Sure, yeah. So I don't know if I would necessarily call it like a darker side. But I would say that there developed a kind of specific epistemological orientation around ecology in China. So ecology is often thought about as the same everywhere a kind of Universalist science aimed at an objective truth. And I'm pushing back against this kind of conception of kind of an apolitical Universalist ecology in this book. So one of the things that I'm aiming to do in the book is to provincial allies ecology, in a sense, often people consider ecology as a kind of science emanating from the West it has a particular kind of Leopold in lineage, at least within the US imaginary But in the book, I traced a different lineage of thinkers that come from China that come from East Asia, whose reasoned argumentation, they different kinds of foundations for ecological thought. And that's a specific logics of ecology they produced shape relationships of power between the state and society in different forms of social inequality. One of the predominant features of ecological thought in China is what I what I call or referred to, in the book as a mechanistic approach to nature of a mechanistic approach, simply put, is the understanding that if the appropriate application of science and technological intervention is applied, then desired outcomes will result in the kind of predictable machine like fashion. And with this understanding the role of scientists, planners in the state are really front and center. Scientists imagined that if they can just gather enough data and get the models, right, and the planners can get the planning right, then they'll be able to produce the kind of optimal relationship between humans and nature. And then the state, of course, is the enforcer of this technoscientific vision. These logics of socio natural optimization shape different scientific practices and State Society relationships within China. So what do I mean by that? Let me just highlight three different kinds of ways in which these logics come to matter. And that I discussed a little bit more in more detail in the book. One is technoscientific control of nature in society. The second is large scale interventions in land management. And the third is participation level of participation by everyday people in these practices. So one practice stemming from an mechanistic understanding of ecology is an attempt to techno scientifically control nature and society. In China, for instance, virtually everything is modeled, you've got economic growth models, population models, models of carrying capacity, and other different types of socio natural relationships are all modeled. Vast stores of data are input into these models, and they become part of state plans to manage society to manage nature, and to manage space. These models also shaped efforts to control human interactions with the landscape. So where can people live? Where can agricultural production take place? Where can industry take place, etc. These are all things essentially engineered by the state in an effort to optimize socio natural relationships. So second, another way this understanding of ecology is shaped environmental governance in China is through large scale interventions in nature. So China's really famous for these large scale environmental interventions. You can think of projects like the Three Gorges Dam, for instance, this huge infrastructure project. And you can take a look at the cover of my book, ecological states, if you've got a link, either in the, in the in the podcast or on the website, you take a look at the cover. And the cover shows this human made waterfall, essentially the largest in Asia, made by redirecting the headwaters of the three parallel rivers in Northwest Yunnan. And they redirected the flow of this river to flow right through the heart of the city of conveying the idea here, and scientists and planners explained to me in interviews, is that redirecting the river would accelerate the rate of flow through Lake Dam in the south of the city, and help alleviate eutrophication. At the same time, it creates a kind of beautiful landscape with an urban park surrounded by new commercial housing. So this is an instance of large scale intervention in nature that serves multiple ends, it aims to optimize biophysical relationships in nature, as well as landscape aesthetics. Another really important large scale intervention that I discussed in the book is what's called ecological redlining. It sounds like really good in Chinese. And then in English, people often think about the history of redlining. And it sounds a little bit suspect. So this is a key state policy, initially, and to zone 20%, of national territory for conservation. So that's really a lot of land really large scale intervention. So when I started to research for the book, this figure was at 20%, of national lab. And just last month, the Ministry of Environment and ecology, announced that they increased the sum total of lab to be included in ecological rendering to 30% of national territory. So again, this is a huge amount of land that we're talking about in the state increase this year, of course, to align with the new global biodiversity framework. So the scale of intervention and land management continues to go up and keeping track of this figure is an ongoing process. And I would really characterize this as one of if not the largest area based conservation project in history. And part of what I detail in the book gets how this conservation zoning facilitates what I call ecological territorialization. That is processes by which local state actors, territory alized land, in the name of sociol natural optimization. So there's really an alignment here of state power, and ecology. So the third and the last thing that I want to stress here is that there's generally a lack of meaningful social participation in conservation within the China context. Everyday people in their history of land use, particularly gruel people, as I write about in Chapter Two are often left out of decision making in favor of these models and projections by scientists for optimizing land use, again, an effort to optimize socio natural relationships. And this often precipitates various forms of social injustice and social inequality, such as land dispossession, and displacement. And I detail a lot of this in the book, including some of the history of how these logics of ecological thought came into be.