This is Preble Hall. Welcome to Preble Hall, a podcast about naval history from the United States Naval Academy museum and Annapolis.
Hey, listeners, we're back from our summer hiatus. I'm Abby Mullen and I'm delighted to be one of the new hosts of Preble Hall. I thought that for my first show, I'd introduce you all to the person who helped to shepherd me through my graduate work at Northeastern University. And that's really helped to transform me into a naval historian. I sat down with him a few weeks ago. Would you introduce yourself however you like?
Sure.
I'm Bill Fowler. And I'm a distinguished professor emeritus at Northeastern University, where for many years, I taught early American history with a very special interest in maritime history, and history of Boston.
So you've written a lot of books over your career?
Well, if you if you if you live long enough, and have enough time, and enough good friends supporting you, and a university to support you, you can write books. And I did that. And it's one of the great joys of my life. And I am not done yet.
So what are you working on right now?
Well, right now, I'm working on George Washington, in the years between the end of the American Revolution 1783. And the moment when he becomes president and 1789. It's kind of not the last two years, but there is a most biographers just kind of skim over. I'm fascinated by these years. And he deserves a close examination, he was at the center of almost everything during this time. So I find it fascinating. So that's what I'm working on now. And hopefully, I'll be done shortly and get the book off to the publisher, they'll look at it and send it back to me, all the corrections, additions and editorial notions that need to be taken. But that's the fun of writing. It's the fun of going back and forth with very good people.
So I wonder if you could just talk for a minute about what it's like to be a naval historian or maritime historian, and why it's important.
Well, firstly, I want to tell you what a delight it was to have you as a student, I'm very proud to have you. Thank you for inviting me. Being a naval maritime history is to me an intriguing adventure. And I say that because through the lens through the prism of the sea, and men, women who went to sea, there are so many things you can look at. There are the people how they behaved, you know, Herman Melville once described a frigate that he was on as an open box. And he's right, it's a big open box into which the lives of hundreds of people, hundreds of people crowded together. So that alone, that is the examination of the lives of these hundreds of people within his open box. That's fascinating to me. And then you have the machine itself, a sailing vessel, what an extraordinary accomplishment. You know, we've had power at sea for what, a couple 100 years, maybe, maybe not even really that long before that it was all by sail by wind and by hand. And so for most of human history on the sea, we've been propelled by the wind. So I'm fascinated by how is the ships operated. So that's important. And then of course, by its very nature, maritime naval history is international. That is what it's all about. It's about connecting with other people in other places. So then you introduce politics, you want to do diplomacy, you want to do swore you want to do is victory, defeat, you can even examine disease, a very good friend of mine. The league with st is a wonderful physician, spent considerable time examining the health of crew, which was a fascinating study. So my point is that naval, the maritime history is so broad, so expansive, that allows you to poke into all of these little corners, and try to ferret out the information and tell the narrative. I must also say, it comes from a personal interest. And I think, frankly, most good history, you have to have a personal interest, you have to really have a passion to want to know. Now, I didn't realize this when I started in this profession, but as I look back upon it, I see a trend you know, patents appear retrospectively. I'm in New England, and you can't live in New women without understanding the impact of the sea. I married a wonderful woman with whom I'm still married all these many, many years, who came from Gloucester and her grandfather was a sailmaker in Gloucester, her great uncle's was score captains fishing captains out of Gloucester. My grandfather worked in the fish pier in Boston, my uncle's my father were at sea during World War Two. Well, all that is to say that in retrospect, gee, I guess I did have some inkling about this. Then I went off to graduate school in the Midwest to the University of Notre Dame a great place. I had a wonderful, wonderful time they have, but it was, you know, in the Midwest. And as I was in the Midwest, I began to think more and more about New England and the sea. And at Notre Dame I had the wonderful opportunity to work with a very fine scholar, very fine teacher. Marshall Smelser was his name. And Smelser actually wrote a book called Congress Founds the Navy. So he was a naval historian out there in the Midwest. Well, I fell under his tutelage. And he guided me. And that sort of began my interest in this. And I did my dissertation on a man from Rhode Island. His name was William Ellery, who was more or less well, I called him the lord of Admiralty sort of ran the Navy during the revolution. And that continued my interest. And then I was so fortunate to get a job back in Boston. Well, back in Boston, really American historian, what am I going to do? I'm going to teach the history of Boston. Teach history of Boston, you're teaching history of the sea, its maritime history, its naval history. This is where the USS Constitution was built. It's your home port. So it all kind of proceeded very, very naturally. And with this passion, this fundamental very personal interest that I have in the sea, and people who have gone to sea, and its so many, many ramifications. So that's a long answer to a your question, which is simply to say, I kind of love it.
Well, that is reason enough. So you have been at Northeastern for a while, but you've also been in various and sundry other places that connect to the sea into the Navy. So I wonder if you could just take us through where you've been?
Where have I been? Well, I've been to many places, some of which I don't really wish to talk about, I suppose.
Well, you don't have to. [laughter]
Well, one of my great good fortunes was to for many years in the summertime, to teach in a maritime seminar seminar at Mystic Seaport, wonderful, wonderful opportunity, and an opportunity to work with very fine colleagues, among them Ben Labaree, and Ted Sloan, both very accomplished maritime historians. there at the museum I was surrounded, surrounded by artifacts and curators and editors, it was a magnificent one, it was such a rich, rich experience. And I still continue my contact and connections to mystic sequence, I'm very grateful to them, also had an opportunity, come summer times to teach it to Mount Vernon, about George Washington, not quite so much about the sea. But there I am, right back in, in early America. And then for a period of time, I left the academic world. And for seven years, I was the director of the Massachusetts Historical Society. And that was, again, an extraordinary experience there, I had the opportunity to work with a magnificent group of men and women, archivists, curators, editors and historians, I also had the opportunity to meet some of these countries, some of the world's great historians who would come to use these resources. So I grew to, I went from being a consumer that is as an academic consuming information, I went to being a supplier at the massive store. So I was in the supply business, which taught me a great deal. It was such a wonderful to see the other side of this historical enterprise. But then I missed teaching Frankly, I missed the classroom, I miss students. And so I left the historical side, and went back to the university and taught there for a few years, which I found just just delightful. my years at Northeastern nearly 50 years at Northeastern, were nothing but enjoyable every morning. and enjoyable again, because the university gave me the great, great privilege to teach what I wanted to teach, and what I love to teach, and they gave me the time and the resources to write so what more can I ask? And they gave me as they gave me, you, Abby, some very fine students.
So you've written about a wide variety of naval and maritime topics within, you know, the 19th century mostly, or I guess, the 18th century as well. But one of the books that really propelled me into being even more interested in the Navy was Jack Tars and Commodores. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you came to write that book? And how that book has had an impact?
That's a very good question. You know, prior to that, I had written a book about the American Navy revolution. And then I went off, I went off and did a book about John Hancock. But somehow the sea always drew me back. And I realized I had ended my first book on naval in 1783. And I thought to myself, Gee, I wonder what happened after that, again, personal interests personally. So I began my inquiry and one of the great things about naval history and you certainly appreciate this Abby, as very fine naval historian, is the rich resources available. These men from women, but mostly men of his time, wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote, and the government kept records the government kept, the government kept records. So you have these voluminous, these voluminous volumes today, not when I was writing, but today, of course, a bunch of this has been digitized. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful opportunity to get young sauce. So here I was. Well, I was very curious now. So what happens when 1783? And shall we say at first I thought I'd go there, maybe 1812. And so I began the inquiry, I began to talk to publishers. And the publisher said, Why are you stopping in 1812? why not go to 1815? Okay, fine. So I then had my parameters roughly 1783 to 1815. And I began my exploration digging into the sources. Oh, it was delightful. My gosh, some of those guys, they were such rascals. I mean, when you when you read some of these letters, are the official letters, of course, that that are rather prosaic in so many ways than the one across some that are just absolutely outrageous, you know. And then the Commodore Morris, Commodore, by the an interesting man, takes his wife on board this ship into the Mediterranean, and behind his back, the sail is referred to as the Commodoress. So you know, you don't like the characters. But yes, many of them are rascals. But also, what struck me about these men? Is that how much they were in charge. You know, once you sailed out of Boston, the past race point, the end of Cape Cod, and you were at sea, there was no one to tell you what to do. There was no radio, there were no instant display none, none of that none of that. Once at sea, these men, these commanders were on their own. They had to make incredible decisions and later be called to account either, you know, applauded for them, I'll call them account. So that struck me as truly impressive. And I think that when you study the lives of these men and their ships, it's easy to be critical. And sometimes the criticism is well deserved. But one has to keep that in mind that these women are under extraordinary stress. And you have a crew of three 400 men down below. Not always the nicest guys in the world. Okay. These See, says some problems. And so it was to me an incredible laboratory again, back of Melville's Oaken box, an incredible, incredible place. We have all these men crowded together, trying to get along and sometimes not getting along, they kept on on a Commodore after this, what for the ship was a spacious accommodations. So that's what intrigued me about you. So it was the jack times the men, the foremost hands, as they would say, in the merchant brain. And the Congo is jack the offices in the after deck, and how they be, and so dangerous was they battle pirates, of course, in the conventional sense, the Quasi-War, which they fought against the French, never a real war down there in the Caribbean. And of course, then the Barbary corsairs, and I say corsairs because I want to be careful about that. I think that historically, they were not pirates. Pirates operate outside of the law. These Barbary corsairs were operating with inside they want to be sure but with inside the law, so they're not putting up pirates, the Barbary corsairs.
Thank you for that clarification that is very near and dear to my heart that we do not call them pirates.
It really just distresses me when I hear that because they were not. They were, they were servants of a national government. That's what they did. So I found all this intriguing. Of course, in the Mediterranean, you have the complications with the with the Italian city states, which are around there. And you'll again, I'd mentioned the Danish consul view. All of this is just intrigued. It's a wonderful story. And then the American diplomats themselves the consuls who are going to say strange, that's probably not fair, but certainly their own, who, again, just like the naval commanders had to operate on their own, whatever instruction they had were probably six months old the day they received them, and the world had changed. So that's what strikes me one of the things that how much these men were on their own making their own decisions, sometimes often the right decisions by the way, I think they should be admired for that. Occasionally the wrong decision but nonetheless they will on their own
you're speaking my language here is I'm that's exactly. It's clear that we have worked well together. Do you have a favorite rascal? Do you have a favorite Early American naval officer?
Well, I could give you of course the conventional answer to that would be I suspect, and which would be Bobby many people's answer that'd be John Paul Jones. And he does stand out as what is certainly one of the greatest command is combat certainly a Combat Command A bit of a rascal of course as you probably know, because early in his career as a career so much shrouded own it took a bit of mystery. We're not quite sure what brought him to to the American colonies on the eve of the revolution, but there was something in his past. And then of course, is his overriding ego and ambition. Oh my god. Just one anecdote. Have Jones will always wants a bigger ship always wants a bigger ship always wants a bigger Yeah, so the Congress and the the board of ama just really to get rid of them. rinkeby just really the original sends him up to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, he takes command of the Ranger, which he then sails to European waters and passive engagements. He had to be sure, but range is not big enough for me that he wants a bigger ship. So he goes to France to visit with Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin Franklin had a a high character fall. And that character fog was a Benjamin Franklin was unable to add the word no. to almost every request that he received, he would either say yes, maybe you're I'll see to it. And so Jones comes in again, you can imagine these two men, two extraordinary figures, and Georgia saying I want to bigger ships here. And Franklin says I'll see to it I'll see what I can do. And Franco does of course, the story always gets him his old French merchant man, the Duke the dross, which is, I guess he's on the verge of sinking, I don't know she's not in very good shape. And we fitzer except then Jones takes her course renames on the grand romantically bought home reshard in on Benjamin Franklin. So in any case, not to repeat the story, which I think is is well known sailing around too flamboyant. But Jones is such a character. He is such a character and such an egocentric guy. And then of course, just to finish the story. Paul Joseph and his is equally dramatic. Because they work for the Zarina Katherine in Russia in the Black Sea. Wow. He's a sailor of fortune, comes back dies and parison is buried in a Protestant cemetery. kind of gotten until because Teddy Roosevelt comes President Teddy Roosevelt, a great proponent proponent of naval power, so he decides and then the Roosevelt words from the American minister and parents to Mr. President, I'm paraphrasing gave with the Mr. President, we've found a body of john paul Jones, what do we do? And of course, Roosevelt says, bring him home. So they bring him home, and they bury him there in the crypt of the Naval Academy in great splendor you, anyone who's been to the Naval Academy? I can't think I know, aside from Grant's tomb, I can't think of any other Americans buried such Clint. So john paul, john, long answer to your question. And one that is pretty conventional, I have to admit, yeah, it's got to be john paul Jones.
So you have written about non naval history as well maritime history. Most recently, I think you can correct me if I'm wrong, is your book about the Cunard Line or about the steam esteem Titans. So I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit and how, how you came to that. And what was fun about writing that book?
How I came to that was I for the last 30 years, in addition to teaching and the other things that we're talking about, I work on cruise ships. I've done more than 150 cruises. In all parts of the Atlantic, North Atlantic, South Atlantic and Mediterranean, never quite got to the Pacific, my favorite ship, the Queen Mary too, and sailing on the Queen Mary to perhaps some some of the listeners of silver beuter along the aisles along the corridors of the Queen Mary to numerous historical exhibits. And those historical exhibits reflect the history of the church, not mine. So walking, the card is walking the halls there, the Queen Mary true, I became fascinated with the history of the canavalia. And that's what began getting personal interest. And that's what began my interest. As I began to explore more about the konad line, I saw the American connection. The American connection was a man named Edward Knight Collins. And so I saw them appearing now in the narrative and the documents that I was looking through this contest between the United States and Great Britain for dominance really on the North Atlantic steamship dominance on enough Atlantic, and the two epic figures in this way, Edward Knight Collins, the American, the owner of the Collins line, and of course, Samuel cannot, cannot learn and I wrote about these two Titans, the Titans battling battling for control of the North Atlantic, in the end Godwin's and konad wins. Actually, for a rather simple reason, the British the backing of the British government dominance at sea was essential to the British government. So they were willing to back tonight back rather generously. And the United States dominance at sea in the mid 19th century, and certainly after the Civil War, was of minor importance. So the American government gave little very little support to cause so it was a matter of the British government supporting but it's a facet. And also I was curious, very curious about the technology. I'm not much of a technology guy and but once I finished the book on the steam Titans didn't know any further because I really don't understand all that machinery. But here was the new technology, the new technology called steam, called steam, and those who recognized what was coming and those who did not left behind. So I found that interesting. And this contest, Lou pool in New York, lots of lots of strange lots of little threads in this narrative that I found intriguing. So that was why, but it began, again, with a personal interest. It began by sailing on the Queen Mary to and looking at those historic panels on the halls, Queen Mary to that's what prompted me to do greater inquiry.
So aside from personal interests, I know that one of the classes you taught a lot in northeastern and is related to other classes that you taught at Northeastern is a class called America and the sea. Why do you think it is important for students or for people more generally, to understand the history of America's relationship to the sea, whether that's through naval power, or through more commercial or environmental
reps, in the early part of our history, during the colonial period in the early part of the republics, and so the 19th century, it was the sea that was our barrier. It's a moat, between us and the rest of the world. The sea was also a highway, it was a highway that brought good people back and forth, the Atlantic and to some degree in the Pacific. It was also the place which millions of Americans went for their living as seafarers, naval offices, merchant offices, fishermen. So the sea has been a dominant influence in our history, very much a dominant influence. It is somewhat ironic, I think, in today's world, that we have a very powerful host, we should have a very powerful Navy that defends our interests abroad. And quite frankly, a week, Richard Murray, which is exactly the reverse of what it was in the early 19th century, in the early 19th century, the American marine was one of the largest in the world, not as large as the British To be sure, but it's one of the largest in the world. And our Navy was the smallest of any major power in the world. And gradually, over time, 19th century as America turn to the west, and other ventures, you know, conquering the frontier industrialization, urbanization, in great measure, we, as a nation, turned our back on the sea. That is certainly in the merchant marine. And even to some degree in the Navy, we turned our back on the Navy to in the middle of the 19th century. It wasn't until the latter part of the 19th century into the 20th century, when we became a world power, that we realized that necessity of a powerful Navy, which we did build in which we do have today, but at the same time as a suggestion, kind of in an ironic twist, while the navy blue one powerful and Richard green, of course, go smaller and smaller. I haven't looked at the most recent statistics, but my memory tells me that if you listed all the Merchant Marines in the world today, the early 21st century, we're probably down around number 19, or 20, somewhere around that. That is not to say, and I add this very quickly, that there are many, many ships out there owned by American corporations. That is certainly true. Carnival Corporation is a classic example. But they fly foreign flags. So that's sort of the the role I think that the sea has played, it still plays a very critical role. Good heavens. Have we not seen in the last year or so with the COVID? How many ships Alliance anchor off? The Port of Los Angeles? Is your What is your Christmas tree going to arrive on time? What about the clothes that you are buying that are made in Japan are made in China? All of the goods that we consume are how am I camera? Certainly What about a Heineken beer? It's all coming by ship. So while Americans may not recognize it, we still are very much a sea dependent nation. We're an island, a very big island to be sure. We are an island.
When you approach the teaching of America and the sea or other classes like it, how do you convince students that it's worth knowing about the early history of America's relationship with the sea?
I think one of the one of the things as an historian that you need to convey to your students is that we stand on the shoulders of all of those who came before us. I used to be intrigued, I would begin often begin my classes, my history classes, asking students if they wish there was no compulsion hit. Everyone in the class who was born in another country, please raise your hand might be one or two not not to me. Then I asked about their parents. More hands up in the air. Then that's probably grandparents more hands up in here. Then that's what the grandparents in my hand hoping you. That's when he realized I would hope that they realize that they have it because someone else came before And so that's sort of the beginning, you know, that we should know about these people who came before. Because were the result of wherever they happen to have done, whether it was good, bad, where they came from somewhere else, whether they were Native Americans, even Native Americans 1000s 1000s of years ago, gave themselves. So it's a continuity, it's a connection, somehow, you have to let the students understand that they are connected to the past, the past is not a foreign country. It's a place we can explore and understand. And by exploring the past, we can come to a better appreciation of the present. I'm not saying that history repeats itself, that's just too, too much of a cliche, but it certainly doesn't form it. And it certainly does echo. And so I think by understanding, first trying to get that personal connection, that person, and then extending that personal connection to a broader sense of who we are, why we're here, and to get a context, it gives us context in our lives, we, you know, we weren't just plopped down here some time ago, and then we'll go and go away, you know, there wasn't before there'll be an after. So what's that context that I tried to have my students appreciate, come to grips with, in a personal sense.
So one of the things that I remember from being your TA, is your tours of the Boston area, and walking tours. So what do you see as the value of taking students to places that matter for maritime history? And also, how do you teach maritime history on the land?
Because we need to, we need to engage the senses. You know, in a classroom, you're limited with a classroom, your windows and you know, it's a it's a prison of sorts, it's a prisoner to get outside. Well, let's talk about the fishing industry. What's going on the fishermen smell the fish. Let's talk about the maritime trade a bottle of water, the ducks what was here before they were going aquariums he was in we're going to put them now this was central, what do they do at Central what what's going on the long walk union walk, what's going on with the Coast Guard Base, let's go visit the Constitution. You see, you hear you smell, you know, just reading reading is a one dimensional kind of activity, which was all the time to be sure. I read documents, but I wanted my students to get outside and see things to experience it. And here's the thing that would always give me great joy. Oh, 12345 years later, six years, seven years later, this happened to me quite often, I'd be walking through the streets of Washington, often dude, and behind me to be a voice. And the voice would say, professor would think Oh, God, I hope I gave her a good grade. And then this person would say to me, you know, my parents came to visit around call to my husband or whatever was came to me. And you know, I took them to see what you do. Remember you took us to fanueil Hall? Do you remember you took us to Paul Revere house? Do you remember you took us down to what to see central one. And that would be the great joy. They returned they they returned. Students need to get out of the classroom, we need to see we need to smell we need to hear that's one of the great joys about reading maritime history. Of course, even though I write mostly from documents to be sure. Now I love to go to see not that as a passenger in the Queen Mary George like sailing with Christopher Columbus. Oh, no, no, we're not suggesting that. But it is important to see the land from the sea. We see we spend our lives from the land looking to the sea. You know, it's a good idea to go to see look at the land.
Well, thank you so much for talking to me. This has been fantastic. It's lovely. It's my pleasure,
Abby, it's a great joy to see you. I had a great joy to knowing how well you're doing and I take all the credit heavy I take all the credit you should.
Trouble Hall is in no way intended to reflect the official positions of the Department of the Navy or the Naval Academy.
