The Women Of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway.
Wendy, I got a message on Facebook.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I know. I rarely go on Facebook. If you if you want to get ahold of me or Wendy, I'm talking to you or listener. The best bet is through our website, which is womenofill repute.com. Or you can DM us through Twitter or Instagram. But I digress. I rarely go on Facebook. But I did for whatever reason. And there was a message for me with a man, a troll who took issue with an investigation that I took place in a year ago, with regards to the man I used to work with who had been abusive to his colleagues, you know, the one.
Okay I know who this is? The guy he lost his job. He got lots of money.
He lost his job. And anyway, this troll wrote to me, you ruined a good man's life and I would rather eat shit than give you the time of day.
It sounds like he gives you the time of day.
But he would rather eat shit.
Maybe he will do both. He's like super talented.
I saw the humor in it. But that's just a tiny example of the of the abuse that's heaped on people, especially women online.
Yeah. Well, you know, I spent a few years on television and I had before things were online. So things are have gotten much much worse. But yeah, we now we call them trolls. We just call them stalkers. We still do. I had a lot of them and one of them one of them have a gun. Haha, here I am laughing had a gun.
Had a gun?
Yeah, no, his mother actually called me to say-
His mother. His mother, his mother called you?
Yeah, his mother called me to say, you know, buddy, the, who's has been stalking you, my son he just told me that he went and got a gun and he's, he's he's coming to find you. And I'm like, oh, great. So I called the cops and the cops were like, yeah, well, when you're dead, you know, let us know. I'm exaggerating, but-
But, but this is par for the course. So this is what a lot of people hear this is you chose this job, this is part of the territory. Nobody knows this better than Jody Vance, legendary broadcaster in Vancouver who was harassed beyond measure by a man that she eventually took to court.
Yeah, I went to court to as long story but her guy, her guy, her stalker, her troll. He pled guilty, which is great. But he then he was given a conditional discharge.
I would like to show him some conditional discharge.
Sounds a little rude.
It's just gotten a little rude. I know. There's a lot more to Jody Vance of this. She's the first woman to host a sports show on Canadian television. She was an anchor at Leafs TV, she worked at the CBC. She hosted Breakfast Television in Vancouver.
Yeah. And she now hosts a weekly talk show on Tech TV. I think I think that comes on Thursday, right after Jeopardy. So yeah, and and she does a podcast.
Good lead in.
And collects wedding dresses. If you see Jody on with us right now. She has a collection of wedding dresses.
What's with the wedding dresses?
Hi ladies.
Yeah, let's start with that.
You know, my 15 year old son loves a thrift store. I haven't bought him clothes from a regular clothes store for a couple of years now. I'm not a big thrifter my partner Brian is very much so so that kind of dragged me kicking and screaming into the Value Village world. And I love just digging through now I've become what I used to think I couldn't do and I love to find tool who knew I'm not a girly girl at all. And I found that first one on the rack if you're watching this that one there randomly last winter at the thrift store at the Value Village in Kamloops. And it's this big, beautiful wedding dress. And I thought what's the story behind this? And then I flipped the price tag and it was $60. I didn't. I didn't buy it. Immediately I left and I called my friend texted my friend actually who loves to dress up, Kathy DeVito she loves she's got a tickle trunk clothes. She's fabulous. And I showed her and she's like, I'm in for 50% go get that dress the next day and then there was another one right next to it so I bought both and it's kind of become this, this thing that's growing. It's like what do we do with it? Are we going to are we going to change them up and crafty them up or whatnot and I got to the point where I was like you know what I'm just gonna call local high schools and and see if there's like a Pretty in Pink vibe for any of the students there for their grad and they they want a dress that they could rip apart or paint or add to get crafty with or just wear it as it is because it's rather pretty so I like them.
You know what. That's the only explanation you need, I like 'em.
it's a Value Vil,age, isn't it?
Yes, yes. I graduated from Tarjay, Value Village now.
We were going to talk to you about serious things. But maybe we should talk to you about wedding dresses instead.
Well, we could do both. We can do both.
Wendy the gun part, though. I mean, I know.
But you know what? That guy. I mean, I did call the cops and they didn't quite say let us know when you did. But but they they said, Okay, well, we'll you know, we'll get a, what do they call a stay or some kind of cease and desist? Please see some distance, you know, please don't do it. But if you do, then then we'll have a case. And then we'll do something. But you I don't know. I was telling Maureen that I spent the first few years maybe even decades, sort of thinking that that was just the price of the job. You know, that that? And I didn't do anything. You did something. You, you do this guy he was sending you horrible messages for seven years, wasn't it? And you fought back?
Yeah, yeah. It was a long time. I did. You know, interestingly, when I was in Toronto, and thank you for the lovely introduction, by the way, when I was doing my work at sports net, when I was the first woman on the national desk there with their own show, you know, billboards and, you know, I thought, okay, well, the weird messages I'm getting from some people wasn't really an online thing. It came through regular mail back in 2001. And then, you know, I just kind of went, yeah, I guess that's just part of it. And then I had one of the three stalkers that I had, while in Toronto, all of them were wanting to be with me romanticizing what they saw on television, so it wasn't like, I hate you. The way some things are now, but more so I think we're meant to be together. And sometimes I think that with Brad Pitt, you know, I mean, I think I know him, I don't, but if I saw him, I'd be like Brad hi.
We were meant to be together.
No, but you know, there's a line and it's not even a fine one between-
I wouldn't follow them home. I wouldn't follow them home and one of my stalkers did follow me home one night and get into my house in Toronto, my little attic apartment on Admiral road. Yeah, and that was really scary because they didn't steal anything. They just move stuff around. And then they came back and drop more off the next day, like somebody was trying to scare me. So that was one thing. And I just moved into like a safety deposit box in the sky down on Lakeshore Boulevard that had a concierge I spent spent most of my paycheck on security, thinking, Well, you know, this was years ago. And then when I moved back here to Vancouver, and I feel like I'm in a smaller town here, but I was wrong. But then after breakfast television starting on CKNW, which was super full circle for me. I started in radio in Vancouver at the sister station of NW, and I'm doing talk radio, and I'm just filling in, I don't even have my own show. I'm just the filling gal. And this individual who used his real name off the hop just started coming at me just coming at me and I'm gonna put my little teeny turner here this little grunt, grunter or that you're hearing on.
That's a dog for those of us not watching.
My friend's little mini to our story. This this man who I didn't even name until the court date, where he did enter the guilty plea. I never said his name out loud. So I'm not used to saying Richard Oliver. I am saying his name now. He would send me, ladies, he would send me 15 a day sometimes. At first I would reply to him like, hey, you know, I don't know what I've triggered here. But it started around the time that Donald Trump came down an escalator. And it was just I don't even know, in the back of my mind. And then for years this was happening, I would block him. He'd come back with a new email address, one of which was read in court. Back on March the 10th. When he did enter his guilty plea. I never in my life thought I would hear Jody swallows well@gmail.com said publicly. But that's the type of email addresses that he was coming up with to continue to come at me. But I would block and block and block and block and one time and I'll fast forward through a bunch of this. He mentioned my son in one of the emails he sent me and that was that was the breaker for me. I was like, okay, you know, that's the line and I, I went to the bosses and they're like, Well, what are we going to do? Because we don't know who it is. And then I went to the police and they're like, What are we going to do because we don't know who it is. And I was like, Is anybody going to even try to find out who it is like because there's a lot and when it finally got to detectives, they said can you go in and find out how many emails you might have from this guy like, let's, you know, I'm shortening down two years of banging on the door. But I opened my my trash of my email, and it was absolutely full, absolutely full. And it was just sickening. And that's when they started to really pay attention the sheer volume, you know, he copied me in on a death threat to our provincial health officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry copied me in on it, and mentioned me and and it was just like, okay, what is broken here?
We can talk about, you know, the whole court process and justice and your fight and how, but um, I guess I'm really struck by you talking about your son because I think you had a kid later, like, I had a kid later and an only kid and they meet a lot and and it was reading about the same thing that I had to go through with not the guy with a gun that was another guy who was odd, and sent me all kinds of intimidating things. But I had to take a picture to my daughter's grade school, I had to show her the picture of the guy and say, if ever you see someone that looks like this, be careful. And you did that. You did that with your son.
I did. I did. Uh, my my boy is, like you say, I mean, it's something special, you wait till later, I had multiple losses on my way to having a child, I always thought I'd have lots. I had an IVF baby, I have a miracle and I'm very grateful for him and I've just, I'm not overly protective, but I'm definitely a mama bear when it comes to like, don't come from my son, I will, I will change the world to come back at you. And he, he I protected him from the fear of it because it was basically from him being seven years old to 15. That window, that precious window of time that this man stole from me. And that I was fearful for my son's well being the entire time and I'm a working mum. And for a bit of that I was a single working mom, some of what we get comes with what we do. And when Richard Oliver mentioned my son, and I had a photograph of him from his Facebook page that Jesse Miller for mediated reality and integral part of my story, he helped me identify and really pin down who Richard Oliver is where he lives, what he does his wife and three children and the whole story behind him, I took the picture of him to my son's then high school, he went into high school at the age of 12, because he's a late baby. So 12 years old, going into a big high school in a pandemic, I'm walking in there with a picture of this guy. It was incredible, it still makes me feel a little lightheaded to say that all in a row, we're fine, we're fine. But I also had to take it to his best friends to the moms and say, just so you know, this is what's happening, my neighbors who would love to tag that they were my neighbors and then tag where we lived, I had to go to them and say, please stop doing that I needed to stop without being able to really explain what was happening because I didn't know that there would be an end. And I think that's a big part of the harassment piece is you feel like you're stuck in it. And there's really no way out of it other than to just protect yourself. You know, you're on the 911 emergency call list. Thank you? I mean.
Okay, so how do you feel right now? So you've got you this was a criminal case, and you're launching a civil suit? How do you feel like the guys out there? Have you heard from him since?
No, he'll go to jail if he does. If he comes anywhere near me. That's part of the deal.
Yeah. So we I've had my share of some of them are stalkers who love you. And some of them are trolls who hate you, but maybe they love you. It's whatever. But one thing that I was taught early on, when this started happening was do not engage, do not engage. I had one boss of who was a terrible boss in so many ways. He said, let me handle it. And he started a conversation with this one guy who was on my case, and the guy couldn't have been happier. He's got somebody. He's got somebody who's close to me who wants to, you know, talk them out of it. And it just made it worse. And it creates a to help not only for women, but it's mostly women who get this because we're told not to engage in our very live our lives or our family's lives are being compromised. And we're not supposed to do anything.
I believe that that's flawed in 2023, to not engage, I think identifying who's doing it and holding them to account and that is going to require a change to our criminal code on a federal level. That's what I'm fighting for now. I'm not afraid of him. I looked at him in court when I read my victim impact statement. I basically in the last line said, I'm not afraid of you. You want what I have And you can't have it, I'm keeping it. And that is my ability to do what I want in this life and he was making my life smaller with every threat, right. And as soon as, as soon as I said it all out loud the amount of support from YouTube from, you know, colleagues from across the country from people internationally, my DMs flooded with people who are suffering at the hands of harassers, right? I want my my court case will never be fixed, I can't fix it, the Crown shrunk seven years down to six months, I can't fix that they created an agreement of a conditional discharge without ever at being a part of my plan. In all of my I'm going to see this through I promised him early days when I did engage with him, I did engage with him. And I said, If you don't stop, I will see you in court. And he was like, good luck with that. And I thought, those are my favorite words. When you say good luck with that, I'm coming to do that. I'm going to do it.
The Women Of Ill Repute
It's making me think of Laura Payne, who is the head of the largest one of the largest unions in Canada and we said, so what issue matters most to you? And she said, well, as a former journalist, what's happening to journalists and all the trolls and and why aren't I it was interesting to hear you talk about more in your your bosses saying, don't engage. And she was saying, no, what needs to happen is that the the bosses, the employers, the companies need to actually get involved and fight. And so I think a few years ago, and I don't know whether it was because of it just become so much worse online, and so much worse with, you know, particularly women of color being attacked, that there's been, there has been a change, has or not, I don't know whether I mean, I'm not in the business anymore. But I'd like to think that that now, employers are getting involved.
I actually have a meeting with Lana coming up that was just put together at the convention that Canadian journalists, journalists convention here in Vancouver, and we're going to have a conversation about it. I've also met with the BC Attorney General Nikki Sharma about this and the want to find a way to not only have swift and meaningful consequences for those who do harass others in all walks, but in particular, those in journalism scientists, whether it be physicians, or now climate scientists, meteorologists are being attacked now because of weather. Are you kidding me? This needs to stop, right. So I talked to Niki Sharma
and she said, you know, like, what kind of change and I said, Listen, I don't want everybody to go to jail. I don't even want to cancel Richard Oliver. I've never posted a photo of him. I don't want everybody coming after him. That's not what I want. I want him to be counseled, not canceled. I want people who would harass like this, to understand the error of their ways. And the best way to do that is not to send them to jail, in my opinion, or put them through the legal system. Because let me tell you, that did cost Richard Oliver a hell of a lot of money, he had ended up hiring one of the most powerful defense attorneys that he could get his hands on. And that's not cheap. But I would prefer if if, let's say one of you had somebody come after you like, I'd rather eat shit guy. And you say, Hey, listen, stop that. And he goes, No. And you go, okay, identify that guy. We now know him the cops can figure out who it is. Because if that guy was coming after a politician, they know immediately who they are. So you can figure out who it is. Oh, no, he used his name. Right? So but even if he wasn't anonymous, somebody could find them. Right? And you you have a mechanism and activation that's like, okay, you've been flagged as though you have a parking ticket, a speeding ticket, a DUI or whatever, you do it once, 200 bucks, do it twice, it's 1000 bucks, you do it three times, it's $10,000. And it's associated with your driver's license. This is a choice to attack another person I want. That's what I'm putting out there. And somebody came up to me and goes, where's that happening? Like, what country? Is that happening? And I think it's a great idea. I want to take it to Ottawa. I'm like, I it's just an idea. I don't know enough to know. But I don't know enough to know what I don't know.
There's that argument though, that you are in fact, I think it's brilliant. And to me, it's clear, but other people will argue if justifiably that it's murky territory, because it's also mean this guy has a right to say that to me.
But you also have the right for it to stop once you say stop. That should be enough its consent. Its consent. You want to say stuff, say it that way. Do not say it at me anymore. Do not say it about me or about my family. You know targeting me is not okay, this is not normal. That's my that's my battle cry.
Well, is it unfortunately It is normal. I mean, you talked about, about how, I guess that this started to take off at the same time as Trump was starting to say like some of the things that your stalker said to you are, like said by people in positions of authority in the United States. It's like attacking women is it's just, it's everywhere now. So like, how-
But it may be normal, meaning that it happens, but it's not acceptable.
No, but how do I get I don't know what what is going on? Like how you say that you're astounded, but what what the hell is going on? Like, why? Why has it become so crazy? Is it because it's online? Like I had a couple that were really really scary and a whole bunch of others that were less so? But it seems like with online hate, it just seems to be going overboard now.
I wish I had the multimillion dollar answer to to why. But from my position, it feels like there's a slice of society and certainly not all of society, but a slice of society that feels it's okay to openly say what they don't like. I don't like a strong woman with an opinion and a platform. I don't like it. She belongs fill in the blank barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. You know, you know making sure my martinis poured at the end of the night like they're living in the madmen years or they're feeling the power control slip away. Because women are women are not stopping moving forward. Look at us. This is us that there was a time where women have a quote unquote, certain age would be told to go sit down and you know, and just fade away. And we're finding that now, in fact, prime time is the best time and we feel less encumbered by what others might think of us. And some particularly men don't like it and you add a layer of being bipoc woman, oh my god, like what I see my sister's getting hit with. I'm standing beside them arm's length going no, I'm fighting like, I'm ripping off I'm burning bras. My mom was doing that. You know, I'm fighting for Mary Tyler Moore wearing pants on TV.
Oh my god, shocking, shocking, right.
But make sure you rip off your bra before you burn it as it was the other way around.
Right, that would hurt, that would hurt.
That would hurt a lot. But Jody you are no stranger to this because you had the temerity, the gall the guts to get into sports and now I mean there are and I use this sort of pejoratively. There are beautiful babes all over this sport stations but and most of them are for whatever reason, but you were the first one of the you were the first woman to host a primetime sports show in this country. If Canada is defined by nothing else, we are defined by our sports you dared to enter that church. Well, you know, where we've never had any women priests, she used the religious analogy and so you have probably encountered far more resistance than then even Wendy and I have in our in our male dominance.
Yeah so tell us all your secrets.
Well, I'll tell you this, and it might shock you because I I came into it very much the librarian, as opposed to the sexy sportscaster and there's nothing wrong with being a sexy sportscaster, by the way, but I was more girl next door. I just love the sports daughter of of a coach in high school. every other weekend with dad he was the head of the PE department at Britannia for 32 years. I was coach's daughter. So I knew all the rules. And I loved sports and I have a photo of Jim Robson, the longtime play by play man of the Vancouver Canucks, who is my absolute idol, who I remember being a very small child listening. My older brother had control over the television. So watching the Canucks play, and thinking wow, he's got a really cool job sitting there just talking about hockey. I could do that, you know, was kind of in my headspace and my mum being unbelievable. Never put limitations on anything. So when I said I want to be a sportscaster on TV as a very young child, she was like, okay, but you maybe what you should think about having a little something else just to make sure that you have a paycheck and I was like, okay, so I went to culinary school, to appease mum, but then got into radio again, listening to The Carol Burnett and the Sandy Duncan's and The Mary Tyler Moore is talking about how they got into Sandy Duncan.
I haven't heard her name in ages, but she had one glass I remember that. Yeah. But anyway.
And she talked famously about getting into radio, to get on television. That's what she wanted to do. And I remember hearing that as a young kid and thinking okay, well, that's what I'll do, I'll get into radio. So you know, on that journey, I handed out stickers and shot shopping malls I drove the community cruiser I did the weather I did the traffic, I did the things that they pushed the girls into and while I did that every single person who asked me what do you want to do? I said, I want to be a sportscaster on TV. And three times in my life, decision makers heard me say that, and every opportunity came from saying it out loud. And every time I was offered, I took it. And I did my very best. I tried so hard to be prepared and so once I got into it, to, to your question long way around, I wasn't really noticing that I was the only woman in the room, because I really wanted to be there. And the people that I for the most part that I dealt with internally, were good to me. Scott Moore was a champion. I'm still working with him to this day, he brought me in. Famously, he heard me say out loud, that I wanted to be the first woman on the desk at S3, which was the working title for sports net that he was creating. And he decided in that moment, that I would be and, you know, he brought me out to do fill in and then I did the morning show, but when he moved me to the evening to primetime, it ruffled some feathers of some of the guys because it was all guys in the room, who felt it was their turn next. And I kind of looked at them and said, Listen, if you got a problem with that, you got to talk to the guy that gave me the job because I didn't campaign for this. They're just giving it to me. And they're like, fair enough, fair enough and the viewers were really kind as well. I never really had a problem of I don't like you until I really started giving my opinion on news and current affairs. My opinions on sports people were fine with they kind of felt bad for me because I was a long suffering Canucks fan.
Yeah, you worked for the Leafs.
But even working for the Leafs they knew. I mean, you don't change your allegiance to speak. I reported on the Leafs, I love the team. I got to know all the players, I really rooted for them unless Vancouver was in involved and then I would move for the Canucks and it was kind of fun. Like George Stroumboulopoulos loving is Habs. He came on leaves TV all the time to talk about Lou Blonko Rouge, you know, it's fun.
So now there's all these women, there's like women everywhere in radio and TV and sports and yet there's all this backlash so you're still fighting that. So I think that's what we should call this series there with you this this episode, we should call the fighter because you're still fighting, which is kind of cool.
Well, you're helping you're helping both of you are helping right now by amplifying the message of this is not normal. It's not okay, we need to fight for change together. And I believe that we will leave things better for the next wave of women who are coming in, they'll come in with an expectation that they will be protected in this way that at least they won't be criminally harassed, they're going to take some heat media is swimming with sharks. If it was easy, everyone would do it because it's so fun. Why wouldn't you do it? But when it's bad, it's so bad, as we all know.
Do you Wendy, I was gonna say, do you really think there's still a lot of backlash against women and television in general?
No, I just mean, the online stuff. You know, I think the you know, women are common the greasy pole, not just at CBC, but everywhere. And it's great. And there's women foreign correspondents. And there's women in Ottawa, and there's women, there's women everywhere and regular women on the sports desk, you were the first in sports and that's great. And I think it's it's amazing to see all that progress, but I don't it's it sort of comes back to what you were talking about Jody is that some people don't like it. They don't like women having opinions they don't like so it's and it's not just it's not just some people, it's like they they ruined a chunk of your life and your kid's life is not not acceptable. And so, I think that it's great that you're fighting this and that we have to do something about it. I think it's amazing.
We're gonna run out of time. But before we do I want to say hello to you from a mutual friend, Paul Hendrick.
Oh, Henny.
I know, I know. He's married to a dear, well, he's a dear friend, but I mean, I've known him since he was in college, which was a long time ago. But he asked me and this is in keeping like I'm I'm I have sports mad sons, particularly my eldest, but I'm not a particularly sporty person. You know, I jump on the bandwagon whenever there's a pennant involved. So that's Paul asked me a few years ago if I would consider auditioning to be the PA announcer at the ACC for the Leafs and I did. I auditioned it was the coolest thing I've ever done. So you have to go in and sit there and you basically introduce the player and your voice is echoing throughout the arena and I I, you know, I got most of the pronunciations correct. I did not get the job. But it was one of those things where you know what you get an opportunity like that, like I was already on radio and television. But how cool would it be to be a PA announcer for the Leafs?
How cool indeed.
And so yeah, I just thought I would share that with you and and pass on Henny's regards because he thinks the world of you as does you know, the country?
I don't believe the Leafs will win.
Yeah, but she wants to Canucks to win and at this point, no Canadian team is on the roster. For the next-
I would have gotten I would have gotten behind any Canadian team. Let's be clear. Again. They got to do that. And I will tell you this secret about Paul Hendrick and you can probably find it online. I'm responsible for fixing his haircut.
Oh, really? Thank you.
Yeah. We did a segment on Leafs TV, where I brought in my fabulous Toronto stylist who I missed so much Olga Kkya. She came in and and Jeff O'Neill, O-Gog and I basically basically shamed me into getting a haircut. And he's kept it.
How bad was it?
Gosh, it was it was? Yeah, it was much better afterwards.
Yeah it was very Kerry Fraser Yeah. You know, the famous rep in hockey who didn't wear a helmet. He was grandfathered into. He had like the perfect cloth. And had he kind of had that. So he messed it up and made it spiky. And he's he's gone with it. I love it. I love my Henny.
Oh, yeah. He still has he's one of the funniest, sweetest, his wife Alicia. I'm sure you've met his dear friend, wonderful people. We know. It's amazing that our paths have not crossed before this.
Let's change that.
Well, we think we changed it today.
I'm not a big sports fan, but I feel like I know you somehow and I seem to have met Maureen. So it's, yeah. Yeah. All the best to you. And thank you for thank you for the fight. And I'm sorry that it costs so much. Screm em'.
Yeah screw em'. We're behind you all the way as I know, you'd be-
I'll keep you posted on the civil suit.
Okay, you do that. You do that? Jody Vance. Good luck with everything.
Thank you ladies.
Thank you. Bye.
Yeah, well, I think it's really important. And, like you, I was told by bosses at the time, do not engage, engage, just use something that you're, you're famous and you're out there and you're pretty so therefore, you know, people are going to have crushes but it's way more than that. And it's I don't think that people should have to put up with it. And it's much, much worse these days.
All I heard was that I'm pretty.
I used to be it used to be pretty.
You still are, you still are but that's no excuse for people to give you. I don't know, do not engage thing. Before we go. I do want to just address that a little further. I think in many cases it is good advice. If it's just somebody you know who's looking for a fight, don't give them what they're looking for. And they will more often than not go away. If they don't go away then you absolutely should be encouraged to pursue it. But if it's-
That opens a huge can of worms and a big and a big debate.
The guy who said He'd rather eat shit bon apetit, my friend.
He can chew gum and-
Women Of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley, with the help from the team at the Sound Off Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.
