the central government or you know how, what is the involvement of more local government with you, for example, raising funds and things of that?
Yes, it's actually comes from the central budget to the local government budget was usually adding some some of their own expenditures, and then the distributed to the schools. There are some last lines which have to be present because it depends on for example, the number of students had say, allegations to school books, allegations to food or school lunches, as we say, and allegations do you teach training, for example. So those are sort of like earmark depending on a number of teachers or students and then of course, there's a there was a educational other educational costs we distribute via the local currency, but indeed the local governments they pay extra or this is an extra and what is maybe also important to know that 96% of schools are public. Now the 4% are private. So it's for the student for the parent. It's free public education system, but they have
actually could you talk about integrating non Estonian speakers, your your, your Russian student? Population?
Yes, this hasn't been the back, which is very well known, but since we started participating in Pisa, the growth mainly has come from the fact that we have quite well integrated our Russian speaking youth, meaning that at the beginning, they were year and a half behind from Estonia speaking students and targeting concrete actions. To Russian speaking minority teacher training quality education materials, also, rebuilding the school houses, has played it back also, we have had the 20 years of experience in language immersion programmes, so we could say that the onboarding and understanding of speakers there are other minor languages as well here has been very successful. So the growth has come from from non Estonian speakers catching up with external speakers. And the difference is now almost non existing. So we could well we joke sometimes that we have the best education in Russian in the world. So good thing the language of teaching in Russian.
In our the Russian students integrated into regular classroom do they have their own or they do they tend to be in their own schools or their own classrooms? How does that work?
It's actually the decision of the parents so more and more. Schools are integrated, the classes are integrated because not only we have Russian speaking that you have more and more English or any other language speaking pupils at school, but there are still Russian speaking schools up to the ninth grade and ninth grade language of teaching is only Estonia. So they have to be ready to learn for dinner the studies in Estonia at the age of 15 and systems before that has to make that make sure that slowly they start to have subjects in Estonian so but it's based on language immersion, so it's sort of it works the best way and then the children are mixed and mixed classes. Okay, thank you.
Well, Bridget now, thank you very much for speaking to me. Hi, welcome. And thanks very much for listening to this podcast. I'm Clara Young. To find out more about the OECD is work on education. Check out our Twitter page. Our handle is at OECD. Edu skills.
À lire en complément : About Education System (https://www.educationestonia.org/about-education-system/). Voir en particulier : Digital solutions for school management (https://www.educationestonia.org/infosystems/) et Digital competence: teaching 21st-century skills (https://www.educationestonia.org/digital-competence/).
