Pop Culture Soft Drinks podcast 12 Feb 2024: The Fat Duck with Melania Bellesini

4:38PM Feb 11, 2024

Speakers:

Kat Brown

Helen O'Hara

Melania Bellesini

Keywords:

drink

flavour

find

pairing

soft drinks

wine

people

dish

food

menu

incredible

create

work

coffee

fat

duck

melania

today

started

favourite

Welcome to pop culture, the podcast that brings soft drinks to the top of the menu. I'm Helen O'Hara, film journalist, author and lifelong teetotaler, not with me today is my co host, Kat Brown. And that's because this week, we have been up to something a little different. And as we warned you last time, something that may make you hate us forever. So I'm really sorry about that. If so, now this comes from one of the very first things that I talked about with cat when we started talking about this podcast was an experience that we shared in 2019. We were feeling remarkably flush for once, and we took ourselves to the Fat Duck. Now, the Fat Duck, for those of you who don't obsessively follow the lives of chefs, is the restaurant founded by Hasselblad untold in 1995. It was initially a fairly traditional French bistro. But as Blumenthal got more and more interested in the science of food, and how and why we cook, things became a bit more experimental and most famously, a bit more playful. So this is the restaurant, where they give you a giant conch shell, for example, that plays sounds of the sea while you eat a seafood dish. Or they give you a gold watch that dissolves into a soup for a sort of Alice in Wonderland inspired moment. It's really cool. It's really clever. It's really tasty. And it's one of the top restaurants in the world. Now, I'm not just laying all of this out to wax lyrical about posh food and a wonderful time that we once had. The reason that this is all relevant to pop culture, is that when we went in 2019, cat, and I discovered that the Fat Duck also does a soft drinks flight. So that's a series of soft drink pairings for all of these elaborate courses of their food. And when we started work on this podcast, they were there for top of our list of people we wanted to talk to. And by them, I mean, in particular head, smelly, Melania Bella Seanie and her team, because we wanted to know how they put these pairings together, we got in touch with them. And they very kindly invited us to have the full food and drink experience, which was extraordinarily generous of them. But what was mind blowing for us was learning from Melania herself about how much effort and expertise goes into each of these soft drinks. This is not just a matter of choosing the right juice or finding the right d alcohol iced wine for each course. This is a whole new kind of drinks science, I think. And something that has certainly inspired me and I think is going to hopefully inspire all of you listening to try mixing new things and trying new ways of matching your soft drinks to your food as we go through this podcast. So we hope that you will indulge us with his rather unusual episode, which we recorded at our table with Melania herself. Hence there's a bit of background noise. So yeah, with no further ado, The Fat Duck.

Helen, I can't believe that I am saying this. And nor yet that I'm actually conscious to be able to say this because I'm so full of delicious food. But we are at The Fat Duck with Melania Bella Zini head smelly at The Fat Duck. Thank you so much for being with us today. How long have you been working at The Fat Duck?

Well, first of all, thank you so much for coming is an honour and a pleasure to have you here. And to show you what we are doing and what do we believe I have been here for almost 13 years. Even though I can't believe myself. And it has been an amazing experience for me. From the first day until now. And many more you help. Yeah.

You started off hoping to become a fashion designer. I understand when you were a teenager up in northern Italy. How did your path lead you to wine and drinks? Well,

yes, you're right. Actually, my dream was to design beautiful clothes. And then I ended up to follow the path of tourism in the hospitality school. Very close to my house where is a full of tourism because it's a beautiful area in the garden. And then from there. Through my school, I won one competition. At the time. I was 16 years old. I was not even drinking wine. And yeah, how to surprise I won the competition and I got the the ICS course that is equivalent of sommelier study. And then I just love the world of wine and drinks and what's the relationship with between them the products that we can enjoy, but also the story the past Should and then the tradition of the people that I meet through my career. Yeah. So in the wine world. So

since coming to The Fat Duck, I mean, you, you've been telling a good way best. I'll be honest, we've just been talking the whole way through lunch and we're just noise sort of synthesising some of that conversation for you all, but you were telling us that you kind of worked your way up. You were kind of Storyteller here, which is the sort of waitress waiter level. Yep. And then, during the smelly 18? And I mean, when in your journey did you become aware of, you know, a push to do more for soft drinks, and to really kind of experiment more and see what more you could do.

So the Fat Duck, it has been always a beautiful experience in terms of food. And as well, I was very lucky. When I came to work with the amazing some years at that they taught me a lot throughout the experience. And in 2018, when I become had some million, I saw with a dry January, that it was a gap in the market of soft. And because we are not in London, people are driving, they're taking obviously, trains, but majority of them they are driving here. Yeah, they were not drinking much water or maybe a softer. And then I took the opportunity to build the experiment experience for these guests. With soft drinks, to give them

an alternative, we have been experimenting with just incredible soft drinks today, you've you've been talking about the kind of blends that you do it. So it's a matter of finding and creating more than finding, I think I maybe correct me if I'm wrong for a wine flight. It's about finding wines that complement the meals. And a lot of cases, what you're doing with the soft drinks, right is to literally create a drink, yes, to match. So how long does that How long, you know, do you have for that process, as

you mentioned, to find the wine, and takes a long, a lot of research throughout the suppliers or producer. And a lot of testing that is quite incredible and makes our profession quite enjoyable as well. But creative. Soft pairing actually is up to us up to our knowledge and up to our creativity, the intuition as well, to combine different drinks, and combined with food that is quite unusual sometimes, but quite comfortable. And the level of our food is incredibly high. So we need to really match the creativity with a taster. It needs to be as as amazing as the food. And it can be quite challenging as well.

It's so interesting thinking about the creativity because Helen and I have come here on our own dime a couple of times before and always been blown away by the foods. And the second time that we came I had the non alcoholic drinks flights. And again, mine just blown there. But for a lot of people who, for example, are driving they might drink alcohol normally there can be a sense of lack with non alcoholic drinks. And what you do so extraordinarily, particularly on the drinks that we've tried today is to not create replacements for wine or anything else but also like genuine alternatives. I've just had the most incredible what felt to me like a sort of non alcoholic Pedro Jimenez Sherry so rich and syrupy and date like and then you reel off all these incredible ingredients that have nothing in them. Could you possibly take us through? Like maybe a couple of the juices and how how on earth you begin with that we had maybe the pomegranate and beetroot juice that we had with our our beef, which I mean started move aside red wine, frankly, that was I mean, where on earth do you begin with something like that?

Well is the idea is to create something that is equally good and complementing the food as a wine does. Obviously we need to find out drinks they're not alcoholic, and sometimes with, for example, the beaten path that you mentioned. For the main course.

I'm figuring I'm figuring my I'm imagining in my mind, okay, what I can drink with his main course what they need to complement these main course and sometimes they are related to the wine that we match. Sometimes we start

To match with wine and then we create the soft pairing, but sometimes we we try to figure out which kind of component the dish has to maybe use the same component and create the liquid version. So, for example, we the main course, we sound for from a wine that we were we are matching Ruaha for example, and we analyse which kind of flavours Ryoko has, and Omar back for example as well another alternative So, we try to recreate analyse the flavour profile that the wine has and find the component that in fruit and vegetable has the same flavour profile. So, in this case the wine can be very red fruits quite deep flavours a spicy old key characteristic and in the drinker non alcoholic we match this characteristic so beetroot is quite healthy and pomegranate become it has this kind of texture that is quite resembling the tonic characteristic of the red wine. So give this kind of a feeling of dryness and we had a touch of date syrup that he gives these kinds of velvety and deep flavour and also we added some smoke water to recreate recreate the bulky flavours of the wine and then some drop off bitters as well to give the spiciness that we can find in the wine while the opposite side is creating a drink from a flavour profile of our dish. So for example, as I said the better method for the sweet drinker so we mentioned with the Black Forest the total that is mainly chocolate and cherry

that was an intense chocolate and cherry treats. It

really was it really so

we tried to liquefied the flavour profile of the dish. And to do so, we just figured out what we can take as an ingredient for a drink and make it quite similar on the same balance of sweetness and acidity you know to match with the food. In this case, we are the metallography juicer, a cherry syrup and cocoa nibs two handfuls i The chocolatey and cherry characteristic but also we add some non alcoholic distillation of different herbs and spices. In this case we use the Lisa America mod that they give this kind of bourbon whiskey characteristic as well. This

is the first time that I tried the Lyle's that I tried it in the wild, so to speak, having heard like volumes about it from friends, including friends who who still drink booze over the years and we had an amazing iteration of it earlier in the bouvardia A probably does that have a full name? Or is it just the

streetwise will

that you would actually created for another tasting menu previously? Can you talk us through the string because well and then I think I'll just let Helen loose on it because she's never been more excited about anything in her life. It is my favourite thing in the world ever. Thank you. Well, I suppose Bulevar actually was a creation that we created for oldish that we had in the journey menu like the previous menu that we had after Melbourne.

So the day she was about a walk in the hood and it was a kind of mushroomy her the that umami flavours with a lot of herbs touch off a Barkat style of starch as well. And it was very dark and very mushroom. So we want to have something that a combine the smokiness and the healthiness of this dish but also bring some bright and acidity because it was quite intense. So we came up with the idea to have an old fashioned style that we didn't have in the wine, drinks. He was just completely different. And because of the time at least American mould it was a brand new drink that we received. We just find a good balance with the wildlife that is an amazing no no colic distillation of the different herbs and the two component component they have a very different almost almost opposite flavours. So, while the food is much more sour, very floral has this kind of hibiscus and as low Berry, they give us this kind of texture by dry and quite a nice acidity while American mould that is has this kind of bourbon smoky, but on the palate is very soft and no acidity but a lot of spiciness as well almost peppery. And then we combine the two together but all obviously what I always research on our non alcoholic is the third dimension that is a texture and the the longevity in your mouth. And then we added some maple syrup, and a little touch of syrup or made with a patch of white butter that is sorry, white pincher that is a type of pepper from Cameroon.

It is I mean it is amazing in a lot of love a lot of ways. Yeah, you can taste it. It is fascinating because I feel like you know for as a non drinker, a lot of those kinds of flavours, especially the smokiness and the okayness are things that I have maybe had in tea. And that's really all that's been kind of available. So it feels like you are in first of all, you're creating a lot on your own. But you also have a lot more to work with. It feels like now in the last few years, lots more different flavours to try lots more different things. And I mean, what's your takeaway is is it about just combining things? Is it about trying new things, experimenting, putting things together?

Well, when I started in 2018, to combine ideas of creating soft pairing for people that they were not having alcohol for our experience the options were very limited. So we were doing hottie we were creating our juices in house because we had availability of juices that were either too sweeter or quite blind. Not much options. And then that he actually we discovered one of the first company that we were creating these distillation nonalcoholic, that was the Sidley. So with the seedlip we start actually to create more, no not colloca options. And we were started to, you know, have fun to see what we can do differently. What was very important for me is to have drinks that they were not sweet, because everything in the market was like either cordial or juicers. And for me, it was very important to have a really balanced for our menu. And then luckily enough, with the time does gaffer has become much more smaller, because many more companies and many more people embrace the the courage or the idea to invest in the non alcoholic drinks. And for me is incredible what nowadays we can find in the market. Very great fun, you know, also to combine a lot of different layers, a lot of different products that allowed us to play and to, you know, create the new things that are very different from what they are. Because combine together is yeah, it's just great fun.

The thing that really blew my mind today is it's something that we've talked a lot about on this show, which is you know, the difference in palette between never has drunk like myself, might with my very unsophisticated, very sweet palate, and cats much more sophisticated, you know, dryer

so too enthusiastic, dry, dry and cool the drink strangled. monogamously

exactly enjoyed all the drinks and we'd like to find that complexity again that those layers again, and and I was worried you would tilt her way if I'm honest, and that it would all be sort of de alkalized wines and things like this. And I thought what's been fascinating today is I feel like we've You've landed directly in the middle between the two of us. I've loved it. But I feel like cat has found so many different layers and so much complexity as well. I basically have

no excuse to drink the same old nonsense that I do at home anymore. Like I said, I think when you when you stop drinking booze, there is a tendency to sort of feel like you're chasing something that's missing. And I think what has been so wonderful about coming back here today, trying the menu, but also with a renewed interest trying the pairings is seeing that actually, you don't have to replace something as well. Sometimes you just need to take a step sideways, and find a completely different way of doing things. I'm also delighted to have tried season which I'd heard a bit about from Helen McGann but this is Ben Branson, who founded seed lips, new cocktail bitters, the 0%. And we've had them across quite a few drinks, it seems, you seem to have found so many amazing ways of adding complexity to, to juices or things that I suppose people just forget that you can be creative with, I suppose what drink on the menu that we've had today is is your favourite?

Oh, well, thank you so much for, for what you said before, for us is very important to create something that is an alternative more than a replacement. And what I really my aim is to have a guest come in here comfortably to say I don't drink alcohol, perfect, we have this for you. And not feeling like that is missing out but is actually can enjoy the same experience but with a different trick. So it's not about having alcohol on not having alcohol is about having an experience. And this for me is the aim. My favourite drink is actually very difficult is all the drinks that we we tried today in there are our creations from mocktail to the old pairing, I'm very pleased that I can collaborate with different producers that you know, I I saw grow in these six years. For example, I have on in my heart a real drinks that we start together basically, we met in in affair in 2017, when I was looking for replacement, or from all four different drinks non alcoholic one. And then I found him and that he was just

the sparkling teas, this dragon Royal Flush amazing.

And he was not at all known. And we start to have him while he's a product in the restaurant, and then they start to bloom. And I'm very excited for what he David did in Holi the success and I'm very pleased that I was yeah, one of the first ones to work with him. So for me is like the achievement of seeing people that they are growing and they believe in what they do. And be able to use their products in our restaurant and believe on it because they have the same aim as we do. So is picking and choosing a softer that we that we create is difficult. Yeah,

I suppose actually. It's like asking you to just pick a person. They're also different. You

know what? I? I thought the same. So for me drinks are quite people. Yeah. Because they have their own character. They have their own personality. And you don't want to speak with the same person every day. Yeah, you need to speak with different friends depend on your needs, or your you know, depend on the patient and drink so you don't want to drink the same drink all the time because Yeah.

But I've also been so fascinating talking to you today about the inspiration sometimes for some of these drinks. So we had with a sort of, I'm going to be incredibly reductive and call it a fish chorus but there was the roughish elements involved and seafoam and all sorts of exciting things. And the drink we had with it involve melon and kiwi and just incredibly fresh and glorious flavours. And you started off looking for something that would sort of parallel a Sakhi. Yeah. Which is not I would not have known if you had not told me that I again I haven't tried to Okay, so I don't know what I'm talking about. But what a fascinating place to start from so you're kind of starting from, okay, I want the effect act of this no go yes

correct I'm very passionate about second is one of my love at the moment but I think it will be quite a long love because he's an incredible differently yes and yeah sometimes with with my pairing I tried to achieve and I will not say perfection because it's impossible but closer to it and the enjoyment of the blending because I think pairing especially is an art almost because they need to merge the two thing food and drink and as I mentioned before sometimes I started from the college paying to deconstruct what are the flavour profiles on the pairing on the drink and see why is working with the dish and then recreate these flavour profile with a fruit vegetable or other drink that I come across. Sometimes I research things that are in internet for example and I think oh I need something like that. What can I found? And then sometimes I come across with things that I have noticed it I have no idea what I asked her supplier to Oh can I try? Can you send me a sample and then yeah, I'm curious to see what they are and if they work why not to find something to blend with?

And then also sometimes you find something and then it just needs like a final edits or twiddle if you like which we found very much with the cheese course which was a beautiful tanworth Cheese blended with white chocolate of all things and re formed into a beautiful little cheese with a passion fruit and pickled carrots pickled next to it but that came with a glass of none and oh en from Australia wasn't which is a wine alternative but which you'd added like a little chamomile syrup to it just to actually I can't even because I suppose the original was quite dry wasn't it? What yeah takes you there

noni is one of the newest drink that we discover is actually lending two weeks ago what is very very new and I love the concept and I love that is dry they create these alternative with a very smooth grape juice blended with infused with different herbs and flowers and spices and they create these very dry non alcoholic drinks that is amazing by itself. I'll have as I mentioned is not about the drink itself is about pairing if I think I'm visioning this can be good. If it was a twist it was something else for the dish Yes why not the end to do that obviously I need to sacrifice myself and ask the chef to have the food and he caught it you know first thing and then starting from having the dish with the base of the drink from there I started to twist and when I when I have the tool because in my mind I can picture okay this drink can be good for this course not necessarily is a course that is in the menu at the moment can be like I know the dishes that we have the library that we have is quite immense. And sometimes we rotate the dishes so if I found a drink that can be good for a darker main course for example that we don't have at the moment but it will be in the season in a few months. I might take a note and holder and when the timer will come I will say okay can I have a drink this drink to try it and then merged other flavour profile to adjust it to the to where I want to go. And I did that with the non when I tasted the first time in December. I said wow and they are very interesting. I didn't know that was useful. But when I tried in January the new cheese course I said I need acidity. I need a Florida characteristic to cut through the richness and I need the other shoe different character and then known number three was like the perfect Mmm, combination. But it was so dry that we said okay with a touch of sweetness and a couple mile it can work. So we tried is just trying to narrow and adjusting things.

Has there ever has there ever been a dish that kind of stumped you for a while? Has there ever been something real? I'm not quite sure where to start with this one or is it just, you know, line up a bunch of different drinks and start trial and error. And

there are some sometimes that you have an idea you start with that you think is just a perfect pairing. And then you try both together, and they say, Oh, my gosh, is completely different opposite of what I was thinking. I need to reframe everything, but it's actually a good starting point of start. Because I have, okay, what I was thinking is not working. So I need to work on opposite side now, because they know what doesn't work, and then start to work in a reverse mode. Try to find what it could work. If is to say, well, you okay, I need to have more sweetness. If it's too watery. I need to find something more sick. Yeah. So, yeah. Is, as I mentioned, just a trial and error and have a little bit of imagination. And I don't know, how will, how does it come? But in my mind, I imagine things have a very vision, mind. And sometimes, inspiration happened just because I try something and I said, Oh, okay, can be I love to involve my team. Sometimes I challenged them and said, Okay, we have a new dish coming up, I imagined that they drink that I wanted a similar flavour profile of this. So figure out how to do it. And then they start to, you know, challenge themselves and find things. And then when we try to get there, we just adjust the the recipe or change it. Yeah, there is always a start point. Yeah. thrown around.

And how far do you go for your your drinks? I mean, I know as a smelly, you have to travel quite a lot. You have to go to the vineyards, I guess and talk to the producers. And you've talked to us today about using a lot of smaller producers and having very personal relationships, I guess with a lot of them. So is it a matter of kind of really keeping your eyes open around the world? I guess for a lot of these ingredients. Yeah.

I mean, like, travelling for me is a way to be open minded, and be alert of what's happening in the world and be always informed, informed. informed. Because if we stick in our bubble, people around us evolve, and, and we are still in our bubble. So we are going to be behind. But it's not that the point. The point is, I think sharing the knowledge is a huge benefit that we can do. Especially in hospitality, we have so many great professional people with amazing creativity, and why not to share, you know, sharing is caring the sidebar.

We certainly feel that from today. And actually one of the one of the most touching moments apart from my trousers to my stomach, which I'm extremely aware of was when we were looking through even just the tea and coffee menu at the end, which is borderline encyclopaedic. Just another gorgeous journey in itself. And you said, Well, you know, this is the last memory that people will have of this experience and it needs to be just as impactful just as varied and just as amazing as everything else. Could you tell me a bit about the Well, I suppose the care that you guys take over like your coffee particularly, but I mean, your your teas, it's just all incredible. So

because we give a lot of important, important to all the stage of our journey from the time that people are booked, that we contact them by phone two weeks, or one weekend before they come in until the end of the experience that is stepping out of the restaurant. All the steps that are super important and TN and coffee, if you think for many places, is the not important thing because it's just a cup of tea. Welcome. Have coffee, I'll have it for us it is essential to nail it. Just because it's the last memory that the guests have sitting down at the table. If they have a bad cup of coffee, what they remember Oh amazing experience but the coffee is terrible. Now we want to avoid that. And we have baristas, three baristas, actually, that the roaster green coffee, the source of the green coffee from other parts of the words. And we have a smaller coffee shop, where we kindly allowed us to use the roaster Oh lovely. And every two weeks we are going to roast our green coffee beans. And we are very meticulous and I'm

very shocked to hear this

and very precise to do that. And all the recipes are ours. Yeah, so I have a coffee specifically roaster for Espresso Martini only.

Wow, that's incredible.

We are very very keen to have a kind of very dark coffee quite the strong coffee while Ganesha or other physical coffee or espresso coffee, they have a different ratio of a roast is quite interesting more than it is again a very different word such as a tea or hot chocolate, we are very keen to work with a small producer producer that they care what they do they care of the product, they are sustainable they have you know, they have the same amount of attention of detail that we have here. It is important to have this amount of detail because you can see in the final product you know is t as well, we try to get the best team in the market. Sometimes they have a very limited quantity that finishes the kilo that I had that we have, we have to find another one. So is a constant research a constant looking for you know, new thing because we know that the limitation is quite small.

Thinking about the details as well. We've both been really struck by I mean we're looking at absolutely gorgeous pottery I mean that sort of is rather doing it down really but what we're drinking out of raw teas and coffees, but also we've had gorgeous glassware all the way through it for for the whole sort of non alcoholic drinks flight and Helen always jokes that you sort of half expect to sippy cup as though you're a toddler or something but it's wonderful to have that how important is the glassware wait to that experience

Oh glassware is absolutely important. can change the taste of the drinks that you're drinking. We again are looking to always find the right glassware for our drinks to have the best outcome from it. So the way to the texture, the thickness of the glass. You know the size of the how is in your hand. And also we like to work with a great producer but sometimes as well. Very small producer handmade. We have the drink that we server for the sound of the sick for example. The glassware is coming from Japan. Oh is Sudoku glass and it's colour droplets. And they make by hand on the 100 glasses per day kind of is a very small company but is very high renovate, renovated. And is just incredible. Is it for Junmai again, Joe psyche and there is a lien as Mowlem pinicola would say that is look like a drop of water when there is a liquid inside, which is okay. I noticed that it's astonishing. And we use it for our juice because it's the same glass that we use for soccer. And he's the drink that we serve with some of the same

it is it's astonishing. And yeah, these little sort of, I guess hands row unfortunately. Just so

We have a all day personal porcelain capsule and dishes plates that we use. They're coming from different different parts of Europe and different maker. But we are using a potter who by the name is Erica Kaneko, and she's, she's from London and she has a smaller shop in London, she is absolutely a gifted person, a huge artist and she does a pottery for us. Made by hand and be spoken. Yeah. So is only US has this kind of crockery. So we asked her, she does a what we, what we like, and we, we talk about things a concept, and she knows very well what we do here. She has been working with us for I think, 10 years, kind of since the beginning. And the rest of the plate, they are very important. You know, we work with people from limos. Yeah, we do a lot of research, Catalonia as well, everything,

what's your kind of lead time for drinks and for and for soft drinks? In particular, I'm guessing. I mean, it's, I guess it's a constant research constantly looking for, for new drinks. But you know, when when they come to you, and they say, right, this is our planned venue for next season, like how long do you tend to have to sort of find your pairings and make your parents

is various, actually, sometimes can be a few months that we have, you know, time to look for things sometimes can be days, wow. Because of the lack of quantity. So sometimes we buy things from, you know, suppliers, and suddenly they are running out of stock. And he's not very easy, especially with Brexit, we know everything. It's quite difficult if you're from Europe or from other parts of the world. To get them so we need to be proactive. We know actually the idea of what we want to create and then we just twist it and make it as suitable. Yeah, well the the reason

we had a question on the podcast last week about alcohol and food, and I have very much enjoyed by blackforest Gatto, which had plenty of cash in it and in the accompanying ice cream. Given the care done to non alcoholic drinks options here, how does it work if somebody doesn't want to or can't have alcohol in their food, for example, is

it well our kitchen is amazing parents with you. Even though we have a set menu, we can adjust all the requests you know that we receive is the reason why we contact people after the booking to two weeks or one week before because allowed us to be proactive and create the menu tailor made for them. What I mean, if somebody's gluten free, dairy free, you're vegan, we can adjust to everything we had so many different intolerance or allergies. And we are really serious about that in our foods but also in our drink. So when somebody is gluten free for example, we use some drinks that have gluten inside. So in this case, we add the moment or when we know we just change it the drink and we just create different things with the awfully same flavour profile. Or we just find out what we can do not to ruin the experience but have the same quality, same flavours without the you know, without harming anybody.

Can I ask what do you sort of drink at home? Like what do you do you mix a lot of drinks at home. Do you what do you what do you go for? Do you just literally get home at the end and I just want some water thank

you very very well actually I'm a little bit of the joke of my team. I'm not drinking much. I'm very lightweight. I can I say I'm a cheap person to take on a date. Because really with a couple of glasses of wine I'm I'm more than fine. I was saying, No, I told my viewers do we are drinking a lot of kombucha. We are drinking mainly non alcoholic drinks as well. I found a pomegranate been very amazing with food because he's not too sweet and has a beautiful balance. And I like to, you know, have these kinds of creativity, I would say.

You mentioned an incredible attitude to creativity earlier as regards Kohler particularly, I should have expected that somebody would come to the fat dark and still ask to have a coke with their meal. But even so, you mentioned that you had taken this as a particular challenge before locked down. Can you tell us a bit more about this? Yes.

So quite funny, because I come into the dark and having a coworker, I think is not being judgmental, obviously, everyone can do whatever they want. And we have coke and Diet Coke. But I was thinking, why not to give these people that they are comfortable with coca, because they are drinking, you know, at home or wherever, with a different colour. So my aim was to create a drink that has a similar flavour profile of the Coca Cola, just to make them How do you say, comfortable not to go out from the comfort zone, but in a different way. So a few years ago, in 2017, I went to Ghana, and my husband gave me to try a nut. And it was a collar nut. Very extremely, very bitter. He said don't eat it, just treat. And instead the way apart the bitterness, it was like a colour flavour. Like a Coca Cola Sir, this is incredible. I have the flavour profile of the Coca Cola from a nut is incredible. But they don't well what he said they don't cook it, they don't drink it, they just chew it to carry on the day life to get some energy because he's a highly in caffeine. So I bought a packet a home and be me being curious. And getting some challenges to my team, I said to my team, I would like to use this one and see how we can create something. So again, started with a trial and errors, we find out that cooking, boiling actually for six times the same colour not give six different liquids. And every single liquid has different strengths of bitterness and caffeine and flavour. So we are the end of combining the order batch of cola in a different proportion or reduce it boiling with sugar and they they'd syrup at the time as well with different spices and herbs and make a kind of accordion out of it and blend it with the ginger ale and soda. And actually, it tastes like licorice Cola, all these kinds of very dark flavours and it was delicious. Wow. Unfortunately, with pandemic, a lot of these projects, and because of lack of products, lack of stuff at the moment at the time. So we just parked on our archive. But I think soon we will start to do all this kind of experiment again, ready

for the 30th anniversary next year, of course.

And also we were doing kombucha fermentation in our house. And then we did a big batch before closing in the pandemic. And then during pandemic and nobody use it. We hadn't been the seller for six months. When we came back. It was absolutely gorgeous. Oh, super fermented, very sparkling. And it was amazing. And we were buying tea from Africa from South Africa at the time. And from Portugal from those wonderful Yes.

So what was your what would your advice be to like pick my people at home you know, is it is it about just being curious, trying new things, trying unexpected combinations, trying to deconstruct a meal and You know, see what you can match with that? I mean, how is that really the place to start? Well,

yeah, well, for me being curious is the first step. So if you are curious, do you have an open mind? directly? So try new things. You know, like, sometimes I try things that I don't like, because you never know with age with the time, your palette change as well. So what I did like before, I don't like anymore, and vice versa. So don't just grab something because you know, that you don't like just keep trying. And yeah, I'm at home, be honest with you. There is a lot of in the market now. That can help people to be more adventurous and more creative as what I told him is much easier to find this kind of, you know, liquid liquid, that can be exciting, instead of just water or a soft,

and what soft or non alcoholic drink, would you add into a theoretical Hall of Fame? Do you think

there's anything that I discovered again, in Ghana and that I was not aware before it was like a mould the malt drink? That is very particular not everyone. I tried to introduce it to the restaurant, but my colleagues were not very keen. So I said, okay, it's fine. I'm not going to buy it. But I think you know, I think it's because of my palate. I love umami. And I love you know, even though I'm very sensitive of bitterness, and I love this kind of flavour that they are. Sweet and sour, and, and bitter at the same time. So where umami character gives a little more third dimension of things. I have a very sweet tooth. But strangely enough, I don't like too much sweet drinks. Yes, yes. But I think a touch of sweetness is always is like salt and pepper. It needs to have to hand answer the the flavour profiles. Like we We saw it with none. And a touch of Campbell mild syrup.

And as we've seen with the hot chocolate,

little pinch of salt, exactly wonders, and my bouvardia If I remember correctly, had a bit of malt syrup in it, right? Yeah. So, I mean, I'm all in favour of malt though, that's my favourite.

It's just to find the right balance is like all this stuff, you know. I love to use more natural things. I try to you know, we sugar I know that why sugar is very bad. And we try to reduce it as much as possible. So with the substitution with the darker, darker sugar or coconut blossom, we love to use a coconut blossom in our old fashion drinks for example. Yeah, using date syrup instead of you know, sugar and yeah, these kinds of small tweaks that give more flavours and give more. Yeah, excitement, I think more Oh, yeah. Did I mention three dimensions?

Well, I've certainly had a lot of flavours and a lot of excitement. And I didn't get drunk in the process when when when it was just delightful. So much for having us and for talking us through your absolutely phenomenal non alcoholic drinks flight one afternoon.

Thank you very much for coming in anxiety with me.

It has been brilliant. Thank you. So that was Melania Bella Seanie at The Fat Duck and I hope you're as inspired as I am to try new combination of drinks. And see if you can find something as incredibly delicious as that bill of RDA, which has literally set my head spinning and which I can't stop thinking about on behalf of myself and Kat we want to give a big thanks once again to Melania to her assistant, Jonathan and the rest of her team. And to all the storytellers and chefs at The Fat Duck who could not have been kinder to us or more tolerant of me knocking over not one, but two drinks. I blame all the microphone cables but apologies anyway for that once again, normal and slightly less insufferable service will resume again next week. So if you have a favourite drink or a menu you'd like to us to celebrate or shame, or any burning questions about soft drinks in general or particular, then you can email us at pop culture drinks podcast@gmail.com or an Instagram at pop culture drinks podcast. We've also Got a lovely bookshop, where you can shop our favourite non alcoholic books, including books by our guests and those by us. You just go to bookshop.org and search pop culture a soft drinks podcast. And that is it for this episode do please consider subscribing or leaving a lovely five star review your podcast provider of choice. And in any case, we'll see you back here next week for more soft drinks chat. Everybody, keep drinking